I just came across a YouTube channel that claims to be L Craig Martindale and he says in it that it’s 2023, and talks about Wierwille and “the truth” about the crucifixion not being on Friday. Are you guys aware he’s resurfaced?
Wow. Martindale ruined the Way. Even with its faults it was the best thing available in early 70s. Many of us wouldn’t even be alive Even if drs teachings were plagiarized he did put it all together for us. I left in 1988. Couldn’t take the carnage being wrought by LCM. I CANT understand and never will why dr W picked him. Was he being blackmailed? Or was he just failing in his decision making.
According to vpw, twi was the best thing available in the early 70s. The House of Acts had been doing better, and BG Leonard had taught what vpw ripped off as the pfal classes, and vpw claimed twi was the best thing available. That was despite ripping off Leonard, and despite vpw effectively destroying the House of Acts to co-opt the Christians there to be his recruiting arm. As for "many of us wouldn't even be alive," that's pure vpw propaganda. It was invented by vpw to cause sincere Christians to transfer loyalty from God Almighty to vpw and twi. vpw's extended campaign to subvert worship from God Almighty and Jesus Christ to vpw HIMSELF and twi was so effective that decades later, there as STILL people repeating his phrases like some unthinking parrots. It was sad back then, but somewhat understandable. There's no excuse for it now.[/b]
"Even if drs teachings were plagiarized he did put it all together for us."
Incorrect. vpw said that, but he lied about that like he lied about everything else. vpw took BG Leonard's class and retaught it in its entirety as his first "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" class, and lied and said it was his unique class. He later filled it out to make 3 levels of pfal, which made more money. He plagiarized EW Bullinger for pfal Sessions 5-8 largely, and other times. As for Sessions 9-12, anything that wasn't straight Leonard was straight Stiles- vpw RETYPED JE Stiles' book on the holy spirit and put his own name on it. Later versions of that book and the classes attempted to change the terminology and definitions- more to hide his sources than anything else. As for "putting it all together for us", no. He "put it all together" (plagiarized it all) to have a steady income- tuition for the classes, shoving the tithe down everyone's throat (mandatory reading for pfal), and selling all twi materials at retail prices. EVERYTHING in twi was designed to run at a PROFIT. Want to go spread the Word for twi? Ok, they will tell you where to go. You must get there on your own, you must find housing on your own, you must work to support yourself. Oh, and when applying, you have to pay $200 for the privilege of going out there and providing them all that free labor. All classes ran at a profit. Materials were printed cheaply in-house and sold retail- for a tidy profit. Weekly teachings were available- pay to have weekly tapes delivered to your home (BTW, the tapes they used were the worst quality available- because they were cheaper for twi.) vpw did all that to serve HIMSELF.
"I left in 1988. Couldn’t take the carnage being wrought by LCM."
lcm made an understandable mistake. vpw knew all along that he himself was a FRAUD. He KNEW he had a public persona, a MASK, for the public, and privately was a petty, venal, alcoholic, a plagiarizing rapist, a simonist. So, he knew to keep up the ACT in public, to never let the public see he was a fraud. He pulled the same snow job on lcm- who really believed vpw was something special, "the greatest man of God in 2000 years" rather than just another con man and sinner. So, when lcm had the office, lcm thought that HE was now supernatural, that he'd get Divine Revelation for every fool thought that went through his head. Further, vpw taught lcm to have sex outside of marriage, that he had to "loosen up in that respect if he wanted to serve God's people." vpw KNEW it was wrong and covered his own tracks no matter what he told others - mainly to cover his tracks. lcm really thought extramarital sex in different forms (raping and drugging like vpw did included) was ok with God Almighty- so he did it and saw no need to cover his tracks as if it was both sinful and a felony. So, he got caught.
"I CANT understand and never will why dr W picked him. Was he being blackmailed? Or was he just failing in his decision making."
vpw's PhD came from a degree mill. It was an unaccredited institution. It had no more authority to grant a PhD than Schlotsky's Deli has. But calling him "doctor" was de rigeur. Interesting how he denigrated all the institutions that granted REAL degrees and said they didn't count, but he INSISTED on his "degree" as if it was the equal of theirs, an accredited Doctorate. So, a fake Dr.
Why did the fake Dr pick lcm? To hear vpw himself say it, lcm always just followed his orders and never questioned him. That was vpw's FIRST AND LAST words on the subject. vpw PLANNED it that way, he was NOT being leaned on. Everyone else recommended Walter C. vpw overruled everyone and stuck to his long-term plan and installed lcm. Did he fail in his decision-making? I would say, "Yes" to a great degree. His reasons were unsound, he ignored "a multitude of counselors" which is not "safe", and he gave lcm a completely unrealistic expectation of how the job worked. On paper, lcm should have failed. Add to that the one thing vpw wanted in picking lcm- that vpw could still tell him what to do and lcm would do it- that decision backfired majorly. Now that lcm was in charge, his misinformation that God Almighty kept giving vpw continuous revelation led him to think that every fool thought that went through his head was either Divine Revelation or otherwise endorsed by God Almighty. He had no interest in hearing from vpw anymore, and neither did anyone who had worked directly with vpw, especially the higher-ups who had seen parts of his fake persona slip and had a sense of how unreasonable he was, how difficult he was, how capricious he was, how he wasted everyone's time.
Now that a lot of hidden information has come to light, it's easy to see what happened. Hindsight is 20/20. We were hoodwinked, scammed, fooled. Can we move on from there? Yes, but not if we PREFER the scam to real Christian living.
I was asking for "extremely informative" examples from the Martindale teachings.
Take a number. Here's one. 1463. There are 1462 unanswered questions ahead of yours.
=======
Truth is not afraid of being questioned.
Hate is born of fear.
victor and LCM hated being questioned. When I say hated, I mean they HATED being questioned. Just listen to the tapes or read the transcripts. The accuracy of the evidence of their fear fits like a...
This and the next 4 installments are the hottest Bible I've heard in many years.
Many gaps in my knowledge were filled in; many old questions answered.
Ok I tried once again to listen to the incredible forehead.
I got as far into the teaching as him going on about God making a way to escape with the temptation and how you should be getting warnings from God ahead of time to avoid the trap.
Im not surprised. Unless one really can get honest about a lot of things I wouldnt expect anyone to change. Its all he knows to do...same with other offshoots.
I listened to the first few minutes. I was surprised at how calm he sounded. No rant!! (yet) However, full of praise for the achievements of the great doctor W. I wondered who he was trying to impress. Maybe he was appealing to the nostalgia of his "followers" for a bygone VPW era.
I listened to the first few minutes. I was surprised at how calm he sounded. No rant!! (yet) However, full of praise for the achievements of the great doctor W. I wondered who he was trying to impress. Maybe he was appealing to the nostalgia of his "followers" for a bygone VPW era.
No thanks. Not for me.
Good observation, that seems to be the survival move of the day. Just when followers wake up to how inept and callous TWI leaders really are they come through with resurrected classes and a shopping cart full of nostalgic wierwille adulation. Seems to work.
I sampled a few of his lectures -- so much quoting of victor paul wierwille, so many "Huh?" moments.
It almost seems like he's making up this bullshonta off the cuff, as he's holding forth. But I know the bullshonta is meticulously invented, calculated.
Well, it's established: you really can't go beyond what you are taught.
I sampled a few of his lectures -- so much quoting of victor paul wierwille, so many "Huh?" moments.
It almost seems like he's making up this bullshonta off the cuff, as he's holding forth. But I know the bullshonta is meticulously invented, calculated.
Well, it's established: you really can't go beyond what you are taught.
I disagree with your conclusion as a blanket statement. For many, in practice, it seems to apply. Not to me, however. And it doesn't have to apply to anyone else who doesn't want it to.
I disagree with your conclusion as a blanket statement. For many, in practice, it seems to apply. Not to me, however. And it doesn't have to apply to anyone else who doesn't want it to.
Well, it’s sarcasm, parody.
It’s not my conclusion. It’s victor’s. And, demonstrably, Loy hasn’t gone beyond what victor taught.
This idea of victor’s is absurd, and I have never agreed with it. It has been discussed elsewhere in the forum. Either you or Word Wolf pointed out that one must be WILLING to go beyond what one is taught. That’s right. If one is not willing, one can’t.
It's really sad about Craig, that he is not growing up. Still with the condemnation of everyone attitude. I would like to see him break out of those chains of elementary school stuff.
It's really sad about Craig, that he is not growing up. Still with the condemnation of everyone attitude. I would like to see him break out of those chains of elementary school stuff.
Yeah, same here. No matter what hes done I forgive him and seeing him in what seems to be the same state is sad.
I just came across a YouTube channel that claims to be L Craig Martindale and he says in it that it’s 2023, and talks about Wierwille and “the truth” about the crucifixion not being on Friday. Are you guys aware he’s resurfaced?
Listened to the entire teaching at high speed. Brought a smile to my face... typical Craig, speaking and teaching with boldness the PFAL class and collaterals. In some ways I think he's a better teacher now than in TWI. (Paraphrasing: "if you're tithing out of fear keep your money.") Ha! Would have loved to hear someone from TWI way back when encouraging us to keep our money! Of course his teaching isn't without its critique. He still seems to think that Roman Catholics are some mindless zombies with no soul or respect to worship God the Father Almighty. One will hardly ever know what's in the hearts and minds of churchgoers by reading books or following hearsay alone; you've got to invest time and energy investigating and researching firsthand, then make an informed determination. He would do well to spend a year or two attending church and talking with Roman Catholics; then he'd be in a better position to make an informed comment.
Listened to the entire teaching at high speed. Brought a smile to my face... typical Craig, speaking and teaching with boldness the PFAL class and collaterals. In some ways I think he's a better teacher now than in TWI. (Paraphrasing: "if you're tithing out of fear keep your money.") Ha! Would have loved to hear someone from TWI way back when encouraging us to keep our money! Of course his teaching isn't without its critique. He still seems to think that Roman Catholics are some mindless zombies with no soul or respect to worship God the Father Almighty. One will hardly ever know what's in the hearts and minds of churchgoers by reading books or following hearsay alone; you've got to invest time and energy investigating and researching firsthand, then make an informed determination. He would do well to spend a year or two attending church and talking with Roman Catholics; then he'd be in a better position to make an informed comment.
Good points. I think he confuses the organization with the people in it, where most Roman Catholics are honest, well meaning, principled people who do love God. The Roman Catholic Church as an organization is a different story. But they are not unique in that regard.
Paraphrasing: "if you're tithing out of fear keep your money." Ha!
Its interesting. On one hand it show growth not "tithe" out of fear...thats progress I guess...on the other hand...we aren't supposed to tithe at all. That was old covenant, Mosaic law. Its not compulsory and there is no longer temple/tabernacle priests to care for with our ten percent, or the need for a heave offering for the high priest because Jesus Christ is our high priest after the order of Melchisidek. What he should be saying is that giving is something to purpose in one's heart. If that purpose is ten percent then cool. Whatever a person decides then do it cheerfully because God loves a cheerful giver.
I wonder if he still thinks grease spotters are posessed.
Wow. Martindale ruined the Way. Even with its faults it was the best thing available in early 70s. Many of us wouldn’t even be alive Even if drs teachings were plagiarized he did put it all together for us. I left in 1988. Couldn’t take the carnage being wrought by LCM. I CANT understand and never will why dr W picked him. Was he being blackmailed? Or was he just failing in his decision making.
Wow. Martindale ruined the Way. Even with its faults it was the best thing available in early 70s. Many of us wouldn’t even be alive Even if drs teachings were plagiarized he did put it all together for us. I left in 1988. Couldn’t take the carnage being wrought by LCM. I CANT understand and never will why dr W picked him. Was he being blackmailed? Or was he just failing in his decision making.
Wow. Martindale ruined the Way. Even with its faults it was the best thing available in early 70s. Many of us wouldn’t even be alive Even if drs teachings were plagiarized he did put it all together for us. I left in 1988. Couldn’t take the carnage being wrought by LCM. I CANT understand and never will why dr W picked him. Was he being blackmailed? Or was he just failing in his decision making.
If memory serves it was the trustees who picked him-- VPW, HEW AND EO? As to why -- they viewed him as the best to carry it on.
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Guest MAW
I just came across a YouTube channel that claims to be L Craig Martindale and he says in it that it’s 2023, and talks about Wierwille and “the truth” about the crucifixion not being on Friday. Are you guys aware he’s resurfaced?
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WordWolf
According to vpw, twi was the best thing available in the early 70s. The House of Acts had been doing better, and BG Leonard had taught what vpw ripped off as the pfal classes, and vpw claimed twi was the best thing available. That was despite ripping off Leonard, and despite vpw effectively destroying the House of Acts to co-opt the Christians there to be his recruiting arm. As for "many of us wouldn't even be alive," that's pure vpw propaganda. It was invented by vpw to cause sincere Christians to transfer loyalty from God Almighty to vpw and twi. vpw's extended campaign to subvert worship from God Almighty and Jesus Christ to vpw HIMSELF and twi was so effective that decades later, there as STILL people repeating his phrases like some unthinking parrots. It was sad back then, but somewhat understandable. There's no excuse for it now.[/b]
"Even if drs teachings were plagiarized he did put it all together for us."
Incorrect. vpw said that, but he lied about that like he lied about everything else. vpw took BG Leonard's class and retaught it in its entirety as his first "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" class, and lied and said it was his unique class. He later filled it out to make 3 levels of pfal, which made more money. He plagiarized EW Bullinger for pfal Sessions 5-8 largely, and other times. As for Sessions 9-12, anything that wasn't straight Leonard was straight Stiles- vpw RETYPED JE Stiles' book on the holy spirit and put his own name on it. Later versions of that book and the classes attempted to change the terminology and definitions- more to hide his sources than anything else. As for "putting it all together for us", no. He "put it all together" (plagiarized it all) to have a steady income- tuition for the classes, shoving the tithe down everyone's throat (mandatory reading for pfal), and selling all twi materials at retail prices. EVERYTHING in twi was designed to run at a PROFIT. Want to go spread the Word for twi? Ok, they will tell you where to go. You must get there on your own, you must find housing on your own, you must work to support yourself. Oh, and when applying, you have to pay $200 for the privilege of going out there and providing them all that free labor. All classes ran at a profit. Materials were printed cheaply in-house and sold retail- for a tidy profit. Weekly teachings were available- pay to have weekly tapes delivered to your home (BTW, the tapes they used were the worst quality available- because they were cheaper for twi.) vpw did all that to serve HIMSELF.
"I left in 1988. Couldn’t take the carnage being wrought by LCM."
lcm made an understandable mistake. vpw knew all along that he himself was a FRAUD. He KNEW he had a public persona, a MASK, for the public, and privately was a petty, venal, alcoholic, a plagiarizing rapist, a simonist. So, he knew to keep up the ACT in public, to never let the public see he was a fraud. He pulled the same snow job on lcm- who really believed vpw was something special, "the greatest man of God in 2000 years" rather than just another con man and sinner. So, when lcm had the office, lcm thought that HE was now supernatural, that he'd get Divine Revelation for every fool thought that went through his head. Further, vpw taught lcm to have sex outside of marriage, that he had to "loosen up in that respect if he wanted to serve God's people." vpw KNEW it was wrong and covered his own tracks no matter what he told others - mainly to cover his tracks. lcm really thought extramarital sex in different forms (raping and drugging like vpw did included) was ok with God Almighty- so he did it and saw no need to cover his tracks as if it was both sinful and a felony. So, he got caught.
"I CANT understand and never will why dr W picked him. Was he being blackmailed? Or was he just failing in his decision making."
vpw's PhD came from a degree mill. It was an unaccredited institution. It had no more authority to grant a PhD than Schlotsky's Deli has. But calling him "doctor" was de rigeur. Interesting how he denigrated all the institutions that granted REAL degrees and said they didn't count, but he INSISTED on his "degree" as if it was the equal of theirs, an accredited Doctorate. So, a fake Dr.
Why did the fake Dr pick lcm? To hear vpw himself say it, lcm always just followed his orders and never questioned him. That was vpw's FIRST AND LAST words on the subject. vpw PLANNED it that way, he was NOT being leaned on. Everyone else recommended Walter C. vpw overruled everyone and stuck to his long-term plan and installed lcm. Did he fail in his decision-making? I would say, "Yes" to a great degree. His reasons were unsound, he ignored "a multitude of counselors" which is not "safe", and he gave lcm a completely unrealistic expectation of how the job worked. On paper, lcm should have failed. Add to that the one thing vpw wanted in picking lcm- that vpw could still tell him what to do and lcm would do it- that decision backfired majorly. Now that lcm was in charge, his misinformation that God Almighty kept giving vpw continuous revelation led him to think that every fool thought that went through his head was either Divine Revelation or otherwise endorsed by God Almighty. He had no interest in hearing from vpw anymore, and neither did anyone who had worked directly with vpw, especially the higher-ups who had seen parts of his fake persona slip and had a sense of how unreasonable he was, how difficult he was, how capricious he was, how he wasted everyone's time.
Now that a lot of hidden information has come to light, it's easy to see what happened. Hindsight is 20/20. We were hoodwinked, scammed, fooled. Can we move on from there? Yes, but not if we PREFER the scam to real Christian living.
Edited by WordWolf.
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Nathan_Jr
The question as to why victor chose Loy has been explored and discussed many, many times over the years right here on this discussion board, GSC.
Though the answer is multi-faceted, one important factor is victor paul wierwille lacked the requisite in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.
(Oh, how I've missed you, Irony... been gone too long.)
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Nathan_Jr
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Nathan_Jr
Take a number. Here's one. 1463. There are 1462 unanswered questions ahead of yours.
=======
Truth is not afraid of being questioned.
Hate is born of fear.
victor and LCM hated being questioned. When I say hated, I mean they HATED being questioned. Just listen to the tapes or read the transcripts. The accuracy of the evidence of their fear fits like a...
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chockfull
Ok I tried once again to listen to the incredible forehead.
I got as far into the teaching as him going on about God making a way to escape with the temptation and how you should be getting warnings from God ahead of time to avoid the trap.
Then irony closed in.
And I shut him off.
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Modgellan
Yes, there is a thread here:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25187-craig-has-his-own-offshoot-going-on/
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OldSkool
Im not surprised. Unless one really can get honest about a lot of things I wouldnt expect anyone to change. Its all he knows to do...same with other offshoots.
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OldSkool
I forwarded the video to around 20 minutes and made it through about 55 seconds. I cant. Its TWI all over again.
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waysider
Gonna save you the click.
"...and they all lived abundantly ever after."
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Rocky
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Twinky
I listened to the first few minutes. I was surprised at how calm he sounded. No rant!! (yet) However, full of praise for the achievements of the great doctor W. I wondered who he was trying to impress. Maybe he was appealing to the nostalgia of his "followers" for a bygone VPW era.
No thanks. Not for me.
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OldSkool
Good observation, that seems to be the survival move of the day. Just when followers wake up to how inept and callous TWI leaders really are they come through with resurrected classes and a shopping cart full of nostalgic wierwille adulation. Seems to work.
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Nathan_Jr
I sampled a few of his lectures -- so much quoting of victor paul wierwille, so many "Huh?" moments.
It almost seems like he's making up this bullshonta off the cuff, as he's holding forth. But I know the bullshonta is meticulously invented, calculated.
Well, it's established: you really can't go beyond what you are taught.
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Rocky
I disagree with your conclusion as a blanket statement. For many, in practice, it seems to apply. Not to me, however. And it doesn't have to apply to anyone else who doesn't want it to.
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Nathan_Jr
Well, it’s sarcasm, parody.
It’s not my conclusion. It’s victor’s. And, demonstrably, Loy hasn’t gone beyond what victor taught.
This idea of victor’s is absurd, and I have never agreed with it. It has been discussed elsewhere in the forum. Either you or Word Wolf pointed out that one must be WILLING to go beyond what one is taught. That’s right. If one is not willing, one can’t.
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cman
It's really sad about Craig, that he is not growing up. Still with the condemnation of everyone attitude. I would like to see him break out of those chains of elementary school stuff.
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OldSkool
Yeah, same here. No matter what hes done I forgive him and seeing him in what seems to be the same state is sad.
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oldiesman
Listened to the entire teaching at high speed. Brought a smile to my face... typical Craig, speaking and teaching with boldness the PFAL class and collaterals. In some ways I think he's a better teacher now than in TWI. (Paraphrasing: "if you're tithing out of fear keep your money.") Ha! Would have loved to hear someone from TWI way back when encouraging us to keep our money! Of course his teaching isn't without its critique. He still seems to think that Roman Catholics are some mindless zombies with no soul or respect to worship God the Father Almighty. One will hardly ever know what's in the hearts and minds of churchgoers by reading books or following hearsay alone; you've got to invest time and energy investigating and researching firsthand, then make an informed determination. He would do well to spend a year or two attending church and talking with Roman Catholics; then he'd be in a better position to make an informed comment.
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OldSkool
Good points. I think he confuses the organization with the people in it, where most Roman Catholics are honest, well meaning, principled people who do love God. The Roman Catholic Church as an organization is a different story. But they are not unique in that regard.
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OldSkool
Its interesting. On one hand it show growth not "tithe" out of fear...thats progress I guess...on the other hand...we aren't supposed to tithe at all. That was old covenant, Mosaic law. Its not compulsory and there is no longer temple/tabernacle priests to care for with our ten percent, or the need for a heave offering for the high priest because Jesus Christ is our high priest after the order of Melchisidek. What he should be saying is that giving is something to purpose in one's heart. If that purpose is ten percent then cool. Whatever a person decides then do it cheerfully because God loves a cheerful giver.
I wonder if he still thinks grease spotters are posessed.
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lweber55
Wow. Martindale ruined the Way. Even with its faults it was the best thing available in early 70s. Many of us wouldn’t even be alive Even if drs teachings were plagiarized he did put it all together for us. I left in 1988. Couldn’t take the carnage being wrought by LCM. I CANT understand and never will why dr W picked him. Was he being blackmailed? Or was he just failing in his decision making.
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waysider
We welcome all opinions here, though there will be some who disagree.
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Rocky
Was he being blackmailed? I doubt it.
Who knows what's in the heart of any human?
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oldiesman
If memory serves it was the trustees who picked him-- VPW, HEW AND EO? As to why -- they viewed him as the best to carry it on.
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