I'm not American but there seems to be a lot of higher up "Christian" ministers who have publicly spoke of their preferred candidate and based it on scripture. I wonder how they get away with it.
Peer pressure most likely. Belonging is not unique to cultic or religious organizations.
Although the importance of social relationships, cultural identity, and — especially for indigenous people — place have long been apparent in research across multiple disciplines (e.g.,Baumeister & Leary, 1995;Cacioppo, & Hawkley, 2003; Carter et al., 2017;Maslow, 1954;Rouchy, 2002; Vaillant, 2012), the year 2020 — with massive bushfires in Australia and elsewhere destroying ancient lands, the emergence of the COVID-19 pandemic, and the Black Lives Matter movement in the U.S., amongst other events — brought the importance of belonging to the forefront of public attention. Belonging can be defined as a subjective feeling that one is an integral part of their surrounding systems, including family, friends, school, work environments, communities, cultural groups, and physical places (Hagerty et al., 1992). Most people have a deep need to feel a sense of belonging, characterized as a positive but often fluid and ephemeral connection with other people, places, or experiences (Allen, 2020a).
In twi, things like that went on because vpw wanted it (as long as he was in charge), since he'd set up twi to have the Head Cheese wield autocratic power without checks or balances. (The same, obviously, applies to his successors, who also enjoy power limited only by the now-pitiful reach of twi.)
So, vpw wanted it. The question then becomes....why did vpw want it? vpw was all about power- the wielding of power, and the appearance of prestige and influence. (It's why he got his doctorate at a degree mill and then INSISTED on being called "Doctor." I'm three times the fake doctor he was, and you don't see me insisting on "doctor.")
So, some of it was to try to make twi seem influential, which made vpw seem influential. Another part of it was something different. Other than vpw's abilities to con people, he was actually pretty stupid. He always cut corners on his education, and never learned if he could plagiarize instead, and tried not to bother with anything else. When it came to other types of con, vpw fell for them. If you had a fake supernatural con, vpw would swallow it and teach the Advanced Class it was real and NOT a sleight-of-hand trick. (I believe there's real stuff, but it's a lot rarer than the cons, and conflating the two is wrong no matter what.)
One of vpw's sources for conning was the John Birch Society, a bunch of tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists. He had a hotline to all their pet weird ideas. He would listen to them, then announce all of their stuff and pretend he was getting Divine Revelation about all of it. Rock and roll being of the devil? Yeah, the JBS and all their cronies. So, if the JBS endorsed candidates, vpw went along and endorsed them also. Stupid of him? Yes. It makes about as much sense as a news-anchor reading ANYTHING off the teleprompter, even if it made no sense or was inappropriate. But the same thing in the sense that it was mindless parroting of something from someone else. twi was actually pretty effective at teaching all sorts of people to do mindless parroting of all sorts of things. Society has LOTS of people who do that, but twi made a policy of it, and we're here discussing them, of course.
The idea of separating religion from politics is, in historical terms, a fairly recent phenomenon. The church has been intertwined with the state ever since there was a state (or a church). If the Bible is to be believed, it is impossible to separate the nation of Israel from the worship of the God of Israel.
That doesn't change because the First Amendment exists. Belief in God remains a political asset to be appreciated, expected, and yes, exploited. The left invoked faith to campaign against slavery, the right to campaign against abortion. I would hardly expect TWI to be any different. The Jehovah's Witnesses are rather unique in their resolve to divorce the religion from the politics of this world. The Catholic Church openly embraces political causes, if not parties. Some of the literature I've seen would suggest they care more about opposition to abortion than they do about opposition to the death penalty, but their stances on each of those issues are otherwise equally strong.
I am confident that if you find a church that doesn't try to tell you one way or another how to vote, you have found the exception rather than the rule.
Ironic, I just get a very stern message from Modcat warning me of no more POLITICAL POSTS on this forum...log on and HELLO...politics politics politics...
well at least this might LIVEN up the place hahahahahmmnnn
As to the original posters question of whether Murica should adopt 'multi party' elections....Please Don't...it has been the bane of democracy here in Australia and New Zealand...Imagine a 'crooked' party doing backroom deals with an equally crooked party to get majority coalition. It's corrupt over there NOW without giving the regime in charge even more tools to weaponize.
Actually, Allan, yours was the most "political" of posts on this thread so far. It's a discussion of how politics was used in twi. Nobody has had to post any politics, just what happened in twi, and how vpw pushed certain agendas. Other than a single sentence in the first thread, this thread has been " about" politics without containing politics.
(BTW, chockfull, my experience has been the opposite of Allan's, which is not terribly surprising because we don't live in the same country. Around here, a more-than-two-parties system increases the chance the public's actually represented, and fringe groups don't hijack a major party.)
TWI made an attempt to inject its influence into a political campaign in Maine in the late 1970s or early 1980s. It didn't go well.
vpw always inflated the importance of any public figure- in order to claim twi was significant because it contained vip's. So, ONE NFL player and vpw went crazy. One COACH for tennis and even lcm dropped her name. So, small wonder vpw wanted in when someone ostensibly IN twi was running for public office. No, it did not go well for or with H@yes G@h@g@n of Maine.
Ironic, I just get a very stern message from Modcat warning me of no more POLITICAL POSTS on this forum...log on and HELLO...politics politics politics...
well at least this might LIVEN up the place hahahahahmmnnn
As to the original posters question of whether Murica should adopt 'multi party' elections....Please Don't...it has been the bane of democracy here in Australia and New Zealand...Imagine a 'crooked' party doing backroom deals with an equally crooked party to get majority coalition. It's corrupt over there NOW without giving the regime in charge even more tools to weaponize.
Thx for the note from an experienced perspective. Maybe it’s a phenomenon with the grass being greener on the other side and the lack of options we have here that’s influencing my feelings on that front.
I guess our choices are crooked party backroom deals and insurrection.
Politics is messy. Thx mods for bending rhe rules to accommodate a civil conversation that discusses government and politics as related to TWI.
“…question of whether Murica should adopt 'multi party' elections....Please Don't...it has been the bane of democracy here in Australia and New Zealand...Imagine a 'crooked' party doing backroom deals with an equally crooked party to get majority coalition. It's corrupt over there NOW without giving the regime in charge even more tools to weaponize.”
This is not difficult to imagine at all. To presume this isn’t already going on is, well, presumptuous and a failure of imagination.
TWI pushed some really bizarre political views, but he didn't really have any knowledge (IMO) of what the party/ies were about. They certainly didn't have any wider perspective.
I can't comment on VPW personally, only from what I've heard of old teachings and what other people said he said - he was dead shortly before I got involved.
I can speak to what LCM said, and some of that was very odd (but then, he was odd himself). Not being American, I let most of it wash over me. But I did resent his comments on the EU and the nations of Europe having a common border. He was over the top in his remarks, so I kinda whitewashed them. Ite was clear he had no idea of non-US politics, of collaboration, of wanting something bigger than themselves. Stupid man. The EU with all its countries is still not as big as the USA with all its states - did he think, then, that the States should all secede and become completely independent of each other and of pan-continental legislation? Each State to its own - in everything?
And his lack of knowledge of European political history, and why the EU (formerly EEC) came about - if he'd had an iota of background he'd've thought rather differently.
My thoughts? Get your hands off what you know nothing about! You stick to preaching the gospel. Leave politics, and particularly European politics, well alone!!!
Having said that, hey, Christianity is very counter-cultural - and thus political.
But don't line up with "party" ideas.
Line up with what the Bible says, the best you understand it. Read and think thoroughly. Do NOT take your pseudo-minister's word for it.
Above all, choose with compassion.
You probably shouldn't even take any political party's word for what they say they're going to do. Read their manifesto; get the small print. But even then, any govt minister will weasel out from manifesto commitments by saying that circumstances have changed / there isn't the budget / this latest emergency takes precedence. Whatever.
I'm not American but there seems to be a lot of higher up "Christian" ministers who have publicly spoke of their preferred candidate and based it on scripture. I wonder how they get away with it.
Yes, especially in the USA. Thankfully, that doesn't happen in churches in the UK. Not any that I'm aware of, anyway. Likely if any church minister here said, Vote for Candidate X, or Vote for Party Y, they'd get roundly roasted by the PCC and many members of the congregation.
*Wowzerz, this slope is slippery! A fun topic, but dangerous. Trying to mind my Ps and Qs, but damn these sans serifs!!*
To Raf's earlier point about long-standing intertwining of church and state, two of the most powerful and influential lobbies in Washington are religious, the Family and AIPAC. (One might argue AIPAC is merely pro-Israel, not pro-Jew/Judaism, but Netanyahu is on record saying there is no difference.)
Also, we have a presidential candidate presently selling Bibles for personal profit, as you may be aware. (I can imagine wierwille taking credit for this idea, as he did for the hook shot.)
I'm not sure which came first, the political grifter of the pseudo-religious huckster, either way, sometimes they are indistinguishable.
Also, we have a presidential candidate presently selling Bibles for personal profit, as you may be aware.
In the FAQs section of itswebsite, it clearly states this is the only bible endorsed by Trump and Greenwood... The website says: "Easy-to-read, large print, and slim design, this bible invites you to explore God’s Word anywhere, any time. This bible has been designed so that it delivers an easy reading experience in the trusted King James Version translation.
I'm wondering what they've done to make this "an easy reading experience" - especially as they're using "the King James Version" (more properly, the Authorised Version). Have they removed all the words having more than five letters, or two syllables? AV is far from an easy read. Large print? And slim? Even if it's just NT, there has to be a whole lot missing, perhaps the parts about ... [I deleted that, as this is supposed to be a non-political thread]. Are there pictures in it, too? (Maybe featuring YKW as Jesus?)
Churches need strong, principled, leaders who preach the gospel and are not afraid to call out political leaders. Not those who pervert the gospel to their own political ends.
Politics needs strong, principled, leaders who listen to the wishes of the populace and are not afraid to call out liars. Not those who pervert the gospel to their own political ends.
What I found in TWI is that so much was governed by unspoken rules so that people had to know these unspoken rules or face consequences. The politics side of that is one of those scenarios. You have little lemmings pulling up to little voting boxes and all pulling the same levers because that’s what good lemmings do. There was no diversity of opinion or thought. This is the biggest travesty - environments for producing Stepford robots with no propensity for freedom of thought or opinion.
That describes the Ways vision of Christianity. Not a worldwide body of Christ composed of members in particular with different ideas and talents, but rather a uniform stamped copy of the perfect “believer” not Christian because that’s a bad word. They all vote the same way, hold the same opinions and it is all masked under what they call being “likeminded”. It is a mental hold on people starting with “the class” and driving towards “likemindedness”
And all of it is unspoken from stages to avoid the threat of paying taxes on earnings.
What I found in TWI is that so much was governed by unspoken rules so that people had to know these unspoken rules or face consequences. The politics side of that is one of those scenarios. You have little lemmings pulling up to little voting boxes and all pulling the same levers because that’s what good lemmings do. There was no diversity of opinion or thought. This is the biggest travesty - environments for producing Stepford robots with no propensity for freedom of thought or opinion.
“I’ll tell you what to think.” - L. Craig Martindale
This post got me thinking about something that's baffled me for decades. I often think about TWi when Chritians are so strongly pro-life. Other than The Way, are there any fundamentalist groups who are openly pro choice?
Recommended Posts
Charity
I'm not American but there seems to be a lot of higher up "Christian" ministers who have publicly spoke of their preferred candidate and based it on scripture. I wonder how they get away with it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Peer pressure most likely. Belonging is not unique to cultic or religious organizations.
Although the importance of social relationships, cultural identity, and — especially for indigenous people — place have long been apparent in research across multiple disciplines (e.g., Baumeister & Leary, 1995; Cacioppo, & Hawkley, 2003; Carter et al., 2017; Maslow, 1954; Rouchy, 2002; Vaillant, 2012), the year 2020 — with massive bushfires in Australia and elsewhere destroying ancient lands, the emergence of the COVID-19 pandemic, and the Black Lives Matter movement in the U.S., amongst other events — brought the importance of belonging to the forefront of public attention. Belonging can be defined as a subjective feeling that one is an integral part of their surrounding systems, including family, friends, school, work environments, communities, cultural groups, and physical places (Hagerty et al., 1992). Most people have a deep need to feel a sense of belonging, characterized as a positive but often fluid and ephemeral connection with other people, places, or experiences (Allen, 2020a).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
In twi, things like that went on because vpw wanted it (as long as he was in charge), since he'd set up twi to have the Head Cheese wield autocratic power without checks or balances. (The same, obviously, applies to his successors, who also enjoy power limited only by the now-pitiful reach of twi.)
So, vpw wanted it. The question then becomes....why did vpw want it? vpw was all about power- the wielding of power, and the appearance of prestige and influence. (It's why he got his doctorate at a degree mill and then INSISTED on being called "Doctor." I'm three times the fake doctor he was, and you don't see me insisting on "doctor.")
So, some of it was to try to make twi seem influential, which made vpw seem influential. Another part of it was something different. Other than vpw's abilities to con people, he was actually pretty stupid. He always cut corners on his education, and never learned if he could plagiarize instead, and tried not to bother with anything else. When it came to other types of con, vpw fell for them. If you had a fake supernatural con, vpw would swallow it and teach the Advanced Class it was real and NOT a sleight-of-hand trick. (I believe there's real stuff, but it's a lot rarer than the cons, and conflating the two is wrong no matter what.)
One of vpw's sources for conning was the John Birch Society, a bunch of tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists. He had a hotline to all their pet weird ideas. He would listen to them, then announce all of their stuff and pretend he was getting Divine Revelation about all of it. Rock and roll being of the devil? Yeah, the JBS and all their cronies. So, if the JBS endorsed candidates, vpw went along and endorsed them also. Stupid of him? Yes. It makes about as much sense as a news-anchor reading ANYTHING off the teleprompter, even if it made no sense or was inappropriate. But the same thing in the sense that it was mindless parroting of something from someone else. twi was actually pretty effective at teaching all sorts of people to do mindless parroting of all sorts of things. Society has LOTS of people who do that, but twi made a policy of it, and we're here discussing them, of course.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Please explain.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
I’m inclined to invoke Louis Armstrong here, but you said please.
It’s an additional upvote, an ironic one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
modcat5
The idea of separating religion from politics is, in historical terms, a fairly recent phenomenon. The church has been intertwined with the state ever since there was a state (or a church). If the Bible is to be believed, it is impossible to separate the nation of Israel from the worship of the God of Israel.
That doesn't change because the First Amendment exists. Belief in God remains a political asset to be appreciated, expected, and yes, exploited. The left invoked faith to campaign against slavery, the right to campaign against abortion. I would hardly expect TWI to be any different. The Jehovah's Witnesses are rather unique in their resolve to divorce the religion from the politics of this world. The Catholic Church openly embraces political causes, if not parties. Some of the literature I've seen would suggest they care more about opposition to abortion than they do about opposition to the death penalty, but their stances on each of those issues are otherwise equally strong.
I am confident that if you find a church that doesn't try to tell you one way or another how to vote, you have found the exception rather than the rule.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
TWI made an attempt to inject its influence into a political campaign in Maine in the late 1970s or early 1980s. It didn't go well.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Allan
Ironic, I just get a very stern message from Modcat warning me of no more POLITICAL POSTS on this forum...log on and HELLO...politics politics politics...
well at least this might LIVEN up the place hahahahahmmnnn
As to the original posters question of whether Murica should adopt 'multi party' elections....Please Don't...it has been the bane of democracy here in Australia and New Zealand...Imagine a 'crooked' party doing backroom deals with an equally crooked party to get majority coalition. It's corrupt over there NOW without giving the regime in charge even more tools to weaponize.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Actually, Allan, yours was the most "political" of posts on this thread so far. It's a discussion of how politics was used in twi. Nobody has had to post any politics, just what happened in twi, and how vpw pushed certain agendas. Other than a single sentence in the first thread, this thread has been " about" politics without containing politics.
(BTW, chockfull, my experience has been the opposite of Allan's, which is not terribly surprising because we don't live in the same country. Around here, a more-than-two-parties system increases the chance the public's actually represented, and fringe groups don't hijack a major party.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
vpw always inflated the importance of any public figure- in order to claim twi was significant because it contained vip's. So, ONE NFL player and vpw went crazy. One COACH for tennis and even lcm dropped her name. So, small wonder vpw wanted in when someone ostensibly IN twi was running for public office. No, it did not go well for or with H@yes G@h@g@n of Maine.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/22444-hayes-gahagan/#comment-527243
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
Thx for the note from an experienced perspective. Maybe it’s a phenomenon with the grass being greener on the other side and the lack of options we have here that’s influencing my feelings on that front.
I guess our choices are crooked party backroom deals and insurrection.
Politics is messy. Thx mods for bending rhe rules to accommodate a civil conversation that discusses government and politics as related to TWI.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
“…question of whether Murica should adopt 'multi party' elections....Please Don't...it has been the bane of democracy here in Australia and New Zealand...Imagine a 'crooked' party doing backroom deals with an equally crooked party to get majority coalition. It's corrupt over there NOW without giving the regime in charge even more tools to weaponize.”
This is not difficult to imagine at all. To presume this isn’t already going on is, well, presumptuous and a failure of imagination.
And we already have multi-party elections.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
TWI pushed some really bizarre political views, but he didn't really have any knowledge (IMO) of what the party/ies were about. They certainly didn't have any wider perspective.
I can't comment on VPW personally, only from what I've heard of old teachings and what other people said he said - he was dead shortly before I got involved.
I can speak to what LCM said, and some of that was very odd (but then, he was odd himself). Not being American, I let most of it wash over me. But I did resent his comments on the EU and the nations of Europe having a common border. He was over the top in his remarks, so I kinda whitewashed them. Ite was clear he had no idea of non-US politics, of collaboration, of wanting something bigger than themselves. Stupid man. The EU with all its countries is still not as big as the USA with all its states - did he think, then, that the States should all secede and become completely independent of each other and of pan-continental legislation? Each State to its own - in everything?
And his lack of knowledge of European political history, and why the EU (formerly EEC) came about - if he'd had an iota of background he'd've thought rather differently.
My thoughts? Get your hands off what you know nothing about! You stick to preaching the gospel. Leave politics, and particularly European politics, well alone!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Having said that, hey, Christianity is very counter-cultural - and thus political.
But don't line up with "party" ideas.
Line up with what the Bible says, the best you understand it. Read and think thoroughly. Do NOT take your pseudo-minister's word for it.
Above all, choose with compassion.
You probably shouldn't even take any political party's word for what they say they're going to do. Read their manifesto; get the small print. But even then, any govt minister will weasel out from manifesto commitments by saying that circumstances have changed / there isn't the budget / this latest emergency takes precedence. Whatever.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Yes, especially in the USA. Thankfully, that doesn't happen in churches in the UK. Not any that I'm aware of, anyway. Likely if any church minister here said, Vote for Candidate X, or Vote for Party Y, they'd get roundly roasted by the PCC and many members of the congregation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
@Charity@Twinky
*Wowzerz, this slope is slippery! A fun topic, but dangerous. Trying to mind my Ps and Qs, but damn these sans serifs!!*
To Raf's earlier point about long-standing intertwining of church and state, two of the most powerful and influential lobbies in Washington are religious, the Family and AIPAC. (One might argue AIPAC is merely pro-Israel, not pro-Jew/Judaism, but Netanyahu is on record saying there is no difference.)
Also, we have a presidential candidate presently selling Bibles for personal profit, as you may be aware. (I can imagine wierwille taking credit for this idea, as he did for the hook shot.)
I'm not sure which came first, the political grifter of the pseudo-religious huckster, either way, sometimes they are indistinguishable.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
In the FAQs section of its website, it clearly states this is the only bible endorsed by Trump and Greenwood... The website says: "Easy-to-read, large print, and slim design, this bible invites you to explore God’s Word anywhere, any time. This bible has been designed so that it delivers an easy reading experience in the trusted King James Version translation.
I'm wondering what they've done to make this "an easy reading experience" - especially as they're using "the King James Version" (more properly, the Authorised Version). Have they removed all the words having more than five letters, or two syllables? AV is far from an easy read. Large print? And slim? Even if it's just NT, there has to be a whole lot missing, perhaps the parts about ... [I deleted that, as this is supposed to be a non-political thread]. Are there pictures in it, too? (Maybe featuring YKW as Jesus?)
Churches need strong, principled, leaders who preach the gospel and are not afraid to call out political leaders. Not those who pervert the gospel to their own political ends.
Politics needs strong, principled, leaders who listen to the wishes of the populace and are not afraid to call out liars. Not those who pervert the gospel to their own political ends.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
What I found in TWI is that so much was governed by unspoken rules so that people had to know these unspoken rules or face consequences. The politics side of that is one of those scenarios. You have little lemmings pulling up to little voting boxes and all pulling the same levers because that’s what good lemmings do. There was no diversity of opinion or thought. This is the biggest travesty - environments for producing Stepford robots with no propensity for freedom of thought or opinion.
That describes the Ways vision of Christianity. Not a worldwide body of Christ composed of members in particular with different ideas and talents, but rather a uniform stamped copy of the perfect “believer” not Christian because that’s a bad word. They all vote the same way, hold the same opinions and it is all masked under what they call being “likeminded”. It is a mental hold on people starting with “the class” and driving towards “likemindedness”
And all of it is unspoken from stages to avoid the threat of paying taxes on earnings.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
“I’ll tell you what to think.” - L. Craig Martindale
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
This Bible also features a copy of:
*Hello, Irony.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nathan_Jr
Caesar was messiah before Jesus…
…victor paul wierwille anointed himself with delusions of snow…
…then, Then, THEN vic rubbed oil (fcking OIL!) on bitch-boy Loy’s head, making him Caesar…
And here we are…
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/01/us/politics/trump-2024-religion.html
Long live Caesar!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Junior Corps Surviver
This post got me thinking about something that's baffled me for decades. I often think about TWi when Chritians are so strongly pro-life. Other than The Way, are there any fundamentalist groups who are openly pro choice?
This is not a post meant to debate abortion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.