I left because I could not be the leader they wanted me to be. It is not in my character to be confrontational, accusatory and vein popping mad. Besides after having seen the way my Corps sisters and brothers were treated by leadership, as well as my self, I could do no other.
TWI was sinking fast and I abandoned ship with a flotation device under my dress. Now "I WEAR THE PANTS IN THE FAMILY!" :D-->
1987...Mr martindale had just delivered an edict to the clueless flock. He decided that it was important, for all the twig coordinators, to communicate to him on a weekly basis, stating who was faithful and who was not faithful in the respective fellowships. The factors in deciding who was faithful and who wasn't, could easily be determined by looking at their attendance record and the amount of money that they gave...simple enough.
A week after this announcement was made in my area, I had a scheduled leaders meeting to attend...and it was my turn to teach. I made my final teaching as colorful as I could. I let it be known that under no circumstance would I take part in such an ungodly rating system. I told the group of leaders that from hence forth, I could no longer follow the corrupted martindale...I turned and walked out the door.
The next day, my entire branch was told to avoid me because I was crawling with demons from the underbelly of hell...or something like that. Two years later, those same leaders who had announced my reprobate condition, became infested with those same demons...go figure.
I left on my terms and feel good about that. ;)-->
1. In 1982 I married someone (another advanced class grad) who the Limb Leader did not approve of. Shortly thereafter the new LC, filled with stories of how we needed to be watched, pushed me too far one day and we had a yellin', cussin' argument over the phone. We then stopped going to Way functions. As far as I know M&A was not in force, since we still had cordial relationships with several "innies".
We continued to believe what Weirwille taught and ended up getting back in at the end of 1990, missing all the excitement of POP and the "loyalty oath".
2. In 1996 or thereabout, the Branch Coordinator yelled at my then-wife over a trivial matter. I yelled back and was thrown out of his house. When we got home I told my family that no one has the right to yell at somebody's wife like that and I wasn't going to stand for it, wasn't going to apologize, so I wasn't going back. My then-wife sided with the BC. Rather than stand outside TWI without her, I went back.
3. About a year and a half after the A***n lawsuit the WayGB discovered that I was posting on GS. Shortly thereafter I was told that I "was not welcome at Way fellowships since I did not believe that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the right direction".
I was kicked out for allowing a member of my "earthly family" to live with me and in a meeting with TC's and BC, I refused to throw my family member out as requested. This family member did not want to take THE CLASS. What a trip now that I think back on it. -->
I've mentioned this in other threads, but I might elaborate some, here. When I took PFAL years ago, I thought that the keys to understanding the Bible were great. They made sense to me, a scientist. I was also told that questions were fine, because if my TC couldn't answer them, he would ask the BC, etc., until someone knew the answer. That person would send the answer down the line so that everyone would know. Open belligerence wasn't respected, but thoughtful questions were answered as best as people could. (I even wrote to VPW once, comparing "Uncle Harry Day" to Roman Catholic feasts. He sent me a very peaceful response. Although the gist of the response was "Uncle Harry Day is OK," I don't think it's a coincidence that the day was re-named the very next year.
Unfortunately, as the years rolled on, questions were not considered a desire to learn but a rebellion agains authority. Since I don't accept BS easily, I was branded a troublemaker and was reproved on a number of occasions. Of course, since I wasn't homosexual, had no debt, and gave above the tithe, there wasn't much they could oust me on.
Finally, I and my new fiancee (we had been engaged about a month) were dragged into a kangaroo court, where I was chastened for pridefully leading songs in Twig that almost nobody new, and for refusing to believe LCM's statement that the only reason for a space program is military dominance. A quick call to the LC confirmed my excommunication. My fiancee was given the choice of leaving me or TWI; she wisely chose the latter. We've been married for over six years and fellowship with other ex-wayfers in the Houston area. :)-->
Of course, I was stunned when it happened, and I really didn't say much in my defense (not that it would have mattered much, I suppose). I did have a major "esprit d'escalier" a couple of days later, though. Part of the "gallery" at my tribunal was my TC, who worked for NASA. I'm sure she wasn't working on military secrets, so her involvement seemed a bit hypocritical. (Frankly, though, I find Psalm 19:1 a perfectly good reason for a space program.) Also a "Corps Grad" who had praised me for leading lesser-known songs a couple of weeks prior just sat there watching me be berated. I don't really blame him or my ex-TC, though. They were all scared to death of being booted themselves.
The group I presently fellowship with has no problems with questions. We just crack open the Bible, pull out our Greek texts and concordances, and go to work. Biblical RESEARCH -- what a concept! :D-->
quote: I left because I could not be the leader they wanted me to be. It is not in my character to be confrontational, accusatory and vein popping mad.
Oakspear posted:
quote: In 1996 or thereabout, the Branch Coordinator yelled at my then-wife over a trivial matter. I yelled back and was thrown out of his house. When we got home I told my family that no one has the right to yell at somebody's wife like that and I wasn't going to stand for it,
Hmm. I never heard of a church where displays of anger are considered acceptable behaviour.
Uncle Hairy posted:
quote: The next day, my entire branch was told to avoid me because I was crawling with demons from the underbelly of hell...or something like that. Two years later, those same leaders who had announced my reprobate condition, became infested with those same demons...go figure.
quote: I left because I could not be the leader they wanted me to be. It is not in my character to be confrontational, accusatory and vein popping mad.
Oakspear posted:
quote: In 1996 or thereabout, the Branch Coordinator yelled at my then-wife over a trivial matter. I yelled back and was thrown out of his house. When we got home I told my family that no one has the right to yell at somebody's wife like that and I wasn't going to stand for it,
Hmm. I never heard of a church where displays of anger are considered acceptable behaviour.
You haven't heard the tenth part of that little subject. BTW, hello. :)-->
Uncle Hairy posted:
quote: The next day, my entire branch was told to avoid me because I was crawling with demons from the underbelly of hell...or something like that. Two years later, those same leaders who had announced my reprobate condition, became infested with those same demons...go figure.
That was funny. :D-->
Funny from here, but typical from there. People leaving were given a smear campaign to make a lawyer wince. You want to see some scary stuff, check out the links on the main page. Someone blamed a person's death by plane crash on their family's exit from the organization.
I would say it's more high decline. They had a lot of people in the 70s but have been in decline for years. As for new members, most people look them up on the web and then decline to come.
Either way, they are in "decline."
For those who do come, most do not stay very long. In my final years, I saw almost NO new members at all. To follow their terminology, there are no "members" but the three members of the board of trustees who run the place. All else just "freely avail" themselves of fellowship. So let's call them followers.
To be considered an active follower, one must quickly take the basic instruction course called "The Foundational Class." During the waning days, most of the new students were the kids of old members. Once they turned 18, most did not attend unless they still lived with their parents.
From what I see the mewmbership has crashed to just a few thousand.
This Martindale guy appears to be a dogmatic and abusive ******* who has driven everyone but the most diehard and desperate believers away.
I imagine they are telling themselves that when all the "fair weather" followers have been "tested, exposed and been "weeded out" they can rebuild from a small but very solid foundation.
Stunning accuracy! That is a message I heard prior to departing. The teaching theme was "the Faithful Remnant." Only us "True-blue, faithful, special people have stayed true to God's Word." Many comparisons were made to Paul near the end of Acts when so many had departed him. Although Craig Martindale more often compared himself to Timothy. In his "humble mode", the founder, Weirwille, was Paul and he was Timothy. True to the end. Unfortunately or fortunately, he was true until getting ejected.
My guess is this is not the first time you've heard this story?
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oldiesman
I didn't leave TWI, they left me.
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Goey
I left for several reasons:
1. Incomplete anwers or dodges on doctrinal questions.
2. Advancing legalism.
3. A thrust towards obedience and service to leaders instead of leaders serving those they led.
4. Meddling of leaders into the private lives of folks where they had no business meddling.
5. An advancing caste system - but basically the split bewtween Corps and non-Corps.
6. Leadership (Corps Men/Reverends) constantly making sexual advances towards my girlfriend/fiance.
This was in 82 - TWI-1
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imbus
I left because I could not be the leader they wanted me to be. It is not in my character to be confrontational, accusatory and vein popping mad. Besides after having seen the way my Corps sisters and brothers were treated by leadership, as well as my self, I could do no other.
TWI was sinking fast and I abandoned ship with a flotation device under my dress. Now "I WEAR THE PANTS IN THE FAMILY!"
:D-->
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Raf
I left because they fired everyone in NY, didn't tell any of us who was now in charge, and started exalting LCM wayyyyyy to highly for my taste.
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A la prochaine
I was told I was no longer welcome.
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outandabout
I had been miserable for years but didn't realize that God didn't mind if I left. When I knew it was ok to go, I was gone.
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excathedra
because i have but one father in the word
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Trefor Heywood
I outlined it all in my story.
There can be few who are not glad that they left now with hindsight, whatever the reason was.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I planned my departure...
1987...Mr martindale had just delivered an edict to the clueless flock. He decided that it was important, for all the twig coordinators, to communicate to him on a weekly basis, stating who was faithful and who was not faithful in the respective fellowships. The factors in deciding who was faithful and who wasn't, could easily be determined by looking at their attendance record and the amount of money that they gave...simple enough.
A week after this announcement was made in my area, I had a scheduled leaders meeting to attend...and it was my turn to teach. I made my final teaching as colorful as I could. I let it be known that under no circumstance would I take part in such an ungodly rating system. I told the group of leaders that from hence forth, I could no longer follow the corrupted martindale...I turned and walked out the door.
The next day, my entire branch was told to avoid me because I was crawling with demons from the underbelly of hell...or something like that. Two years later, those same leaders who had announced my reprobate condition, became infested with those same demons...go figure.
I left on my terms and feel good about that.
;)-->
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Oakspear
I actually left three times
1. In 1982 I married someone (another advanced class grad) who the Limb Leader did not approve of. Shortly thereafter the new LC, filled with stories of how we needed to be watched, pushed me too far one day and we had a yellin', cussin' argument over the phone. We then stopped going to Way functions. As far as I know M&A was not in force, since we still had cordial relationships with several "innies".
We continued to believe what Weirwille taught and ended up getting back in at the end of 1990, missing all the excitement of POP and the "loyalty oath".
2. In 1996 or thereabout, the Branch Coordinator yelled at my then-wife over a trivial matter. I yelled back and was thrown out of his house. When we got home I told my family that no one has the right to yell at somebody's wife like that and I wasn't going to stand for it, wasn't going to apologize, so I wasn't going back. My then-wife sided with the BC. Rather than stand outside TWI without her, I went back.
3. About a year and a half after the A***n lawsuit the WayGB discovered that I was posting on GS. Shortly thereafter I was told that I "was not welcome at Way fellowships since I did not believe that the Trustees were leading the ministry in the right direction".
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WordWolf
It was 1989.
The communications and scuttlebut from hq were looking problematic. I remained
optimistic that things would improve-I believed, and said, that the other
higher-ups would confer, and lcm would get his act together. (Paraphrasing.)
The next communique was "all the leadership in your state has been fired for
being evil". Well, having gotten to know some of these people, I knew that
wasn't true, and convinced me it was time to prepare an exit. I wasn't sure
who I'd end up with, but the mass firings made that part easier, since all
NY state's leaders left as an organized unit, and most of the state's wayfers
went with them. Seeing the only viable choice as one or the other, I went with
the state (vf) and who they went with at the time (cg). Looking back, I still
think, at the time, it was the right decision.
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outofdafog
I was kicked out for allowing a member of my "earthly family" to live with me and in a meeting with TC's and BC, I refused to throw my family member out as requested. This family member did not want to take THE CLASS. What a trip now that I think back on it.
-->
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jell remler
I was ashamed to be part of TWI's leadership.
I got to the point where I didn't want people to know I was part of TWI.
This was in 2002 after about 22 years of being involved
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JustThinking
Screaming
No real research going on
No growth
Lawsuits
Craig worship
Leaders disappearing in the middle of the night
BBBOOOORRRRIIIINNNNNGGGGGGGGGGG teaching tapes that I had to buy
And then I found this website...
JT
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GeorgeStGeorge
I've mentioned this in other threads, but I might elaborate some, here. When I took PFAL years ago, I thought that the keys to understanding the Bible were great. They made sense to me, a scientist. I was also told that questions were fine, because if my TC couldn't answer them, he would ask the BC, etc., until someone knew the answer. That person would send the answer down the line so that everyone would know. Open belligerence wasn't respected, but thoughtful questions were answered as best as people could. (I even wrote to VPW once, comparing "Uncle Harry Day" to Roman Catholic feasts. He sent me a very peaceful response. Although the gist of the response was "Uncle Harry Day is OK," I don't think it's a coincidence that the day was re-named the very next year.
Unfortunately, as the years rolled on, questions were not considered a desire to learn but a rebellion agains authority. Since I don't accept BS easily, I was branded a troublemaker and was reproved on a number of occasions. Of course, since I wasn't homosexual, had no debt, and gave above the tithe, there wasn't much they could oust me on.
Finally, I and my new fiancee (we had been engaged about a month) were dragged into a kangaroo court, where I was chastened for pridefully leading songs in Twig that almost nobody new, and for refusing to believe LCM's statement that the only reason for a space program is military dominance. A quick call to the LC confirmed my excommunication. My fiancee was given the choice of leaving me or TWI; she wisely chose the latter. We've been married for over six years and fellowship with other ex-wayfers in the Houston area.
:)-->
Of course, I was stunned when it happened, and I really didn't say much in my defense (not that it would have mattered much, I suppose). I did have a major "esprit d'escalier" a couple of days later, though. Part of the "gallery" at my tribunal was my TC, who worked for NASA. I'm sure she wasn't working on military secrets, so her involvement seemed a bit hypocritical. (Frankly, though, I find Psalm 19:1 a perfectly good reason for a space program.) Also a "Corps Grad" who had praised me for leading lesser-known songs a couple of weeks prior just sat there watching me be berated. I don't really blame him or my ex-TC, though. They were all scared to death of being booted themselves.
The group I presently fellowship with has no problems with questions. We just crack open the Bible, pull out our Greek texts and concordances, and go to work. Biblical RESEARCH -- what a concept!
:D-->
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def59
I left, because posting was taking too much of my time from other more nobler pursuits.
Oh, you meant twi, my bad.
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Tom Strange
def one! you have "nobler pursuits"?
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Refiner
Imbus posted:
Oakspear posted:
Hmm. I never heard of a church where displays of anger are considered acceptable behaviour.
Uncle Hairy posted:
That was funny.
:D-->
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WordWolf
Funny from here, but typical from there. People leaving were given a smear campaign to make a lawyer wince. You want to see some scary stuff, check out the links on the main page. Someone blamed a person's death by plane crash on their family's exit from the organization.
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Refiner
Hmm.
I dont want to highjack the thread WW, so perhaps just one question?...
Is the church high turnover, I mean, do people join and leave rapidly,say... within a handfull of years? Or are they in for decades?
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WordWolf
I'm not the best one to ask, but here's the impression I got.....
A) Starting time to early 80's...lots of people joined, more than left.
B) early 80's to late 80's....vpw hands over organization to lcm, and a number
of things happen, some of them due to a lack of confidence in that incompetent
holding the reins. Membership, at its peak around 1979, begins to drop in areas,
mostly from old-timers and higher-ups. Most members stick around.
C) 1989-1990. Tired of the past few years, lcm draws a line in the sand and
demands allegiance. 80% of the group leaves that year, with more to follow over
the next year.
D) 1990's. lcm's increasingly draconian policies kick some people out, and disgust
some others so they leave. lcm's classes, inferior to vpw's classes, are unable
to interest new people. Many more leave, very few join.
E) 2000's. lcm was fired due to lawsuits. The internet has crippled twi's
ability to draw new members without them knowing all the scandals. twi is
largely trying to find ways to draw new members, but it's composed almost entirely
of people 40 and older, with their children leaving twi at the first
opportunity. They can't relate to young folk, and older folk can see they have
nothing to offer. So, membership rolls continue to trickle downward.
So, those still in are probably long-timers...10 years or more, some for most
of their natural lives. They're still losing members faster than they can replace
them.
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JustThinking
Refiner quote:
"Is the church high turnover?"
I would say it's more high decline. They had a lot of people in the 70s but have been in decline for years. As for new members, most people look them up on the web and then decline to come.
Either way, they are in "decline."
For those who do come, most do not stay very long. In my final years, I saw almost NO new members at all. To follow their terminology, there are no "members" but the three members of the board of trustees who run the place. All else just "freely avail" themselves of fellowship. So let's call them followers.
To be considered an active follower, one must quickly take the basic instruction course called "The Foundational Class." During the waning days, most of the new students were the kids of old members. Once they turned 18, most did not attend unless they still lived with their parents.
JT
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Refiner
Yes JT.
Im doing some reading up on the movement now.
From what I see the mewmbership has crashed to just a few thousand.
This Martindale guy appears to be a dogmatic and abusive ******* who has driven everyone but the most diehard and desperate believers away.
I imagine they are telling themselves that when all the "fair weather" followers have been "tested, exposed and been "weeded out" they can rebuild from a small but very solid foundation.
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JustThinking
Ref,
Stunning accuracy! That is a message I heard prior to departing. The teaching theme was "the Faithful Remnant." Only us "True-blue, faithful, special people have stayed true to God's Word." Many comparisons were made to Paul near the end of Acts when so many had departed him. Although Craig Martindale more often compared himself to Timothy. In his "humble mode", the founder, Weirwille, was Paul and he was Timothy. True to the end. Unfortunately or fortunately, he was true until getting ejected.
My guess is this is not the first time you've heard this story?
JT
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