The definition of a lie depends on who in twitville to whom you are talking. I know of one woman (wife of a current limb coord) who always promoted that "you don't have to tell everything you know". For her, this was always in context of covering your foot. In my opinion, sometimes leaving out details purposefully can be as bad as lying.
I sure wouldn't call not remembering something correctly a lie.
my now healed hubby told me to Get control of my mind when I was crowning with child #2 reasy to fly out...HAHA---we laugh about it now----I ignored him...I controlled my mind very well...
Where I'm from we call those people assholes or retards, no offence to real assholes that serve a purpose of holding in or releasing bodily waste but those pseudo-assholes that are simply people who have the act of vomiting on que down to a real art. Of course also no offence to real retards who are of course born that way, not the pseudo-retards that think they are geniuses, and in reality have an IQ in the low double digits like around slobbering on themselves which is around 30 or 40 depending on if it's skilled or unskilled slobbering.
If someone posts on Greasespot and it gets misinterpreted I have seen it called a lie. I think a better way to handle it would be to correct the person who misinterpeted what you said before calling them a liar.
Whoa, WW, if he were my hubby, he woulda had to duck, lol!
I don't consider a mistaken statement to be a "lie." A lie might be made by commission, or by omission. It might be made in order to avoid getting caught, like children do. Or it might be made to cause harm, or to garner sympathy.
I guess the 3 things which rule how much my feathers get ruffled are: the age/maturity of the liar, the extent of the harm, and the motivation of the perpetrator.
quote: But Oak, it`s SO much more fun to get rightiously indignant, stomp around beating your chest crying foul. ;)-->
Rascal -- Yep, and sometimes I think those that do, are just advertising the fact that they did not *get any* the night before, are frustrated as hell, and looking to take it out on someone, anyone else!! :D-->
my now healed hubby told me to Get control of my mind when I was crowning with child #2 reasy to fly out...HAHA---we laugh about it now----I ignored him...I controlled my mind very well...
LOL...I try to make a habit of not telling someone what to do when I can't do what they're doing...I think giving birth is at the top of that list :D-->
The definition of a lie depends on who in twitville to whom you are talking....In my opinion, sometimes leaving out details purposefully can be as bad as lying.
I sure wouldn't call not remembering something correctly a lie.
I think it's the intent to deceive that makes it lying.
If, by leaving out critical information, you allow someone to think that a situation is different than what it is, that's lying.
If you are repeating information that you believe is true, you may be many things, but you're not lying.
Is something a lie simply because it does not equal absolute truth?
No.
Isn't it be possible to be mistaken?
Yes.
Isn't it possible to misinterpret events or motivations?
Yes.
Isn't it possible to be just plain stupid?
Yes.
To "lie" by definition deals with the quality of something being incorrect, me knowing it's incorrect and the intent of my using it as correct. Some definitions-
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
A falsehood uttered or acted for the purpose of deception; an intentional violation of truth; an untruth spoken with the intention to deceive.
So I could be wrong about something and it wouldn't be a lie unless I knew I was wrong and presented it as being true.
"socks is really dumb".
That would be a lie if I knew socks wasn't dumb, but I said he was anyway.
Which gets to opinion, I think Oaks.
"socks is dumb" could be an opinion, be contrary to fact, but still be an opinion. If I knew socks was smart but held an opinion contrary to the facts it would be a lie to say so. Some would argue otherwise, "that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it". True. And that might fall to your last question, isn't it possible to just be plain stupid? Sure, if I hold an opinion that contradicts the facts it could qualify as being stupid. So I might say "socks screwed me over big time, he's dishonest". That would be true if that was the case. But to say socks is dumb could be a lie in an of itself. One thing doesn't mean the other necessarily.
Yeah, I'd agree, telling someone that has an opinion about something "that's a lie!" is strong language, and probably incorrect.
I wanted to add I have in the past referred to the Way Intell Nationals Board of Trustees as "hamsters, gerbils and weasals" at different times. This isn't a lie in and of itself, I don't think. My case:
Hamsters - gerbils - that's the same thing, different words. Used as a metaphor it fits. Hamsters look cute but and bite the crap out of your finger if they're hungry. And they're always hungry, eating to the point they retain a fair amount of body fat.
So, they're fat little animals that may take a nip at your finger if you look like food. Plus they're not really all that motivated. Give them a wheel and they'll run on it for hours. While they appear to be stupid because of this they're really not, they're just perfectly happy to expend energy going nowhere.
In these ways I would submit the comparison of the BOT's to hamsters is accurate.
Weasals? Well, weasals are relatives of skunks, same animal family. I rest my case on this one.
Lies have to be deliberate. There are many possible motivations for doing so. TWI always said the spirit of lying would tell one truth for every 9 lies. Jon Lovitz made a good pathological liar on SNL. Getting the price wrong on an electric bill? Calling that a lie is at best hyperbole, at worst slander.
LOL! Socks! I agree wholeheartedly with your metaphors.
I remember craig teaching in one of the millions of classes I was subjected to that lies of omission are okay because the midwives lied about the Judean women giving birth before they could kill the sons.
He also said that it was "okay" to call TWI a "church" because that was the label they had to use for tax purposes but that we knew the truth and that we weren't a religion or church.
Oak, I always rounded numbers off - I'd say the power bill was "about $25" and if I rounded the wrong way I was lying or exaggerating. -->
If I have mis-represented anything craig taught, then I humbly apologize. It is the way I remember it being taught and not an intentional lie. :D-->
If you tell a mistruth, whether you know it is or not, it is a lie.
But that does not make YOU a liar.
Look at all the well-meaning people that forward urban legend emails, such as "Bill Gates is going to send me to Disneyland!" or "Watch out for strangers that tell you you dropped $5!".
They are propagating lies. That doesn't make them liars.
So you need to differentiate between lies and liars.
There is a *huge* difference between these 2 statements:
"You are lying"
and
"That's a lie" (almost the same as "that's not true" but with more emotional weight)
In some cases in some posts that have been referred to in this thread, it perhaps would have been more appropriate for one party to say to the other "that's not true" rather than "that's a lie".
Yes, a lie is intentional. The liar knows the truth but deliberately states an untruth. It's the deliberate intent that makes it a lie.
People may speak untruths but they could be misinformed which means it's not a lie.
It's very simple but in TWI it sure got twisted.
My branch leader told me I was a liar because I said I wanted to go WOW for my next assignment and then later I changed my mind. That made me a liar according to him.
To lie is to make a deliberately inaccurate statement.
Catcup recently called me a liar for saying she was a long time staffer, and "expelled." (I also added an unflattering description of her status as a "pampered lap-dog.") She said it was a lie, that she had only been on staff from 82 to 83 - or something like that, and had left voluntarily - in fact, Cummins had begged them to stay.
Now, if you're not particularly happy where you are, that can still be a very long time, but I had the impression she'd been there much longer. I apologized, saying I'd got it wrong, but she came back and said it did'nt justify the "lie."
Well, I found the post, if you'll permit me. I don't particularly like Catcup, no secret there, so I don't read her posts, unless they are part of a thread I'm following. But this one gave me a pretty clear, if inaccurate, impression of her tenure at WayWorld. If I'd read other posts, I'd have noticed something missing. Judge for yourselves:
quote:Originally posted by Catcup:
Geeze
My husband and I got our eyes smacked wide open when we went on staff in 1982 and saw how entrenched the corruption was. We left, went back to Chicago and prayed for a change back then. Even tried to enlighten a few choice people about the undercurrents at HQ and all that got us was ostracized-- back then they didn't M&A you, they allowed you to come to meetings-- even required it-- and snubbed you to your face. We stuck around to help Craig pick up the pieces after POP because he indicated to me his sincerity to want to change... and all it got us was a lot of hell and headache in the longrun, and we stuck around 15 years longer than we should have.
Now the remark about being ostracized rather than M&A led me to think she'd been booted. Was it unfair to base my judgement on that post alone? Sloppy maybe, but it only confirmed an impression I'd had for a while, based only the few of her posts, and RG's, that I'd read. I didn't really think of the time line - the "15 years" just stuck in my mind.
Is Catcup's statement "deliberately inaccurate?" No, she just left a few parts out. Was mine deliberately inaccurate? No, it wasn't either - in my opinion.
Now the "pampered" thing, I can see, might not occur to a staffer working for Howard Allen's wife Emogene, the soap opera-lovin, anal-retentive, psycho-puppy boss from hell. But I was referring to the "status" so important to many Corps, clergy and staffers. After all, TWI was and is nothing if not a "caste society." Anything at all could be considered "pampering," in the atmosphere of deprivation TWI leadership created there. Ego-perks, in a cult = pampering. Being on the research team afforded that, if not from the top, at least from the larger household. That's how I see it.
Lie? A subjective call? Truth with a lower-case 't?'
This all came up because, well, she just hadda offer her (negative) unsolicited and off-topic opinion about myself. All of those suggesting I would be the better person for not responding, I wonder if you've been giving her the same, sage advice. Maybe.
Anyway, to mischaracterize someone can sometimes be a lie, and so I thought she was lying about me. What a tangled web.
Hope this thread stays on topic. It could be worthwhile.
There really isn't any question that the Way leadership has lied to the followers numerous times and I am sure they somehow believe that it is ok with God (probably using some Old Testament record they have rationalized and/or intepreted wrong). Knowing this about the Way's behavior reminded me of a quote I heard years ago (not sure of the author):
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Nottawayfer
The definition of a lie depends on who in twitville to whom you are talking. I know of one woman (wife of a current limb coord) who always promoted that "you don't have to tell everything you know". For her, this was always in context of covering your foot. In my opinion, sometimes leaving out details purposefully can be as bad as lying.
I sure wouldn't call not remembering something correctly a lie.
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washingtonweather
yeah --waybrain....
my now healed hubby told me to Get control of my mind when I was crowning with child #2 reasy to fly out...HAHA---we laugh about it now----I ignored him...I controlled my mind very well...
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Seth R.
Oakspear,
Where I'm from we call those people assholes or retards, no offence to real assholes that serve a purpose of holding in or releasing bodily waste but those pseudo-assholes that are simply people who have the act of vomiting on que down to a real art. Of course also no offence to real retards who are of course born that way, not the pseudo-retards that think they are geniuses, and in reality have an IQ in the low double digits like around slobbering on themselves which is around 30 or 40 depending on if it's skilled or unskilled slobbering.
Seth
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Stayed Too Long
If someone posts on Greasespot and it gets misinterpreted I have seen it called a lie. I think a better way to handle it would be to correct the person who misinterpeted what you said before calling them a liar.
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rascal
But Oak, it`s SO much more fun to get rightiously indignant, stomp around beating your chest crying foul :-)
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shazdancer
Whoa, WW, if he were my hubby, he woulda had to duck, lol!
I don't consider a mistaken statement to be a "lie." A lie might be made by commission, or by omission. It might be made in order to avoid getting caught, like children do. Or it might be made to cause harm, or to garner sympathy.
I guess the 3 things which rule how much my feathers get ruffled are: the age/maturity of the liar, the extent of the harm, and the motivation of the perpetrator.
Regards,
Shaz
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dmiller
Rascal -- Yep, and sometimes I think those that do, are just advertising the fact that they did not *get any* the night before, are frustrated as hell, and looking to take it out on someone, anyone else!!
:D-->
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Oakspear
Seth:
I am now cleaning orange juice off my monitor after spewing it while laughing at your post
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
If, by leaving out critical information, you allow someone to think that a situation is different than what it is, that's lying.
If you are repeating information that you believe is true, you may be many things, but you're not lying.
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socks
Is something a lie simply because it does not equal absolute truth?
No.
Isn't it be possible to be mistaken?
Yes.
Isn't it possible to misinterpret events or motivations?
Yes.
Isn't it possible to be just plain stupid?
Yes.
To "lie" by definition deals with the quality of something being incorrect, me knowing it's incorrect and the intent of my using it as correct. Some definitions-
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.
A falsehood uttered or acted for the purpose of deception; an intentional violation of truth; an untruth spoken with the intention to deceive.
So I could be wrong about something and it wouldn't be a lie unless I knew I was wrong and presented it as being true.
"socks is really dumb".
That would be a lie if I knew socks wasn't dumb, but I said he was anyway.
Which gets to opinion, I think Oaks.
"socks is dumb" could be an opinion, be contrary to fact, but still be an opinion. If I knew socks was smart but held an opinion contrary to the facts it would be a lie to say so. Some would argue otherwise, "that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it". True. And that might fall to your last question, isn't it possible to just be plain stupid? Sure, if I hold an opinion that contradicts the facts it could qualify as being stupid. So I might say "socks screwed me over big time, he's dishonest". That would be true if that was the case. But to say socks is dumb could be a lie in an of itself. One thing doesn't mean the other necessarily.
Yeah, I'd agree, telling someone that has an opinion about something "that's a lie!" is strong language, and probably incorrect.
*just saw your last post up Oaks, I'd agree.
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socks
I wanted to add I have in the past referred to the Way Intell Nationals Board of Trustees as "hamsters, gerbils and weasals" at different times. This isn't a lie in and of itself, I don't think. My case:
Hamsters - gerbils - that's the same thing, different words. Used as a metaphor it fits. Hamsters look cute but and bite the crap out of your finger if they're hungry. And they're always hungry, eating to the point they retain a fair amount of body fat.
So, they're fat little animals that may take a nip at your finger if you look like food. Plus they're not really all that motivated. Give them a wheel and they'll run on it for hours. While they appear to be stupid because of this they're really not, they're just perfectly happy to expend energy going nowhere.
In these ways I would submit the comparison of the BOT's to hamsters is accurate.
Weasals? Well, weasals are relatives of skunks, same animal family. I rest my case on this one.
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dabobbada
So, Soques knows the origions of the skunkpelt then.
I guess that shows how dumb he is!
:D-->
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johniam
Lies have to be deliberate. There are many possible motivations for doing so. TWI always said the spirit of lying would tell one truth for every 9 lies. Jon Lovitz made a good pathological liar on SNL. Getting the price wrong on an electric bill? Calling that a lie is at best hyperbole, at worst slander.
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GarthP2000
Yeah? ... Well, how do you know that they weren't lying to you when they told you that, hmmm?
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Belle
LOL! Socks! I agree wholeheartedly with your metaphors.
I remember craig teaching in one of the millions of classes I was subjected to that lies of omission are okay because the midwives lied about the Judean women giving birth before they could kill the sons.
He also said that it was "okay" to call TWI a "church" because that was the label they had to use for tax purposes but that we knew the truth and that we weren't a religion or church.
Oak, I always rounded numbers off - I'd say the power bill was "about $25" and if I rounded the wrong way I was lying or exaggerating.
-->
If I have mis-represented anything craig taught, then I humbly apologize. It is the way I remember it being taught and not an intentional lie.
:D-->
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Steve!
If you tell a mistruth, whether you know it is or not, it is a lie.
But that does not make YOU a liar.
Look at all the well-meaning people that forward urban legend emails, such as "Bill Gates is going to send me to Disneyland!" or "Watch out for strangers that tell you you dropped $5!".
They are propagating lies. That doesn't make them liars.
So you need to differentiate between lies and liars.
There is a *huge* difference between these 2 statements:
"You are lying"
and
"That's a lie" (almost the same as "that's not true" but with more emotional weight)
In some cases in some posts that have been referred to in this thread, it perhaps would have been more appropriate for one party to say to the other "that's not true" rather than "that's a lie".
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oldiesman
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outandabout
Yes, a lie is intentional. The liar knows the truth but deliberately states an untruth. It's the deliberate intent that makes it a lie.
People may speak untruths but they could be misinformed which means it's not a lie.
It's very simple but in TWI it sure got twisted.
My branch leader told me I was a liar because I said I wanted to go WOW for my next assignment and then later I changed my mind. That made me a liar according to him.
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Belle
O&A but if you had said you were NOT going to go and THEN changed your mind it would have been okay.
;)-->
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satori001
How about a real-life example?
To lie is to make a deliberately inaccurate statement.
Catcup recently called me a liar for saying she was a long time staffer, and "expelled." (I also added an unflattering description of her status as a "pampered lap-dog.") She said it was a lie, that she had only been on staff from 82 to 83 - or something like that, and had left voluntarily - in fact, Cummins had begged them to stay.
Now, if you're not particularly happy where you are, that can still be a very long time, but I had the impression she'd been there much longer. I apologized, saying I'd got it wrong, but she came back and said it did'nt justify the "lie."
Well, I found the post, if you'll permit me. I don't particularly like Catcup, no secret there, so I don't read her posts, unless they are part of a thread I'm following. But this one gave me a pretty clear, if inaccurate, impression of her tenure at WayWorld. If I'd read other posts, I'd have noticed something missing. Judge for yourselves:
Now the remark about being ostracized rather than M&A led me to think she'd been booted. Was it unfair to base my judgement on that post alone? Sloppy maybe, but it only confirmed an impression I'd had for a while, based only the few of her posts, and RG's, that I'd read. I didn't really think of the time line - the "15 years" just stuck in my mind.Is Catcup's statement "deliberately inaccurate?" No, she just left a few parts out. Was mine deliberately inaccurate? No, it wasn't either - in my opinion.
Now the "pampered" thing, I can see, might not occur to a staffer working for Howard Allen's wife Emogene, the soap opera-lovin, anal-retentive, psycho-puppy boss from hell. But I was referring to the "status" so important to many Corps, clergy and staffers. After all, TWI was and is nothing if not a "caste society." Anything at all could be considered "pampering," in the atmosphere of deprivation TWI leadership created there. Ego-perks, in a cult = pampering. Being on the research team afforded that, if not from the top, at least from the larger household. That's how I see it.
Lie? A subjective call? Truth with a lower-case 't?'
This all came up because, well, she just hadda offer her (negative) unsolicited and off-topic opinion about myself. All of those suggesting I would be the better person for not responding, I wonder if you've been giving her the same, sage advice. Maybe.
Anyway, to mischaracterize someone can sometimes be a lie, and so I thought she was lying about me. What a tangled web.
Hope this thread stays on topic. It could be worthwhile.
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Paradiseden
There really isn't any question that the Way leadership has lied to the followers numerous times and I am sure they somehow believe that it is ok with God (probably using some Old Testament record they have rationalized and/or intepreted wrong). Knowing this about the Way's behavior reminded me of a quote I heard years ago (not sure of the author):
"Everyone is right in their own mind"
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socks
dabobbada, I lay no claim to the skunkpelt!
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socks
Belle, thanks. I just wanted to square up my animal metaphors as I may use them again.
:D-->
This is an interesting topic. I think there's a few twists to it that deal directly with some of TWI's beliefs and actions.
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