The only thing that I can contribute is that I firmly believe that God has not and does not set up situations where if we do not measure up, someone dies.
That would be fear motivation....and total manipulation.
How many people in TWI were made to feal guilty because they weren't "believing" enough to get well. When my first child died I wondered where I had gone wrong and why my believing wasn't big enough for God to heal my son. This way of thinking is very damaging.
Oz,
Yeah,
I know.
Life has its limitations.
So does the mind our understanding these limitations.
Big enough, long enough, cried enough, prayed enough, laughed enough, good enough, "believing enough"~~~ try enough is enough ~~~
He was born premtature (28 weeks). He had lung problems. At 5 months of age he seemed to be doing well and we were all set to take him home from the hospital, but he took a turn for the worse and eventually died at 7 months of age (believe it or not it was on good friday the 13th April 1990).
They said that the steriods that they had given him to boost his lungs initially had caused him damage to other vital organs. I don't think they use the same treatments for premmie babys now because it seems survival rates are a lot higher nowadays thankfully.
awww (((oz bird))) I think it is damnable that in addition to our losses suffered, we were required to bear the burden of guilt for our spiritual shortcomings.
This was a very damaging teaching, and dead wrong.
I think its yes, no, and maybe (or rather, I have no idea).
Let's say you are stupid enough not to have a broken leg properly set, thinking God's gonna do it because he owes you or something. Let's say you end up losing it.
Its still yes, no or maybe.
If you can't rise beyond the error that you have been taught, I would blame the teacher.
If you really know better, you're on your own.
But I still swear by number three though- I probably will never really know. I often tell myself this even when I THINK I've got the answer.
Its a hundred times easier, and more loving and merciful, NOT to try to fix blame- unless we are dealing with some really stinking bad negligence- like people saying, "throw away your medicine, God will heal you.." or some such nonsense. At least in my opinion.
Jesus emphatically contrasted Himself with the devil as complete opposites and in John 10:10, He states that the thief (satan) comes to steal, kill and destroy. In utter and complete constrast to the devil's motives, He states "I am come that they might have life and have it more abundantly."
Why do some people not get healed of their diseases? I think the best answer is "I don't know." I do believe that not all healing takes place in this life. I was healed once of a disease when I prayed to be healed, and then when I was diagnosed with diabetes, I was not, at least partly because it was 1994 and I was too ashamed to ask.
I think that the condemnation TWI showered on those who were not healed or who lost a dear one as Ozbird did, a child, was wrong, wrong, wrong.
See, it interfered with the "name it and claim it" doctrine of TWI. And you know, sometimes poo-poo happens. One thing as a believer in Christ I comfort myself with is that for me, this world is as bad as it will ever get. That's not to say it doesn't suck like an open chest wound sometimes.
How many people in TWI were made to feel guilty because they weren't "believing" enough to get well.
Wayyyy Too Dammmmm Many!!!
Twi laid the burden on everyone but themselves. If something good did not happen from a bad situaton -- it was your fault. To me, it is the ultimate cop-out to teach something along these lines and then (when not able to deliver), to blame the person involved, instead of the skewed teaching that is promoted.
*Believing works for saint and sinner alike*. Rightttt. -->
What a bunch of hogwash. Docvic and his *immutabile law of believing* is nothing more than a *spiritualized* version of teachings from folks like Napoleon Hill, Og Mandigo, and W. Clement Stone -- *super salesmen* who promoted the power of the mind over matter (ie -- your daily circumstances).
Think And Grow Rich. PMA (Positive Mental Attitude). That was what they promoted, and taught. Shoot -- just insert *believing equals receiving*, and docvic would be right up there with all these other guys, who have been so highly revered as *motivational speakers* for so many years -- even after their deaths.
quote:
Mat 6:27Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
When this can be successfully accomplished, I will believe in believing equals receiving. Until that time, I choose to believe that God does things as He wishes, and that it is up to me to trust Him, with no fault laid at my doorstep if the answer I wanted did not come to pass.
There is nothing wrong in believing God's promises for deliverance. But I do not believe in my own believing, over His ability to do.
Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
When this can be successfully accomplished, I will believe in believing equals receiving. Until that time, I choose to believe that God does things as He wishes, and that it is up to me to trust Him, with no fault laid at my doorstep if the answer I wanted did not come to pass.
There is nothing wrong in believing God's promises for deliverance. But I do not believe in my own believing, over His ability to do.
David
Thank you David for your comments. Reading this just did me a world of good. Best teaching I've heard on the subject ever!
Anyone ever notice, that when something bad happened to you, it was your fault, because of your believing-- and when something good happened to you, it was because of the household or the leadership?
In a reproof epistle thinly disguised as a birthday card, my husband was told by his innie brother that the only reason we were able to conceive a child was because of "the household."
You are spot on about your comments regarding miserable comforters.
I still can't get over the fact that LCM spent hours teaching from the book of Job about the miserable comforters, yet in another breath he would rave on about how some poor woman on staff had died in childbirth, and it was all her fault. Even when I was listening to it at the time, I couldn't quite believe my ears.
Yes there I'm sure there were and still are a lot of well meaning people at TWI (we were among them), but it is up to us to warn them of the danger of the damaging teaching that is STILL being taught at TWI.
TWI could have re-examined their teaching content when LCM left, but they didn't. They are still promoting his teaching. WHY IS THAT?
We have to keep plugging away until we get the message through. TWI as an organisation is corrupt and not a good group to be a part of.
"There is nothing wrong in believing God's promises for deliverance. But I do not believe in my own believing, over His ability to do."
Amen to that.
Do you think that VPW was just following the trend of the time with Dale Carnegies Power of Positive Thinking (I think that's his name), and just latched onto a good way to suck people in?
I do not have any children and I have no way of knowing how much pain and heartache that must be and to be led to think it's your fault it just down right devilish and pure evil! It's so infuriating, I don't even have words to write.
I am sooooo sorry for your loss and even sorrier that it was multiplied thanks to TWI.
David, I agree, that was absolutely wonderful and perfectly expressed. I had forgotten about that scripture and certainly never thought of it in light of dispelling the "law of believing" b.s. :)--> Thank you.
How many people in TWI were made to feal guilty because they weren't "believing" enough to get well. When my first child died I wondered where I had gone wrong and why my believing wasn't big enough for God to heal my son. This way of thinking is very damaging.
Oz,
Yeah,
I know.
Life has its limitations.
So does the mind our understanding these limitations.
Big enough, long enough, cried enough, prayed enough, laughed enough, good enough, "believing enough"~~~ try enough is enough ~~~
How did your first child die?
What were the medical reasons?
quote]
Forgive me ozbirdau,
I meant my questions
How did your first child die?
What were the medical reasons?
as rhetorical and not for details.
I was empathising with you regarding the believing enough and especially in reference to when ones child dies according to TWI standards.
Anyone ever notice, that when something bad happened to you, it was your fault, because of your believing-- and when something good happened to you, it was because of the household or the leadership?
I'd like to add to this: Anything bad ever happened to leadership and it was because they were being attacked by the adversary for their stong stand on the Word or because someone in the fellowship was a conduit for the adversary...
What a mind (rhymes with puck, begins with 'f') it was....
I don't think I've ever written about this before, but here it is:
I, too, lost a baby with my first husband. It was rather early in the pregnancy - of course it happened after we had announced that we were pregnant. It happened at the beginning of the second trimester. I remember my husband was very, very upset about it all - he was much more emotional than I was. Don't get me wrong - I was upset but he was... over the top with grief.
A little over a year later, when we were in our "exit interview" with Rev. T#orpe at HQ (I'll call it what it was - we were getting kicked off staff and they were taking a romp through our private lives) - hubby confessed he had been "renting movies" at about that same time that I had the miscarriage. He thought that it happened because he was "out of alignment and harmony" "out of fellowship" whatever you want to call it - he thought HE was the reason for the miscarriage. It was then that I understood his "grief".
Thinking that YOU are sooooo responsible for such things is really a form of egotism, isn't it? It would be like saying YOU are responsible for the sun rising, the rain falling or the car not starting. Sometimes things happen. That's LIFE.
WE can put whatever or whoever we chose in the mix and it still doesnt change many many situations or things.
I do not think I can believe God because I for one do not understand God.
Who does?
really? or is just some bad trip of emotionalism or religion that man made a plan about for real?
be honest explain it all to me if you understand why and whatever a ALmighty being spirit or whatever does when where and why.
no it is "written" for us to search and find the perfect answer that fits the mood or arrangement we are in now.
If God is Love then why do people hurt.
If God has defeated HIS OWN enemy with the Saviour of mankind in Jesus christ, then why must we struggle and fight still to live with fleeting amounts of peace?
A story has been told. It is far from over or even beginning... I do trust God has me in His ideals and plans and that is good enough now.
Im toasted on figuring out the answers for what life is.. I didnt start the fire..and I just chose to trust He who did come what may.
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excathedra
very damaging
and i'm so sorry i don't have the words
many many hugs
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Cindy!
I agree with ex...I don't have the words, either.
The only thing that I can contribute is that I firmly believe that God has not and does not set up situations where if we do not measure up, someone dies.
That would be fear motivation....and total manipulation.
No way.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Oz,
Yeah,
I know.
Life has its limitations.
So does the mind our understanding these limitations.
Big enough, long enough, cried enough, prayed enough, laughed enough, good enough, "believing enough"~~~ try enough is enough ~~~
How did your first child die?
What were the medical reasons?
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ozbirdau
He was born premtature (28 weeks). He had lung problems. At 5 months of age he seemed to be doing well and we were all set to take him home from the hospital, but he took a turn for the worse and eventually died at 7 months of age (believe it or not it was on good friday the 13th April 1990).
They said that the steriods that they had given him to boost his lungs initially had caused him damage to other vital organs. I don't think they use the same treatments for premmie babys now because it seems survival rates are a lot higher nowadays thankfully.
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rascal
awww (((oz bird))) I think it is damnable that in addition to our losses suffered, we were required to bear the burden of guilt for our spiritual shortcomings.
This was a very damaging teaching, and dead wrong.
I am sorry for your loss.
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WordWolf
Riddle:
"Why did Job have trouble sleeping?"
"He had miserable comforters."
======
Job's miserable comforters saw a man suffering,
having suffered financial disaster,
loss of family,
and physical affliction.
What was their response?
"Oh, you must have been a terrible sinner!
It's your fault!"
Kicked him when he was down.
GOD said Job was "BLAMELESS."
vpw said Job was to be blamed-
it was Job's "failure to believe" that resulted in horrible things.
vpw, lcm, pfal and twi as a whole have placed themselves firmly in the
"miserable comforters" category.
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Ham
"Is it our fault?"
I think its yes, no, and maybe (or rather, I have no idea).
Let's say you are stupid enough not to have a broken leg properly set, thinking God's gonna do it because he owes you or something. Let's say you end up losing it.
Its still yes, no or maybe.
If you can't rise beyond the error that you have been taught, I would blame the teacher.
If you really know better, you're on your own.
But I still swear by number three though- I probably will never really know. I often tell myself this even when I THINK I've got the answer.
Its a hundred times easier, and more loving and merciful, NOT to try to fix blame- unless we are dealing with some really stinking bad negligence- like people saying, "throw away your medicine, God will heal you.." or some such nonsense. At least in my opinion.
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Watered Garden
Jesus emphatically contrasted Himself with the devil as complete opposites and in John 10:10, He states that the thief (satan) comes to steal, kill and destroy. In utter and complete constrast to the devil's motives, He states "I am come that they might have life and have it more abundantly."
Why do some people not get healed of their diseases? I think the best answer is "I don't know." I do believe that not all healing takes place in this life. I was healed once of a disease when I prayed to be healed, and then when I was diagnosed with diabetes, I was not, at least partly because it was 1994 and I was too ashamed to ask.
I think that the condemnation TWI showered on those who were not healed or who lost a dear one as Ozbird did, a child, was wrong, wrong, wrong.
See, it interfered with the "name it and claim it" doctrine of TWI. And you know, sometimes poo-poo happens. One thing as a believer in Christ I comfort myself with is that for me, this world is as bad as it will ever get. That's not to say it doesn't suck like an open chest wound sometimes.
WG
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satori001
What if you believe in the law of believing?
If you do, you believe that "the issues of life" are the result of believing.
You must also believe that death is the result of believing.
If that's what you think, wouldn't you want to warn someone? Wouldn't you want to teach them, so they don't suffer again?
I'm not saying that was TWI's motivation. Only that people stuck in TWI doctrine may have behaved badly, but with good intentions.
I think it was more a matter of how they said it, than what they said.
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Catcup
I just simply cannot buy TWI's doctrine that believing is an immutable law.
IMO it was just one more way by which they could manipulate, control, and blame people.
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outandabout
It must be devastating to lose a child, and then to be taught that you are responsible is straight from the pit of he11.
It's like the Pharisees that Jesus said "laid burdens too heavy to be born" on people.
TWI has become a bunch of Pharisees.
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dmiller
Wayyyy Too Dammmmm Many!!!
Twi laid the burden on everyone but themselves. If something good did not happen from a bad situaton -- it was your fault. To me, it is the ultimate cop-out to teach something along these lines and then (when not able to deliver), to blame the person involved, instead of the skewed teaching that is promoted.
*Believing works for saint and sinner alike*. Rightttt.
-->
What a bunch of hogwash. Docvic and his *immutabile law of believing* is nothing more than a *spiritualized* version of teachings from folks like Napoleon Hill, Og Mandigo, and W. Clement Stone -- *super salesmen* who promoted the power of the mind over matter (ie -- your daily circumstances).
Think And Grow Rich. PMA (Positive Mental Attitude). That was what they promoted, and taught. Shoot -- just insert *believing equals receiving*, and docvic would be right up there with all these other guys, who have been so highly revered as *motivational speakers* for so many years -- even after their deaths.
When this can be successfully accomplished, I will believe in believing equals receiving. Until that time, I choose to believe that God does things as He wishes, and that it is up to me to trust Him, with no fault laid at my doorstep if the answer I wanted did not come to pass.
There is nothing wrong in believing God's promises for deliverance. But I do not believe in my own believing, over His ability to do.
David
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napkinlady
Thank you David for your comments. Reading this just did me a world of good. Best teaching I've heard on the subject ever!
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Catcup
Amen and amen!
Anyone ever notice, that when something bad happened to you, it was your fault, because of your believing-- and when something good happened to you, it was because of the household or the leadership?
In a reproof epistle thinly disguised as a birthday card, my husband was told by his innie brother that the only reason we were able to conceive a child was because of "the household."
Anybody else ever get that kind of crap?
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ex10
Oz
I can relate to your loss in a way. I didn't loose a child, but had a 2nd trimester miscarriage that totally did me in.
Sometimes things happen, and they are just tragic. And all our prayers don't seem to help much, and they seem wasted, but they aren't.
Even though your precious son didn't have much time on this earth, there is hope.
He belonged to you, and you belong to Him.
It will be made right, some day.
Love you dearest.
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ozbirdau
Wordwolf,
"GOD said Job was "BLAMELESS."
vpw said Job was to be blamed-"
You are spot on about your comments regarding miserable comforters.
I still can't get over the fact that LCM spent hours teaching from the book of Job about the miserable comforters, yet in another breath he would rave on about how some poor woman on staff had died in childbirth, and it was all her fault. Even when I was listening to it at the time, I couldn't quite believe my ears.
But then LCM was the master of hypocrisy.
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ozbirdau
Satori,
Yes there I'm sure there were and still are a lot of well meaning people at TWI (we were among them), but it is up to us to warn them of the danger of the damaging teaching that is STILL being taught at TWI.
TWI could have re-examined their teaching content when LCM left, but they didn't. They are still promoting his teaching. WHY IS THAT?
We have to keep plugging away until we get the message through. TWI as an organisation is corrupt and not a good group to be a part of.
Regards, OZ
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ozbirdau
dmiller,
"There is nothing wrong in believing God's promises for deliverance. But I do not believe in my own believing, over His ability to do."
Amen to that.
Do you think that VPW was just following the trend of the time with Dale Carnegies Power of Positive Thinking (I think that's his name), and just latched onto a good way to suck people in?
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ozbirdau
By the way thanks everybody for your words of encouragement.
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Belle
(((((ozbirdau)))))
I do not have any children and I have no way of knowing how much pain and heartache that must be and to be led to think it's your fault it just down right devilish and pure evil! It's so infuriating, I don't even have words to write.
I am sooooo sorry for your loss and even sorrier that it was multiplied thanks to TWI.
David, I agree, that was absolutely wonderful and perfectly expressed. I had forgotten about that scripture and certainly never thought of it in light of dispelling the "law of believing" b.s.
:)--> Thank you.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
ozbirdau,
forgive me for being hasty from my point of view my response to you
my wife & i had a child that was still born
9 months worth of baby
twi considered William Ryan not worthy a twi funeral since he did not actually have a breath in this life
oh the details of such a time still heralds to this day
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ChasUFarley
I'd like to add to this: Anything bad ever happened to leadership and it was because they were being attacked by the adversary for their stong stand on the Word or because someone in the fellowship was a conduit for the adversary...
What a mind (rhymes with puck, begins with 'f') it was....
I don't think I've ever written about this before, but here it is:
I, too, lost a baby with my first husband. It was rather early in the pregnancy - of course it happened after we had announced that we were pregnant. It happened at the beginning of the second trimester. I remember my husband was very, very upset about it all - he was much more emotional than I was. Don't get me wrong - I was upset but he was... over the top with grief.
A little over a year later, when we were in our "exit interview" with Rev. T#orpe at HQ (I'll call it what it was - we were getting kicked off staff and they were taking a romp through our private lives) - hubby confessed he had been "renting movies" at about that same time that I had the miscarriage. He thought that it happened because he was "out of alignment and harmony" "out of fellowship" whatever you want to call it - he thought HE was the reason for the miscarriage. It was then that I understood his "grief".
Thinking that YOU are sooooo responsible for such things is really a form of egotism, isn't it? It would be like saying YOU are responsible for the sun rising, the rain falling or the car not starting. Sometimes things happen. That's LIFE.
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mj412
I believe this entire world is out of control.
WE can put whatever or whoever we chose in the mix and it still doesnt change many many situations or things.
I do not think I can believe God because I for one do not understand God.
Who does?
really? or is just some bad trip of emotionalism or religion that man made a plan about for real?
be honest explain it all to me if you understand why and whatever a ALmighty being spirit or whatever does when where and why.
no it is "written" for us to search and find the perfect answer that fits the mood or arrangement we are in now.
If God is Love then why do people hurt.
If God has defeated HIS OWN enemy with the Saviour of mankind in Jesus christ, then why must we struggle and fight still to live with fleeting amounts of peace?
A story has been told. It is far from over or even beginning... I do trust God has me in His ideals and plans and that is good enough now.
Im toasted on figuring out the answers for what life is.. I didnt start the fire..and I just chose to trust He who did come what may.
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