Yeah, I don't think my God preoccupies Himself with the 30-year-old sins of Victor Paul Wierwille...
Does Yours?
From what I remember, OM, to your God a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. So what does that make 30yrs? Nothing. To the God of the Bible it is as if it just happened. I would also suggest that it is impossible for a being that is all knowing, all powerful, omni-present, and most importantly infinite to become preoccupied with anything.
Perhaps your God is none of these things?
Perhaps yours is one that others here have suggested? Those sins would certainly not be a concern of his.
....His [Leonard's] books were printed under the corporate name "Canadian Christian Press."
His [VPW's] books were published under the corporate name "American Christian Press."
I had heard about the ficitonal names (Johnny Jumpup, et al) but had not heard about the "Canadian Christian Press" thing. What a mindblower. Weirwille had no shame at all.
I do recall once in my early Way days asking what other publications were available through the American Christian Press since it sounded to me like a general publishing house for christian publications. I was never told that it was a Way company and worse that it was an organization that published only the "best" works hence its catalogue was so small in comparison. So even back then the deception was there. I simply did not know enough to question it. But those who answered my question were entirely comfortable leaving me with the idea that it was an independent company that published only the cream of the crop.
According to twi's book, Born Again to Serve, Mrs. Wierwille documents the dynamic ministry of B.G. Leonard that was originating from Calgary, Alberta Canada. Apparently young vpw had heard enough to convince him that B.G. Leonard's class on "Receiving the holy spirit" was most needful to learn about the workings of God.
In March of 1953, young wierwille phoned BG and asked to be included in his next class. On such short notice, BG told vpw that he was not welcome to attend the next class. Well, vpw (knowing the start date of the class) got a plane ticket and flew into Calgary anyway....and BG confronted vpw at his dooor. After consideration, young wierwille was allowed to be a new student in BG's class.
In June/July of 1953, dorothy and don accompanied vpw to the NEXT BG LEONARD CLASS....dorothy and don were considered new students. Vpw was designated as a grad of this class.
BG had class pictures taken after each class to document these classes and his ministry's progress.
THREE MONTHS LATER.....in October of 1953, vpw assembled his first "pfal class" but no syllabi, no materials, nothing was given to the new students of this class. Wierwille used BG LEONARD'S WORK AND CLASS FORMAT and presented the material as his own. As documented in twi's history, vpw literally STOLE BG'S CLASS AND MATERIAL and used this as the cornerstone work for "his" work.
Later, Dr. Higgins from Chicago introduced young vpw to the research work of Dr. Bullinger and gave him the Companion Bible as a gift. As wierwille studied and devoured Bullinger's research and work, wierwille engrafted major components to prop up his own ministry work......and pfal crawled forth.
With a canned product in hand by 1967/68.....vpw went searching for the youthful Christians and found growing works in New York and California. At the age of 52 or so, wierwille was savy to working a crowd and swaying opinion. After all, he proclaimed of himself to be The Teacher.
Now, this twi-history fits like "a hand in a glove." The "hand" out of BG Leonard's ministry.....fit nicely into the concealing "glove" of wierwille.
Raffy, I think you may be treading on False Accusation territory.
What is your definition of "whitewashing sins"??
-->
Plagiarism is thievery: you treat it with "so what?" Whitewash. It doesn't matter. What difference does it make? Do you think God is going to give you extra points for knowing VPW's sins? blah blah blah...
Dude, sin is sin. Pointing it out is not dwelling on it, and dismissing accounts of sin out of some self-pious notion of "righteousness" is not godly.
"Take a chill pill" is whitewashing, by the way.
And no, def, that was not directed at you. I was quoting it as one of the stupider things I've read here in a long time.
"Take a chill pill" is not a godly response to someone who's the victim of theft.
Wierwille's purported personal ministry was based on and almost completely composed of lies. TWI was and is based on those lies and has continued in them and added to them.
That doesn't mean that nothing Wierwille ever said was true or that nothing TWI ever taught or promoted or currently teaches and promotes is true. What it means is that none of it can be trusted to be true or even honest. (There is such a thing as an honest mistake.)
That is important, not in order to trash Wierwille or TWI, as such, but because many people based much of their lives, and many decisions in their lives, on other people's fraudulent claims and dishonest, self-serving pretentions of godliness. Many people still do. In order to make honest, enlightened decisions now, they need to at least understand the dishonesty upon which some of their previous decisions were based.
Although I have "chucked the whole thing," I'm not advocating that others do that. I do advocate that they look at cold, hard facts and realize that much of what they believe or believed is based on fraud. What they do after that is up to them.
On top of which, I have trouble believing that someone who has no problem dredging up the centuries-old sins of the Catholic Church thinks there's somehow something unforgiving about recognizing the truth of 30-year-old sins.
In other words...Wierwille was a complete and shameless fraud. He not only stole BG's class, but he used his position as "the teacher" as a springboard into seducing young girls in the back of his motorcoach...he was a drunk and a liar...
...I get tired of hearing all the wierwille apologists continue to sing the praises of the cornfield preacher. Wierwille was to Christianity what Jeffrey Dahmer was to gourmet dining.
I know these are from a few pages ago, but I thought I'd rehash them for a second with the right reverend Oldiesman,
quote:
Lindy, to honestly answer your question, I wouldn't have changed. I was thrilled to learn the Word of God that finally made some sense to me, and had I learned that these teachings really came from other men, I wouldn't have cared. (Actually I did know that a lot of the stuff came from other men already back then.) What was important to ME, was that it was the Word the Word the Word. I didn't care where Wierwille got it.
Had B.G. Leonard taken me aside 30 years ago and said "Wierwille stole from me", I might have encouraged him to take a chill pill and be thankful that the Word of God is being taught to so many folks and he was a part of that and to thank God we all knew the truth and teaching a lot of the same things.
I don't think you're being honest with yourself OM (but you know that don't you? ;)-->) I too was thrilled to 'learn the word', that it finally made sense to me as well! No one had to tell me to quit getting high, no one had to tell me that I needed to witness to others about it, everyone who knew me saw it and felt it because it filled me up. I had no more emptiness... BUT... honestly, had someone told me that the man teaching the class was telling boldface lies, I would've left HIS ministry and tried to hook up with people who weren't lying to me, you know, the ones who were presenting 'the truth' in a 'truthful fashion'... and I bet that you would have as well...
Your statement that you 'wouldn't have cared' I find very hard to swallow. Look how much you 'care' about defending the thief. And you say you knew? I don't believe that you knew (back then) any more than we did. That vp told us that he studied with and learned from these men. I don't believe you knew that he stole entire classes and books, word for word, from these men.
And I don't believe that you'd would've told BG Leonard to take a chill pill under those circumstances. I think that's just more of your revisionist bravado... if you truly were effected by the teachings as you say you were, you would'nt have reacted that way, you couldn't have reacted that way because it would've been totally contrary to everything you were experiencing...
...and if you had told BG Leonard to take a chill pill, you'd probably have found yourself with a bloody nose for such a rude and arrogant suggestion...
SO TELL ME NOW, Mr. Defense Attorney of vp, didn't your client ALWAYS say that the laws of the land are to be obeyed? Why yes he did. Isn't pagiarism against the laws of the land?
it's easy to see you for what you are... but I thought I'd waste my time typeing this anyway so that you'd know that we know...
That ROA that the Leonards came to (I think it was the one after VP died), nobody needed to tell BG to "take a chill pill". Though he often referred to the sin of stealing his work (too often, really) he never allowed himself to name the perpetrators. Ever the gentleman.
Once there, LCM had them, in effect, confined to the trailer where they were housed. No matter, people were coming to their door all hours of the day and night for ministering.
If I would have known that VPW got his material directly from other people, I would have been interested in finding more out about these other people. Especially, since they were still alive at the time. This would have taken some focus off of VPW as the MOG of our times and would have soured his reference to himself as an apostle as one who brings new light to his day and time. VPW was no more bringing new light then I was when I was witnessing at the Mall. I never considered myself and apostle.
Also, I am interested in getting my hands on some of these gentlemen’s material (i.e., J.E. Stiles and B.G. Leonard). Is there a web site I can go to and find there material for sale or some other way of purchasing their material?
It was obvious that Wierwille got some of his material from Bullinger, but it was not generally lifted word-for-word. Possibly because Bullinger's 19th century writing style was hard for many people to read. I assumed that the "not taught since the First Century" stuff was "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" and other books and classes.
When I started hearing that Wierwille came up with his doctrine independently of Bullinger, I found it hard to believe, and assumed that those who said it did not know what they were talking about.
Hmmm. Hey, maybe that's it.. supposedly the Almighty has all of the dead suspended in some kind of closet, waiting to take them out at the right time..
at the same time.
Reincarnation makes far more sense to me, than vic's plagiarized rambling.
why put it all in some limbo closet.. recycling seems to make more sense. I mean, you have millions of confused, wandering souls.. why make more? Seems pretty inefficient.
Hmmm. Hey, maybe that's it.. supposedly the Almighty has all of the dead suspended in some kind of closet, waiting to take them out at the right time..
at the same time.
Reincarnation makes far more sense to me, than vic's plagiarized rambling.
why put it all in some limbo closet.. recycling seems to make more sense. I mean, you have millions of confused, wandering souls.. why make more? Seems pretty inefficient.
Depends on the goals of the one designing the system.
If the goal is lives that separate distinctly in quality, like substances in a centrifuge,
then that system makes a great deal of sense.
If the goal is perpetual homeostasis of the planet, then reincarnation makes the most sense.
That has other problems, however.
First of all, the planet is not designed for perpetual homeostasis, and neither is the
Universe. Each had a definite beginning in space and time and each proceeds to a definite
end in space and time. Reincarnation would work with a "steady state" model of the universe.
However, that's been completely discredited because it contradicts all the evidence.
This should be less of a shock to those people who learned that "steady state" was embraced
dogmatically ("religiously") by certain atheistic scientists because it said what they wanted
it to say- it denied an origin. So, they pretended there was evidence for it and embraced it
dogmatically ("religiously") after making a leap of faith.
Second of all, everything I've read states that the goals of reincarnation are to perfect
the individual- that people progress up from lower life forms, return as slightly more
enlightened humans for several cycles, then finally graduate out as above human.
But statistics wouldn't bear that out.
Some people, right now, are fine, upstanding individuals who enrich the lives of others
whenever they can. Some people, right now, are embarrassments to the human race, exploiting
others and disregarding the cost to others and living off them one way or another.
The larger the sample size of lives, the more likely a person would simply end up circling
as a human, and periodically coming back as more or less enlightened, with poor choices in
one life cancelling out excellent choices in another.
Or to put it another way, Mafiosos would have to spend several lifetimes as nuns just to
break even, making up for all the harm they did. It's just applying the rather fundamental
principle of Statistics called "regression towards the mean."
Oh now WordWolf that's just crazy talk! :biglaugh:/>
Reincarnation has never "quite" added up for me. Reincarnation fits with the Conservaton of Energy law I think but I'm not sure that law is fully accommodated by it in return.
Where all of the consciousness is coming from is a sticky issue for me. "Life" isn't an entirely unique thing, as it actually occurs. It's a "miracle" I would agree but once the requirements are met it's up and running - and there's a lot of miracles running around.
And those miracles can be 'accidents' and unintentional, even out right cursed by the progenitors, later. So the higher purpose of life, if there is one, isn't required to be served in order to produce a life.
The process of producing an instance of life is also very repeatable from existing materials - buuuuut -
The consciousness not so much. Consciousness and specifically the accumulation of memories is individual and only occurs in an individual instance, or "container" as it were. Without memories there's not a lot of usable life.
That's where I get stuck - Life is produced from existing materials but can't actually become a person that would learn or do anything without extreme change - "aging" by our word. So there's "Life" the idea and there's "Life" the actual person, which is all that really counts.
So ------- it isn't really repeatable in the way that reincarnation suggests I think.
Depends on the goals of the one designing the system.
If the goal is lives that separate distinctly in quality, like substances in a centrifuge,
then that system makes a great deal of sense.
If the goal is perpetual homeostasis of the planet, then reincarnation makes the most sense.
That has other problems, however.
First of all, the planet is not designed for perpetual homeostasis, and neither is the
Universe. Each had a definite beginning in space and time and each proceeds to a definite
end in space and time. Reincarnation would work with a "steady state" model of the universe.
However, that's been completely discredited because it contradicts all the evidence.
This should be less of a shock to those people who learned that "steady state" was embraced
dogmatically ("religiously") by certain atheistic scientists because it said what they wanted
it to say- it denied an origin. So, they pretended there was evidence for it and embraced it
dogmatically ("religiously") after making a leap of faith.
Second of all, everything I've read states that the goals of reincarnation are to perfect
the individual- that people progress up from lower life forms, return as slightly more
enlightened humans for several cycles, then finally graduate out as above human.
But statistics wouldn't bear that out.
Some people, right now, are fine, upstanding individuals who enrich the lives of others
whenever they can. Some people, right now, are embarrassments to the human race, exploiting
others and disregarding the cost to others and living off them one way or another.
The larger the sample size of lives, the more likely a person would simply end up circling
as a human, and periodically coming back as more or less enlightened, with poor choices in
one life cancelling out excellent choices in another.
Or to put it another way, Mafiosos would have to spend several lifetimes as nuns just to
break even, making up for all the harm they did. It's just applying the rather fundamental
principle of Statistics called "regression towards the mean."
At the very least I can say:
Thank you for a very well crafted intelligent reply. I appreciate every word here..
Second of all, everything I've read states that the goals of reincarnation are to perfect
the individual- that people progress up from lower life forms, return as slightly more
enlightened humans for several cycles, then finally graduate out as above human.
I tend to think that given opportunity to improve oneself, one would do so. Graduating out as above human however.. if the Almighty made man after his own image.. it would seem that even in the religions which embrace reincarnation, they would suggest that a person can graduate out in an existence in which one was created with to begin with..
The other thing.. is balance and stability, in other words, the mean. I personally don't strive to maintain average performance in much of anything.. I actually feel driven to do better. Not in a frenzied, fanatical way or anything.. and I'm sure there are a lot more who feel the same.
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WordWolf
It was part of the whole package. We were sold the whole package. That package was of a religious organization that was unique in that its authority and teaching were solely from the Bible, and wh
jkboehme
For those who want to know that they know that they know:
TimeLine of sources of V.P. Wierwille’s PLAGARISM in ADAN:
St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430)
Joachim Abbas of Fiore (1135-1202)
Jesuits { Riberia (1580), Alcazar (1614), & Lacunza (1701)}
Edward Irving (1792-1834) & the Irvingites, including Margaret MacDonald
John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) & the Plymouth Brethren
Hiram Edson (1806-1882) & the Seventh Day Adventists
F.W. Grant (Facts & Theories as to a Future State) 1879
E.W. Bullinger (1837-1913)
Dwight L. Moody (1837-1899) & the Moody Bible Institute
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oenophile
Oldiesman writes:
Yes, He does. After all these years He is still cleaning up the mess VPW made in people's lives.
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lindyhopper
From what I remember, OM, to your God a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years. So what does that make 30yrs? Nothing. To the God of the Bible it is as if it just happened. I would also suggest that it is impossible for a being that is all knowing, all powerful, omni-present, and most importantly infinite to become preoccupied with anything.
Perhaps your God is none of these things?
Perhaps yours is one that others here have suggested? Those sins would certainly not be a concern of his.
or nothing
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WordWolf
For the benefit of those of you arriving late, I thought I'd
mention a little about BG Leonard.
"Brother Leonard" was a Christian up in Canada.
He taught a class on understanding and applying the Bible.
Among the hypothetical names he used were
Johnny Jumpup
Maggie Muggins
Henry Bolocco
His books were printed under the corporate name
"Canadian Christian Press."
Not long after vpw sat thru BG Leonard's class,
vpw started running classes on understanding and applying the Bible.
Among the hypothetical names he used were
Johnny Jumpup
Maggie Muggins
Henry Bolocco
His books were published under the corporate name
"American Christian Press."
The body of material from Leonard's class seems to have been
copied over entirely into vpw's class.
At least one person who took both said they find vpw's
idiosyncratic pronunciations of certain words to be a copy of
Leonard's speech patterns, as well.
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diazbro
I had heard about the ficitonal names (Johnny Jumpup, et al) but had not heard about the "Canadian Christian Press" thing. What a mindblower. Weirwille had no shame at all.
I do recall once in my early Way days asking what other publications were available through the American Christian Press since it sounded to me like a general publishing house for christian publications. I was never told that it was a Way company and worse that it was an organization that published only the "best" works hence its catalogue was so small in comparison. So even back then the deception was there. I simply did not know enough to question it. But those who answered my question were entirely comfortable leaving me with the idea that it was an independent company that published only the cream of the crop.
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skyrider
According to twi's book, Born Again to Serve, Mrs. Wierwille documents the dynamic ministry of B.G. Leonard that was originating from Calgary, Alberta Canada. Apparently young vpw had heard enough to convince him that B.G. Leonard's class on "Receiving the holy spirit" was most needful to learn about the workings of God.
In March of 1953, young wierwille phoned BG and asked to be included in his next class. On such short notice, BG told vpw that he was not welcome to attend the next class. Well, vpw (knowing the start date of the class) got a plane ticket and flew into Calgary anyway....and BG confronted vpw at his dooor. After consideration, young wierwille was allowed to be a new student in BG's class.
In June/July of 1953, dorothy and don accompanied vpw to the NEXT BG LEONARD CLASS....dorothy and don were considered new students. Vpw was designated as a grad of this class.
BG had class pictures taken after each class to document these classes and his ministry's progress.
THREE MONTHS LATER.....in October of 1953, vpw assembled his first "pfal class" but no syllabi, no materials, nothing was given to the new students of this class. Wierwille used BG LEONARD'S WORK AND CLASS FORMAT and presented the material as his own. As documented in twi's history, vpw literally STOLE BG'S CLASS AND MATERIAL and used this as the cornerstone work for "his" work.
Later, Dr. Higgins from Chicago introduced young vpw to the research work of Dr. Bullinger and gave him the Companion Bible as a gift. As wierwille studied and devoured Bullinger's research and work, wierwille engrafted major components to prop up his own ministry work......and pfal crawled forth.
With a canned product in hand by 1967/68.....vpw went searching for the youthful Christians and found growing works in New York and California. At the age of 52 or so, wierwille was savy to working a crowd and swaying opinion. After all, he proclaimed of himself to be The Teacher.
Now, this twi-history fits like "a hand in a glove." The "hand" out of BG Leonard's ministry.....fit nicely into the concealing "glove" of wierwille.
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Raf
Plagiarism is thievery: you treat it with "so what?" Whitewash. It doesn't matter. What difference does it make? Do you think God is going to give you extra points for knowing VPW's sins? blah blah blah...
Dude, sin is sin. Pointing it out is not dwelling on it, and dismissing accounts of sin out of some self-pious notion of "righteousness" is not godly.
"Take a chill pill" is whitewashing, by the way.
And no, def, that was not directed at you. I was quoting it as one of the stupider things I've read here in a long time.
"Take a chill pill" is not a godly response to someone who's the victim of theft.
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LG
Plagiarism is not only stealing.
Plagiarism is fraud. Wierwille was a fraud.
Plagiarism is lying. Wierwille was a serial liar.
Wierwille's purported personal ministry was based on and almost completely composed of lies. TWI was and is based on those lies and has continued in them and added to them.
That doesn't mean that nothing Wierwille ever said was true or that nothing TWI ever taught or promoted or currently teaches and promotes is true. What it means is that none of it can be trusted to be true or even honest. (There is such a thing as an honest mistake.)
That is important, not in order to trash Wierwille or TWI, as such, but because many people based much of their lives, and many decisions in their lives, on other people's fraudulent claims and dishonest, self-serving pretentions of godliness. Many people still do. In order to make honest, enlightened decisions now, they need to at least understand the dishonesty upon which some of their previous decisions were based.
Although I have "chucked the whole thing," I'm not advocating that others do that. I do advocate that they look at cold, hard facts and realize that much of what they believe or believed is based on fraud. What they do after that is up to them.
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Raf
On top of which, I have trouble believing that someone who has no problem dredging up the centuries-old sins of the Catholic Church thinks there's somehow something unforgiving about recognizing the truth of 30-year-old sins.
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Tom Strange
what's this???? another debacle involving Oldiesman????
what a surprise! whodathunkit?
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GrouchoMarxJr
In other words...Wierwille was a complete and shameless fraud. He not only stole BG's class, but he used his position as "the teacher" as a springboard into seducing young girls in the back of his motorcoach...he was a drunk and a liar...
...I get tired of hearing all the wierwille apologists continue to sing the praises of the cornfield preacher. Wierwille was to Christianity what Jeffrey Dahmer was to gourmet dining.
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Tom Strange
I know these are from a few pages ago, but I thought I'd rehash them for a second with the right reverend Oldiesman,
I don't think you're being honest with yourself OM (but you know that don't you?Your statement that you 'wouldn't have cared' I find very hard to swallow. Look how much you 'care' about defending the thief. And you say you knew? I don't believe that you knew (back then) any more than we did. That vp told us that he studied with and learned from these men. I don't believe you knew that he stole entire classes and books, word for word, from these men.
And I don't believe that you'd would've told BG Leonard to take a chill pill under those circumstances. I think that's just more of your revisionist bravado... if you truly were effected by the teachings as you say you were, you would'nt have reacted that way, you couldn't have reacted that way because it would've been totally contrary to everything you were experiencing...
...and if you had told BG Leonard to take a chill pill, you'd probably have found yourself with a bloody nose for such a rude and arrogant suggestion...
SO TELL ME NOW, Mr. Defense Attorney of vp, didn't your client ALWAYS say that the laws of the land are to be obeyed? Why yes he did. Isn't pagiarism against the laws of the land?
it's easy to see you for what you are... but I thought I'd waste my time typeing this anyway so that you'd know that we know...
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WordWolf
A little more on Leonard.
BG Leonard, of course, is never mentioned in pfal-neither the class
nor its books. If he was, someone might have been inclined to read
some of his work and spot most of the pfal class.
If you dig, the ONLY mention EVER made by vpw to Leonard was in the
propaganda book "the Way: living in love".
vpw said of Leonard that
vpw claimed that he himself took Leonard's work and
This, of course, is an outright lie.
Leonard WAS great with The Word. That's why early pfal classes were
nothing BUT Leonard's work.
vpw never "put it all together with The Word" because it was already
together with The Word.
Mrs W, years later, gave the following account of BG Leonard.
This is from "Born Again To Serve", copyright 1996.
Seems there's a discrepancy here.
vpw claimed BG Leonard wasn't very useful, and not with The Word.
Mrs W claimed BG Leonard was indispensible and knew his Bible.
In light of the fact that Leonard's explanations FROM the Bible all
ended up in pfal, I believe it's clear Mrs W told the truth,
and vpw lied thru his teeth.
WHY did he lie thru his teeth?
Because it allowed him to manipulate his image and appear more
impressive, claiming he had unique knowledge and ONLY his group
had this special knowledge (which was being taught by Leonard
before vpw ever HEARD of him).
It was wrong to lie, it was wrong to plagiarize, and it was wrong
to misrepresent himself. A man of God ought not to sin so grievously.
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TheEvan
That ROA that the Leonards came to (I think it was the one after VP died), nobody needed to tell BG to "take a chill pill". Though he often referred to the sin of stealing his work (too often, really) he never allowed himself to name the perpetrators. Ever the gentleman.
Once there, LCM had them, in effect, confined to the trailer where they were housed. No matter, people were coming to their door all hours of the day and night for ministering.
Think about the implications.
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MountainTopCO
If I would have known that VPW got his material directly from other people, I would have been interested in finding more out about these other people. Especially, since they were still alive at the time. This would have taken some focus off of VPW as the MOG of our times and would have soured his reference to himself as an apostle as one who brings new light to his day and time. VPW was no more bringing new light then I was when I was witnessing at the Mall. I never considered myself and apostle.
Also, I am interested in getting my hands on some of these gentlemen’s material (i.e., J.E. Stiles and B.G. Leonard). Is there a web site I can go to and find there material for sale or some other way of purchasing their material?
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Oakspear
It was obvious that Wierwille got some of his material from Bullinger, but it was not generally lifted word-for-word. Possibly because Bullinger's 19th century writing style was hard for many people to read. I assumed that the "not taught since the First Century" stuff was "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today" and other books and classes.
When I started hearing that Wierwille came up with his doctrine independently of Bullinger, I found it hard to believe, and assumed that those who said it did not know what they were talking about.
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jkboehme
back to the top due to similarity to new thread, 'Death & TWI's Views on it'
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waysider
*BUMP*
It's old but, still a good read.
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Ham
Now for some Squirrelish rambling.
Hmmm. Hey, maybe that's it.. supposedly the Almighty has all of the dead suspended in some kind of closet, waiting to take them out at the right time..
at the same time.
Reincarnation makes far more sense to me, than vic's plagiarized rambling.
why put it all in some limbo closet.. recycling seems to make more sense. I mean, you have millions of confused, wandering souls.. why make more? Seems pretty inefficient.
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WordWolf
Depends on the goals of the one designing the system.
If the goal is lives that separate distinctly in quality, like substances in a centrifuge,
then that system makes a great deal of sense.
If the goal is perpetual homeostasis of the planet, then reincarnation makes the most sense.
That has other problems, however.
First of all, the planet is not designed for perpetual homeostasis, and neither is the
Universe. Each had a definite beginning in space and time and each proceeds to a definite
end in space and time. Reincarnation would work with a "steady state" model of the universe.
However, that's been completely discredited because it contradicts all the evidence.
This should be less of a shock to those people who learned that "steady state" was embraced
dogmatically ("religiously") by certain atheistic scientists because it said what they wanted
it to say- it denied an origin. So, they pretended there was evidence for it and embraced it
dogmatically ("religiously") after making a leap of faith.
Second of all, everything I've read states that the goals of reincarnation are to perfect
the individual- that people progress up from lower life forms, return as slightly more
enlightened humans for several cycles, then finally graduate out as above human.
But statistics wouldn't bear that out.
Some people, right now, are fine, upstanding individuals who enrich the lives of others
whenever they can. Some people, right now, are embarrassments to the human race, exploiting
others and disregarding the cost to others and living off them one way or another.
The larger the sample size of lives, the more likely a person would simply end up circling
as a human, and periodically coming back as more or less enlightened, with poor choices in
one life cancelling out excellent choices in another.
Or to put it another way, Mafiosos would have to spend several lifetimes as nuns just to
break even, making up for all the harm they did. It's just applying the rather fundamental
principle of Statistics called "regression towards the mean."
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socks
Oh now WordWolf that's just crazy talk! :biglaugh:/>
Reincarnation has never "quite" added up for me. Reincarnation fits with the Conservaton of Energy law I think but I'm not sure that law is fully accommodated by it in return.
Where all of the consciousness is coming from is a sticky issue for me. "Life" isn't an entirely unique thing, as it actually occurs. It's a "miracle" I would agree but once the requirements are met it's up and running - and there's a lot of miracles running around.
And those miracles can be 'accidents' and unintentional, even out right cursed by the progenitors, later. So the higher purpose of life, if there is one, isn't required to be served in order to produce a life.
The process of producing an instance of life is also very repeatable from existing materials - buuuuut -
The consciousness not so much. Consciousness and specifically the accumulation of memories is individual and only occurs in an individual instance, or "container" as it were. Without memories there's not a lot of usable life.
That's where I get stuck - Life is produced from existing materials but can't actually become a person that would learn or do anything without extreme change - "aging" by our word. So there's "Life" the idea and there's "Life" the actual person, which is all that really counts.
So ------- it isn't really repeatable in the way that reincarnation suggests I think.
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Ham
At the very least I can say:
Thank you for a very well crafted intelligent reply. I appreciate every word here..
I tend to think that given opportunity to improve oneself, one would do so. Graduating out as above human however.. if the Almighty made man after his own image.. it would seem that even in the religions which embrace reincarnation, they would suggest that a person can graduate out in an existence in which one was created with to begin with..
The other thing.. is balance and stability, in other words, the mean. I personally don't strive to maintain average performance in much of anything.. I actually feel driven to do better. Not in a frenzied, fanatical way or anything.. and I'm sure there are a lot more who feel the same.
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Tzaia
vpw was selling recycled light as new.
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WordWolf
But...if it's new light to you, it's as good as new light even if it's old light!
We were taught that by vpw himself!
Oh, wait......
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