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Interesting old thread this. Pity it deteriorated. I really did want some answers, about whether we'd recognize any "gift ministries." But thinking about it: Is a prophet a difficult person to live with, really? Sure, on occasions they might speak out with boldness and p1$$ off a lot of "authorities." But let's think. Jesus... one who always spoke out for God. A prophet, therefore. Had loads of buddies who hung around with him. Males as well as females. They wouldn't have done that if he were difficult to be around. Paul, the apostle Paul: one who after his dramatic meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus, again always spoke out for God. A prophet, therefore. Travelled all the Med area with a faithful band of followers (only males mentioned, doesn't exclude there being women followers). Was welcomed into the houses of those to whom he spoke. They wouldn't have done that if he were difficult to be around. Visited some people, or groups of people, many times. I'm sure that in both OT and NT times, there were those who might have been deemed prophets and, just like anyone else, some were easy to get on with, and some were less so. If you attend a decent church, you might find that some clergy are easier to be around than others. I think that this saying by the (in)famous wannabe prophet VPW was just his excuse for his failure to address his genuine lack of people-skills. He didn't want to put the effort into "pastoring" them, but did want to terrify people by "confronting" them. Thus, he says that prophets are hard people to live with - and supplies his own excuse for being obnoxious and manipulative.

Glen Campbell .............. RIP

Twi harbors a culture of untoward secrecy. Hidden from public view, the secret world of wierwille had an inner circle of accomplices who whitewashed his sins. In this hidden culture were perks, payoffs, and privileges of power and control over others. Martindale, too, was intoxicated with this access to power and privilege. And now, Rivenbark controls the levers of power. Years ago, I predicted that she'd hold onto the presidency for as long as possible. Perhaps, another 10 years? Many hold the view that twi was/is considered a cult because of it's stance on the trinity or the dead are not alive now. Sheeesh. I never believed either of these two "twi doctrines" BEFORE taking the pfal class. That's not it. Isolation, coercion and untoward secrecy classify twi as a cult....a dark sinister world. Click Here

Me too. They sound like River Road Fellowship refugees but maybe not that bad. We all have dysfunctions to get over from the Way me too.

And yes, the Way knows about as much about counseling as it does about running an accredited Christian college. See the following: nothing, nil, nix, nada, null, aught, cipher, cypher, goose egg, naught, zero, zilch, zip, zippo(adverb) a quantity of no importance Synonyms: postal code, nought, zipper, zero, vigour, zip, energy, goose egg, postcode, naught, aught, cipher, nix, zippo, nil, zero point, nobody, secret code, slide fastener, nonentity, vigor, zip fastener, cryptograph, cypher, zilch, nothing, nada, null nothing(adverb) in no respect; to no degree .

An open letter to a closed mind. This Pharisee has emerged from the council of Pharisees as being the Pharisee of Pharisees. Scripturally, he is projected to be threefold the child of hell of the predecessors. I just think he's off to a slow start on ruining people's lives and isn't quite as efficient at executing the bum's rush as the Wizard of Roz. Pearls. Swine. Wineskins. Peace Out.

To me you were dealing with lower level intelligence there. Well, sh1t, maybe that's what we all were dealing with. Let's compare here mothers. On one hand, we have that lady's example. I'm sure that little girl at 18 will get as far away from that woman as possible, and have a lot of damage to deal with. Do you think they will have a multi-generational connection? On the other hand we have you who showed Christian love to a troubled adopted child and saw him through a stage where he was weak. Now that he is stronger you have love and a multi-generational connection. Who was the better mother? Who does God approve of? Who has rewards now and eternally? Not even a tough choice answering those.

Um yeah. So is an alcoholic, a serial adulterer, and a narcissist. All seperately. Little less all rolled together into one dysfunctional personality. Somehow the "prophet" part of it looking back probably wasn't the problem. Other than to logically say the delusional vision probably was tied in to the other dysfunction.

The Wizard of Roz

Bet Forts aren't M&A so that their inbred family can visit them.

WG, you are so funny!! I've eaten Dried Seeweed before, and loved it. God forbid we Americans, eat healthy food. I wouldn't want to put Mickey D, Taco Bell, and other fast food places out of business. Nosireeee!!!!

Ill betcha rozilla marked and avoided all 24.

I still use granulated kelp. Here's the source: seaveg.com but they close the store during August because they are busy with the harvest.

TWI knew about as much about counseling as I know about nuclear physics. You say you have a troubled, rebellious, disobedient child who's been diagnosed with ADHD? There is no such thing as ADHD. BEAT THE HELL OUT OF YOUR DEVIL SPIRIT POSSESSED CHILD AND HE WILL LISTEN-REMEMBER-OBEY! You've been diagnosed with a serious disorder and you're scared? Well, where's your believing? It was either your lack of believing or devil spirit influence/possession that screwed you up. I watched someone who I considered to be the most exceedingly great and mighty woman of God who had ever lived beat the crap out of her little daughter, aged about 3, because she spit out the steamed spinach this woman was feeding her. Then she beat her some more to get her to say "Thank you, Mommy, for providing me this healthful and nutritious meal." That was when I realized this cruel, sadistic, legalistic zeeatch knew nothing about raising children. I wish I'd taken that damned spoon away from her and shoved it down her throat.

Skyrider: TY again for your intense effort to put together an extremely emotional and insightful "book" for all of us here and the thousands who will eventually read it here. Your thanks to Pawtucket is echoed by every one of us who have been here and the 10s of thousands of people his faithful, dogged work keeping the Spot open and relevant to every stage and iteration of that destructive, fundamentalist "Christian" cult, TWIt. Sky.....you've been a stalwart truth teller here since WayDale. Your efforts here have not been in vain. The purity of your heart to walk with and serve Jesus Christ has been evident throughout all these years. I am so thankful you got out in time to save your family and your mind and your dignity. And, that you have told your story so wonderfully and kindly here at the greatest internet Cafe we know of. I bid you and your's Godspeed and.......peace brother.

The question isn't whether anyone is interested in reading it but rather what the personal toll for you would be to set it in writing and publish it here. We can live without it if it will be problematic for you to relive it.

I remember entering into a conversation with a psychologist by profession, and discussing TWI specifically and extreme fundamentalist Christian organizations as a corollary. When the topic swung around to secrecy, he made an interesting point. He said that people do not hide that which is appropriate, they hide that which is inappropriate. If what a bunch of egotistical hypocrites like the BOD do in their little meetings were appropriate, then there would be no reason to hide what goes on. However, what they do is inappropriate. That is the foundation and origin of their secrecy. What Jesus said about that was that the sins they commit in secret will be shouted on the rooftops.

Now it is time again where East meets West here in Kitchen Stadium. I can imadine Mark Dacacos introducing the Iron Chefs to these secret ingedients. Womder how Bobby Flay and company would have been "creative"?

I bet Saint Vic spent more time with the honeys than with either the honey wagon people or John and his peers. SoCrates

We can all find at least ONE PERSON who espouses the most ridiculous bs. Finding ONE PERSON who will bad-mouth Jim and actually met him is not a great accomplishment. Trick question. IN HINDSIGHT, vpw obviously was self-serving. AT THE TIME, vpw was a successful conman. See, there's 2 types of conmen- the successful and the UNsuccessful. The UNsuccessful are more "obviously self-serving." They offer a product that does not convince people is legitimate. Those conmen, in true Darwinian fashion, are caught, exposed, arrested, imprisoned, and then things really go downhill for them. SUCCESSFUL conmen like vpw are not "OBVIOUSLY self-serving." They cover their greed with a disguise of altruism and good-will. They offer a product that convinces people it's legitimate. That's how they're able to con people in the first place. vpw was this type of conman-otherwise, he would just have vanished into history like dozens of "snake-oil salesmen" throughout history. As a good-hearted man, Jim actually TRUSTED that people told him the truth, especially when they claimed to care about God. That's not what vpw said. "The Way:Living in Love, pg-174. "I always knew I wanted to help people. First, I thought I wanted to be a doctor, then a lawyer; but by my junior year in college, I had my heart set on the ministry." Even vpw didn't say that about himself. Mind you, even there, his story isn't consistent. He had "Uncle Harry" claiming when vpw ditched doing his farm-chores that, just like Billy Graham, he was practicing preaching by "preaching to the trees" despite admitting he never actually SAW him do that. When he was growing up, vpw had built a reputation locally as a bully and a show-off. The Way:Living in Love, pg-177. "After I met Rosalind Rinker in Indiana, I invited her to visit us in Payne, and she came for a week that summer of 1942. Maybe it was August. I remember it was near the end of summer, and she used to dog me on the Bible being the Word of God. She talked to me about getting my own life in alignment and harmony with the Bible. She was the one who had me make out lists of the good things I'd done, that was about half a page, and all the bad things, that amounted to 10 or 12 pages. She was off on that part, but the Bible as the Word of God, she really pushed that one. And I'd never heard that in all my years of school-not believing it anyway." vpw went to seminary school, and spent over a year as a minister, doing weekly sermons, and THEN believed the Bible was the Word of God. He didn't just act as an honest minister, then get up one morning and find a hot secretary in his living room, buck nekkid, with a rose in her teeth. He planned things, arranged things, and eventually succeeded in his plans to molest and rape young women. He worked it out pretty early. He went to San Francisco to meet the hippies and recruit them. While there, he bought pornographic materials- you saw those in CFS. While there, he tried to convince Jim D that ORGIES WERE FINE WITH GOD and tried to use the Bible to say that. The bigger the public audience, the more moral he talked, but the more private the conditions, the more he said his REAL thoughts- that God was ok with casual sex. He told all the wows it wasn't fine. He told the more exclusive corps, sometimes, that it WAS. And to a few people one-on-one, he actually said things like God was ok with ORGIES. Jim, on the other hand, was clear God disapproved, and was glad to be delivered from things like that, before vpw ever HEARD of him. Explanations follow the most direct explanation. Jim D saw the materials from Leonard, Stiles and Bullinger that vpw plagiarized (Kenyon as well), and that all looked legitimate- because THEIR WORK was legitimate. Truth at the pen of a plagiarist is still truth. In the case of vpw, vpw used THEIR TRUTH to hide HIS sex obsessions. No. Their one talk on the subject, vpw was pushing for Jim to tell him what ORGIES were like. vpw said that God was cool with it and it was "AVAILABLE." Jim DISAGREED, thanked God he was free of such things, and ended the conversation. (vpw had made him uncomfortable by even ASKING about orgies.)] "That's why moral superiority is a myth. We're all human. We all get tempted. We all screw things up. Moral superiority is merely a spiritual football." You're able to imagine that a man vpw failed to corrupt might have been corrupted by vpw, so you get to skip over all of morality? Sad, sad, sad. Shameless how much of the Bible gets discarded, all to excuse an evil hypocrite's evil deeds and moral deficiencies. "So you say it's just not possible that a Christian ministry can have skeletons in its closet like that?" NO. We say it is a mockery of God for a supposed minister to do so evilly, and that such a man or woman should be removed from office, exposed to his congregation, and subjected to the fullest prosecution of criminal law. People sin, but for someone claiming to represent God to orchestrate things to perform evil acts upon God's people is a whole different thing, and the Bible condemns such people roundly. Some of them LOST THEIR LIVES for such. "Look at all the denominations. They are part of the body of Christ, yet they believe Jesus is God, which is idolatry, and which is REQUIRED for membership in the National Council of Churches! This is not good, yet they are part of the body of Christ. People go to those churches and get saved, delivered from bondage, feel like they belong in the body of Christ, all that good stuff. It happens there, too." [so, according to you, it's excusable for a minister to set up a love shack, arrange for young parishioners to be sent there, drug them, then rape or molest them, but teaching the Trinity is to be thoroughly condemned. Fascinating.] "None of us is qualified to be a moral policeman or judge. We can say this is wrong, that is wrong, and slice it up as finely as we can, but to build this gigantic, bigger than life, superstructure, where VP is the epitome of evil? That's God's job. I'm not building a statue to VP. YOU'RE building a statue to moral superiority." [if I ever see someone "build this gigantic, bigger than life superstructure where vpw is the epitome of evil", I'll probably warn them it's disproportionate to the degree of his evil deeds, and wrong. The idea that anyone's doing this now is a convenient FICTION for you, but, hey, it's not like your posts here have been concerned with things like "truth" and "reality" so far, so this hardly comes as a surprise. And one need not "build a statue" to someone to idolize them- one only need move them from their proper place and make them a higher authority than Scripture. Not like you're going to see the difference.]

Not necessarily smart and deliberate, just an opportunist. SoCrates

Twinky, These are excerpts from an article titled Spiritual Gifts on bible.org. I like that site because it gives a wide range of theology and various perspectives on the same subject. :) Nothing earth shattering in the article, but I appreciated the focus. http://bible.org/ser...inthians-121-11 The great error of the carnal Corinthian church was to confuse spiritual gifts with spirituality. Those who spoke in tongues thought themselves to be several notches higher on the spiritual scale than those who did not have this gift. The Corinthian church was apparently an exceptionally gifted church, but it was also one of the most carnal churches in the New Testament. My friend, you may not be comforted in hearing this but the man who has the gift of pastor-teacher may be far less spiritual than the one who has the gift of helps. The one with the gift of giving may be far more spiritual than the evangelist who is winning thousands to Christ. We need only recall the Old Testament figure, Sampson, to be reminded that while he was performing great feats of strength he was living a life devoted to the flesh. Our Spiritual Gift Excuses Us From Other Responsibilities The watchword of the Christian sluggard is 'that's not my gift.' My pet peeve is the pastor-teacher who maintains that his sole obligation is to prepare for sermons. He has no time for counseling those who are struggling with life, no time to visit the sick, no time to comfort the mourning. That mentality is an abuse of the biblical teaching concerning spiritual gifts. We have demonstrated that every gift relates to a function that is the responsibility of every Christian. Although some are gifted to give, all Christians are to give cheerfully to the Lord. While some are gifted to be leaders or administrators, every man is to be a leader in his home, and every woman needs to lead as well (cf. Proverbs 31). While our spiritual gift necessitates that we establish priorities, we are never excused from the responsibilities of all Christians. We are foolish to spend great amounts of time as the chairman of a committee if we are not gifted as an administrator. We would spend our time much more profitably in the area of our gift. But let us be careful about excusing ourselves from tasks for which we are responsible. We may not be gifted at leading people to Christ, but we are to be witnesses for our Lord Jesus.

I think the evidence trail is pretty clear. He wanted an easier job than working on a farm. He considered business, music,and preaching. Business was unreliable and is a lot of work. Music would allow him to pursue lots of vices- musicians do that all the time- but it also is unreliable- and is more work than it appears, with no guarantee of success. It's said it takes 7 years of preparation to become an "overnight success". So, neither was a guaranteed living. So, preaching. This allowed him to remain the center of attention and get people to listen to him (by his own words, that was critically important), guaranteed a comfortable living, and LOOKED LIKE he worked 1 day a week. Naturally, he discovered later it's more work than that, and people hold you accountable for good conduct if you're a preacher. So, he began setting up his little side-ventures-- Christian radio & music with Vesper Chimes and so on, all looking for an outside independent deal while on his denomination's paycheck. By his own words, he neither went into preaching, nor seminary school, nor actual preaching BELIEVING THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD. So, it's pretty clear he had another motive- which is obvious when you follow his history. He was a show-off as a teenager and followed a career which allowed him to continue to be a showoff. He succeeded in finding an independent deal when he found Leonard's class and plagiarized it. This gave him a product. When the family farm became the property of the brothers, he bought out the brothers and had it signed over to a religious organization he incorporated on the spot- which allowed him to skip taxes on the land, and gave him a staging area for his product. He got the final piece- the audience/customers- when he hijacked the hippies and sent them to sell his product/promote pfal. (Although it wasn't really "his" product- it was a melange plagiarized from different sources.) It wasn't until he got to the customers/audience/suckers that he began telling his "God spoke to me and made it snow" story. Supposedly, it happened in 1942, and it was 20 years later before he even mentioned it. Was it all deliberate? Yes, each step, each unprincipled act, each crime, all were planned and executed. However, I think he was such a thorough con man that he conned HIMSELF part of the time. I honestly think that when vpw told D00p that God permitted ORGIES, that vpw had convinced himself it was so. Someone noted that his final hours included him trying to figure out where he'd messed up-since he wasn't getting deliverance. Either he was STILL acting full-speed at the very end, or (which I think) he succeeded in conning HIMSELF part of the time. Yes, he knew it was all a fraud, but he put on the role so completely that the role became the actor. When it happens with a stage-actor, it's tragic. Evidence supports the idea that James Dean became obsessed with Brando's "Wild One", and became "Rebel Without a Cause" for the rest of his life. Not "typecast"- except by his own mind. When it happens outside the stage, it's a crying shame.

The really "good" Pastors teach with 4 ft swords next to them and joke about maiming women. Those are the ones EVERYONE feels really comfortable with. Don't ya know. Yeah, my Pastor regularly uses vulgar terms while he threatens to disfigure me. That is why I keep going back....it is all so pure and holy. God must really get a good chuckle from Pastors like that. They really give Him a good name. How.....fun.

ah, the twelve "benefits" of da class..

LCM had the gift of throwing a temper tantrum like a 2 or 3 year old who needed a spanking from his parents.

Besides the five gift ministries (Eph 4:11)......the scriptures make reference to helps, governments, and workers of miracles in the context of the church (I Cor 12:28,29). To me, there is far more depth to this context than wierwille or twi ventured to go. For example, prophets......do they speak and forwarn cultures and societies of calamities, famines, governmental breakdowns, corruption, enemy uprisings, etc to protect us? Clearly, God protected civilizations and cultures from impending doom to preserve the Christ line. Don't the scriptures teach that even the unjust are greatly benefited by God's benevolence and His prophets? Or say, pastors?........are they just confined to church or religious settings? Can pastors be found ministering in prisons? rehabilitation centers? hospitals? funeral homes? war zones? missionary work? family intervention? college campuses? retirement homes? How wide of swath does this ministry cover? How big is the God of All Comfort? Same with teachers......all walks of life, secular and spiritual. Why does everything have to be black/white theology with twi? Didn't Jesus teach about LIFE AND GODLINESS..... fishing, crops, harvest, money, business, talents, building, traditions, government, etc????? EVERYTHING wierwille and twi taught is suspect. EVERYTHING needs to be researched and reconsidered. EVERYTHING.

The evil hypocrite vpw shamelessly rewrote what each of the gift ministers was, all so he could use it to his own advantage. Sometimes he was willing to claim he was one or another- more often, he made the comparisons obvious and left it for others to say. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers. An APOSTLE is a "SENT ONE." A lot of Christians know this. But vpw said an apostle "brings new light to their generation. It may be old light, but to his generation, it's new light." vpw was obviously not a "sent one" because the only one who "sent" him was himself, and he "sent" himself wherever the money or the young women were. However, he claimed to bring "new light", although even he had to admit this "new light" was "old light" at the time, so he made up an excuse for THAT, too. Prophets speak for God, to God's people. Because they have to correct those going off, they are often HATED as bearers of bad news, and some spent time in prisons or tortured or killed for it. vpw was "a hard man to take" because he was immature and lacked self-control. He CLAIMED to speak for God. His claims never made him a REAL prophet. Evangelists speak to the people to win new Christians. vpw rewrote this too- he said an evangelist isn't the one who goes out, he's the one who gets the OTHER Christians fired up to go out. He stays back, smoking cigars and drinking Drambuie out of a coffee cup. Very convenient for vpw. He could make all sorts of claims and work maybe 2 days a week, and still claim titles under God. Pastors are like shepherds. Jesus said the shepherd gives his life for the sheep. The shepherd is THE protector of the flock, and risks his own life for the flock. vpw USED the flock, and considered the flock ripe for fleecing. He SPOKE about using up his life for the flock, then went back, lit another cigar and poured himself more booze. Teachers- not every person can be propped in front of a room and actually be a gift minister of a teacher. Those teachers CHANGE LIVES. FOR THE BETTER. Those who vpw changed more have just become vpw machines, spitting out vpw dogma and rhetoric, and crushing their own free will in the process. vpw was to teaching what Dahmer was to fine dining.

Tom Strange said this in the Michael Richards thread, but it could apply in oh, so many places!! Heh heh, you crack me up, Mr. Strange.