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I completely agree. Maybe I should elaborate a bit on my point about Paul. I believe that Paul did receive revelation, on more than one occasion. I also believe he had the most complete and thorough understanding of the Torah, except the red thread of Christ. Once he learned that missing piece, he was unstoppable. It turned his life around. I'm sure, at first, it was devastating to him to learn how off he had been in his actions, but he corrected that. However, as for the letters he wrote, some, obviously, in response to reports of serious error, I am now leaning toward the point DWBH made - the letters were inspired to be written, not dictated to Paul. That certainly doesn't mean he was leaning unto his own understanding. On the contrary, he was leaning unto the Word he so clearly knew, understood, and lived. There is, at one point in one of his letters beginning in 1 Cor 7:6, a section where he specifically states that he is giving his opinion rather than explaining a commandment of God. In other words, what he was saying absolutely was not based on the Word, but based on his own personal insight into the matter. Surely, that was NOT dictated to Paul, or it couldn't have been his own opinion. This actually lends credence to the "inspired vs dictated" viewpoint.

Bizarre and sad in a way – I wonder if the local leadership even realizes how that would tend to disconnect them from the folks in their fellowship…I remember how excited I was to read through the entire Bible after taking the class - - and would “pester” my Twig coordinator with all these questions I had after reading the Old Testament and especially the Gospels…you know - - a lot of stuff not covered in the class or just skimmed over quickly... I was “encouraged” to keep reviewing the PFAL material…talk about a buzzkill on exploring the Christian faith. I liked what you said in your other post keying off of Don’t Worry’s zeroing in on “inspired”. It got me thinking…A poet or musician watches a beautiful sunset and they are somehow inspired to write something. We don’t say the sunset dictated what they should write. I think it’s the personal unique experience that filled them with the urge to write something – they felt something and had a creative response to it… so to with the biblical authors...instead of experiencing a sunset - - maybe it was a genuine epiphany - - some personal experience with God that drove folks to write about it. I especially get that feeling in reading the epistles of Paul - - his discourses on the law, the conscience, sin, redemption, the supremacy of Christ, etc. I believe they’re full of epiphanies – where Paul had enlightening realizations that enabled him to understand Old Testament theology from a new and deeper perspective.

I grew up in twi. Something never sat right with me. At 18 I bailed and never looked back. I just read “the cult that snapped and I was blown away that anyone would want to have anything to do with TWI. My parents and family friends stayed in, until just recently they got out when this R&R thing came about. I’m Leary of it, as are the parents. They’re ....ed bc they feel betrayed. I think they were blinded and just followed instead of thinking for themselves. I was told from someone in the know that Rico was going a different direction in Florida and that he “got revelation from God” that he should run the new ministry. We’ll see where this ends up. I have a great church I go to that doesn’t hound me if I miss a Sunday. It works for me so I think I’ll stick with that.

For those who had only a brush of involvement with twi, it is understandable that they didn't see behind the mask. On the field, away from twi's headquarters........there were many, MANY good twig coordinators in the mid-to-late 70s. During this time, it was common for faithful followers to hobnob from one twig to another across town. It may be really difficult, now, to realize that the way ministry exuded strong Christian tenets of love, giving and support at the local level. At each twig fellowship.......two or three songs were sung at those fellowships each night that came from Christian denominations: What a friend we have in Jesus Tis so sweet to trust in Jesus My Jesus, I love thee In the garden My Jesus of Blue Galilee I love to tell the story Great is Thy Faithfulness etc. For those who ask, "How could you join a cult?"..........it wasn't like that in the early 70s on the field. There was no monitoring, no mandating which fellowship to attend. If someone across town was teaching hot bible......that's where the action was. At times, some one would not show up for a month.....but was welcomed with loving arms when he/she returned. Nobody joins a cult willingly (wittingly). In every thing that I've learned or experienced, I would say that wierwille pulled his mask off more openly around 1977.....definitely, by 1978. The confrontations became more widespread and intense. A mandate swept thru to replace The Blue Song Book with the brown song book [.....was this because twi was pressured on using copyrighted songs without permission?....]. Some of the high-profile leaders were starting to stand up and challenge wierwille's authoritarian style and doctrine......while others exited, like Peter Wa-de in 1975. In December 1977.......wierwille begins writing his corps letters and laments that corps are exiting. Letters to the way corps Thirty letters........evidence that wierwille was using another tool to shame and guilt the corps. The problem persisted AND ESCALATED........because wierwille did not change course. Corps kept exiting, because they were being manipulated and exploited. Wierwille knew the tactics of incremental steps. Sure........it took YEARS before it became manifestly clear to the general public. And, then......most notably, Christopher C. Geer took to the podium in 1986 to label craig, don, and howard as "the problem" for everyone being off the word. Good Golly.....Miss Molly! What a load of steaming bullschit. What is so freaking crazy is that there are STILL corps today who believe that wierwille was this benevolent, prophesying man of God. And, here at GreaseSpot........the wierwille-defenders refuse to connect the dots. Go back thru the threads......and you'll see that NONE of the staunch wierwille-defenders ever changed his opinion. And, I say "his"......because, as far as I know, every one of them were men. With overwhelming evidence of wierwille's sexual predation........they dismiss it compared to "the greatness of pfal that he taught." We see it on present threads. You can see it on threads 15 years ago. Go back thru the threads.......and read it for yourselves. Wierwille-defenders protect their idol, wierwille. Seems to me...............wierwille-defenders STILL want the mask back on.

When I first found the Cafe, annio, I spent so much time reading ... I didn't have internet at home, so stayed after work reading and reading. I was shocked, appalled, and ultimately freed from a lot of misery. Would leave very late - got locked in twice (was discovered at 10pm, where did the previous five hours go!?) - happily, one time the cleaners disturbed me, and the second time, the IT guy was fixing some things. Otherwise, I guess I'd have been very early for work the next day...! Carry on reading!

for me, the inherent difficulty (or problem, if you prefer) with that is where or what it leads to. namely: If it came forth like that for Paul, then why should what he wrote be all that much more credible or important than what I believe God inspires within me? (And if that doesn't strike a chord within you, perhaps it will when your own understanding of the Word is more... how shall I say it... lifted up?) Besides, exactly how does that fit with Proverbs 3:5? Being somewhat familiar with what some number of things are said and taught to be Paul's thorn in the flesh... I've found myself wondering at times why it might have been so painful for Paul. If you suppose it to be something outside of himself (i.e., other people), then I'd imagine the very most painful for Paul would be beloved Israelite brethren, who's zealousness for the law was continually perverting his gospel of grace. But, if you suppose it to be more subjective - something wrong or at odds within himself - then it's hard to imagine anything much more troublesome or painful than his being driven to break away from so many years of his own fanaticism for the law. Think it was hard for some of you to... what's the word used here at GSC... "decompress" after your years in TWI? Well, multiply the worst you can imagine by 1000 fold... and I'm still inclined to think it doesn't come close to being comparable to what Paul probably had to deal with in his mind. Trained at the feet of Gamaliel. Profited above many of his equals. But counted as dung. Rely on his own understanding of the Word? Nah. Don't think so. Galatians 1:12 says it about as plainly and as clearly as it can get. Revelation is not inspiration. (And there's a whale of a difference.) There is no mistake, no guesswork whatsoever involved. It hits the mark so cleanly and so spot on, it's... well, it's perfect!

reflection in the glass of the astronaut inside. duh

Evidence? Seriously? Sorry if I was being to harsh for you.

DWBH, This is so insightful! After reading this I went to my bible and looked at the Greek word that was translated "given by inspiration of God" in 2 Tim 3:16. Thayer, who I have more confidence in than Strong, defines it as inspired of God. I never really thought deeply on this before, but I can clearly see that this, in no way, equates to "dictated by God". This puts a radically different slant on the content and structure of the bible. That said, I have always believed, and still do in spite of this epiphany, that the bible is the will of God. But now, it seems plausible to me that the letters from Paul could be much more inspired by God to write them, but relying on his own understanding of the Word - which he was an expert on from his training - and the truth of Christ. This could easily extend to the old testament in areas other than where is states clearly, "God said" or "thus saith the Lord". The book of Proverbs is by Solomon, and doesn't say anything about "thus saith the Lord" in it. So this entire book can, clearly, just be Solomon's own understanding of life, not any specific revelation from God. Now I've got a lot of work to do. I don't know if I should thank you or be miffed. LOL!

chockfull........yeah, a mixture of people and problematic corps recruits. You know, everything begins and ends with leadership. I sometimes remind myself that the Old Testament gives vivid illustrations and documentation of the kings of old. When a king did right in the sight of God........the people flourished. When a king did evil in the sight of God.......the kingdom went into bondage. Even though God blessed many of us, individually, in spite of twi and its leadership.........it succumbed to bondage. The legalistic mandates, the trappings of man-made policies and the skewering of scripture took its toll. Those who had the means, and wits, to exit early.......did. In fact, looking back......I often found that the most independent and strong-minded people left FIRST. They did not allow themselves to be cornered.......socially, psychologically or doctrinally. So often, those who were Area Coordinators during in-residence........EXITED. Within two years after my 9th corps graduation..........I would safely estimate that about 60-70 of those 9th corps were gone. Just like the assembling of that way orchestra........so much talent...........then, a couple of years later...........poof, its gone. .

Welcome to Grease Spot, Annio !!! I swear my eyes are getting worse…I had to put on my reading glasses cuz I thought your name was Amino - - as in amino acids which are important in nutrition – i.e. the process of obtaining food for health and growth…that’s cool… Then I put my glasses on and saw your name is Annio…so I look that up and find Annio da Viterbo, an Italian Dominican Friar, scholar and historian…now I know you can’t be him cuz he be daid since 1502…unless you’re here to tell us the dead ARE alive now… So where do we go from here? Maybe combining the two is the key…so I look forward to your input on Grease Spot, from your personal history of TWI, G33r and beyond…lots of food for thought…and healing and growth for all… I usually offer a cup of cappuccino but thought I'd change it up a little…how about amaretto spiked coffee with some ice cream in honor of Italian Dominican Friars

Hello, annio. Welcome and stick around! I met G33r quite a few times when he was at Gartmore involved in the Way of GB. Arrogant and soooo puffed up. Cold, heartless, and mean. There's a few threads about him here. In the meantime, a warm, hearty welcome to you, and someone will be along soon with some coffee for you to settle down with. Seems like my signal for a waiter summoned the wrong kinda coffee.

Hey there, annio. Did you know you name means "no" in Korean? (아 니 요) That's some poetic justice. "Just say NO to TWI"

Back at you, annio! :)

Yeah, chockfull.........there is a major struggle for these wierwille-apologists to internalize what happened. It is really quite something to EXPERIENCE the intimidation, manipulation and exploitation.....year after year. Behind closed doors, wierwille's vehement anger was unleashed on the corps time and again. Everything ratcheted up in 1978........when the rock of ages was "ordained" to be at the root, at hq. 1978..........roa at headquarters! 1978..........last year before adv class went "in-house" 1978..........confrontation of three 8th corps gone research-rogue 1978..........shell of OSC building; transitioning from BRC underway 1978..........more campuses / more corporate structure IMHO........the narcissist set his sights on "his legacy." Full-speed ahead.

Great posts, Skyrider and ChockFull ! I know it’s been said – and my common sense would agree – no one ever knowingly joins a cult… I got involved in ’74, and like you said it was a sweet time of a simple Christian lifestyle for me… what might be a good metaphor for my 12 years of involvement with TWI is the boiling frog fable ...Early on I was not aware of the growing threat behind the Christian mask…but as time went on – the cult’s subtle powers of manipulation and exploitation extended... or should I say intruded further and further into my life…and it wasn’t until I started questioning things in ’86 that I began to suspect there might be a mask - - that something was covering the real problem or problems. I am so thankful there’s a place like Grease Spot - where unmasking a cult is a group effort !

Had to say in passing one more thing - after all these years and tears, these R and R people ("rest and relaxation"?) are being said to have "noticed" and "seen" some things that were wrong. It sounds so normal - like "I went outside and noticed that the air was a tad chilly." But under these circumstances saying they "noticed" something wrong is like saying they went outside and "noticed" the snow was piled 3 feet high in the streets and it was so cold their breath froze....and as if it had just happened and was such a surprise! Or like saying...the people in Houston "noticed it was raining and decided to call it Hurricane Harvey". When I saw the video of those people going on about how what they had "seen" was so wrong, I LOL'd. Really, I don't usually LOL like that but that day I did, and I went to my study (AKA "The Garage Shoppe") and laughed even more, upon reflection. Why did you LOL so, socks? you might ask. Well - read on. The Way's been in a rag tag dyslexic nose dive for decades. Then this. Lurking below the exodus and the bladdy-blah the question wafts by.... What was it that really sparked the exodus? I'll stop, with that question and call it a year. But for those of us who have seen and heard this merry-go-round going round and round so many times over the years we know there's usually something going on a little deeper down that not everyone knows yet. Something that made it personal.....finally. Peace!!! See you round!

T-Bone, Thank you for the warm welcome. Yes, I think I'll be here for some time. It's interesting to hear from the old-timers of TWI. I wasn't actually addressing TWI, but rather the R&R group. But since you raise the point, I have questioned many of the teachings since attending fellowship my first time in 1995. I believe I was the most questioning person in my branch. Mostly, no one could truly explain to the point that I understood why they said what they said. For instance, the no debt policy that was put in place. To insist that leadership not have debt is really a matter of policy, and maybe they could see the benefit in that. I didn't, but I wasn't in leadership, and being relatively new, I also didn't know what was entailed in the functioning of leadership in TWI. But to say a person with debt isn't allowed to take the advanced class or any advanced level teachings on the field, was so incredibly moronic to me. If anything, a person with debt should get even MORE of the word, to learn how to better live without debt. But someone who was having extramarital affairs was welcome to the advanced class! Plagiarism - I don't know if I would call it that. I was looking at Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed, and the bibliography is almost a full 17 pages long. As for qualifications, I know when Craig Martindale left I found out we had some incredible teachers, like Rico Magnelli and Ed Horney, and the like. But they didn't last long. Rosalie started screening the STS teachings, and caused a serious decline in the level and quality of the teachings on Sundays. I felt like I had graduated from college and advanced back to kindergarten. Keep in mind, I started with TWI in November of 1995. The R&R group receives no money from any of us who listen to their teachings. They don't want our money. Instead, they want each of us to give where we see fit. Sorry if I didn't explain that clearly. They have taken to heart what Jesus Christ said, freely they received and freely they are giving. There's no denying the hypocrisy of TWI. That's one of the issues the R&R group has had with them, and a growing issue with the folks here in my area. I personally know a long time believer that just stepped out of any association with them. It caused quite a stir with the leadership here. Because I am currently involved with both groups, TWI and R&R, I am able to share with all of you the most current happenings with them. You seem interested in how things are today, and that's pretty interesting, given all the TWI bashing I have encountered here so far. I was pretty surprised by how much R&R bashing there is already too. They are a new group, still finding their way, and the former way leaders are working pretty diligently at undoing what was done to themselves as well as others. They deserve a little more consideration.

Well I mean eventually you would think the flock would get the hint. Those at HQ want to construct their own little city and live blissfully with their own little vision of being a "worldwide ministry". They don't want to actually interact with the flock though. Nobody travels to see people, nobody has personal contact - the Way ministry is all run through classes, teaching or lesson plans and weekly phone calls. Talk at people consistently, never listen to them, and stubbornly persist ahead with a organizational plan and a thick head. Get those butts in chairs listening to content and get them out knocking on doors getting more people in chairs to listen to content. These "revivalists" are really nothing more than the public Exodus of Boob plus a few friends. Hopefully their video will show a few what's up and inspire leaving. However, I note the highest ranking individual in the video in the Way organization being restricted from disclosing any details due to the fear of prosecution over a signed NDA as an officer of the Way. So I highly doubt that even with their best intentions they are going to affect very many at all under the Way's clutches. Just like Mark Twain's classic novels on Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, now that the fence is whitewashed, it's time to relax and float down the river.

A poisoned well? Or a cracked and broken cistern? I'm inclined to think the former. A well that keeps on supplying, but ruins all it comes into contact with. Doesn't seem like a cistern that is going to run out of water (poisoned or otherwise) any time soon, unfortunately. Contents still trickling out, but enough remaining that people still try to drink.

It's a question I would ask them, and JAL, and anyone else trying to restore the (pfttttttttttttt!) "glory" of Saint Vic's ministry: So tell me, how do you build a fountain of living waters based on water drawn from a poisoned well?

Burnt Chaff chaffing The Way's butt since 2000