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C'mon...be honest...how many of you guys believe even one lousy thing that came out of the piehole of Vic the lowlife Wierwille? Believing equals receiving? If you believe THAT one, you need professional help...the rest of it? The louse lost all credibility with me years ago... I see too many people paying lip service to "Doc's doctrines"...the guy was as phoney as a trombone player with a hair lip...(whatever that means )...C'mon, you guys don't still believe any of that crap...do you?

I think that anyone that left TWI in the past few years would still hold TWI beliefs, and I think that would be normal. I don't think they are being stupid, I think it takes people time to start thinking for themselves without the constant rush to renew their minds back to TWI doctrine. Those habits have to drop away.

Ham, So Linder is still the head of security? Heck, its so quiet about ANYTHING at all going on at "headquarters" now-a-days. This is the middle of August, too. I would've been burning up at the ROA right about now in another time and place. Seems so strange. Like it was all a dream. sudo

By now, most people are familiar with the meaning of "grease spot by midnight". Way doctrine states that God puts a special "hedge of protection" around those who band together as "one true household". Leaving the household places one on the outside of the hedge and thus openly vulnerable to attacks by "the adversary". The common idea that was promoted was that once you were in the household, it would never be safe for you to venture outside. You could become a grease spot in the road by midnight. This concept is fairly straightforward and easily understood. As such, it is also easily debunked. You leave, it doesn't happen---end of story. However, there is another fear motivated concept, that I will call "the ribbon of fear", that is much more complex. It's woven throughout the PFAL series of classes. Simply stated, it's the concept that the devil can (and probably will) possess you unless you force your mind to conform to Way doctrine, otherwise known within the organization as The Word. Bits and pieces of this concept are strewn throughout the various classes. Starting in session seven of PFAL, we learn that Eve's folly was to give careful consideration to what she was hearing. The admonition here is that if one allows their mind to think freely, they could find themself in a perilous predicament just as Eve did. Thus, it is best to not even consider conflicting ideas. In the Intermediate Class, we learn that if our mind is kept preoccupied with speaking in tongues, the spirit inside us will grow stronger and thus repel such attacks. And, we must use endless repetition of Way doctrine to replace genuine thoughts. There are two classes, Dealing With The Adversary and Renewed Mind, that are expressly devoted to promoting this very doctrine. Then, in the AC, we learn that, even if a devil spirit is cast out, it can and will come back unless the person follows this doctrine. In fact, we learn that it will probably come back with addition friends and make the situation even worse. The solution? Never allow your mind to consider thoughts that contradict Way doctrine. Here are just a few examples of "sprinklings" from classes. page 19---AC "A born-again saved believer may become afflicted with evil spirits. The spirits may affect or possess mind and/or body, but not spirit." page 17---AC "They are the cause of mental and physical disease." "They can pass in and out of men and even animals." "Satan may enter divine presence at any time." page 7---DWA HOW WE STAND AGAINST THE DEVIL "You must know HOW God operates. (The PFAL classes have certainly outlined his step by step operation) You must have a spiritual connection line, a system for communicating with God. (The manifestations and their usage provide this.) You must have the proper keys for making yourself subject to God in your walk. (The Renewed Mind is your Key to Power.)" page 6---DWA The Battlefield is in the Mind The way to capture any man in anything is to get him to think like you want him to think. IDEAS CAPTURE MEN NOT WEAPONS. If we win a man's thinking in his mind, if we capture his thoughts, we can indicate and control his actions. It goes on and on and on, woven like a ribbon throughout all the classes. That's the stuff that's so hard to initially untangle from your own thoughts.

vpw came "first", Staff and Safety would both be eggs.

It's not the same thing that happens when you speak in tongues. http://www.religionandspirituality.com/view/post/11622754423000/Scientists_analyze_Pentecostals_brainwaves/ When you speak in tongues, the portion of your brain that governs your "sense of self" is measurably affected. That does not appear to happen in these other circumstances you have cited. We have done other threads about speaking in tongues. If one desires to pursue that angle, it might be best to refer to those threads. My inclusion of it in this discussion is to simply show that it played a role in this whole process of permeating our thinking with fear consciousness. In other words, we were told that without it, our spiritual defenses would be lacking.

shuts part of the brain down? or simply doesn't use it? those studies both support and degate arguments for SIT, depending on what your stance is. jobs, classrooms, television, military . . . this happens everywhere.

I just love the irony............

Building ships in bottles can serve the function of diverting one's thoughts, also, but none of these three examples actually causes the brain to shut down the part of itself that controls critical thinking in the same way as has been scientifically demonstrated with speaking in tongues. Now consider the effects of feeding the mind irrational thoughts while it's in a somewhat defenseless state.

some argue prayer and bible reading serve that function of diverting one's thoughts

True, but in TWI, the idea was that it was imperative to make continual efforts to self delude yourself into accepting Way doctrine and rejecting all else ("En Guard!"-----DWA class) and you were to exercise a practice that helps turn off your critical thinking functions. (S.I.T. much-----PFAL classes I,II,III)

This is not outside of the realm of most of what passes for Christian teaching. The idea that we are continually under attack by the adversary for believing that Jesus is the Christ is taught in most evangelical/fundamentalist groups. Then you have the additional burden as a TWI believer that you are a special target of the adversary because of your more highly evolved doctrine. I happen to believe this tactic was used to keep people from seeing a true cause and effect of the doctrine.

Greasespot is making $20 million in revenues and has no competitors? Act now to get into that market . . .

The purpose of Staff is to keep the people in "da field" in la-la land. "Look, we have miraculously cut grass . . . the world just can't understand . . ." The purpose of Safety is to keep the Staff in la-la land "The Adversary is really angry . . .strange things are happening . . ." I wonder how many Staffers never realized how many ex-wayfers came by to yell at twi? As Safety, we've got to protect the hearts of those on Staff . . .

I repudiated PFAL and VP a long time ago. . . . and not to immediately embrace a more traditional understanding. . . . but, to just not care or believe in anything. After completely throwing the baby, bathwater, and tub out the window. . .With a clean slate I was slowly able to gain some faith. . . but, it was the example and deep steadfast goodness of others that intrigued me. Not some secret knowledge of the bible as it has not been known. . . . or some promise of abundance. It is the doctrine's people still cling to. . . espoused by VP. . . that keep one from noticing the bible actually describes VP perfectly. He masqueraded as a true follower of God, yet look at what his "word" has produced. . . what his doctrines have produced. The suffering and pain and loss for such a small group as TWI is indescribable. Rape, suicide, adultery, child abuse, divorce, anger, resentment, cruelty, psychological problems, and a out right rejection of and anger toward the Jesus of Christianity in many many cases. It produced some bizarre form of spiritual pride and elitism. . . a love for secret knowledge held by a few select at the expense of any real love for mankind. It produced paranoia, mocking, isolationism, an obsession with devils, a rejection of the cross, depression, anixety, fear, and in many cases a real inability to connect with others. Not to mention it ruined church and fellowship outside the group for many still looking for the Christian faith. He was a drunk. . . so filled with lust he raped, abused, and destroyed young women somewhat in his care, to satisfy his own sick desires. He was a serial adulterer. His mouth was full of foul language, mocking, bitterness, and so much bile that he took the Lord's name in vain while "teaching" the bible. He justified his actions with the most incredulous excuses. . . he was "spiritual" enough? But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Why would anyone still believe what he said? Especially if the bible holds some authority with them? By their fruit. . . . no? What always leaves me gobsmacked is when I hear that yes, VP was a bad guy, but that doesn't mean he didn't teach the truth. Well, yes it does. It really does. He KNEW the Christian faith. . . he rejected it. He walked away and sought out something else. . .he didn't want Christianity. . . he didn't LIKE it. He found a way to justify a vile lifestyle, usery, and lust. We got caught up and tricked. . .

Well, it does sort of prove that what goes around comes around.

INTERVIEWER--- Tell me a bit about yourself. MARTINDALE--- Why, I can lick any man in town! INTERVIEWER---Sir, we frown on that sort of activity in the workplace.

Uuummm, ... I believe that the card I signed was green. ... And that the most I got outta my first class was watching the tape reel go round and around ... and around ... and around ... and around ... and around ... :wacko: Oh yeah, and that the designer of those skinny black ties should be strung up and *shot*! Outside of that, ... Nope. Nuthin'.

I don't believe that stuff. In fact, stopped debating that piffle stuff a while back. I realized that it just wasn't worth repeating anymore - even in the name of debunking it.

INTERVIEWER...We are looking for a man who can wear an apron and unload trucks. MARTINDALE...God has spoken to me and I walk with the power of Green Lantern INTERVIEWER...Ummm, We really need someone who knows about moving backstock onto the shelves. MARTINDALE...Lo, I am with thee always...I stand in the gap... INTERVIEWER...Ummm, sir, this is not the "Gap", this is Home Depot...

well, if a potential employer did a background check on him, found the zoom info page then checked out his references at greasespot.com, wellllllllll..........could be an interesting job interview.

Perhaps you have a filter that won't let you see horrific images, or porn.

Welcome to the Matrix,,,

Holy Sh!t. It's a computer generated profile based on "information" gleaned from search engines. Call it artificial intelligence.

I think I only had two (maybe 3) cars during my sojourns to herr holy ground.. one was a 1972 Chevy Brookwood station wagon.. no it did not leak oil, transmission fluid, etc.. but it was a friggin rust bucket.. then there was the 1982 escort hatchback.. It leaked oil like a sieve.. this vehicle was designed by devils, for sure.. it never made it on grounds.. that I can remember.. kinda surreal, eh? :) yeah.. nothing going on now.. all is quiet.. Yep.. seems they are sitting back, just waiting for all the goings on in the USA to just kinda go away.. why they want to bother Belgium.. now that's beyond me. Reminds me of an old old B movie.. I'll have to find the name..

I don't know about you, but my car was banished to gravel lot. Wasn't worthy of parking on that fancy asphalt stuff. every blade of grass is the exact same height. Natural man couldn't pull that off. It must be from a spiritual source i.e. the operation of h.s. in the renewed mind in the household. You're not on Staff to work ya know. Monkeys can work. You're there to operate the manifestations. ever watch these idiots come in to take the Advanced Class? They'll walk up and down Wierwille road to check on the grass blade height. Then they'll come back glowing like Moses down from Mt. Sinai. "All the blades are the same height!! OMG!!" Of course, if they don't come back years later on a Way Run, they call. Now, those are some funny conversations.

When those guys came around we were told they were to be on the ground in cuffs. Never happened. Linder did possess the power to caste the devil spurts out of them. He didn't bother though, because they didn't keep their heads on the werd. So, as soon as they were caste out, the dang spurts would just jump back in again, causin' all sorts of silliness. See how this works? On second thought, let's not go to Camelot . . . It is a silly place . . . I take that back, I forgot, yes it did.

Witnessing this person doing the things he does as Tom pointed out is also done quite often yet not noticed. Tom saw it as a christian value, which is not bad. A hindu would see it as a hindu value. A jew would see it as a jewish value. and so on.... This value is not exclusive as I'm sure Tom and all know. The value itself is not determined by one religion or another. I'm just trying to say that I think Tom's point is about the value seen, and not about a religion or no religion, christian or whatever.

I can't believe the simularities throughout either.

You mention the other conspiracy theories of other sects. I think the main difference, in the case of twi and herr vicster, they simply were spoken, and not published. One can find past issues of spotlight, various sects predictions of the worlds end, etc.. I never remember seeing anything like this in the magazine, or vic's paid newspaper publications. The same goes for outrageous claims in classes.. the original sin, noah's supposed castration, etc. etc.. Perhaps the victoid didn't want to give the world concrete proof that he was a.. fraud?

Reading this post I just got that "Novacaine" feeling all over(and that is decades out of TWI)

And some of the few men who did, seem to develop a distorted memory of how wonderful life was in the good old days

Anyone ever notice how wierwille spent his time with the WOMEN......??? WOMEN were invited to travel on his motorcoach. WOMEN were requested to meet wierwille on his motorcoach. WOMEN sat with wierwille on his cushman. Even cute WOW GIRLS got invites to be with "the mog." MEN????? Hardly ever.

Damned right Leafy Twig! We thought that we were joining a group that was going to teach us all of lifes anweres and Godliness. We thought that we were committing ourselves to a group that was trying to fight the spiritual battle, strike a blow against the adversary. We thought that the leaders were decent christians with morals and character, because of all of that, we trusted them with our lives :( Everything we thought and believed, we did because we were taught that it was God`s will. They took whatever they wanted from us in the name of God. If that isn`r the definition of a cult I don`t know what is. Garth, I disagree, I don`t know any other fundy christian groups that require sexual servitude, forced abortions, encourage abuse,and neglec, decide who you live with and where and even when and where you work. Bolshevik, maybe but many of us never dreamed of rebelling until told that Satan was at work in our parents, family and friends to keep us from the word, that this world was not our home but satans dominion.

Actually people don't join a cult .. they join what they think is a godly group that is a cult in disguise!

Commenting on what Tzaia posted. I have not read the VPW book for many years and no longer have a copy. However, I do remember that one of the first chapters goes into some detail about the many usages in the New Testament where Jesus is called the Son of God. Therefore the book could have had this as the title. This would have not been controversial. But I have heard that VPW wanted the title to be controversial. I do however, agree with you on the book, "One God & One Lord". It is very good and is clearly better than the book by VPW.

Wierwille's book on this subject was actually pretty good. It was just named wrong. It should have been named in a more positive light. For example, the title of this book could have been: "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" Many scriptures that are quoted in the book's opening chapters say this and no Christian in their right mind would argue about this title. And yes, the trinitarians do in fact agree with the statement of this title. I know this because I have talked to a few. They have no argument with the bible saying that "Jesus is the Son of God.

[quote name=notinKansasanymore' date='29 July 2009 - 11:15 AM' ti mestamp='1248891304' post='471939] And speaking of Cash for Clunkers (see, I told you it's impossible to derail),there is no longer a beat-up, gas-guzzling Wowmobile in the niKa driveway. There's an inexpensive, gets-great-gas-mileage, something-reliable-to-commute-to-the-new-job-mobile. And because of the stimulus plan, we can deduct the state and local sales taxes on it. Interesting week. Wooo-hooooo! Karmic, still thinking about you, Sweet Lady. WOO-HOO indeed! And Karmic, me too!

Never have bought anything from QVC or HSN/C... what a wonderful bunch of kids you have there... and the oldest must be incredibly smart, going to the University of Chicago! :)

Oh... (((((((Karmicdebt))))))), I'm SOOOOOO sorry. It is most understandable that you would feel that way.

Hi Tom: http://www.christianherald.info/1-corinthians-12-page-1.html I just reread the above article that I wrote after reading what you wrote here. I think your explanation of ONE spirit is very complimentary to this. I definitely explained this concept, because one spirit is written a few time in chapter 12. However your explanation of one spirit goes into more detail on this. Your explanation is very good. Yes, I understand that when we write we need time to refine so that people can understand what we write with ease of clarity. This takes time. When I wrote my article I must have refined it at lease 7 times. I also had about 5 other people read it while I was writing it to help with the refinement process and give me feed back and contribute with additional understanding. I like and see the importance in working with other knowledgeable people and want to work with you. I can see we would work well together. The only question that both of us needs to answer is how much time do we have to devote to this? Frankly, I wish there were 4 of me. One to do my manufacturing and screen printing business. Another to work real estate. I am a California licensed real estate broker. Another to do web site design. I am currently a student of this with a knowledge of HTML, Cascading style sheets, Dreamweaver, Flash and ActionScript. A fourth one of me to do biblical articles. I am going to send you my e-mail address in a PM. Have a good day Tom. Regards, Mark

Hi Tom: Good to hear from you. When we both get time we can exchange e-mail addresses. Sounds like you are in the process of doing a very good biblical research and teaching project. I definitely like your work so far. Keep up the good work bro. Regards, Mark

Hi Tom: I read what you posted and thought overall it was very good. If you wrote that, and I have no reason to believe that you did not, and would like to post this teaching on my web site, then I would post your article with your name as the author and with copy right notice in your name. My web site is as follows: http://www.christianherald.info I would put your teaching for now third on the list of teachings right after the teachings on the Lordship of Jesus Christ and 1 Corinthians chapter 12. Your writing would make a very good contribution and is the kind of written teaching that I seek.

I agree with you in principle Watered Garden and you made some good points. And getting back to Dot's original discussion points, we can clearly read that there were false apostles in the first century as well. And after Paul's statement in verse 13, Paul immediately expresses that "Satan disguises himself as an angel of light". Or perhaps with VPW Satan disguised himself as some one who said they had new light, light that we had not seen the likes of since the first century. This to me in retrospect was a statement born of boastful talk and would classify one according to verse 12 as a false apostle.

Some good points here as stated by Wordwolf. Thanks my friend.

Happy Birthday George.

Exactly. The person asking about Mr. Bailey indicated he had graduated from the WC. Therefore, I indicated that he could find two persons with that name at the linked website. I gave no thought to how the info would help anyone other than the person who asked the initial question. If the initial inquiry would have been from someone not having been in the WC, I would communicated something different and done so in a different manner... probably offering to pass along contact information from the inquirer to the person asked about, and probably would have done so privately.

Below is a more biblically based definition of Apostle from the Nelson bible dictionary: APOSTLE The word apostle has a wider meaning in the letters of the apostle Paul. It includes people who, like himself, were not included in the Twelve, but who saw the risen Christ and were specially commissioned by Him. Paul's claim to be an apostle was questioned by others. He based his apostleship, however on the direct call of the exalted Lord who appeared to him on the Damascus Road and on the Lord's blessing of his ministry in winning converts and establishing churches (1 Cor 15:10). Apparently, Paul also counted James, the Lord's brother, as an apostle (Gal 1:19). This James was not one of the Twelve; in fact, he was not a believer in Jesus before the Crucifixion (John 7:5). It was the resurrected Lord who 'appeared to James' (1 Cor 15:7) and presumably commissioned him for his ministry. When Paul says Jesus was seen not only by James but also by "all the apostles" (1 Cor 15:7), he seems to be describing a wider group than "the Twelve" to whom Jesus appeared earlier (1 Cor 15:5). In 1 Cor 12:28 and Eph 4:11, apostles are listed along with prophets and other saints as part of the foundation of the household of God. In this strictly New Testament sense, apostles are confined to the first generation of Christians. At an early stage in the church's history it was agreed that apostles to the Jews and Gentiles should be divided into separate camps. Paul and Barnabas were to concentrate on the evangelization of Gentiles; Peter, John, and James (the Lord's brother) were to continue evangelizing Jews (Gal 2:7-9). As pioneers in the work of making converts and planting churches, apostles were exposed to special dangers. When persecution erupted, they were the primary targets for attack (1 Cor 4:9-13). Paul, in particular, welcomed the suffering which he endured as an apostle because it was his way of participating in the suffering of Christ (Rom 8:17; 2 Cor 1:5-7). The authority committed to the apostles by Christ was unique. It could not be transmitted to others. The apostles could install elders or other leaders and teachers in the churches, and they could authorize them to assume special responsiblities; but apostolic authority could not be transferred. Their authority has not come to us through their successors; it has come through their writings, which are contained in the New Testament. (from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright ©1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

There is more than one "David Bailey" at Way Corps social networking site.