Leaderboard

I spent most of my afternoon going through a couple of old boxes of letters, cards, pictures, memory things that I had put off for a very long time, anticipating painful recollections. A time in my life has come full of wonderful changes and plans and it was time to purge some stuff that kept staring at me from those boxes. I laughed at some pictures of 'back in the day', cried at some that signified loss but the most painful was some of my own notes. A condolence card from my brothers wife when my husband died. She shared how he was in a better place now and how God would use him in Heaven. A lovely card with her sharing her heart to me and my children. Then I read a note on the side of the card stating "sent a thank you and a correction to her poor doctrine" O M G how f'in rude was I ! I instantly called her and apologized, 12 years too late and after we spoke, I was overwhelmed with thankfulness for her forgiving heart but still sorrow-filled at my own self righteous attitude to correct her poor doctine in an extention of her condolence to us ! As I dug deeper into the old cards, many of them had little notes on them of similiar rudeness and thoughtless acts; me a better than them cultassface throwing back their love and kindness. I've made alot of phone calls this afternoon.

OK Bolshevik. Spill the beans.. the only picture I get of this scene is a well past middle aged half drunken.. whatever.. blasting away in the woods with something like an eight or ten gauge shotgun (just the enough spread of shot to insure "victory") to rid the holy land of Squirrel infestation. Tell me it isn't true..

I'm posting this link because I've been asked about this group. It is a spinoff group of twi. Capital Area Biblical Studies Fellowship

No matter how often wierwille-apologists heap praise upon wierwille and "his" pfal class.....I can't help but think, "Yeah, but every subsequent class and program led to dependence on twi and control from a multi-leveled bureacracy of its own making." The corps program was wierwille's endgame.........wierwille's brainchild for an army of followers who would serve twi as instructors of pfal classes. Even the ideal "twig fellowship" was a side-show that would be supported and sustained by pfal promotion and involvement. Wierwille was a narcissist....thru and thru. He never could see beyond his own self agendas. When many of the long-standing faithful deserted twi in the 60s.....wierwille failed to recognize his despotism. And, when corps leaders begain exiting in the latter 70s.....wierwille resorted to desperation and name-calling them 'cop-outs' [not even a biblical reference, but a label of disdain]. That labeling should have sent red-flag alerts throughout twi. As ego, elitism and bullying mounted in the late-70s and early 80s......did wierwille ever address this gangrene that was moving in his ministry? Not really.....at least nothing consistent or anywhere near the ballpark of one entitled "the man of God." Quite the contrary......wierwille didn't exhibit anything more than a 'townhall organizer and/or cornfield preacher.' By this time, the major players of wierwille's making were coming to the forefront and the deception had decended upon twi like a dense fog. What came to pass by 1986 was of little surprise when one steps back and looks objectively. Even to this day........'exiled' corps come to GS find THE TRUTH BEHIND WIERWILLE appalling and despicable. It's a tough pill to swallow for any of us who signed on the corps line and wanted to serve God. But perhaps, in learning this deceptive ploy in our 20s......our bullsheet meter is finely tuned today? :B)

You mean they weren't really giving him massages???????

Thanks, Act2 :) I haven't bought it yet b/c I've had lots of reading assignments and hhaven't had time. Maybe someday I'll get around to it. It sounds good.

Now with the Limb homes being in small out of the way places that was more late '70's to mid '80's. That was after VPW's consipiracy theorisms where the government / aliens / illuminati / whatever was trying to take down TWI, and we almost lost our country. So they bought small homes with acreage in out of the way places where if the country went down TWI members could come move onto the property. All that didn't work out too well as they just ended up being large places out of the way that required 3-5 "Limb staff" to upkeep. And of course the country magically didn't end up getting taken over somehow. After VPW died and they lost 80% of people / income, they had to sell off those places, as well as Emporia, Tinney NM, Indiana to stay afloat. They managed to hang onto Gunnison somehow at $2M / yr, and used it for the only location they trained Corps for a while, and now use it for a vacation spot and classes. Witnessing, in the last 15 years since they have taken the "no debt" stance and "no discussion of our research on debt" stance along with preventing anyone from being a fellowship coordinator, going to Adv. class or specials, or going into Corps with any debt, that alone has basically sidelined TWI to alienating the middle class with home mortgages. So basically everyone is ashamed of witnessing to their co-workers and acquaintances in society. Everyone is ashamed - Corps, people, everyone, and won't bring people to fellowship. Not ashamed of "the gospel" as Paul writes, but ashamed of the poor quality and controlling aspects of TWI. And with all the leadership living in rentals there is more restriction on meetings. And they mostly try to meet in "free" locations as well to preserve more money flowing into the delusion farm in Ohio. So they have far less to attract people than even your smallest local church. Der Verd is all they can promote, and even all that is restricted back to all foundational research material. So basically it's a fundamental Christian push targeted towards the 5th grade level with all the "Way" twists on scripture interpretation. In a nutshell their product sucks so their salesman are only selling out of obligation as opposed to out of enthusiasm. And absolutely that includes Corps. But they'll lie about it if asked. Because actually that's the one thing that Corps does best across the board - lie.

OK. Here's the thing. How selfish does one man have to be to institute a program to require lifelong servitude to an organization that has no intentions of providing retirement benefits to it's workers? Without the workers, there would have been no Way Int. and I'm not just talking about the corps.

I sold my book on ebay and had over 70 hits on it. Many people who love VP read about this book. It is the least I can do!!! The person who bought it knows of GS and has posted on another website that was around years ago. Hopefully, he will read it and pass it on, and then sell it on ebay too. May God bless Kristen is a very special way for writing this expose'.

Shellon, congrats to you on the good things that are happening in your life and for making amends. I have done the same thing to family and friends. The Way International taught us to be haughty. I try my best to be compassionate and humble since leaving twi.

And bravo to you, too, it sounds.

Yeah... I think a lot of us had those kinds of things in our twi-history-books. I know I have eaten a lot of crow and made a LOT of apologies since leaving their clutches. One good thing is that I'm a lot more understanding of other peoples' faults and foibles, knowing the stupid, selfish, and hurtful things I've done in my lifetime. Bravo to you for simply picking up the phone and apologizing. That alone will heal most hurts.

I don't really know about god's grace being truly amazing, i'm now an agnostic. i do know that a great friend, who never took the class, brought up jewish, is an agnostic as well, didn't think twice about forgiving me.

Amazing stories ~! I love the learning for me of 'it's the small stuff, really' in that being involved with TWI gave us such a broad stroke in regards to dealing with those that love us and have to witness our arrogance, but so much more those we may have been intimately closer to; dear friends and certainly our family who raised us and never bailed on us when we were acting out of that or just plain being butts. I'm also struck with how bendable the human relationship(s) is when it comes to humility and forgiveness so much of the time. When someone truly loves us, really loves us, they seem to hang on, even if it feels like they aren't, 'til the proctologist locates our head.

Good for you for reaching out and saying you were wrong. Most people are forgiving when they spot humility in someone they love. I was horrible, too. I apologized to my pre-twi-friends when I could find them, also. My BEST friend in college I was not able to find until two yrs. ago. I had always mourned the loss of her friendship after one day on campus when I was doing my know-it-all Way THANG, as a new Way-convert, and she turned to me and said, "I've been a Christian all my life. I don't need YOU to tell me what the Bible says!" as she walked off and out of my life. Anyway, I spotted her address on our college alumni address database in September two yrs. ago after trying to look her up for a long time with no success. I prayed about it until December--about what to say in a letter. Then, I wrote her a letter and apologized and asked her to forgive me in a Christmas card. She didn't write back until Easter time when she sent me an Easter card telling me how surprised she was to hear from me--but pleasantly surprised. I'll cherish that card forever! We are now regular email buddies. Hopefully, we will be able to get together someday and see each other face to face. This brings tears to my eyes just to think about it! The 12 Step Program teaches another way to make amends, if it’s better not to bring up the past, is to treat the other person better when you're with them--to be the respectful, loving friend or family member you wish you'd been in the past. That's what I strive to do now. My family was very rude and controlling towards me when I was "in" and I felt, as an adult, it was my prerogative to associate with whomever and whatever religious group I chose. For that reason, I have never felt the need to apologize to them for the way I acted because they were behaving even more arrogantly and all-knowing than I was, if that's possible. But, of course I dropped the know-it-all attitude by degrees (I wish I could say right away) after leaving the group. On second thought, I think I will apologize to my dad, as I'm reading over this. I think I do owe him an apology. He took the class and I was very controlling towards him during that time. Thanks Pawtucket once again for your labor of love in presenting us with this free therapy board. You are amazing :)

Isn't God's grace truly amazing? WG

When one takes a hard look at what went into it. it's obvious that the program would flop. It was concocted by a man who had no experience whatsoever in ANY sort of training program. It was supposedly based on the Marines-by a man with no military service and an exemption from the draft as a minister. It employed no experts in training for Christian ministry. The only real training ever employed was some of the outdoors/LEAD/rockclimbing, and the entirety of the DALE CARNEGIE SALES TRAINING. (The only professional training the "Christian leaders" got was in SALES!!!) Blow away all the hype, and the "successes" that DID result are the testimony to wonderful hearts on behalf of many of the early entrants.

I've made some of those phone calls. I walked away from my best friend of 13 years as if I never knew her. We were so close that when her mother died when we were 16 years old, I slept at her house that night. I walked away from that friendship, but when I called her she never questioned me, just accepted me back. It wasn't until this year, 32 years later, that I actually apologized.

How rude were you - you ask? Why, no ruder than I was when my Roman Catholic sister-in-law presented me with a lovely sterling silver cross necklace with a diamond on it and as she watched in anticipation of my being delighted to receive such a beautiful gift and instead I asked her "If Jesus had come today and been put to death by electric chair, would you have bought me one of those babies on a chain?" Yeah, we really sucked big-time, but I really try to look at those episodes as I think God does - he looks on our hearts. Our hearts weren't to hurt people, we thought we were educating them. I'm so thankful so many of us are free from all that bondage. I love that you made "cultassface"!!! Outstandingly gigglishous!!! Oh, I forgot the rest of the stow-ry. I took that necklace back to the jewelry store she bought it at and traded it for a pair of "holy spirit dove" earrings - so much more "on the Word," don'tcha know...

Some people never get it. You did. How wonderful.

I'm not so sure that the veil of secrecy was SLOWLY removed...I think it happened rather quickly. When Vic croaked, everything unraveled. Wierwille kept it together with his charismatic personality...Martindale couldn't cut the mustard and it went down the toilet...rather quickly. ...within 2 years of the poops death, the vast majority had left or were leaving...Lcm was a buffoon.

It's hard to say how twi would view the practice of visiting graves...Old Vic made a point of being buried where people would come and visit...under a fountain for crying out loud...Twi should have the decency to respect other people's beliefs and pratices...if a grave site should not be visited, why is it even there? Why place a grave marker with words written on it if it is not to be read?... Memorializing and paying respect is a common practice amoung civilized people. Any so-called Christian organization should at the very least, acknowledge that and accomidate those who come to visit graves...otherwise, they are petty and offensive...just my opinion.

I think you're going to have to get some weights and wrap them around your ankles. You must feel so much lighter that your body won't stay in the bed tonight! I'm glad you finally got that chore done. I don't think you were any more rude than the rest of us were. Some are still there now for heaven's sake! Look at you.....off to a new happier start with what appears to be a sparkling brand new life. Mazel Tov!

"My Name is Earl"

People like those mentioned also develop an intimidation that is mixed with the arrogance and ability to work a crowd, approach an individual and command attention. It's a skill. That coupled with they way they carry themselves and presentation of money and power; people notice and give respect of some sort without even knowing if the fellah deserves it. They'll look ya square in the eyeballs, extend a confident and firm handshake that reeks of honesty and it works, it just works.

CF & S seemed pretty harmless when I took it and helped BB run it at Indy about 1976-77...or was that the one Good Seed ran at Limb HQ? Well, maybe my old Indy buddy you-know-who has some memories, since he and BB and I spent some time together. Anyway, I really had no hint that this meant anything out of the way, so to speak...all the way till I had a "loosening up" lesson worked on me in my last residence year at HQ. Till then, my impression was that among the rank and file, even rank and file corps, there was no non pure sexual suggestions along the lines that happened to Kristen. But that little incident, whose memory was for me magnified by hearing thi8ngs said about me when people didn't know I was hearning them, is an important factor in seeing how all that Kristen describes happened to her.

He was the king,Everyone bowed before him or they were history, One of my first thoughts of the way was,why are there so many pictures of him? You would think everyone revolves around him.Maybe thats why it took me 2 years before I took said miracle class. Once exposed of course it fell apart quickly.

Thank you, Twinky and Waterbuffalo (nice to see you ~!) it has been a beautiful thing for my girls. Samantha was 15 and Kelly 23 months when their father died and so having a memorial tree is important, yes. We've kicked around different ideas as to marking it, a rock, something but we also rent our home so for that reason we've kept it simply a little tree growing in our yard. We do need a place to go and do as we feel comforts us or provides us solice, yes. We were also given a gravesite at a local cemetary. We'll see what we end up doing as time goes. The daddy tree is a place where beloved pets have been buried, flowers have been planted, stories have been told. It's been run over by a snowplow, squashed by a pickup, run over by a lawnmower twice and yet it lives and grows. :) I struggle with our situation; the girls not having something in the world that says their father lived and died, but I also understand that it's not his death that did so much to their lives as it was his life.

which makes me ask.. why would someone with a half a brain or conscience want to resurrect it? The NOVICE running it considers the old corps a success.. apparently he isn't aware, or considers your observations of vic and the old corps to be of any relevance:

Wierwille's corps program was not a leadership program......it was a followship program. Wierwille had no interest in raising up leaders to walk in the steps of Jesus Christ......he devised a "marine-style-follow-orders" program to graduate followers who were trained to be his pfal-class instructors. True to his ideals, wierwille cried his eyes out over the likes of J0hnnie Towns3nd for his "follow-ship and heart to serve" the idolized pfal class. Later, J0hnnie was recognized as honorary corps.....because of his leadership? No.....because of his follow-ship. What was wrong with wierwille's corps program? ... 1) The foundation was twi-dependency....not the author/finisher of faith, Jesus Christ. ... 2) Too vague in promotion of "serving God"......iron-clad obedience upon graduation to twi??? ... 3) Corps "training" was too much rehash of pfal......far too much indoctrination. ... 4) No scope of true ministering....counseling.....relationships.....boundaries....adultery/sin. ... 5) Campus coordinators had to kowtow to wierwille's machinery of regimented control. ... 6) No individuality.....groupthink was standard operation. ... 7) Arrogant leadership monopolize lunchtime announcements during meals. ... 8) Childish songs were sung repeatedly...........subliminal dependency?? ... 9) After graduation, and years later......wierwille still labeled some corps as "cop-outs" ... 10) And, besides the manipulation, intimidation, exploitation...........the SEX PREDATION. When I take a long, hard look at the corps program..........it was a disgrace and disservice to God Almighty from the get-go. Not only was wierwille academically unqualified to oversee the training of future disciples, he was a wolf in sheep's clothing and intent on preying and lusting over the females. The corps program provided the isolation and secrecy for wierwille's sex predation that he voiced in 1969 when he went to those orgies in Haight-Ashbury. As the money poured into twi......the purchase of vp's motorcoach and far-away campuses and soldout bodyguards gave wierwille access to fulfill the lusts of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and wierwille's pride of life: POWER.

79-83 we called ourselves and thought of ourselves as Christians and thought of ourselves as such, mostly claling ourselves believes.. But I would guess that changed in the mid to late 80's as LCM took over... NOT because the foundation wasn't there but because LCM really didn't get what he was doing and how VIC had set it up to catch the most flies. I will say this though that there was a pervading attitude that all other Christians just did not come up to snuff. and we were superior. It was shortly before I left that that attitude was really brought out.. by our LC and his wife... and at a branch function where people were making fun of someone's girlfriend She had attended the meeting she was a Born again Christian (You old timers will know what I am talking about) She went to one of the newer(at that time) evangelistic churches, and was saying praise God and stuff like that. THey were carrying onlike she was stupid and filthy... NOt just them but the bellievers that were in their twig. I stood up for her and got reprimanded... I found it appalling that our believers were making fun of her... It really made me angry. She was quite obviously a born again daughter of God... was planning on taking the class because she wanted to study God's word and they were making fun of her because she was saying praise God. And went to a Church.

I was introduced to a number of rankings for Christians over the years. The ones that stand out most in my mind are: Nominal, Believers, Disciples. Today I read about another: Notional. As defined, a "notional" Christian is one who holds (even passionately) to notions, doctrines, and propositions about Christ (or Christianity in general) yet bear no fruit. Sound like any organization you know?

Heh.. no, I figured that out the moment I walked out of mr. he whose claim to fame is not eating bread and vegetables together limb coordinator's office. It's been a few years.. I usually don't use these kind of words.. but he was (probably still is) a friggin moron.. As leadership, and as it goes for human beings in general, he was probably about as spiritually and intellectually inept as they had to offer.. in one brief moment, I realized we were following fruitcakes..

When I was potty training my first child, Samantha, we lived in Oklahoma and we had Tarantulu's in the yard; she played with them. We should have just gotten the kid a dog. Anyway, into the bathroom one morning as usual, we went for her to do her thing, hopefully. She liked to be alone for this particular project which was fine by me so long as she made the expected deposits. After a few minutes I heard a two year old scream and cuz I'm the mama and her daddy was the daddy, we started our own selves and tripped over each other to get to the owner of the scream. Behind the toilet (ours, not the childs training one) there was a wall covered in little crawling pepper sized tarantula's, their proud new mama overseeing the entire process. It took nearly 6 months to get our toddler to go back into the bathroom. Baths had to be done in a large basin in the kitchen, the potty chair went into her bedroom. Enough spiders in our life, no? Well there was the time this same child, at 13, had a pet tarantula (albeit contained) for a science project; that was fun. She (her name was Rose) could only stay a short time as I was expecting our second child in months and I was not havin' it ! ha, spiders..........................

Perhaps it was a windbreak; I notice that around these parts too, or a fence row that has had trees grow up in it. Wind at least in central Ohio can be quite fierce at times. WG

No, and the sooner that gets through people's heads, the sooner the whole thing will die away into the oblivion that it should be.

Don't be too tough on yourself, WL. Lots and lots of us had no idea what was going on.

LCM had the ministry of a bufoon, clown, and court jester all rolled up in one like Heath Lodge's Joker from Batman: The Dark Knight.

Trust, thank you for the explanation of rhema and logos. It is a bit easier to grasp than before. rhemos is the words and logos is the thought behind those words. And geisha, what can I say, you once again are bringing things up I never gave much thought to before. Thanks for that. I'm still reading some of the posts here bit by bit.

well even being "helped" can be a matter of opinion - but I'll stop there. In a larger scheme of things WWII has no net effect, on a larger time-line all of humanity has no net effect, IMO. The Taliban might be an example. They would likely argue that they are responding to the "evil", the harm, hurting, oppressive, killing by other nations on those they claim to represent. They probably think of themselves as "good". Others would disagree and call them "evil". Who or what is innocent and why? If we view the world as having less resources than can support a given number of beings having a "good life", so to speak, someone is going to get the shaft. How is it decided who lives and how much? A role of the dice plays an enourmous role, IMO. The definitions I think assume that the goals of the "good" are even possible to carry out for everyone.

I'll try and clarify my thoughts, but of course they are just my thoughts on the subject, and may not make any sense at all! Both are Greek words. rhema and logos. Both are 'primarily' translated with the same English term 'words'. But their meaning is different. Rhema at its simplest meaning would just mean 'words'. Such as God's words, what is recorded in scripture. What one says and writes. And sorta defines a language. Logos on the other hand comes from a root that means to collect and at the heart of the word logos is a myriad of thoughts and concepts collected together, they are then synthesized then into words. But those words don't always fully explain or define the entire 'collection' that is being explained. Have I complicated it more? When one speaks about God's rhema, they are speaking of specific words written. Black and white. Every yod and tittle. But when one speaks of God's logos, they attempt to speak of the meanings and understandings, the heart and collection of God's thoughts behind the specific rhema(words). God is certainly love. Those are the specific rhema(words). But what they mean, we can only attempt to explain. For God is greater than us all. But if we look at who He is, what has been revealed about Him, and what He has revealed to us, I think we can start to understand His nature, and understand what He means, the logos, the thoughts, behind these black and white writings. God didn't have the scriptures written so we have a black and white book to read and memorize. He wrote it as the starting point to a relationship with Him. A "how to" on coming to Him personally and having that relationship to know Him, and by doing that, we can know Him personally and reveal Him to others by imitating Him(His love, His care, His charity, His ways).. And yes even his hatred for evil. All that is part of sharing God's love. But on this subject of evil. That surely God hates, and we ought to as well if we are to imitate Him. It doesn't remove the fact that God loves His creation. Each and every part of it. He created it with a purpose in mind. But hates it when it turns from what it was created for. Yet there is nowhere I've seen that God has refused forgiveness to those who return to Him. Not the devil, not a person, not a nation. And while he has pronounced destruction to all those who turn away, including the devil, He has changed that pronouncement when people and nations have turned back to Him, and that is recorded many times in the scriptures. Which to me speaks loudly of God's nature. While He is willing to alert those of their impending destruction, He is always willing to change that initial pronouncement to those who in their hearts turn back to Him. And while I doubt the devil also will ever turn, I believe God is willing if it were to happen. For this is God's love manifest (1 John). And also, 'For God so loved the world that He gave His one unique son that whosoever puts their trust in him, should not perish but have life everlasting'.

Okay Trust: I think I'm following along a little bit better now. And I have heard a couple of other preachers talk about this, and at the time I really didn't follow what they were trying to say either. So I appreciate the post, though it is going to take a coule of more readings to sink in. And yes, agape, charity, is a much more fitting word. When a church is spiritually dead, this is what is missing most, from my own experience anyway. They could have ( or THINK they have) the greatest doctrine of all, but without charity, it's dead. Hmm, First Corinthians 13 seems to fit in with that. Thanks for the post. The other posts, well, it's late and I will have to read them later!

I apologize if I made no sense. It is hard to explain thoughts in my head! But I will try and elaborate a little. I just hate to type long winded posts... Bore everyone to death! lol. To start, I think it is important that when we speak of love, we can be speaking of a myriad of things. But when we speak of God's love we speak of something a little more specific. In 1 John 4 we read that God is love. But it goes further, it says, 'He that does not love, knows not God.', and it answers why that is, because God is love. To know God is to be capable of love. Why? Here is where the Hebrew word for love is most revealing to me, the word AHB. The word in its most simplest meaning means 'to reveal the Father'. Now, there are other love's, such as the emotion love, the sexual love, and so on and so forth. But when we speak of God's love, we are not speaking of emotions. We are not speaking of thoughts. We are speaking of God himself and revealing His being, His ways, His care, His truth, His love. Thus back to 1 John, it is impossible to love (reveal the Father[God]) without first knowing Him. Those who honestly know only know Him in part and therefore can only reveal in part. Christ came to reveal God, the prophets revealed God, many throughout history have revealed God. They do so by imitating Him. Ephesians 5:1 'Be ye imitators of God...'. But since no one knows all, our glimpse of who God is, and His love, is limited. But I much rather like the KJV translation of agape as 'charity' because it describes God's nature of one who gives and cares, more so than our English word love which usually is just an emotional term which doesn't clearly fit the definition of agape in 1 Cor 13. ... tbc

I think "feigned" would more accurately describe it.

Great question and I'd like to hear the answer as well. :) I think that's a great point about righteous anger. I think that is what I was struggling with. I do NOT want to get into a wayfer tangent here, but I remember going to one of their small offshoots in the 90s and at that time they were still teaching stuff like the devil was responsible for the flood, and the angel of death was actually one of the devil's servants not one of Gods. One of the other offshoots (whom I won't name because I don't want to get into another tangent) came out with just the opposite teachings saying that it WAS God who sent the flood, angel of death, etc...and in no way would God use the devil working as His agent etc.. and I believe they went into the righteous anger of God, and they really made a lot of sense. But yes, you point out some great truths, all in all. Yeah, satan sure can't save himself. So should he even bother when he can take a lot of people down with him at the least, I guess. Brideofjc! Hi! :) Believe me, I know TBAA is only a show. They really miss the boat on a lot of things, which is why we can't depend on TV to be the ambassadors of truth, no matter how well meaning they are. I think the thing that bugs me most is that they never mention the name of Jesus in any episodes. The executive producer (who is a Christian woman) said that they wanted to reach a larger audience and that was their reason why. But that being said it does bring home a lot of things that people need to hear. And for that I applaude the show. Besides, Andrew, the angel of death, is a real cutie.