Sloppy use of words? Probably, but I think we are all guilty of that at times.
An attempt to overcome the will of another? In some cases I would say yes. I think many of us had experiences with other people in TWI who wanted to overcome our own wills for ourselves with their own will for us.
But, I don't think that would apply to everyone in TWI. So, I guess it depends on who the person is making the statement, what the context is, if there is pressure being applied or if they simpy mean it in the sense of "hope to see you there" but using different terminology.
They adopt it because of what they believe. I have heard a number of Christians from various denominations and organizations use terminology that I thought was odd. However, to them, it was perfectly normal.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not knocking prayer and commitment to other people – I’m considering inappropriate terminology.
It seems to me that it’s a sloppy use of a word, a fear of using the word “hope” in its modern usage, and perhaps even disrespectful of other people and their own free will and beliefs.
I think the word "blessed" was used incorrectly as well. I remember me, and my WOW sister and brother worked together at a restaurant. We two girls were waiting for the guy to get off work. We were sitting in the break area, and we said "I bet Mark would be blessed if we saved this cigarette for him." One of our co-workers said "Blessed??? WTF???"
"Believing" was thrown around way too loosley in TWI IMHO. Way Believer type of "believing" seemed to put more emphasis on the person doing the work instead of allowing God to work.
My Mom and sister prayed for me to leave TWI for over 10 years. During that time, there was no way I would have even considered it. In my mind, I was a lifer in TWI. But I do think that their prayers allowed God to prick my heart and allow me to see what I needed to see in order to make my own decision to leave. Did they believe? I think they prayed and left the work to God.
I also think that terminology was used to strongarm people in to doing things.
"I was believing you would make it to the Advanced Class this year."
What about desire and planning? We were taught in order to see something to come to pass in our lives it was according to the 4 Ds:
Decision
Desire
Details
Deliverance
I really think this was backwards. It's hard to make a decision when you have no desire. Maybe that was part of the mind control formula?
The concept of "believing" to me is not a conscious effort. I always thought of it as I would thinking of standing up from a chair.
Do you have to make a conscious effort to believe your legs will hold you? or that the floor will be solid? No! Our endeavors to believe for something was basically just wishing as in I put a buck on the lottery hoping I hit it not believing I will .
went to my brother's funeral a few months back and when I returned, I called a friend,who is still in twi, and he asked how the trip went, I said,"I was really tired and had just got in from the airport', his comment back to me was, "So it was an UnEVENTFUL time"!!!! I said yes, and just hung my head..sad for me and sad for him...because there was no emotion..duh..
there is something wrong here folks..these attitudes are just words strung together.......
perfecting of the saints has 0 to do with cookie cutter thinking..
I don't recall where I heard it taught, but in some formal setting such as a class or Sunday Night Service(SNS), it was stated that "All prayer is believing."
Not only do I no longer think this is accurate, I think it is a harmful perspective from which to consider the meaning of prayer.
It suggests that the results of our prayer will be determined by the believing we apply to it.
In other words, it implies that we, not God, determine the outcome of our prayers.
Regarding the use of the word "hope":
I was taught as early as the early 1970s that the word "hope" reflected an attitude of uncertainty and as such was seen as a form of "negative believing". We were never to use the word "hope" unless we were talking about The Hope of Christ's return.
We were told it was OK to use HOPE in this context because---" All the negative believing in 'the world' can't can't stop him from coming back as King of Kings, Lord of Lords and Lord God Almighty."(VPW)
There was frequently this sort of attitude that we could alter the course of history by simply thinking about it.
That kind of thinking is self delusional and potentially very harmful, sometimes even lethal.
Plain and simple when God gave dominon to Adam and Eve He never gave them donminon over each other. So, if (note the word "if") believing is a law it would break this principle. Believing is a really bad way of putting anthing in terms of receiving something you haven't got.
I like the word faith, because in includes the idea of faithfullness and trust. I might believe someone, but not trust and have confidence in them.
I really like the definition I heard from Copland and others "Hope is the ernest expectation of a promised good." I think of it as being like waiting for a promised check in the mail. I'm hoping to receive it every day, but I don't have it, so I'm hoping for it.
i was just trying to be creative. I felt like I had used the word blessed so damn much at the advanced class, i was sick of it.
Create was one of the bad words too if you were referring to you or somone else being that way. I"m so glad I don't have to be so anal about word usage anymore.
What does it mean when people use “believing” as in to do something or for something to happen? As is:
"Believingto see you [let’s say, Johnny Jumpup] at fellowship/work/the park tomorrow”
“Believing for you [let’s say, Bill Bludger] to pass your exam/get your money together”
“Believing that [let’s say, Maggie Muggins] will one day come to the Lord”
Seems sloppy use of language to me. Believing? It’s a desire (and “whatsoever things ye desire,” etc…) but there are surely other factors at play. Like the other person’s free will.
Where I share your observation on the misuse of the word, I don't think you can surmise the definition from the one verse you refered to in the Gospels as conclusive.
In one dictionary. One of the definitions of the word "believe" is "a state of mind". Uniquely, it is often used as a verb. Which connotes a state of mind or action. Personally, 'desire' sounds like a misuse of a word somewhere.
"Expecting to see you there" would be a lot more accurate and it allows the person to know there is a commitment involved to getting there and that you expect them to make and keep such a commitment.
You are very correct. The word was misused. Typically a word misused is a direct result of laziness or lack of eduction regarding it's proper usage. We all suffer from the misuse of words. People say they get 'mad' when actually, they are frustrated or disappointed. Sometimes even angry. But because of a lack of thinking about it, they associate frustration or disappointment with anger.
I'm 52 years old this March. I haven't had a "bad" day in 32 years. I'm not stupid! I've had a lot of 'hard' or 'difficult' days. A 'bad' day would be 24 hours of bad. Having had 3 brain surgeries, I can tell you without hesitation there were some 'bad' moments and even 'bad' hours. But they just made the day difficult.
At my age, I'm starting to see more and more difficult days. My motivation to get up and go to work is lower than it's ever been. My ability to adapt to uncomfortable situations is less compromising. My ability to put up with stupid people and situations is stretched and my patience is much thinner than it should be. But then, I'm at a great time in my life! I've done and seen more things than most people I went to school with ever dreamed. I've survived things that would kill the average person. In fact, a class mate of mine died of a brain tumor in his 30's.
All of this makes you go "Humph!
The 5 catagories of believing taught by VPW are still the best work I've seen. Now, I'm sure someone will say he plagerized it from someone else. But it was still taught by VPW to me. If someone else figured it out first, then why couldn't they figure it out enough to get it out to the denominations and to me? The denominations misuse 'faith' or 'believing' more than any group of believer's in TWI ever did. They can't distiquish between senses faith and the manifestation of faith. At least, most in TWI were exposed to the difference. Churchianity will never get it because 'it's a gift'.
The 5 catagories of believing taught by VPW are still the best work I've seen. Now, I'm sure someone will say he plagerized it from someone else.
I don't think this was one of the things he plagriarized or learned from someone else, I believe that this is one of Wierwille's "unique" doctrines.
But it was still taught by VPW to me. If someone else figured it out first, then why couldn't they figure it out enough to get it out to the denominations and to me?
If this was taught in "the denominations" (as if TWI wasn't a denomination) then it would have reached a heck of lot more people than Wierwille ever did
The denominations misuse 'faith' or 'believing' more than any group of believer's in TWI ever did. They can't distiquish between senses faith and the manifestation of faith. At least, most in TWI were exposed to the difference.
Only if you accept Wierwille's false distinction between "believing" and "faith" as true. Wierwille drew a contrast between two words, that although dissimilar in English, are translated from the same word in Greek. He also outlined 5 supposed kinds of believing, but never really defined them from the bible; I would venture to say that most wayfers and ex-wayfers would admit confusion as to what Wierwille actually taught about the other 4 types of believing.
Churchianity...
<_<
...will never get it because 'it's a gift'.
Even if it's a manifestation...where's the definition?
Mr. Wierwille wished for something on his deathbed.....
He said....."I wish I were the man I know to be."
And, if HE can use it, so can I...........I wish that I'd never signed the green card.
...
...and I wish that I had never given them one dime of my money...but you know what they say, sh *t in one hand and wish in the other, and one hand will get full.
OK. More false doctrine here brought to you by Lucky Strikes and me.
The five catagories of the word 'Pistis'.
Senses Faith (believing) : The believing used by senses man. We all use it. We believe if we sit in the chair, it will hold us up. It's typically conditional on circumstance (we won't believe the chair will hold us up if it's broken...but we will believe a new chair will)
Faith of Jesus Christ: This was taught as being innate within the believer and synonymous with being born-again, filled with the spirit.
Manifestation of Faith: This is the one with the Advanced Class definition. The manifestation of faith is your God-given ability to bring to pass the impossible at your command once you have ascertained the neccessary information by Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom or Discerning of Spirits. It also inspires believing in others. examples: Moses parting the Red Sea, Jesus walking on the water, turning water into wine, and healing people.
Fruit Faith: Listed amoung the 9 fruits of the spirit in Galatians. As close as I remember it, it was a result of walking by the spirit of God.
Family Faith: This is the believing within a group of people as seen in Acts when the earthquake opened the jail doors for Peter. Acts has a lot of examples of this. Example:People getting healed at the passing of Peter's shadow.
In the Bible, the only times when it was possible to believe for someone else or in their stead was if the person was mentally incapacitated or if they were dead.
I never knew Chxxs Gxxr published a work on this. To my knowledge, these are the only catagories taught by VPW. I never thought of it as 'doctrine'. I just thought of it as a huge deal to know the boundries we have to work in. IMHO these boundries assist us to walk in the unlimited grace of God.
Oh yes I remember that stuff. The expression now comes to mind, "straining at gnats" or "nit picking". (Perhaps some of the purported difficulties could have been avoided by using expressions like "confidence" instead of "believing". We could even have referred to different versions of the Bible by way of comparison, to see how these "usages" were translated elsewhere. But no, we have to engineer difficulties so that we can get puffed up in our special knowledge of the Word.)
Not sure where any of these fit with:
• "Believing to see Johnny Jumpup at fellowship/work/the park tomorrow”
• “Believing for Bill to pass the exam”
• “Believing that Maggie will one day come to the Lord”
but the nearest definition is the first (senses based).
Still not convinced it's other than sloppy use of language.
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Abigail
Sloppy use of words? Probably, but I think we are all guilty of that at times.
An attempt to overcome the will of another? In some cases I would say yes. I think many of us had experiences with other people in TWI who wanted to overcome our own wills for ourselves with their own will for us.
But, I don't think that would apply to everyone in TWI. So, I guess it depends on who the person is making the statement, what the context is, if there is pressure being applied or if they simpy mean it in the sense of "hope to see you there" but using different terminology.
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Twinky
If they meant "hope to see you there" why not just say that? Why adopt instead an unusual way of speaking?
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Abigail
They adopt it because of what they believe. I have heard a number of Christians from various denominations and organizations use terminology that I thought was odd. However, to them, it was perfectly normal.
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Belle
We were not allowed to use the words "hope", "wish", "luck" and so many other normal words that would make conversations sounds, well, normal.
Of course, praying for someone is according to YOUR will, not God's. I distinctly remember getting reamed for praying, "If it is YOUR will...."
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oldiesman
That's a good point and I agree with you Twinky.
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Nottawayfer
I think the word "blessed" was used incorrectly as well. I remember me, and my WOW sister and brother worked together at a restaurant. We two girls were waiting for the guy to get off work. We were sitting in the break area, and we said "I bet Mark would be blessed if we saved this cigarette for him." One of our co-workers said "Blessed??? WTF???"
"Believing" was thrown around way too loosley in TWI IMHO. Way Believer type of "believing" seemed to put more emphasis on the person doing the work instead of allowing God to work.
My Mom and sister prayed for me to leave TWI for over 10 years. During that time, there was no way I would have even considered it. In my mind, I was a lifer in TWI. But I do think that their prayers allowed God to prick my heart and allow me to see what I needed to see in order to make my own decision to leave. Did they believe? I think they prayed and left the work to God.
I also think that terminology was used to strongarm people in to doing things.
"I was believing you would make it to the Advanced Class this year."
What about desire and planning? We were taught in order to see something to come to pass in our lives it was according to the 4 Ds:
Decision
Desire
Details
Deliverance
I really think this was backwards. It's hard to make a decision when you have no desire. Maybe that was part of the mind control formula?
To me, desire indicated God was working in you.
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skyrider
Mr. Wierwille wished for something on his deathbed.....
He said....."I wish I were the man I know to be."
And, if HE can use it, so can I...........I wish that I'd never signed the green card.
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bulwinkl
The concept of "believing" to me is not a conscious effort. I always thought of it as I would thinking of standing up from a chair.
Do you have to make a conscious effort to believe your legs will hold you? or that the floor will be solid? No! Our endeavors to believe for something was basically just wishing as in I put a buck on the lottery hoping I hit it not believing I will .
John
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likeaneagle
went to my brother's funeral a few months back and when I returned, I called a friend,who is still in twi, and he asked how the trip went, I said,"I was really tired and had just got in from the airport', his comment back to me was, "So it was an UnEVENTFUL time"!!!! I said yes, and just hung my head..sad for me and sad for him...because there was no emotion..duh..
there is something wrong here folks..these attitudes are just words strung together.......
perfecting of the saints has 0 to do with cookie cutter thinking..
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waysider
I don't recall where I heard it taught, but in some formal setting such as a class or Sunday Night Service(SNS), it was stated that "All prayer is believing."
Not only do I no longer think this is accurate, I think it is a harmful perspective from which to consider the meaning of prayer.
It suggests that the results of our prayer will be determined by the believing we apply to it.
In other words, it implies that we, not God, determine the outcome of our prayers.
Regarding the use of the word "hope":
I was taught as early as the early 1970s that the word "hope" reflected an attitude of uncertainty and as such was seen as a form of "negative believing". We were never to use the word "hope" unless we were talking about The Hope of Christ's return.
We were told it was OK to use HOPE in this context because---" All the negative believing in 'the world' can't can't stop him from coming back as King of Kings, Lord of Lords and Lord God Almighty."(VPW)
There was frequently this sort of attitude that we could alter the course of history by simply thinking about it.
That kind of thinking is self delusional and potentially very harmful, sometimes even lethal.
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dmiller
When others had *opportunities* (financial, physical, whatever),
I was asked to *believe* for their deliverance.
Whenever someone wanted corps sponsorship and came to me for it,
I was asked to *believe* (along with a monthly donation), for them.
I had no problem praying for them, but praying equaled *believing*,
in the world of twi and all mogdom involved back then.
While I did (back then) say I'd pray and *believe* for them,
what I really wanted to say (but was under twi constraints to NOT say was),
GOOD LUCK!!
Sadly -- that wasn't *available*. :(
*Believing* was definately a term used out of context.
With dire consequences.
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Keith
Plain and simple when God gave dominon to Adam and Eve He never gave them donminon over each other. So, if (note the word "if") believing is a law it would break this principle. Believing is a really bad way of putting anthing in terms of receiving something you haven't got.
I like the word faith, because in includes the idea of faithfullness and trust. I might believe someone, but not trust and have confidence in them.
I really like the definition I heard from Copland and others "Hope is the ernest expectation of a promised good." I think of it as being like waiting for a promised check in the mail. I'm hoping to receive it every day, but I don't have it, so I'm hoping for it.
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anotherDan
Keith... brilliant observation about Adam and Eve.
To be fair, I would have to say that from 74 - 89, I rarely heard such a blunder. I would say the vast majority of us knew better than that.
I've dropped nearly all of the Way lingo from my conversation.
I do retain "blessed" but use it more sparingly, and more meaningfully. Very useful and meaningful word. Glad I picked that one up.
Belle, I thought you handled the other side of the coin very neatly. Same coin, of course. Special "insider" lingo... we spoke so ACCURATELY, yaknow.
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nandon
one time i used visulaize instead of believing.
i said, "im visualizing seeing you at the AC special"
the person i said it to replyed, "you mean believing?"
i was just trying to be creative. I felt like I had used the word blessed so damn much at the advanced class, i was sick of it.
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Nottawayfer
Create was one of the bad words too if you were referring to you or somone else being that way. I"m so glad I don't have to be so anal about word usage anymore.
Merry Christmas everyone!
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anotherDan
Notawayfer. Ah yes. "create" how about "sincerety"?
There are also a whole host of theological and biblical terms that have for me lost their Wayferness:
and ideas represented by these and other Wayferly words:
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YID
Where I share your observation on the misuse of the word, I don't think you can surmise the definition from the one verse you refered to in the Gospels as conclusive.
In one dictionary. One of the definitions of the word "believe" is "a state of mind". Uniquely, it is often used as a verb. Which connotes a state of mind or action. Personally, 'desire' sounds like a misuse of a word somewhere.
"Expecting to see you there" would be a lot more accurate and it allows the person to know there is a commitment involved to getting there and that you expect them to make and keep such a commitment.
You are very correct. The word was misused. Typically a word misused is a direct result of laziness or lack of eduction regarding it's proper usage. We all suffer from the misuse of words. People say they get 'mad' when actually, they are frustrated or disappointed. Sometimes even angry. But because of a lack of thinking about it, they associate frustration or disappointment with anger.
I'm 52 years old this March. I haven't had a "bad" day in 32 years. I'm not stupid! I've had a lot of 'hard' or 'difficult' days. A 'bad' day would be 24 hours of bad. Having had 3 brain surgeries, I can tell you without hesitation there were some 'bad' moments and even 'bad' hours. But they just made the day difficult.
At my age, I'm starting to see more and more difficult days. My motivation to get up and go to work is lower than it's ever been. My ability to adapt to uncomfortable situations is less compromising. My ability to put up with stupid people and situations is stretched and my patience is much thinner than it should be. But then, I'm at a great time in my life! I've done and seen more things than most people I went to school with ever dreamed. I've survived things that would kill the average person. In fact, a class mate of mine died of a brain tumor in his 30's.
All of this makes you go "Humph!
The 5 catagories of believing taught by VPW are still the best work I've seen. Now, I'm sure someone will say he plagerized it from someone else. But it was still taught by VPW to me. If someone else figured it out first, then why couldn't they figure it out enough to get it out to the denominations and to me? The denominations misuse 'faith' or 'believing' more than any group of believer's in TWI ever did. They can't distiquish between senses faith and the manifestation of faith. At least, most in TWI were exposed to the difference. Churchianity will never get it because 'it's a gift'.
Funny how one subject always dovetails into many.
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Oakspear
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Twinky
Five categories of believing? Don't remember this one, did I forget it or was it never beaten into me? Remind me, someone.
And is one of them "believing to override someone else's free will"?
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Ham
There was a sixth one, known only to the inner chosen..
"believing" so loud, as to keep the wolves awake..
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doojable
I "believe" (;)) that would be the work of Chri5 G3er. He did work on "pistis" for vpw.
And I also think that the four D's were Loy's work.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and I wish that I had never given them one dime of my money...but you know what they say, sh *t in one hand and wish in the other, and one hand will get full.
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YID
OK. More false doctrine here brought to you by Lucky Strikes and me.
The five catagories of the word 'Pistis'.
Senses Faith (believing) : The believing used by senses man. We all use it. We believe if we sit in the chair, it will hold us up. It's typically conditional on circumstance (we won't believe the chair will hold us up if it's broken...but we will believe a new chair will)
Faith of Jesus Christ: This was taught as being innate within the believer and synonymous with being born-again, filled with the spirit.
Manifestation of Faith: This is the one with the Advanced Class definition. The manifestation of faith is your God-given ability to bring to pass the impossible at your command once you have ascertained the neccessary information by Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom or Discerning of Spirits. It also inspires believing in others. examples: Moses parting the Red Sea, Jesus walking on the water, turning water into wine, and healing people.
Fruit Faith: Listed amoung the 9 fruits of the spirit in Galatians. As close as I remember it, it was a result of walking by the spirit of God.
Family Faith: This is the believing within a group of people as seen in Acts when the earthquake opened the jail doors for Peter. Acts has a lot of examples of this. Example:People getting healed at the passing of Peter's shadow.
In the Bible, the only times when it was possible to believe for someone else or in their stead was if the person was mentally incapacitated or if they were dead.
I never knew Chxxs Gxxr published a work on this. To my knowledge, these are the only catagories taught by VPW. I never thought of it as 'doctrine'. I just thought of it as a huge deal to know the boundries we have to work in. IMHO these boundries assist us to walk in the unlimited grace of God.
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Twinky
Oh yes I remember that stuff. The expression now comes to mind, "straining at gnats" or "nit picking". (Perhaps some of the purported difficulties could have been avoided by using expressions like "confidence" instead of "believing". We could even have referred to different versions of the Bible by way of comparison, to see how these "usages" were translated elsewhere. But no, we have to engineer difficulties so that we can get puffed up in our special knowledge of the Word.)
Not sure where any of these fit with:
• "Believing to see Johnny Jumpup at fellowship/work/the park tomorrow”
• “Believing for Bill to pass the exam”
• “Believing that Maggie will one day come to the Lord”
but the nearest definition is the first (senses based).
Still not convinced it's other than sloppy use of language.
Believing verging on plain wishful thinking...
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