Thanks T-Bone and Doojable ... much clearer now ...
Maybe I need a timeline ...
1984? lcm humiliates twi with AOS ... football player in tights with girlfriends
1986 POP and follow up rev meeting ... all sane people left (cuz that is when I left )
1987? people excommunicated just for reading the "devilish" adultery paper
1989 oath of allegiance to lcm as mogfart
199? lcm makes a deal ... becomes ceo of Home Depot
2002 GSC opens ... hundreds get possessed by reading posts ....
2008 v2p2 starts way corpse 2 ... the dead are alive now
then on the bottom side of the line ... when the splinter men branched of and started collecting their own abs
But anyway ... The Secret Agenda Society really revealed their roots were not in da wurhd when they chose obvious vicster error over any semblance of humility to reproof. It really was a den of iniquity, and they didn't want to give it up.
Vic at least built the web (of deceit) ... these current folks are just inherited it ...
I can help with a few of timeline items mentioned in this post, since I was at HQ:
April 23, 1986 - PoP read at Corps night (about 2 and 1/2 hrs.) in WOW Auditorium at HQ and off-site Corps on the field via dial-in phone-hook-ups
And sometime within those 2 events it was announced that there would be an abstinence from any new research from the Research Dept.
I remember listening to a Corps night hookup or a tape where Walter mimicked the statement, at the time I remember wondering why, and not being able to put my finger on it.
The ruling of course, came down from C Geer, because of the Schonheit paper....
Okay, I listened to RD's interview of 'Through the Fog' a second time.
And, it BEGS the question......If adultery was so *godly* why wasn't it OPENLY taught?
Wierwille taught this stuff to who?????......THE SECRET AGENDA SOCIETY.
And, the QUESTIONS keep on coming......
....1) Why is adultery listed FIRST in the works of the flesh [Gal. 5:19-21]..??
....2) If wierwille was rooted in DECEIVING OTHERS AND HIMSELF (via this adultery 'doctrine' -- that some trace back to his van wert days)........was the corps program established with altruistic motives?....or was it fabricated in an intoxicating stupor to better 'serve his predation?'
....3) How could wierwille NOT see the long-term effects on these corps/staff/wow girls??......not being able to comprehend the long-range ramifications on these girls who would someday become mothers, and mothers would become grandmothers, and grandmothers would become great-grandmothers??
....4) And, even in the *sunset years* of his reign.........NO REPENTANCE, but rather mentoring and encouraging martindale (and others??) to follow wierwille's (tupos) adultery pattern??.....[Matt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornication, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.]
....5) And, ge-er wanted to 'clean up twi'......yet, he sets the stage to VIGOROUSLY AVOID THIS TOXIC AGENDA THAT WIERWILLE UPHELD FOR DECADES??
First and foremost I want to make sure that it is understood that the following is in no way meant to be disrespectful or demeaning. I am trying to make sense of all that has happened since the "Secret Agenda Society".
if you've read schoenheit's adultery paper, you too must wonder why he was fired for writing it,
!...........and yet, the reaction was the firing of the lynn's, and the widespread and meanspirited defamation and disinformation campaign against the others who participated in the letter thing.
Schoxnheit writes a research paper on adultery.........and WALTER SHUFFLES IT AWAY????
What is this with the incessant NEED to be DIFFERENT?
It seems to me, the more they try to be "different".. the more they stay the same..
It's like.. slowly, one class at a time, one meeting after another, one dedication to the vicster after another.. one program after another, which some are identical in name to one in the old *ministry*..
along with a *loosely* affiliated "survivor" program which will only resurrect the same kind of hierarchy and arrogance in their *loosely affiliated* groups..
aren't they becoming what they abandoned, and detested?
It sort of appears to me these guys are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Not saying they have not made mistakes but do we honestly believe these guys are likened to the infamous Secret Agenda Society.
How can anyone teach anything that they may have learned while in TWI without being labeled as a heretic.
During the last 25+ years I have absorbed information from many bonifide, Bible college educated ministers with degrees and as far as I can tell they are just as inclined to teach according to the party line as any so called offshoot.
I suppose if we just went along with Constantine we would follow the dictate of the Council of Nicaea.
Some criticize because an organization has a mission statement, others say leaders need to be held accountable so the must be held to biblical standards. So what if the mission statement is derived from biblical standards?
If anyone else has what they believe to be the correct teaching please lay it out here so we can dissect it. It may be that I am being naive but I am willing to re-evaluate what I have been taught. I am not willing to chuck it all just because it was once taught by TWI. I consider John S. as I do many of you as a valuable resource. That does not mean I am willing to relegate my understanding of the scriptures to any so called man of God anymore.
Is it wrong for someone to get paid for teaching, preaching, researching etc? No doubt there are those who have blatantly abused the charity of believers but does that make anyone whose livelyhood is ministering forbidden.
I am not trying to necessarily defend any certain individual but it is more of an effort to try to work together.
It sort of appears to me these guys are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Not saying they have not made mistakes but do we honestly believe these guys are likened to the infamous Secret Agenda Society.
How can anyone teach anything that they may have learned while in TWI without being labeled as a heretic.
jeast........imo, I don't necessarily liken 'these guys (splinter groups) to the infamous Secret Agenda Society.' What wierwille spearheaded in twi took decades to devise and deceive.......from carjacking BG Leonard's class to wholesale plagiarism, from adultery to suicide victims, from conspiracy theories to paranoia, from stage persona to inner circle secrets, from 'the law of believing' to 'the absent christ', from small camper to motorcoach, from teaching 'cancer is a devil spirit' to dying of cancer.........NO, it's highly unlikely anyone following in wierwille's footsteps will attain and wield with absolute power such an organization as twi.
BUT.........imo, what IS likely.....is that 'these guys' (splinter groups) WILL continue to interject snippets of wierwille's life 'and greatness' to THEIR followers. In this manner, the adulation and idolatry towards wierwille's name will continue into the next generation, and the next? Far outdistancing the 'teachings' and scripture one learned in twi is the MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING wherein people involving people takes center-stage in the activity rather than the simplicity that is in Christ and loving God wholeheartedly.
Therefore......imo, groups likened to twi WILL CONTINUE to fixate on their identity within that group building a mindset of elitism and distancing themselves from the One Body. These groups have adopted twi's 'systematizing of error' and incorporated the same muscle components to 'move' others.........whereas true christian essence is being moved by compassion and thus, one is 'moved by the holy spirit'.....not man.
First and foremost I want to make sure that it is understood that the following is in no way meant to be disrespectful or demeaning. I am trying to make sense of all that has happened since the "Secret Agenda Society".
if you've read schoenheit's adultery paper, you too must wonder why he was fired for writing it,
!...........and yet, the reaction was the firing of the lynn's, and the widespread and meanspirited defamation and disinformation campaign against the others who participated in the letter thing.
Schoxnheit writes a research paper on adultery.........and WALTER SHUFFLES IT AWAY????
What is this with the incessant NEED to be DIFFERENT?
It is not a matter of "being different" as you put it, but protecting the status quo of those that they deemed as "insiders" or those who stood to lose the most if it was ever truly exposed. There is a truism that the world has: "The best kept secret is the one that is never told."But you should already see where this particular truism could never be practiced, in that VPW was committing ADULTERY and teaching that it made you a better minister. In a place like HQ, there are eyes everywhere, and eventually someone would figure it out and they probably did, thus confronting even mildly the Vicster, which neccessitated that he draw them in to his inner circle in order to ensure that the secret be kept. As far as I can tell, this is also how BLACKMAIL rings are developed, someone finds out, they have to be brought into the "scheme" in order to ensure their silence. If you make someone else guilty and cause them to plow in your fields of iniquity, they also risk exposure, thus ultimately ensuring their silence. Hence, Walter shuffling it away, Schoenheit/Lynns being fired, plus all of the others in an attempt to protect the "golden egg."
It seems to me, the more they try to be "different".. the more they stay the same..
It's like.. slowly, one class at a time, one meeting after another, one dedication to the vicster after another.. one program after another, which some are identical in name to one in the old *ministry*.. along with a *loosely* affiliated "survivor" program which will only resurrect the same kind of hierarchy and arrogance in their *loosely affiliated* groups..
aren't they becoming what they abandoned, and detested?
It sort of appears to me these guys are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Not saying they have not made mistakes but do we honestly believe these guys are likened to the infamous Secret Agenda Society. How can anyone teach anything that they may have learned while in TWI without being labeled as a heretic.
The very crux of the fault-line in that ministry was that the Lord Jesus Christ was relegated to just a NAME, that the "followers" merely paid lip service to, without being taught that the LORD is not absent and never has been absent. You can't have a HEAD OF THE CHURCH, and the HEAD be missing, can you? But most of the adherents when first being introduced to that ministry were very young, late teens to early twenties and most probably had very little Bible education at all and so as you can see, the stage was set. Plus, as they say, those of us born in the 1950's and 1960's, it really was the LAST OF THE INNOCENTS. We had been reared to believe that in all respects you were to honor your elders (not realizing that this really came out of the church) no matter what, and hence, VPW had in inroad to all of those young minds devoid of any Godly instruction. Then you add to that, that he had some Biblical training, to what level I do not know. Now add to that his propensity for that particular iniquity and then the subsequent need to twist the Scriptures to make it appear that "to the pure....all things are pure." NOW....who doesn't want to be PURE? So the downward spiral began and as you know from ever watching a vortex, the outer and upper rotations are wide and only as you descend into the vortex does the rotations become more narrow, powerful and catastrophically destructive.
During the last 25+ years I have absorbed information from many bonifide, Bible college educated ministers with degrees and as far as I can tell they are just as inclined to teach according to the party line as any so called offshoot.
I suppose if we just went along with Constantine we would follow the dictate of the Council of Nicaea.
Yes, they do...even if it is error. I have seen the same...and the reason that they do...MONEY! If they don't tow the line, they will not be given any pastorates to tend and thus all of those years wasted studying the bible and now with a very huge student loan tally. So when someone dares to stand up and question it, GET RID OF THAT PERSON, NOW! Why? Because they threaten the flow of nourishment from their god...M-O-N-E-Y! Hope that this is not too harsh for you, this Sunday morning, along with your eggs and bacon. I've been experiencing this in my own personal life, because I stood up against someone's MONEY god.
Some criticize because an organization has a mission statement, others say leaders need to be held accountable so the must be held to biblical standards. So what if the mission statement is derived from biblical standards?
If you are incorporated in the USA, you must have a "mission statement" it is the law. You cannot proceed on to obtain a 501( c)(3) without first being incorporated. Nevertheless, if you are stating that you follow the LIVING LORD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST, then you should be held accountable to those tenets of faith that you proclaim.
If anyone else has what they believe to be the correct teaching please lay it out here so we can dissect it. It may be that I am being naive but I am willing to re-evaluate what I have been taught. I am not willing to chuck it all just because it was once taught by TWI. I consider John S. as I do many of you as a valuable resource. That does not mean I am willing to relegate my understanding of the scriptures to any so called man of God anymore.
There are many groups that have truth, Jeast. To wit, these same groups also have error. The only way to protect yourself against FALSE DOCTRINE, is to remain close to the HEAD OF THE CHURCH, "know" the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and I'm not talking just "head knowledge", but to truly "know" them. If it is truth that is being preached, it absolutely will not transgress against the Scriptures. The only thing that VPW ever taught, imo, that was true, is that the BIBLE WILL NOT CONTRADICT ITSELF. Where these groups have error, imo, is where they are towing the party line as you called it. This is why you should study on your own. Place yourself under the tutelage of the HOLY SPIRIT, learn to hear HIM. It is HE that will lead you into all TRUTH.
Whenever, someone stands up against ERROR, it is a sure bet, that if it threatens the MONEY GOD those people will be hounded, persecuted, thrown out of the church or group etc. Get yourself a copy of Foxx's book of Martyrs and read for yourself. Martin Luther stood up against the status quo and he was defrocked, humiliated, threatened to be burnt at the stake if he didn't recant, had to go into hiding, his name smeared....why? Because he stood up against the "excessive indulgences" that the RC church was exacting from the little people. Basically, charging people to get into heaven, when the LORD JESUS CHRIST made it free to receive salvation.
Is it wrong for someone to get paid for teaching, preaching, researching etc? No doubt there are those who have blatantly abused the charity of believers but does that make anyone whose livelyhood is ministering forbidden.
I am not trying to necessarily defend any certain individual but it is more of an effort to try to work together.
No, it is not wrong to be paid for your time and your expertise in the Scriptures, if that is what THE LORD has called you to. I have also taken some hits from posters who have been out to my web site and said it was wrong for me to have "donate" buttons. It's funny how we do not question the world charging for their services, i.e. if our car needs to be worked on, we simply pay the mechanic for his or hers expertise and we go on our way. But for some reason, when it comes to those that THE LORD has called to feed HIS FLOCK, people moan and groan and spiritually stamp their feet, pout and throw in a $1 into the plate, but then those same people leave church that day and spend exhorbitantly on things that will not profit them at all in the world to come. People automatically place VALUE on something if they have had to PAY for it, hence one can clearly see the VALUE that is placed upon the VERY WORD OF GOD. King David said it best:
1 Chron. 21:24
And King David said to Ornan, Nay; but I will verily buy it for the full price:
For I will not take that which is thine for the LORD,
nor offer burnt offerings without cost.
Here's another oxymoron for you this morning....If a preacher is well learned and steps on people's toes through correction, whether personal or just through a sermon...they instantaneously become "too intellectual and not led by the HOLY SPIRIT," and then those same flame throwers DEMAND that their minister be highly educated. As the LORD JESUS declares, lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust will not destroy them.
....1) Why is adultery listed FIRST in the works of the flesh [Gal. 5:19-21]..??
....2) If wierwille was rooted in DECEIVING OTHERS AND HIMSELF (via this adultery 'doctrine' -- that some trace back to his van wert days)........was the corps program established with altruistic motives?....or was it fabricated in an intoxicating stupor to better 'serve his predation?'
....3) How could wierwille NOT see the long-term effects on these corps/staff/wow girls??......not being able to comprehend the long-range ramifications on these girls who would someday become mothers, and mothers would become grandmothers, and grandmothers would become great-grandmothers??
....4) And, even in the *sunset years* of his reign.........NO REPENTANCE, but rather mentoring and encouraging martindale (and others??) to follow wierwille's (tupos) adultery pattern??.....[Matt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornication, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.]
....5) And, ge-er wanted to 'clean up twi'......yet, he sets the stage to VIGOROUSLY AVOID THIS TOXIC AGENDA THAT WIERWILLE UPHELD FOR DECADES??
Yeah ...
So what was "the secret agenda"?
It does not seem quite clear whether adultery crept in and was allowed and then it overran the conscience of so many and became doctrine ... or was "free love" a motivator from the beginning?
Or was the love of money the root of all evil ... there was plenty of that kind of greed floating around as well. NOTHING was kept on the field, it ALL went to Wierwille Owens Wierwille.
Considering vp's problems with his previous church, it seems likely sex and money were on his mind from the start. And of course power. But it is less clear if there was a "society" that shared that as an agenda ... or if for most it was more of a "perk", which morphed into a divisive, secret inner circle of players.
It's like.. slowly, one class at a time, one meeting after another, one dedication to the vicster after another.. one program after another, which some are identical in name to one in the old *ministry*..
along with a *loosely* affiliated "survivor" program which will only resurrect the same kind of hierarchy and arrogance in their *loosely affiliated* groups..
aren't they becoming what they abandoned, and detested?
It sort of appears to me these guys are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Not saying they have not made mistakes but do we honestly believe these guys are likened to the infamous Secret Agenda Society.
How can anyone teach anything that they may have learned while in TWI without being labeled as a heretic.
I really don't know.
I think that is a testimony to the tainted, plagiarized "inheritance" der "manogawd" left us.
I believe the offshoots have not outgrown the incessant urgent "need" to be "different" from the rest of the body of Christ.. and it's like a drug addiction. They had the taste of a shortcut to being supposedly unique and "special" in the old ministry.. and they would do practically anything to get that feeling back again.
I don't think it's about the bible as much as they would like to believe. I see the same feeling of superiority other groups offer, like the guys who claim the holocaust never occured, that they have some unique version of history which is the "greatest secret" since before WWI..
then there's the sellers of Kaballah.. "you too can know the secrets of the universe.."
and the J.W.'s held to the "unique" position of being the 144,000 that would "make it"..
What do they REALLY offer? I'm not being sarcastic as such..
it just seems to me that offshoots range from a "harmless" diversion, to manipulative, subversive, to abusive, to destructive.
I can't think of single one where one can just be a "normal" human being.. without super powers one can summon up upon command..
"You can be a scientist, a lawyer, husband, father, etc., but REMEMBER.. you're NOT a such and such that is a *Christian* (i.e. church "member").. you are a CHRISTIAN (church member) who happens to be one of these.."
Yep.. you've got super-human powers.. the "manogawd" said so. Better get "witnessing"..
the last "teaching" I heard in one offshoot.. it was about how the liberals just don't control their minds like *we* do.. how spiritually "compromised" they were.. and all of those in the room had their heads bobbing up and down in agreement. Oh the pride.. that *we* happen to be those *privileged* to be *right*..
I almost felt like asking when they were gonna pass the Pepto Bismol..
the last "teaching" I heard in one offshoot.. it was about how the liberals just don't control their minds like *we* do.. how spiritually "compromised" they were.. and all of those in the room had their heads bobbing up and down in agreement. Oh the pride.. that *we* happen to be those *privileged* to be *right*..
Ham, not just twi and it's offshoots buy into the liberals are spiritually compromised doctrine, practically every large southern church does too.
Visit any baptist based web board and its sickening how they put down anyone who doesn't walk lockstep after the company line. Heap onto that pile how non trinitarians, LDS, JW's, unwed mothers, and gays are viewed, or anyone who partakes in tattoos, smoking, drinking, unusual haircuts, ad infinitum, the list goes on and on..
Considering that Jesus, who was a radical in his own times, actually talked to and helped prostitutes, Samaritans, the possessed, and lepers, which really got people's dander up when he'd do that, I wonder if these types of aforementioned Christians would actually let him join their congregations?
Globally what we see with radical Islamist seperatists is frightening, Catholics and Protestants in Ireland have been warring against each other for centuries, high cast vs low cast Hindu's in India, the list goes on..
People like to belong to groups, maybe some sort of innate social herd mentality, but where religion is concerned, its a trademark across the planet to be exclusionary, IMO, that's why the Jesus Movement in the 60's was so radically different.
Considering vp's problems with his previous church, it seems likely sex and money were on his mind from the start. And of course power. But it is less clear if there was a "society" that shared that as an agenda ... or if for most it was more of a "perk", which morphed into a divisive, secret inner circle of players.
I think ole veepee was the ringmaster, he insulated himself by bringing in others into his secret world, maybe that was a calculated move. Harder for anyone to depose him, disgrace him, take the ministry away from him, fire him, out him, or call him into question when everyone at the top does it and is in on it, including his trustees...It was the 60's, so it probably wasn't a far stretch for some to go to the free love mentality, although I believe it was pure lust and selfish sexual gratification for wierwille. To my knowledge vpee was the only one who drugged nonconsenting women/girls, how many others were raping women, I don't know. I believe there's a record in L Recio's book about a gang rape at Emporia, I haven't read it myself though, maybe someone here who has can contribute more facts, I have read here about one LC raping someone when he spent the night at their house. There are many accounts of sexual assaults outside of rape that have been reported here.
Twi was probably fertile ground for abuse for those with predispositions to be abusers since the head honchos condoned as principle that any woman is yours if you want her. IMO, the ones who were as culpable as veepee were the pimps for him and martindale, R*amona, DM, the many bus drivers, et al, they used people as merchandise for sexual purposes.
Too bad no one ever was able to successfully press criminal charges.
.. and all of those in the room had their heads bobbing up and down in agreement. Oh the pride.. that *we* happen to be those *privileged* to be *right*..
...........snip.................
ok, I don't know what group this was, or what they were called.
But maybe they should call themselves: "The First Church On The Right"
If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
1Cor 12:16
And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
1Cor 12:26
If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
1Cor 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part
Are they not part of the same body?
"The only way to protect yourself against FALSE DOCTRINE, is to remain close to the HEAD OF THE CHURCH, "know" the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and I'm not talking just "head knowledge", but to truly "know" them"
Well said. But rather than living according to the law and commandments it is my understanding that I am trying to live by this...Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart soul mind and strength and love thy neighbor as thyself.
I hope to never lose sight of what we have been delivered from because the more I comprehend God's mercy and grace and love the more thankful I am. I strive never to bring reproach on the Body of Christ. To me this goes way beyond the 10 commandments.
It is not a matter of "being different" as you put it, but protecting the status quo of those that they deemed as "insiders" or those who stood to lose the most if it was ever truly exposed. There is a truism that the world has: "The best kept secret is the one that is never told."But you should already see where this particular truism could never be practiced, in that VPW was committing ADULTERY and teaching that it made you a better minister. In a place like HQ, there are eyes everywhere, and eventually someone would figure it out and they probably did, thus confronting even mildly the Vicster, which neccessitated that he draw them in to his inner circle in order to ensure that the secret be kept. As far as I can tell, this is also how BLACKMAIL rings are developed, someone finds out, they have to be brought into the "scheme" in order to ensure their silence. If you make someone else guilty and cause them to plow in your fields of iniquity, they also risk exposure, thus ultimately ensuring their silence.
Yeah.......imo, it seems that this blackmail/bribery issue is interlaced with adultery and the inner circle of twi. The complexities of it all.......and how it was 'silenced' for so long.......gives strong evidence that all those 'in and around the motorcoach' were culpable in a secret world of sin.
(((Ex))) I wish that I could kick thier sorry hateful arses for you :(
Thank you for telling. Thank you for having the courage to share of the manipulation through your hopes, the promises of healing, of the betrayal of your trust. Girl you are one of the bravest ladies I know.
Don`t you know that most of us understand?? That most of us know how we would have reacted in that situation?? That we understand obediance to the mog, the desire to pleasing to God, the yearning for healing and peace?? You were the first to stand up around here and try to tell folks that wierwille wasn`t the saint we all believed. I don`t think that you should be apologizing to anybody.
I don`t understand, but I sure think the world of you anyway, and wish that these hateful sob`s could be punished. Not that this would help erase the residual pain that you and others cope with.
It makes me angry beyond all reason that these people did this inflicted this suffering in the name of God.
I hope that there is indeed a God and that someday these people will answere for what they have done. That we will finally know the peace that we sought ....
Damn (((Ex)) he couldn`t counter the truth or heart that you were sharing so he had to manufacture a reason for her to not listen. He had to make you look like the one screwed up.
Weren`t they masters at that? They were so good that they made us believe it about ourselves.
I believe that what you did, when you did it....was out of a desire to help....not to take.
I don`t think that you should doubt yourself or the value of what you share.
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Ham
I think some of those guys who took the bait.. vic STILL owns them, even from the grave..
DontWorryBeHappy
hello fellow greasespotters!............oh yeah, it was "BIG" alright!..................and yet, as big as it was, it was only the most obvious "tip of the iceberg" of the endemic and profound doctrin
DontWorryBeHappy
why should the "leaders" of twi splinters/offshoots be held accountable for their continued adherence to the teachings of vic?............because until they remove the presence of vic from their consc
penworks
I can help with a few of timeline items mentioned in this post, since I was at HQ:
April 23, 1986 - PoP read at Corps night (about 2 and 1/2 hrs.) in WOW Auditorium at HQ and off-site Corps on the field via dial-in phone-hook-ups
Oct. 23, 1986 - John S. fired at HQ
Nov 1986 - Clergy meeting at HQ
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doojable
I heard PoP read during a Corps week, not a phone hook up. I wasn't in-rez. ChR1s G33r said, "I can't believe I'm reading this AGAIN."
That RoA was ... interesting.
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rhino
Thanks Penworks ...
so JohnS was fired even before that last clergy meeting, for daring to research adultery ... good grief ...
right Dooj ... I heard rumblings before, but didn't hear PoP till corpse weak ...
and on spiders ...
God Bless ...I love you ... You're the best ...
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now I see
And sometime within those 2 events it was announced that there would be an abstinence from any new research from the Research Dept.
I remember listening to a Corps night hookup or a tape where Walter mimicked the statement, at the time I remember wondering why, and not being able to put my finger on it.
The ruling of course, came down from C Geer, because of the Schonheit paper....
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skyrider
And, the QUESTIONS keep on coming......
....1) Why is adultery listed FIRST in the works of the flesh [Gal. 5:19-21]..??
....2) If wierwille was rooted in DECEIVING OTHERS AND HIMSELF (via this adultery 'doctrine' -- that some trace back to his van wert days)........was the corps program established with altruistic motives?....or was it fabricated in an intoxicating stupor to better 'serve his predation?'
....3) How could wierwille NOT see the long-term effects on these corps/staff/wow girls??......not being able to comprehend the long-range ramifications on these girls who would someday become mothers, and mothers would become grandmothers, and grandmothers would become great-grandmothers??
....4) And, even in the *sunset years* of his reign.........NO REPENTANCE, but rather mentoring and encouraging martindale (and others??) to follow wierwille's (tupos) adultery pattern??.....[Matt 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornication, thefts, false witness, blasphemies.]
....5) And, ge-er wanted to 'clean up twi'......yet, he sets the stage to VIGOROUSLY AVOID THIS TOXIC AGENDA THAT WIERWILLE UPHELD FOR DECADES??
Okay......that's enough questions for now. <_<
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pawtucket
Greasespot cafe -- 2000
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jeast
First and foremost I want to make sure that it is understood that the following is in no way meant to be disrespectful or demeaning. I am trying to make sense of all that has happened since the "Secret Agenda Society".
if you've read schoenheit's adultery paper, you too must wonder why he was fired for writing it,
!...........and yet, the reaction was the firing of the lynn's, and the widespread and meanspirited defamation and disinformation campaign against the others who participated in the letter thing.
Schoxnheit writes a research paper on adultery.........and WALTER SHUFFLES IT AWAY????
What is this with the incessant NEED to be DIFFERENT?
It seems to me, the more they try to be "different".. the more they stay the same..
It's like.. slowly, one class at a time, one meeting after another, one dedication to the vicster after another.. one program after another, which some are identical in name to one in the old *ministry*..
along with a *loosely* affiliated "survivor" program which will only resurrect the same kind of hierarchy and arrogance in their *loosely affiliated* groups..
aren't they becoming what they abandoned, and detested?
It sort of appears to me these guys are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Not saying they have not made mistakes but do we honestly believe these guys are likened to the infamous Secret Agenda Society.
How can anyone teach anything that they may have learned while in TWI without being labeled as a heretic.
During the last 25+ years I have absorbed information from many bonifide, Bible college educated ministers with degrees and as far as I can tell they are just as inclined to teach according to the party line as any so called offshoot.
I suppose if we just went along with Constantine we would follow the dictate of the Council of Nicaea.
Some criticize because an organization has a mission statement, others say leaders need to be held accountable so the must be held to biblical standards. So what if the mission statement is derived from biblical standards?
If anyone else has what they believe to be the correct teaching please lay it out here so we can dissect it. It may be that I am being naive but I am willing to re-evaluate what I have been taught. I am not willing to chuck it all just because it was once taught by TWI. I consider John S. as I do many of you as a valuable resource. That does not mean I am willing to relegate my understanding of the scriptures to any so called man of God anymore.
Is it wrong for someone to get paid for teaching, preaching, researching etc? No doubt there are those who have blatantly abused the charity of believers but does that make anyone whose livelyhood is ministering forbidden.
I am not trying to necessarily defend any certain individual but it is more of an effort to try to work together.
Respectfully,
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skyrider
jeast........imo, I don't necessarily liken 'these guys (splinter groups) to the infamous Secret Agenda Society.' What wierwille spearheaded in twi took decades to devise and deceive.......from carjacking BG Leonard's class to wholesale plagiarism, from adultery to suicide victims, from conspiracy theories to paranoia, from stage persona to inner circle secrets, from 'the law of believing' to 'the absent christ', from small camper to motorcoach, from teaching 'cancer is a devil spirit' to dying of cancer.........NO, it's highly unlikely anyone following in wierwille's footsteps will attain and wield with absolute power such an organization as twi.
BUT.........imo, what IS likely.....is that 'these guys' (splinter groups) WILL continue to interject snippets of wierwille's life 'and greatness' to THEIR followers. In this manner, the adulation and idolatry towards wierwille's name will continue into the next generation, and the next? Far outdistancing the 'teachings' and scripture one learned in twi is the MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING wherein people involving people takes center-stage in the activity rather than the simplicity that is in Christ and loving God wholeheartedly.
Therefore......imo, groups likened to twi WILL CONTINUE to fixate on their identity within that group building a mindset of elitism and distancing themselves from the One Body. These groups have adopted twi's 'systematizing of error' and incorporated the same muscle components to 'move' others.........whereas true christian essence is being moved by compassion and thus, one is 'moved by the holy spirit'.....not man.
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brideofjc
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rhino
Yeah ...
So what was "the secret agenda"?
It does not seem quite clear whether adultery crept in and was allowed and then it overran the conscience of so many and became doctrine ... or was "free love" a motivator from the beginning?
Or was the love of money the root of all evil ... there was plenty of that kind of greed floating around as well. NOTHING was kept on the field, it ALL went to Wierwille Owens Wierwille.
Considering vp's problems with his previous church, it seems likely sex and money were on his mind from the start. And of course power. But it is less clear if there was a "society" that shared that as an agenda ... or if for most it was more of a "perk", which morphed into a divisive, secret inner circle of players.
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Ham
I really don't know.
I think that is a testimony to the tainted, plagiarized "inheritance" der "manogawd" left us.
I believe the offshoots have not outgrown the incessant urgent "need" to be "different" from the rest of the body of Christ.. and it's like a drug addiction. They had the taste of a shortcut to being supposedly unique and "special" in the old ministry.. and they would do practically anything to get that feeling back again.
I don't think it's about the bible as much as they would like to believe. I see the same feeling of superiority other groups offer, like the guys who claim the holocaust never occured, that they have some unique version of history which is the "greatest secret" since before WWI..
then there's the sellers of Kaballah.. "you too can know the secrets of the universe.."
and the J.W.'s held to the "unique" position of being the 144,000 that would "make it"..
What do they REALLY offer? I'm not being sarcastic as such..
it just seems to me that offshoots range from a "harmless" diversion, to manipulative, subversive, to abusive, to destructive.
I can't think of single one where one can just be a "normal" human being.. without super powers one can summon up upon command..
"You can be a scientist, a lawyer, husband, father, etc., but REMEMBER.. you're NOT a such and such that is a *Christian* (i.e. church "member").. you are a CHRISTIAN (church member) who happens to be one of these.."
Yep.. you've got super-human powers.. the "manogawd" said so. Better get "witnessing"..
the last "teaching" I heard in one offshoot.. it was about how the liberals just don't control their minds like *we* do.. how spiritually "compromised" they were.. and all of those in the room had their heads bobbing up and down in agreement. Oh the pride.. that *we* happen to be those *privileged* to be *right*..
I almost felt like asking when they were gonna pass the Pepto Bismol..
:)
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now I see
Visit any baptist based web board and its sickening how they put down anyone who doesn't walk lockstep after the company line. Heap onto that pile how non trinitarians, LDS, JW's, unwed mothers, and gays are viewed, or anyone who partakes in tattoos, smoking, drinking, unusual haircuts, ad infinitum, the list goes on and on..
Considering that Jesus, who was a radical in his own times, actually talked to and helped prostitutes, Samaritans, the possessed, and lepers, which really got people's dander up when he'd do that, I wonder if these types of aforementioned Christians would actually let him join their congregations?
Globally what we see with radical Islamist seperatists is frightening, Catholics and Protestants in Ireland have been warring against each other for centuries, high cast vs low cast Hindu's in India, the list goes on..
People like to belong to groups, maybe some sort of innate social herd mentality, but where religion is concerned, its a trademark across the planet to be exclusionary, IMO, that's why the Jesus Movement in the 60's was so radically different.
I think ole veepee was the ringmaster, he insulated himself by bringing in others into his secret world, maybe that was a calculated move. Harder for anyone to depose him, disgrace him, take the ministry away from him, fire him, out him, or call him into question when everyone at the top does it and is in on it, including his trustees...It was the 60's, so it probably wasn't a far stretch for some to go to the free love mentality, although I believe it was pure lust and selfish sexual gratification for wierwille. To my knowledge vpee was the only one who drugged nonconsenting women/girls, how many others were raping women, I don't know. I believe there's a record in L Recio's book about a gang rape at Emporia, I haven't read it myself though, maybe someone here who has can contribute more facts, I have read here about one LC raping someone when he spent the night at their house. There are many accounts of sexual assaults outside of rape that have been reported here.
Twi was probably fertile ground for abuse for those with predispositions to be abusers since the head honchos condoned as principle that any woman is yours if you want her. IMO, the ones who were as culpable as veepee were the pimps for him and martindale, R*amona, DM, the many bus drivers, et al, they used people as merchandise for sexual purposes.
Too bad no one ever was able to successfully press criminal charges.
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wing
ok, I don't know what group this was, or what they were called.
But maybe they should call themselves: "The First Church On The Right"
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jeast
1Cor 12:15
If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
1Cor 12:16
And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
1Cor 12:26
If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
1Cor 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part
Are they not part of the same body?
"The only way to protect yourself against FALSE DOCTRINE, is to remain close to the HEAD OF THE CHURCH, "know" the TEN COMMANDMENTS, and I'm not talking just "head knowledge", but to truly "know" them"
Well said. But rather than living according to the law and commandments it is my understanding that I am trying to live by this...Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart soul mind and strength and love thy neighbor as thyself.
I hope to never lose sight of what we have been delivered from because the more I comprehend God's mercy and grace and love the more thankful I am. I strive never to bring reproach on the Body of Christ. To me this goes way beyond the 10 commandments.
Good stuff, thanks
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Twinky
Okay, I'm putting this on the other thread about All the Women in the Kingdom.
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skyrider
brideofjc said:
Yeah.......imo, it seems that this blackmail/bribery issue is interlaced with adultery and the inner circle of twi. The complexities of it all.......and how it was 'silenced' for so long.......gives strong evidence that all those 'in and around the motorcoach' were culpable in a secret world of sin.
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excathedra
disclaimer : have not read thread
i think i might have been a member of the secret agenda society
please not to excuse myself but i fought against spiritual idea of sexual healing BUT i also tried to explain it away !!!!!!
the reason i would have compassion toward some people maybe in it
is because of my own case with much confusion and lack of boundaries due to past
if this doesn't make sense, i'm sorry
--
ps. i'm 51 now and i would kick their ever-perverted a s s es
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waysider
Excie
You were NOT a member of The Secret Agenda Society.
You were like the teller who was present when the bank was held up.
You were there but certainly not part of the hold up gang.
PS----It makes PERFECT sense. You are NOT the one who should be saying you are sorry.
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excathedra
thanks love you
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rascal
(((Ex))) I wish that I could kick thier sorry hateful arses for you :(
Thank you for telling. Thank you for having the courage to share of the manipulation through your hopes, the promises of healing, of the betrayal of your trust. Girl you are one of the bravest ladies I know.
Don`t you know that most of us understand?? That most of us know how we would have reacted in that situation?? That we understand obediance to the mog, the desire to pleasing to God, the yearning for healing and peace?? You were the first to stand up around here and try to tell folks that wierwille wasn`t the saint we all believed. I don`t think that you should be apologizing to anybody.
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excathedra
but i am sorry beyond speaking because i did try to explain it to someone once
can my heart ever break anymore ?
maybe
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rascal
I don`t understand, but I sure think the world of you anyway, and wish that these hateful sob`s could be punished. Not that this would help erase the residual pain that you and others cope with.
It makes me angry beyond all reason that these people did this inflicted this suffering in the name of God.
I hope that there is indeed a God and that someday these people will answere for what they have done. That we will finally know the peace that we sought ....
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excathedra
there was a lovely girl, a friend of mine
craig went to visit her on her interim year and she gave him BJs and talked to donna on the phone while she was doing this
she told me about it
and i can't remember what i told her (honest) but i think i tried to rationalize or help her with this
a few years later i tried to speak more honestly with her (i was still f'd up)
but then he (craig) told her she couldn't hang out with me or be trusted because there was something wrong with me
it's a long sad story
but you get the gist maybe
i don't know
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rascal
Damn (((Ex)) he couldn`t counter the truth or heart that you were sharing so he had to manufacture a reason for her to not listen. He had to make you look like the one screwed up.
Weren`t they masters at that? They were so good that they made us believe it about ourselves.
I believe that what you did, when you did it....was out of a desire to help....not to take.
I don`t think that you should doubt yourself or the value of what you share.
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