One day we will look back on all this and laugh about it...how silly we all were, to get sucked in. Till then, there is still a lot of pain and heartache to be eased.
What a great follow-up to RD's interview it would be if Paw could get an interview with John Sch-heit.
Okay, I listened to RD's interview of 'Through the Fog' a second time.
And, it BEGS the question......If adultery was so *godly* why wasn't it OPENLY taught?
Wierwille taught this stuff to who?????......THE SECRET AGENDA SOCIETY.
So, Wierwille teaches this, supposed, godly impact of adultery to a select few.........martindale, for sure. How about geeer and townsxnd? Heck, I went through the corps indoctrination program, but NEVER heard this *secret agenda* that seemed to be reserved for the (cough, cough) 'spiritually mature.'
Schoxnheit writes a research paper on adultery.........and WALTER SHUFFLES IT AWAY????
And, Ge-er mandates that any one who reads it will be fired, labeled pozzezzed and sent packing????
Others nod their head in agreement.......?????
Was 'THE YAK TWIG' assembled to protect wierwille and his secret agendas?? It seems like RD was the only one who took a stand AGAINST ADULTERY........and was sent packing, because of it.
My God.......here twi was this, supposedly, incredible RESEARCH ministry....and couldn't even get the straight answer on adultery being WRONG. And, of course it was 'spiritualized' as to be read as 'spiritual adultery'.............nice cover-up for the sinners and their sins. THE DOTS CONNECT BACK TO WIERWILLE.
Heck, it seems to me like Ge-er's 'Passing of the Patriarch' paper was an attempt to gloss-over the deeply wounded in twi.......and pin the blame on the then-current trustees. Seems like that whole paper drips with idolatrous attempts to appease 'a godly direction'.........and uphold his idol, wierwille.
Re-visiting this stuff some 20 years later...........now, from a better vantage point.
Un-freaken-believable.....!!!
You nailed it! A Secret Agenda Society indeed! Their real priority became obvious when you see the mandated response to Schoxnheit's paper – that hit 'em where it hurts!...Yeah, I gotcha greatest secret in the world today right here – vp gave the green light on adultery.
Great thread Sky-Hit the nail (or mog) right in the head.
Where are all the VP defenders?
Guess they can't say anything now they been shown where the guy was coming from.
Another problem arose from their lust and greed that they never counted on. I know of several leaders from limb leaders on down who got wind of the "secret mog sex games" and went at it with anyone they could get their hands on.
Ruined a lot of people's lives.
I still say they should be hung.
The whole lot should be put in jail.
And where were the wives? They knew what their men were doing, counseling woman at late hours of the night one on one.
If they had any guts they would have left these bozos.
These supposed leaders were always counseling women one on one contrary to what they were teaching. Hypocrites.
Oh, they'll be back. Once that "never even consider" junk in session #7 takes hold, it's there to stay for a long, long time.
snip
And where were the wives?
Well, I can't tell you about the wives but I had a single gal come on to me in a really, really strong way, knowing full well that I was married. That was in about 1993. I never mentioned it to my wife because I had absolutely no interest in this lady and figured it best not to even raise the issue. I didn't realize at the time that it was anything beyond this one person's actions.
But maybe you are right Ham, once part of the adultery club, they were much more committed to the wrong doctrine and the secrecy. At that point, they would not only be confronting vp, but confronting their own actions. They were their own separate cult within the cult ... the inner sanctum, behind the big curtain ...
Whatever one calls it.......The Secret Agenda Society, the adultery club, the inner sanctum, the spiritually mature machos, or the wierwille wannabes.......it has the stench of 'seductive bribery' on it.
How 'spiritually mature' does one have to get.......to join?
Why didn't wierwille teach Adultery Bedside Manners to the corps? All the corps? Wasn't the corps 'training' supposed to equip us with spiritual truths? Yet, I never was taught on the benefits of adultery during my corps training.
How about teaching all the clergy THIS...?? Nope......once again, even as twi clergy, I WAS NOT TAUGHT THIS.
And furthermore..........THIS ADULTERY STUFF should have been handled in any respectable 'Christian Family and Sex' class.
And why not write A SERIES OF ARTICLES ON ADULTERY in the way mag?.......rather than the regurgitating of 'blue book law of believing' stuff infinitum?
Seems like 'the sin of adultery' has been given THE SILENT TREATMENT.......for a long, long time.
The newest family class taught by the "enthusiastic" (Sarcasm here) Coulters actually taught that adultury was wrong--and also that bestiality is wrong too... :o
That class was released in 200 or 2005---I can't remember which and don't care to strain my brain right now trying to remember.
why should the "leaders" of twi splinters/offshoots be held accountable for their continued adherence to the teachings of vic?............because until they remove the presence of vic from their consciousness of god, and vic's "understanding" of the word "as it has not been known since the first cfentury" is no longer the theological foundation for their "biblical researvch" and teaching, regardless of how many errors they claim to have corrected, they willfully perpetuate the "ministry" and teachings of their "father in the word"...........and, in so doing, they perpetuate the hurt to and abuse of far too many members in particular of the body of christ!...........
these various "christian leaders" tout their non-denominationalism in order to cover the anti-denominationalism they inherited from their "father-in-the-word"..........they've also adopted his anti-intellectualism and pride when it comes to their professed ability to "accurately" research, study, teach and "manifest" "god's word" better than your church can or does.......they need to stay close to the doctrines and practices that have "earned them a living" through these years of distancing themselves from the "sins" of vic without cutting off the financial benefits of supplying vic's hapless former followers with enough of his old , watered down teaching to keep 'em "inspired" to give!..........after all, who ordained these guys?.......how many have gone on to legitimate, fully accredited and recognized seminaries to acquire professional, christian training in order to effectively and honestly minister to god's people??.............until they do, their "ministries" are destined to repeat the mistakes and patterns of spiritual abuse programmed into the false doctrines vic drilled into their collective consciousness!...........after all, these guys all started out "helping" twi refugees in the late 1980's and through the 90's , as the doofus from okie was busy purging twi of all debbil spurts along with any normal human beings still functioning behind the walls of zion in his bizzarro world of the "present truth"!................lots of them had a quick answer for the twi refugees who wanted to know where they should send their "abundant sharing", did'nt they??..............several enjoyed the "miracle" of the believers or a believer buying them a house, or building them a church............what were these believers believing back then???.................pfal etc.?...............oh yeah..............can't kill that "cash cow", so we'll raise our own, and of course, we'll get people's believing up by charging for it.......and we'll have meetings, and home fellowhips, and classes, and bible land tours, and lots of events to keep everybody busy "moving the word", and we'll write books , and we won't make mistakes with god's people, and we will continue to rightly divide the word until christ comes back, and..............and...................
here's a quote from a letter from john lynn, one of the signers of that 37 page letter that caused such a stir 21 years ago................this quote is from a letter posted at the cesonline site, and recently linked to by a poster on the "who are these people" thread..........it's very interesting to compare this letter, revised in september, 2007, with the letter from john posted on the same site dated march, 1988.............here's the quote from the september, 2007 letter:
"In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille (TWI Founder) would be very proud of what we are doing. We have taken the keys to the Word's interpretation that he taught us and used them to evaluate his own teachings, correcting those that did not agree with Scripture. We have never lost sight of the goal of moving the Word around the world. If that is still your goal, or if you think there is any way we could be of service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us."
so, john honestly believes vic would be "proud" of what he, schoenheit and graeser have done and are doing, eh?..........what in the hell does that mean???is that some kind of feather in your ministry's cap?...............more like a scarlet letter, imho!..............but, at least he's giving credit where credit is due!..........which is more than i can say for cff, and many other offshoots who spend a lot of time and effort covering up the wierwille roots of their existence and belief systems!
imho, that's why greasespot is here! at least there's one place in this information culture where you can get the real story about vic and his progeny, without the twists and turns, or rationalizations necessary to promote your own "secret agenda"!...........the reality brew is the best cup o' joe available in cyberspace if you wanna get the other side of the story about twi and vic's pack of mini-cults busily moving his word over the world.................i wonder if vic would be proud of those of us who "waste our time" posting here?......i think jesus christ might be...............................peace.
Thanks DontWorry for touching on the reasons you all penned the 37 page doc that way, it makes sense now, your job was restoration.
..but did they think they could "hide" from god???..................the answer to that is either "yes", or, they themselves were firmly convinced that indeed, their personal perversions were "godly", and proof of their immense "spiritual maturity" as well as proof that their "precious lives" were a "gift to god's people"!!..............as incredible as it seems, the latter was true then, and still is today for rosie, martindale, and everyone else who accepts vic as a "man'o'gawd"!
I don’t know DontWorry, I’m having a hard time with this one, how could they not know it was wrong? Craig had been a Baptist, he knew better, were all the wives on board with this practice also, surely some objected? A Greasespot poster had posted on an old thread that someone in this inner circle stated something to the effect, “you don’t really still believe this bible stuff do you?” It seems from the Yak twig reactions they didn’t really either, they had gotten away with it for so long, why should they fear God?
if these "leaders" break those commitments, they are responsible to god to repent, and then ask god for forgiveness, as well as reconcile with the believer(s) that were injured or offended...............none of this was ever considered by twi "leaders" let alone attempted! ….
… back then, twi was able to control the "spin"........there was no internet, there was no "organized" alternative "ministry"............it's also why there are still a large number of folks in twi and its splinters/offshoots, who owe a large number of believers at least an honest attempt at reconciling these issues, imho............it's also why they'll never get one!
You’re right everything ultimately comes down to our individual relationship with God. They all were very good about leaving us hanging, almost nothing about the problems within TWI were explained, therefore no reconciliation was needed in their minds I suppose. Those they got rid of were given the bum’s rush, slandered and forgotten, those leaders wanted no reconciliation anyway. Those in the offshoots offered no answers or explanations either….and exhibited no guilt, even if they had formerly ACTIVELY participated in the demise of their brothers and sisters in the twi years..
so, john honestly believes vic would be "proud" of what he, schoenheit and graeser have done and are doing, eh?..........what in the hell does that mean???
He's definitely drinking the Kool-Aid again, maybe drinking his own Kool-Aid. :blink:
regardless of how many errors they claim to have corrected, they willfully perpetuate the "ministry" and teachings of their "father in the word"...........and, in so doing, they perpetuate the hurt to and abuse of far too many members in particular of the body of christ!...........
That's too difficult for them, they would have to get honest about the whole situation, past and present, relinquesh any authoritative power that they weild over their believers, and perhaps do a self check on the heirarchal system they still subscribe to. It would rock their world. Perhaps there would be another exodus, people would leave!
You know what I think they did when they left twi, they employed the magic wand, and simply made all the bad stuff dissapear...or maybe it was the Jedi mind trick.
The act of leaving TWI was their opportunity to declare themselves as a brand new thing, anything from the twi years that required greater scruitiny were all covered up, and became null and void.
I just thought it was an isolated incident at the time.
That was their biggest cover at the time... without the kind of communication available today (cell phones, internet) most of us only knew what happened in our particular areas, even if we did have friends all over the country. We were taught not to speak ill of our fellow believers so hardly any of us realized that this was going on all over the place!! If we had known, many of us would have left long before we did.
so, john honestly believes vic would be "proud" of what he, schoenheit and graeser have done and are doing, eh?..........what in the hell does that mean???is that some kind of feather in your ministry's cap?...............more like a scarlet letter, imho!..............but, at least he's giving credit where credit is due!..........which is more than i can say for cff, and many other offshoots who spend a lot of time and effort covering up the wierwille roots of their existence and belief systems!
The old "vic would be so proud.." claim,
wouldn't that make as much sense as upon opening a soup kitchen for the poor, the workers there would assemble and proclaim "and Doctor Capone would be so proud of our efforts, seeing his legacy continue to live in the third and fourth generation.."
You bring up a good point though. What actually IS it that they think they are *doing* that ole vic would be proud of?
Wallowing and getting caught up in the momentus debacle, and the resulting egotism, arrogance and power struggles?
Subscribing to every lunatic fringe belief they could find, in search for something "unique" to offer their flock?
What about the personal prophecy fiasco, and resulting "sue me, sue you blues"?
Hmm. Maybe that's what the "non-denominational" claim is about.. trying to bury their old association. But it isn't exactly honest, is it? I mean.. they draw material from the old ministry, sing the same songs.. play the same music, have practically identical "worship" services along with a certain number of tongues with interpretation and "prophecy", which in all likelihood, would sound remarkably similar or even identical to what one would hear in a modern vey "household" meeting.. plus they have "power of gawd" classes, in which one can EASILY see the material from old vic's classes carefully grafted in.. the old ministry may be an unwilling partner in "the church".. but isn't it obvious that the way IS their denomination?
Plus, every "denominational affiliate" just HAS to have a shrine of sorts dedicated to der "manogawd" who taught us "der verd"..
CES practically puts it on the front page of their internet site. Or at least one can observe it isn't hard to be found.
I'll ask I guess.. what about cff? I'd imagine they have a shrine somewhere on grounds dedicated to the vicster..
When they started fishing around for something as "harmless" as a "mission statement", to define how they are different than the rest of the world, I could see trouble coming.. along with statements like "well, the PURPOSE of our meetings isn't to socialize, have fun.. a person can find THAT out in the WORLD.. we're here to LEARN the WORD.."
As far as having a mission statement- why bind one's own hands, or God's, to begin with? "THIS is what we do.."
What is this with the incessant NEED to be DIFFERENT?
It seems to me, the more they try to be "different".. the more they stay the same..
It's like.. slowly, one class at a time, one meeting after another, one dedication to the vicster after another.. one program after another, which some are identical in name to one in the old *ministry*..
along with a *loosely* affiliated "survivor" program which will only resurrect the same kind of hierarchy and arrogance in their *loosely affiliated* groups..
aren't they becoming what they abandoned, and detested?
You nailed it! A Secret Agenda Society indeed! Their real priority became obvious when you see the mandated response to Schoxnheit's paper – that hit 'em where it hurts!...Yeah, I gotcha greatest secret in the world today right here – vp gave the green light on adultery.
Yeah, with vic's 'go ahead'.......martindale admits that he's 'done this hundreds of times and its 'administered godly profit' to these girls. [isn't that what the podcast stated.....of lcm's admissions?]
And, Ge-er was SO ADAMANT in shutting down schoenhext's adultery paper.....makes for LOTS of speculation. Also, with Walter's response.........and later, walter goes on to 'join the geerite movement' with his research skills.....when he can't see A COMPARABLE SIXTH-GRADE UNDERSTANDING OF ADULTERY.
Yeah, with vic's 'go ahead'.......martindale admits that he's 'done this hundreds of times and its 'administered godly profit' to these girls. [isn't that what the podcast stated.....of lcm's admissions?]
And, Ge-er was SO ADAMANT in shutting down schoenhext's adultery paper.....makes for LOTS of speculation. Also, with Walter's response.........and later, walter goes on to 'join the geerite movement' with his research skills.....when he can't see A COMPARABLE SIXTH-GRADE UNDERSTANDING OF ADULTERY.
It does sorta clarify what a hold VP held over these men, and still holds over some even after his death. Why would they possibly want to make the likes of molester vic proud?
I just was reviewing some of DWBH's posts, and looking over the CFF believer's page ... there are a lot of familiar names there, and I wonder how many still hold to twi dogma. Since recently learning some of what went down after 1986, I really question the integrity of those that stuck around while good people that left were slandered.
I ask myself what they think they are protecting, by compromising themselves so much for twi. Do they still believe vic's repackaging of other's works really sets "his" teachings apart, as divinely sanctioned by Gawd? Do they think they are God's special household of believers? Is that divine knowledge so special that it requires overlooking a "few" fatal flaws?
Or, someone here said that an upper innie had said something like, it is not about the Bible anymore ... that makes more sense to me, though I'm not sure they would really admit to that. But the litmus test of the adultery issue seems to have revealed that many chose to put vic's crimes and sins doctrinal heresy above common sense and written laws the Word.
I'm very glad I spent my years playing volleyball, fishing, drinking beer, and mardi gras'ing ... instead of trying to make vic's cult dreams live on for another generation. I was connected with wide range of New Orleans folksand events ... not a little group of likeminded wayfers. Yikes ...
It does sorta clarify what a hold VP held over these men, and still holds over some even after his death. Why would they possibly want to make the likes of molester vic proud?
The Way prided itself on it's "like mindedness" in regards to the Word, the teaching on the bible. Well, you can't be if you don't know what it is. Can you?
Knowing "what is available" is a cornerstone of the Way's doctrines. It's also a Key Kommon Sense thingie too. What are my options? Choices? Can't believe if I don't know, 1st session PFAL. People are destroyed for lack of knowledge, right?
The PFAL series and associated classes gave an ample forum for progressive growth in the participants.
Yet, we do see a vacuum of open dialogue let along teaching, in the Way, when it comes to this threads topic - a veritable desert. Dry tumbleweeds on a dirt road would look like a forest by comparison. Nada. Zipski. Zero. Less than zero, minus. Deafening silence. One big long Timeout on the topic.
No scripture, no Greek, no Aramaic, no word studies, no new work, no old work, no appropriated text from others writings, no seminars, workshops, classes, home study courses, summer camps, Advances, Corps Research Projects, Sunday Night Service tapes, no Way Magazine articles, no Advanced Class Specials, no Certificates of Completion to hang proudly. No nothing.
Diddly and Squat on this, for public consumption. The only knowledge of it, imparted one-on-one, and only amongst certain people at certain times and then never to be openly discussed.
here's a quote from a letter from john lynn, one of the signers of that 37 page letter that caused such a stir 21 years ago
"In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille (TWI Founder) would be very proud of what we are doing. We have taken the keys to the Word's interpretation that he taught us and used them to evaluate his own teachings, correcting those that did not agree with Scripture. We have never lost sight of the goal of moving the Word around the world. If that is still your goal, or if you think there is any way we could be of service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us."
so, john honestly believes vic would be "proud" of what he, schoenheit and graeser have done and are doing, eh?..........what in the hell does that mean???is that some kind of feather in your ministry's cap?...............more like a scarlet letter, imho!..............but, at least he's giving credit where credit is due!..........which is more than i can say for cff, and many other offshoots who spend a lot of time and effort covering up the wierwille roots of their existence and belief systems!
Thanks DontWorry for touching on the reasons you all penned the 37 page doc that way, it makes sense now, your job was restoration.
He's definitely drinking the Kool-Aid again, maybe drinking his own Kool-Aid. :blink:
Actually, it's called an ad hominem argument. Since the leaders obviously thought so hightly of VP, if Schoenheet, et al., could get the leaders to believe that VP would approve of the paper, they could win teh day, regardless of the actual merit of the argument.
...Why didn't wierwille teach Adultery Bedside Manners to the corps? All the corps? Wasn't the corps 'training' supposed to equip us with spiritual truths? Yet, I never was taught on the benefits of adultery during my corps training.
Adultery Bedside manners? Is that ABs?
"The benefits of adultery..." (LOL)
so, john honestly believes vic would be "proud" of what he, schoenheit and graeser have done and are doing, eh?..........what in the hell does that mean???
Dunno about you, but I don't want to do anything that would make VPW "proud" of me (shudder).
But I really do want to do a lot that will make JC and my Father "proud" of me. Like, "listen," and "do" (or not do as the case may be). (tongue in cheek) Did I not read some place (like Exodus): "Thou shalt not commit adultery"?
The Way prided itself on it's "like mindedness" in regards to the Word, the teaching on the bible. Well, you can't be if you don't know what it is. Can you?
Knowing "what is available" is a cornerstone of the Way's doctrines. It's also a Key Kommon Sense thingie too. What are my options? Choices? Can't believe if I don't know, 1st session PFAL. People are destroyed for lack of knowledge, right?
The PFAL series and associated classes gave an ample forum for progressive growth in the participants.
Yet, we do see a vacuum of open dialogue let along teaching, in the Way, when it comes to this threads topic - a veritable desert. Dry tumbleweeds on a dirt road would look like a forest by comparison. Nada. Zipski. Zero. Less than zero, minus. Deafening silence. One big long Timeout on the topic.
No scripture, no Greek, no Aramaic, no word studies, no new work, no old work, no appropriated text from others writings, no seminars, workshops, classes, home study courses, summer camps, Advances, Corps Research Projects, Sunday Night Service tapes, no Way Magazine articles, no Advanced Class Specials, no Certificates of Completion to hang proudly. No nothing.
Diddly and Squat on this, for public consumption. The only knowledge of it, imparted one-on-one, and only amongst certain people at certain times and then never to be openly discussed.
socks.........yeah, "Diddly" went to run gartmore and "Squat" got ousted as twi's prez in 2000.
Seriously though........a "deafening silence" would frame the topic of adultery in wierwille's world quite well. And, wasn't the Christian Family and Sex class filmed in like 1975 (?).......when wierwille was 58 years old? Heck, he could have skipped the slang terms for the breasts and genitalia and taught some BIBLICAL TRUTHS ON ADULTERY....... or was that too much to ask?
When I exited twi and stepped into a management position.......this company mandated attendance for all managers on a Saturday conference dealing with professional conduct in the workplace. Among the topics covered in detail were communication skills, appropriate and inappropriate behavior, personal boundaries, sexual harrassment and many other areas of "professionalism." I learned MORE in this company seminar about these topics than all my years of corps/clergy with twi.
Seems like wierwille/twi had AN UNWRITTEN POLICY to avoid this "adultery issue" at all costs.......so much for *it is written* but no one in twi can address the sin of adultery that God wants his very elect to know.
Well, maybe it was like tithing. Next to nothing about tithing taught in the New Testament. Howza come the o-nay ention-may?
Easy, sez the Wayfer - because they already knew all about it and didn't need to be taught it. It was a universal principle, a law of 'bundance that spans all time and space and everything inbetween. Doesn't need to be taught Beavis, get a grip. Normally when something isn't taught or mentioned, there's a reason and now we have one so you just stop your yakkin'.
Maybe adultery fell into the same category. Marriage being what God intended, the topic may have been so obvious there was no need to teach about it. It was obvious - when you make a vow for something serious, like say to take care of a neighbor's sheep while they're away, you keep the vow, or at least are expected to try to.
Same with marriage, except there should definitely NOT be any sheep involved and your neighbors spouse doesn't require any care while the other's away. It's so simple really. Marriage - no sheep, leave the sheeps out of it, and keep to your own and your neighbor do likewise. I'm sure that's why the commandment in the O.T. addresses both adultery and "coveting" so simply. And remember - the laws governing sheep and other livestock never mention anything about marital vows either. But vows are vows and apply to both spouses and marriage, and of course arrangements for livestock care.
Come to think of it, there's not much teaching about sheep in the CF and S class either...this may be a subject worth looking in to. We may have missed something, something obvious and universal, and essential to living a fully 'bundant life. Something only a few that were really big enough spiritually could handle.
Same with marriage, except there should definitely NOT be any sheep involved and your neighbors spouse doesn't require any care while the other's away. It's so simple really. Marriage - no sheep, leave the sheeps out of it, and keep to your own and your neighbor do likewise. I'm sure that's why the commandment in the O.T. addresses both adultery and "coveting" so simply. And remember - the laws governing sheep and other livestock never mention anything about marital vows either. But vows are vows and apply to both spouses and marriage, and of course arrangements for livestock care.
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Ham
I think some of those guys who took the bait.. vic STILL owns them, even from the grave..
DontWorryBeHappy
hello fellow greasespotters!............oh yeah, it was "BIG" alright!..................and yet, as big as it was, it was only the most obvious "tip of the iceberg" of the endemic and profound doctrin
DontWorryBeHappy
why should the "leaders" of twi splinters/offshoots be held accountable for their continued adherence to the teachings of vic?............because until they remove the presence of vic from their consc
Twinky
One day we will look back on all this and laugh about it...how silly we all were, to get sucked in. Till then, there is still a lot of pain and heartache to be eased.
What a great follow-up to RD's interview it would be if Paw could get an interview with John Sch-heit.
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Ham
or at least, get a personal prophecy for us..
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T-Bone
Great thread, great posts!
You nailed it! A Secret Agenda Society indeed! Their real priority became obvious when you see the mandated response to Schoxnheit's paper – that hit 'em where it hurts!...Yeah, I gotcha greatest secret in the world today right here – vp gave the green light on adultery.
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polar bear
Great thread Sky-Hit the nail (or mog) right in the head.
Where are all the VP defenders?
Guess they can't say anything now they been shown where the guy was coming from.
Another problem arose from their lust and greed that they never counted on. I know of several leaders from limb leaders on down who got wind of the "secret mog sex games" and went at it with anyone they could get their hands on.
Ruined a lot of people's lives.
I still say they should be hung.
The whole lot should be put in jail.
And where were the wives? They knew what their men were doing, counseling woman at late hours of the night one on one.
If they had any guts they would have left these bozos.
These supposed leaders were always counseling women one on one contrary to what they were teaching. Hypocrites.
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waysider
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skyrider
Whatever one calls it.......The Secret Agenda Society, the adultery club, the inner sanctum, the spiritually mature machos, or the wierwille wannabes.......it has the stench of 'seductive bribery' on it.
How 'spiritually mature' does one have to get.......to join?
Why didn't wierwille teach Adultery Bedside Manners to the corps? All the corps? Wasn't the corps 'training' supposed to equip us with spiritual truths? Yet, I never was taught on the benefits of adultery during my corps training.
How about teaching all the clergy THIS...?? Nope......once again, even as twi clergy, I WAS NOT TAUGHT THIS.
And furthermore..........THIS ADULTERY STUFF should have been handled in any respectable 'Christian Family and Sex' class.
And why not write A SERIES OF ARTICLES ON ADULTERY in the way mag?.......rather than the regurgitating of 'blue book law of believing' stuff infinitum?
Seems like 'the sin of adultery' has been given THE SILENT TREATMENT.......for a long, long time.
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penguin
The newest family class taught by the "enthusiastic" (Sarcasm here) Coulters actually taught that adultury was wrong--and also that bestiality is wrong too...
:o
That class was released in 200 or 2005---I can't remember which and don't care to strain my brain right now trying to remember.
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DontWorryBeHappy
why should the "leaders" of twi splinters/offshoots be held accountable for their continued adherence to the teachings of vic?............because until they remove the presence of vic from their consciousness of god, and vic's "understanding" of the word "as it has not been known since the first cfentury" is no longer the theological foundation for their "biblical researvch" and teaching, regardless of how many errors they claim to have corrected, they willfully perpetuate the "ministry" and teachings of their "father in the word"...........and, in so doing, they perpetuate the hurt to and abuse of far too many members in particular of the body of christ!...........
these various "christian leaders" tout their non-denominationalism in order to cover the anti-denominationalism they inherited from their "father-in-the-word"..........they've also adopted his anti-intellectualism and pride when it comes to their professed ability to "accurately" research, study, teach and "manifest" "god's word" better than your church can or does.......they need to stay close to the doctrines and practices that have "earned them a living" through these years of distancing themselves from the "sins" of vic without cutting off the financial benefits of supplying vic's hapless former followers with enough of his old , watered down teaching to keep 'em "inspired" to give!..........after all, who ordained these guys?.......how many have gone on to legitimate, fully accredited and recognized seminaries to acquire professional, christian training in order to effectively and honestly minister to god's people??.............until they do, their "ministries" are destined to repeat the mistakes and patterns of spiritual abuse programmed into the false doctrines vic drilled into their collective consciousness!...........after all, these guys all started out "helping" twi refugees in the late 1980's and through the 90's , as the doofus from okie was busy purging twi of all debbil spurts along with any normal human beings still functioning behind the walls of zion in his bizzarro world of the "present truth"!................lots of them had a quick answer for the twi refugees who wanted to know where they should send their "abundant sharing", did'nt they??..............several enjoyed the "miracle" of the believers or a believer buying them a house, or building them a church............what were these believers believing back then???.................pfal etc.?...............oh yeah..............can't kill that "cash cow", so we'll raise our own, and of course, we'll get people's believing up by charging for it.......and we'll have meetings, and home fellowhips, and classes, and bible land tours, and lots of events to keep everybody busy "moving the word", and we'll write books , and we won't make mistakes with god's people, and we will continue to rightly divide the word until christ comes back, and..............and...................
here's a quote from a letter from john lynn, one of the signers of that 37 page letter that caused such a stir 21 years ago................this quote is from a letter posted at the cesonline site, and recently linked to by a poster on the "who are these people" thread..........it's very interesting to compare this letter, revised in september, 2007, with the letter from john posted on the same site dated march, 1988.............here's the quote from the september, 2007 letter:
"In closing, let me say that I honestly believe that Dr. Wierwille (TWI Founder) would be very proud of what we are doing. We have taken the keys to the Word's interpretation that he taught us and used them to evaluate his own teachings, correcting those that did not agree with Scripture. We have never lost sight of the goal of moving the Word around the world. If that is still your goal, or if you think there is any way we could be of service to you, please do not hesitate to contact us."
so, john honestly believes vic would be "proud" of what he, schoenheit and graeser have done and are doing, eh?..........what in the hell does that mean???is that some kind of feather in your ministry's cap?...............more like a scarlet letter, imho!..............but, at least he's giving credit where credit is due!..........which is more than i can say for cff, and many other offshoots who spend a lot of time and effort covering up the wierwille roots of their existence and belief systems!
imho, that's why greasespot is here! at least there's one place in this information culture where you can get the real story about vic and his progeny, without the twists and turns, or rationalizations necessary to promote your own "secret agenda"!...........the reality brew is the best cup o' joe available in cyberspace if you wanna get the other side of the story about twi and vic's pack of mini-cults busily moving his word over the world.................i wonder if vic would be proud of those of us who "waste our time" posting here?......i think jesus christ might be...............................peace.
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now I see
Thanks DontWorry for touching on the reasons you all penned the 37 page doc that way, it makes sense now, your job was restoration.
I don’t know DontWorry, I’m having a hard time with this one, how could they not know it was wrong? Craig had been a Baptist, he knew better, were all the wives on board with this practice also, surely some objected? A Greasespot poster had posted on an old thread that someone in this inner circle stated something to the effect, “you don’t really still believe this bible stuff do you?” It seems from the Yak twig reactions they didn’t really either, they had gotten away with it for so long, why should they fear God?You’re right everything ultimately comes down to our individual relationship with God. They all were very good about leaving us hanging, almost nothing about the problems within TWI were explained, therefore no reconciliation was needed in their minds I suppose. Those they got rid of were given the bum’s rush, slandered and forgotten, those leaders wanted no reconciliation anyway. Those in the offshoots offered no answers or explanations either….and exhibited no guilt, even if they had formerly ACTIVELY participated in the demise of their brothers and sisters in the twi years..
He's definitely drinking the Kool-Aid again, maybe drinking his own Kool-Aid. :blink:
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now I see
That's too difficult for them, they would have to get honest about the whole situation, past and present, relinquesh any authoritative power that they weild over their believers, and perhaps do a self check on the heirarchal system they still subscribe to. It would rock their world. Perhaps there would be another exodus, people would leave!
You know what I think they did when they left twi, they employed the magic wand, and simply made all the bad stuff dissapear...or maybe it was the Jedi mind trick.
The act of leaving TWI was their opportunity to declare themselves as a brand new thing, anything from the twi years that required greater scruitiny were all covered up, and became null and void.
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TheHighWay
That was their biggest cover at the time... without the kind of communication available today (cell phones, internet) most of us only knew what happened in our particular areas, even if we did have friends all over the country. We were taught not to speak ill of our fellow believers so hardly any of us realized that this was going on all over the place!! If we had known, many of us would have left long before we did.
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Ham
The old "vic would be so proud.." claim,
wouldn't that make as much sense as upon opening a soup kitchen for the poor, the workers there would assemble and proclaim "and Doctor Capone would be so proud of our efforts, seeing his legacy continue to live in the third and fourth generation.."
You bring up a good point though. What actually IS it that they think they are *doing* that ole vic would be proud of?
Wallowing and getting caught up in the momentus debacle, and the resulting egotism, arrogance and power struggles?
Subscribing to every lunatic fringe belief they could find, in search for something "unique" to offer their flock?
What about the personal prophecy fiasco, and resulting "sue me, sue you blues"?
Hmm. Maybe that's what the "non-denominational" claim is about.. trying to bury their old association. But it isn't exactly honest, is it? I mean.. they draw material from the old ministry, sing the same songs.. play the same music, have practically identical "worship" services along with a certain number of tongues with interpretation and "prophecy", which in all likelihood, would sound remarkably similar or even identical to what one would hear in a modern vey "household" meeting.. plus they have "power of gawd" classes, in which one can EASILY see the material from old vic's classes carefully grafted in.. the old ministry may be an unwilling partner in "the church".. but isn't it obvious that the way IS their denomination?
Plus, every "denominational affiliate" just HAS to have a shrine of sorts dedicated to der "manogawd" who taught us "der verd"..
CES practically puts it on the front page of their internet site. Or at least one can observe it isn't hard to be found.
I'll ask I guess.. what about cff? I'd imagine they have a shrine somewhere on grounds dedicated to the vicster..
please tell me if I'm wrong..
:)
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Ham
When they started fishing around for something as "harmless" as a "mission statement", to define how they are different than the rest of the world, I could see trouble coming.. along with statements like "well, the PURPOSE of our meetings isn't to socialize, have fun.. a person can find THAT out in the WORLD.. we're here to LEARN the WORD.."
As far as having a mission statement- why bind one's own hands, or God's, to begin with? "THIS is what we do.."
What is this with the incessant NEED to be DIFFERENT?
It seems to me, the more they try to be "different".. the more they stay the same..
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Ham
It's like.. slowly, one class at a time, one meeting after another, one dedication to the vicster after another.. one program after another, which some are identical in name to one in the old *ministry*..
along with a *loosely* affiliated "survivor" program which will only resurrect the same kind of hierarchy and arrogance in their *loosely affiliated* groups..
aren't they becoming what they abandoned, and detested?
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skyrider
Yeah, with vic's 'go ahead'.......martindale admits that he's 'done this hundreds of times and its 'administered godly profit' to these girls. [isn't that what the podcast stated.....of lcm's admissions?]
And, Ge-er was SO ADAMANT in shutting down schoenhext's adultery paper.....makes for LOTS of speculation. Also, with Walter's response.........and later, walter goes on to 'join the geerite movement' with his research skills.....when he can't see A COMPARABLE SIXTH-GRADE UNDERSTANDING OF ADULTERY.
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rhino
It does sorta clarify what a hold VP held over these men, and still holds over some even after his death. Why would they possibly want to make the likes of molester vic proud?
I just was reviewing some of DWBH's posts, and looking over the CFF believer's page ... there are a lot of familiar names there, and I wonder how many still hold to twi dogma. Since recently learning some of what went down after 1986, I really question the integrity of those that stuck around while good people that left were slandered.
I ask myself what they think they are protecting, by compromising themselves so much for twi. Do they still believe vic's repackaging of other's works really sets "his" teachings apart, as divinely sanctioned by Gawd? Do they think they are God's special household of believers? Is that divine knowledge so special that it requires overlooking a "few" fatal flaws?
Or, someone here said that an upper innie had said something like, it is not about the Bible anymore ... that makes more sense to me, though I'm not sure they would really admit to that. But the litmus test of the adultery issue seems to have revealed that many chose to put vic's crimes and sins doctrinal heresy above common sense and written laws the Word.
I'm very glad I spent my years playing volleyball, fishing, drinking beer, and mardi gras'ing ... instead of trying to make vic's cult dreams live on for another generation. I was connected with wide range of New Orleans folksand events ... not a little group of likeminded wayfers. Yikes ...
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brideofjc
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socks
The Way prided itself on it's "like mindedness" in regards to the Word, the teaching on the bible. Well, you can't be if you don't know what it is. Can you?
Knowing "what is available" is a cornerstone of the Way's doctrines. It's also a Key Kommon Sense thingie too. What are my options? Choices? Can't believe if I don't know, 1st session PFAL. People are destroyed for lack of knowledge, right?
The PFAL series and associated classes gave an ample forum for progressive growth in the participants.
Yet, we do see a vacuum of open dialogue let along teaching, in the Way, when it comes to this threads topic - a veritable desert. Dry tumbleweeds on a dirt road would look like a forest by comparison. Nada. Zipski. Zero. Less than zero, minus. Deafening silence. One big long Timeout on the topic.
No scripture, no Greek, no Aramaic, no word studies, no new work, no old work, no appropriated text from others writings, no seminars, workshops, classes, home study courses, summer camps, Advances, Corps Research Projects, Sunday Night Service tapes, no Way Magazine articles, no Advanced Class Specials, no Certificates of Completion to hang proudly. No nothing.
Diddly and Squat on this, for public consumption. The only knowledge of it, imparted one-on-one, and only amongst certain people at certain times and then never to be openly discussed.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Actually, it's called an ad hominem argument. Since the leaders obviously thought so hightly of VP, if Schoenheet, et al., could get the leaders to believe that VP would approve of the paper, they could win teh day, regardless of the actual merit of the argument.
George
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Twinky
Adultery Bedside manners? Is that ABs?
"The benefits of adultery..." (LOL)
Dunno about you, but I don't want to do anything that would make VPW "proud" of me (shudder).
But I really do want to do a lot that will make JC and my Father "proud" of me. Like, "listen," and "do" (or not do as the case may be). (tongue in cheek) Did I not read some place (like Exodus): "Thou shalt not commit adultery"?
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skyrider
socks.........yeah, "Diddly" went to run gartmore and "Squat" got ousted as twi's prez in 2000.
Seriously though........a "deafening silence" would frame the topic of adultery in wierwille's world quite well. And, wasn't the Christian Family and Sex class filmed in like 1975 (?).......when wierwille was 58 years old? Heck, he could have skipped the slang terms for the breasts and genitalia and taught some BIBLICAL TRUTHS ON ADULTERY....... or was that too much to ask?
When I exited twi and stepped into a management position.......this company mandated attendance for all managers on a Saturday conference dealing with professional conduct in the workplace. Among the topics covered in detail were communication skills, appropriate and inappropriate behavior, personal boundaries, sexual harrassment and many other areas of "professionalism." I learned MORE in this company seminar about these topics than all my years of corps/clergy with twi.
Seems like wierwille/twi had AN UNWRITTEN POLICY to avoid this "adultery issue" at all costs.......so much for *it is written* but no one in twi can address the sin of adultery that God wants his very elect to know.
<_<
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socks
Well, maybe it was like tithing. Next to nothing about tithing taught in the New Testament. Howza come the o-nay ention-may?
Easy, sez the Wayfer - because they already knew all about it and didn't need to be taught it. It was a universal principle, a law of 'bundance that spans all time and space and everything inbetween. Doesn't need to be taught Beavis, get a grip. Normally when something isn't taught or mentioned, there's a reason and now we have one so you just stop your yakkin'.
Maybe adultery fell into the same category. Marriage being what God intended, the topic may have been so obvious there was no need to teach about it. It was obvious - when you make a vow for something serious, like say to take care of a neighbor's sheep while they're away, you keep the vow, or at least are expected to try to.
Same with marriage, except there should definitely NOT be any sheep involved and your neighbors spouse doesn't require any care while the other's away. It's so simple really. Marriage - no sheep, leave the sheeps out of it, and keep to your own and your neighbor do likewise. I'm sure that's why the commandment in the O.T. addresses both adultery and "coveting" so simply. And remember - the laws governing sheep and other livestock never mention anything about marital vows either. But vows are vows and apply to both spouses and marriage, and of course arrangements for livestock care.
Come to think of it, there's not much teaching about sheep in the CF and S class either...this may be a subject worth looking in to. We may have missed something, something obvious and universal, and essential to living a fully 'bundant life. Something only a few that were really big enough spiritually could handle.
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waysider
Well, Ya know-----
The infamous dog from the porno flick discussed in CF&S WAS a German Shepherd!
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Ham
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