I think the perception of being in a cult or not is pretty subjective in many instances, and I also think it depends on a very subjective impression of who and when. An awful lot of folks say TWI was a cult from the get-go, whereas others would say it was a cult only after LCM took over. Again, it's a totally subjective viewpoint based on the individual's point of view and personal experiences.
I hesitate to post anything here that isn't mainstream as I usually get put in my place rather quickly. By mainstream I mean TWI was always a cult, everything about it was bad, everything taught was wrong, and every leader without exception was either a whore or a whoremonger. That is the official viewpoint and doctrine of GSC most of the time. Say anything to the contrary and hatred and contempt will be heaped upon your head. Ask Oldies if you don't believe me. I don't always agree with the guy but I frequently feel sorry for him.
And I'm not talking about the claims of sexual abuse that have been made here. I'm not discounting that at all. I'm sure had I been viciously attacked and brutally raped my subjective impression would be a lot different. But my personal experience most of my 23 years wasn't all that bad, just with certain individuals.
But do I really feel that way? Do I dare say the first 20 years were worth the last 3? No of course not.
whether you were "in" or just hanging out on the fringe doesn't change the fact that twi was a cult. "leaders" learned to concentrate their efforts on the trusting sheep and figure out who would swallow -- ok I'll stop that analogy before it gets out of hand -- but my point is that twi operated a certain way that made/makes it a cult, and how deeply you were effected depends on how much control certain types of people who operated freely on the inside managed to get over you.
actually I think it still IS a cult, it's just operating at a lower level right now. I'd bet money that when the right circumstances fall into place, the cultish aspect of the organization is ready to rear its ugly head again because it hasn't reformed, it hasn't healed, and it's still rotten.
I think there are really two separate questions here.
Was it a cult? and Was I in a cult?
I think we all pretty much know the answer to the first question.
But whether you were in or out really depends on your level of involvement and commitment and how many bridges you burned on your journey. If you didn't burn many bridges, you may not perceive your experience as being a cult experience. Personally, looking back on my Fellow Laborer experience, I would have to accept that I was in a cult. This is based not only on the communal lifestyle we lived, but on how many bridges I burned to get there and how many more I burned to stay there. Only you can answer from both a subjective and objective viewpoint whether your involvement meets the criteria.
My husband and I were talking the other night about when we knew we were involved in a cult. My husband maintains that while TWI was perceived as a cult, our level of involvement kept it from being a cult in our lives.
Yes, you were part of a cult...but it seems that you were able to "keep your distance" and never got close enough to the fire to be burned badly...and that's to your credit.
If you were caught in a hurricane but had a good shelter and survived unscathed, were you really in a hurricane?
When we had alot of autonomy and ran a small twig out in the boonies, I don't believe we were in a cult because we had no authoritarian figure manipulating our lives. So, in our immediate circle, no.
But the seeds of 'obey your leader obey your leader' were already sown in us through teachings, classes, wow program etc. So when the authoritarian leadership made an appearance, we were sucked in...what we knew as right doctrine was to obey the yahoos...and in the end it did not profit us.
A lot of the really "bad stuff" that gets discussed here passed me by, but I have no doubt that I was in a cult.
In retrospect, the seeds of "mind control" were sown in the PFAL class itself. If you graduated from that class believing that Wierwille was utilizing keys to reading and understanding the bible and coming up with "accurate" answers, you were manipulated to some extent.
Early on in PFAL Wierwille stopped simply "reading what was written" and started inventing interpretations, definitions and sources to back up what he said the bible said. He was subtle enough about it that most of us hardly noticed it. Our subsequent attempts at "working the Word" generally were based on his shoddy research, questionable premises and made up definitions, that "checking it out for ourselves" was a hopeless proposition.
My husband and I were talking the other night about when we knew we were involved in a cult. My husband maintains that while TWI was perceived as a cult, our level of involvement kept it from being a cult in our lives.
hmmm i don't buy it
I see nothing wrong with Tazia's statement, Excie. The last three words, "in our lives", become the key. As long as we recognize that TWI in others' lives...such as yours...may not be the same as what we experienced, I see nothing wrong with describing TWI in non evil terms if that is how we experienced it.
I was told by my deprogrammers that the need for my deprogramming was because neither I nor any one else could or ever would walk away from TWI, no matter how bad things got. That has many thousands of times been proven false. And yet, I can now easily see how it was a different ball game in the lives of you and Kristen and others who were subjected to the kind of abuse you went through.
Of course, I will never really know how my life would have turned out without the deprogramming, though while in, I did walk away from a little lesson in loosening up. But that was not directly from leadership, the leadership we had to obey. especially in the corps, to remain in good standing with God.
You know...whether we were negatively impacted personally at a given time...I have to ask.
While we personally were enjoying our *good times* was an innocent brother or sister being destroyed? Was their life, their trust, being shattered by a leader demanding the unthinkable?
In my mind it all boils down to being honest....
Through out the entire history of twi....while the rest of the ministry was having their happy times...there were men that were committing unconscionable evil, if not to us personally, to our brothers and sister. Betraying them in the vilest of ways, demanding and taking that which was never theirs in the name of God! Whether it be a struggling families money, or another mans wife.
These people lived on the money that WE sent in, they were perceived as legitimate Christian leaders because of our endorsements....WE filled their bellies, WE paid the electric bill, WE gave them places to live, Bruno Mali shoes to wear 1000 dollar suits, etc
Innocent people were attracted and became involved, believing in the healthiness of this organization because of OUR efforts.
While our happy little fannies were sitting in fellowship singing standing on the promises...the young corpes girl was being given a drugged drink prior to molestation on the party bus.
A family was being torn apart by a zealous leader in a ....ing contest, ailing family members died alone and unacknowledged because they were considered *natural man* families and of no value....a young woman brokenly submitted to an abortion required in order to not lose God`s blessings...a dead persons reputation was being savaged for failed believing.
This crap was real and it happened. Yeah these guys were evil monsters, YET...they could have NEVER done this without the financial support and promotion of their group by us.
So, deny you were involved in a cult if you want. As far as I am concerned intentional or not, we were an integral part of an organization that betrayed, and destroyed the lives of so many many innocent people in the name of God and facilitated by scriptures. Our youth, exuberance, witnessing, homes, etc were all the lure, what attracted people into the snare. I don`t know what else TO call it :(
To deny the suffering, to pretend that the deaths do not matter, to try to sweep under the carpet the carnage of shattered lives, families torn asunder, even death of the innocent people who turned to this group to find spiritual healing and understanding, to minimalize the suffering endured because one is uncomfortable with ones involvement in a cult, is I think to say that the lives lost, our sisters and brother, our children the suffering were unimportant and inconsequential.
Man up, take a good hard look at what happened, have some compassion for those whom were betrayed, rather than be so fragile that one can`t face the true facts of the organization that we committed our lives and hearts to, because the implications that we might have been mistaken, are too painful to contemplate.
I was only referring to my own experience, not TWI as a whole. For me the few years in a small town running a small twig were not cultlike. What was happening to others in TWI I was at that time,totally unaware of. Things are different now, of course, because I know more--but back then I did not.
Sorry Bramble, I probably should just refrain from posting first thing in the morning. I wasn`t thinking about you, or anybody in particular when I wrote, but rather how easy it is to excuse the ministry and ourselves, from a *cult* in order to feel better about ourselves and what we devoted our life to.
Some are down right dishonest in the lengths that they will go to to try to justify/excuse/diminish the behaviors and damage that place twi squarely in the *abusive, dangerous, cult* catagory.
So, deny you were involved in a cult if you want. As far as I am concerned intentional or not, we were an integral part of an organization that betrayed, and destroyed the lives of so many many innocent people in the name of God and facilitated by scriptures. Our youth, exuberance, witnessing, homes, etc were all the lure, what attracted people into the snare. I don`t know what else TO call it :(
Rascal,
I don't deny being TWI was/is a cult. I don't believe I was a take-parter. I was a person who did stand up to a WC grad. I did stand against things I did not believe were good, right, or true.
I had no idea that things were happening to people at the scale that you all report. I was put off enough by what I was seeing that I couldn't, in good conscience, bring anyone else into it.
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Ham
maybe you were just more immune to the insanity than some of us..
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Watered Garden
I think the perception of being in a cult or not is pretty subjective in many instances, and I also think it depends on a very subjective impression of who and when. An awful lot of folks say TWI was a cult from the get-go, whereas others would say it was a cult only after LCM took over. Again, it's a totally subjective viewpoint based on the individual's point of view and personal experiences.
I hesitate to post anything here that isn't mainstream as I usually get put in my place rather quickly. By mainstream I mean TWI was always a cult, everything about it was bad, everything taught was wrong, and every leader without exception was either a whore or a whoremonger. That is the official viewpoint and doctrine of GSC most of the time. Say anything to the contrary and hatred and contempt will be heaped upon your head. Ask Oldies if you don't believe me. I don't always agree with the guy but I frequently feel sorry for him.
And I'm not talking about the claims of sexual abuse that have been made here. I'm not discounting that at all. I'm sure had I been viciously attacked and brutally raped my subjective impression would be a lot different. But my personal experience most of my 23 years wasn't all that bad, just with certain individuals.
But do I really feel that way? Do I dare say the first 20 years were worth the last 3? No of course not.
WG
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potato
whether you were "in" or just hanging out on the fringe doesn't change the fact that twi was a cult. "leaders" learned to concentrate their efforts on the trusting sheep and figure out who would swallow -- ok I'll stop that analogy before it gets out of hand -- but my point is that twi operated a certain way that made/makes it a cult, and how deeply you were effected depends on how much control certain types of people who operated freely on the inside managed to get over you.
actually I think it still IS a cult, it's just operating at a lower level right now. I'd bet money that when the right circumstances fall into place, the cultish aspect of the organization is ready to rear its ugly head again because it hasn't reformed, it hasn't healed, and it's still rotten.
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TheHighWay
Agreed...
It isn't a question of whether you were in a CULT. (yes you were)
It is more a question of whether you were IN a cult. (sounds like you weren't)
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waysider
I think there are really two separate questions here.
Was it a cult? and Was I in a cult?
I think we all pretty much know the answer to the first question.
But whether you were in or out really depends on your level of involvement and commitment and how many bridges you burned on your journey. If you didn't burn many bridges, you may not perceive your experience as being a cult experience. Personally, looking back on my Fellow Laborer experience, I would have to accept that I was in a cult. This is based not only on the communal lifestyle we lived, but on how many bridges I burned to get there and how many more I burned to stay there. Only you can answer from both a subjective and objective viewpoint whether your involvement meets the criteria.
IMO
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Twinky
Yes, you were in a cult.
No, you weren't a cult-head.
Glad you managed to keep a sound mind!
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Ham
sowie.. wrong thread.. brb.
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excathedra
hmmm i don't buy it
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cheranne
Yes.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yes, you were part of a cult...but it seems that you were able to "keep your distance" and never got close enough to the fire to be burned badly...and that's to your credit.
If you were caught in a hurricane but had a good shelter and survived unscathed, were you really in a hurricane?
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Bramble
When we had alot of autonomy and ran a small twig out in the boonies, I don't believe we were in a cult because we had no authoritarian figure manipulating our lives. So, in our immediate circle, no.
But the seeds of 'obey your leader obey your leader' were already sown in us through teachings, classes, wow program etc. So when the authoritarian leadership made an appearance, we were sucked in...what we knew as right doctrine was to obey the yahoos...and in the end it did not profit us.
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Oakspear
I guess it depends on how you define "cult".
A lot of the really "bad stuff" that gets discussed here passed me by, but I have no doubt that I was in a cult.
In retrospect, the seeds of "mind control" were sown in the PFAL class itself. If you graduated from that class believing that Wierwille was utilizing keys to reading and understanding the bible and coming up with "accurate" answers, you were manipulated to some extent.
Early on in PFAL Wierwille stopped simply "reading what was written" and started inventing interpretations, definitions and sources to back up what he said the bible said. He was subtle enough about it that most of us hardly noticed it. Our subsequent attempts at "working the Word" generally were based on his shoddy research, questionable premises and made up definitions, that "checking it out for ourselves" was a hopeless proposition.
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ex10
Maybe it's just me, but the answer to the question might lie in the fact that we even have to ask the question. :blink:
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doojable
TWI is a cult.
You were in a cult.
The cult didn't stay in you. (YAY!)
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Lifted Up
I see nothing wrong with Tazia's statement, Excie. The last three words, "in our lives", become the key. As long as we recognize that TWI in others' lives...such as yours...may not be the same as what we experienced, I see nothing wrong with describing TWI in non evil terms if that is how we experienced it.
I was told by my deprogrammers that the need for my deprogramming was because neither I nor any one else could or ever would walk away from TWI, no matter how bad things got. That has many thousands of times been proven false. And yet, I can now easily see how it was a different ball game in the lives of you and Kristen and others who were subjected to the kind of abuse you went through.
Of course, I will never really know how my life would have turned out without the deprogramming, though while in, I did walk away from a little lesson in loosening up. But that was not directly from leadership, the leadership we had to obey. especially in the corps, to remain in good standing with God.
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WordWolf
I think this summed it up.
I was going to say
"You were in a cult, but the cult was not in you."
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rascal
You know...whether we were negatively impacted personally at a given time...I have to ask.
While we personally were enjoying our *good times* was an innocent brother or sister being destroyed? Was their life, their trust, being shattered by a leader demanding the unthinkable?
In my mind it all boils down to being honest....
Through out the entire history of twi....while the rest of the ministry was having their happy times...there were men that were committing unconscionable evil, if not to us personally, to our brothers and sister. Betraying them in the vilest of ways, demanding and taking that which was never theirs in the name of God! Whether it be a struggling families money, or another mans wife.
These people lived on the money that WE sent in, they were perceived as legitimate Christian leaders because of our endorsements....WE filled their bellies, WE paid the electric bill, WE gave them places to live, Bruno Mali shoes to wear 1000 dollar suits, etc
Innocent people were attracted and became involved, believing in the healthiness of this organization because of OUR efforts.
While our happy little fannies were sitting in fellowship singing standing on the promises...the young corpes girl was being given a drugged drink prior to molestation on the party bus.
A family was being torn apart by a zealous leader in a ....ing contest, ailing family members died alone and unacknowledged because they were considered *natural man* families and of no value....a young woman brokenly submitted to an abortion required in order to not lose God`s blessings...a dead persons reputation was being savaged for failed believing.
This crap was real and it happened. Yeah these guys were evil monsters, YET...they could have NEVER done this without the financial support and promotion of their group by us.
So, deny you were involved in a cult if you want. As far as I am concerned intentional or not, we were an integral part of an organization that betrayed, and destroyed the lives of so many many innocent people in the name of God and facilitated by scriptures. Our youth, exuberance, witnessing, homes, etc were all the lure, what attracted people into the snare. I don`t know what else TO call it :(
To deny the suffering, to pretend that the deaths do not matter, to try to sweep under the carpet the carnage of shattered lives, families torn asunder, even death of the innocent people who turned to this group to find spiritual healing and understanding, to minimalize the suffering endured because one is uncomfortable with ones involvement in a cult, is I think to say that the lives lost, our sisters and brother, our children the suffering were unimportant and inconsequential.
Man up, take a good hard look at what happened, have some compassion for those whom were betrayed, rather than be so fragile that one can`t face the true facts of the organization that we committed our lives and hearts to, because the implications that we might have been mistaken, are too painful to contemplate.
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Bramble
I was only referring to my own experience, not TWI as a whole. For me the few years in a small town running a small twig were not cultlike. What was happening to others in TWI I was at that time,totally unaware of. Things are different now, of course, because I know more--but back then I did not.
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rascal
Sorry Bramble, I probably should just refrain from posting first thing in the morning. I wasn`t thinking about you, or anybody in particular when I wrote, but rather how easy it is to excuse the ministry and ourselves, from a *cult* in order to feel better about ourselves and what we devoted our life to.
Some are down right dishonest in the lengths that they will go to to try to justify/excuse/diminish the behaviors and damage that place twi squarely in the *abusive, dangerous, cult* catagory.
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washn'wear
"In" is a relative subjective word...
Associated with - definatley.
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excathedra
thank you for your post, lifted up, and i really meant no disrespect to taz or anyone
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Tzaia
Rascal,
I don't deny being TWI was/is a cult. I don't believe I was a take-parter. I was a person who did stand up to a WC grad. I did stand against things I did not believe were good, right, or true.
I had no idea that things were happening to people at the scale that you all report. I was put off enough by what I was seeing that I couldn't, in good conscience, bring anyone else into it.
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GrouchoMarxJr
OK kids...it's time to get down to the bottom line...
When Vic told his story of the snow on the gas pumps and how God spoke to him...and when you believed it...at that moment you were in a cult...
If the sexual abuse never happened and none of the other bad stuff happened...you were still in a cult.
That's where it started...that was the hook.
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Ham
Yah.. simply because one believed.. should I say it? A lie, a falsehood.. despite my or anyone elses better judgement..
Maybe some can't look at that kind of darkness..
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