At some point, maybe the 90's, we weren't supposed to get a signature on a green card unless it was accompanied by the full "donation".
In the mid-90's, when I believe the "donation" was 40 or 50 dollars, I would temporarily hire people to put flyers in doors at something like 5 cents apiece, when they got 1000 flyers done, the $50 went to cover the class.
In my observation, it was pretty easy to find people who wanted to take PFAL back in the 70's and early 80's, and a lot of them stuck around. It became more and more difficult in the early 90's. And the ones who did take PFAL hardly ever stayed with it. It became even more difficult to recruit during the Way of Abundance & Power days.
Most Christian denominations offer FREE education classes for introducing the faith to new people(catechism). There are ecumenical DVD's/books such as Nicky Gumbel's Alpha/Questions of Life(supplemented with A Life Worth Living, Challenging Lifestyles, 7 Searching Issues, Heart of Revival, and Jermy Jennings Dynamic Prayer in the Local Church); Rob Weber/Andy Langford/Mark Ralls 3 part series Beginings; Michael Green-Reality; Christian Believer-Knowing God with heart and mind by Ellsworth Kalas; Powersurge by Michael Foss; and Rick Warren-Purpose Driven Life/Thomas Holliday-Foundations in the Christian Faith. In addition, there is Crossways/Divine Drama, and the new ELCA/Augsburg Fortress Book of Faith iniative. The host church pays for the material(no cost to the student) with free meal/refreshments and free childcare/baby-sitting. TWI and the offshoots are more concerned about money than really and truly helping others(fear of bankruptcy and leaders becoming homeless).
Tzaia, thanks for starting a new thread, I feel this topic begs discussion too.
Twi needed a way to fleece the newcomers, why not charge $200 for this class especially since at least half of the people would be gone within the year. The excuses they used for charging for a class on the bible were foundless especially since the class was put together as a marketing ploy filled with errors propounded as the gospell, and subsequently used as an arm for vp to controll and manipulate followers in the twi culture.
There was a lot of pressure 1975 when I first got involved to take the class, the personal benefit angle was highly pushed, donating money to newbies for their enrollment fees was discouraged, commitment was highly encouraged.
There's a quote from this thread on this same topic of money, people and christian ethics- http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...riends&st=0 that I felt nailed it on the head so much that I made it my signatory statement for a while, it was:
"No thanks...my friends don't charge me money for being my friend, my savior doesn't charge me money for being my Lord and God doesn't charge me money for being my God...If you want to charge me money for your "services"...fine...I'll consider you as I do any of my other bills, such as my electric bill, phone bill or rent...I'll pay you out of obligation for services rendered...
...but don't be surprised when I don't subscribe to your "business" and pay you nothing...you want to sell tapes and books and make a living out of it?...good for you...look elsewhere because I'm not buying stuff that God gives me for free..."
The generosity and compassion were always LOCAL, and UNOFFICIAL.
The official story was always "get their money."
I also think that the fee was a setup to get people in the mode of shelling out their dollars from the very beginning.
At "graduation" of course you then had to subscribe to The Way Mag, Sunday Night Tapes and start paying for the Intermediate Class.
After that the infinite number of classes, advances, books you were expected to buy and volunteer to do the work for was bred in.... and o yea--dont forget to "abundantly share".
Looking back to my waydaze-Its amazing how many poverty level people who barely could survive were being fleeced by this mechanism in the name of God.
A very high percentage of the people I knew at the time who were getting involved were minimum wage workers with limited skills who were constantly in some state of transition. While looking for hope what they found was someone attempting to take what little that they had
Yes, I always hated that. Couldn't see why I had to pay. No church I'd ever heard of made one pay.
I took ages to come up with the money. I was really hesitant. It was only because the person who had witnessed to me and eventually got me to sign up was coming under huge pressure from others (probably interim Corps) to stop hanging around with me. He was on his WoW year and just nobody was signing up.
At the time I said, if it's a donation why do I have to pay? If it's a charge, call it so.
I was told the £25 (I think; varied between £25 and £50) was to cover the cost of books and materials. When I got the books, I thought, these couldn't possibly cost £25 to produce, how much mark-up is there on these?
Ha ha. Welcome to the world of obligation and double-speak. Had I known what was to come, I would have departed right after PFAL.
The Alpha course starts with a group meal, then a talk, then a discussion time. Anyone can talk about any thing. No charge for the evening. People are invited to contribute towards the cost of the group meal but it's not obligatory and no-one keeps a record.
This thread's made me think: what they were looking for was the "fleeceable" ones - who they could get putting their hands in their pockets right from the get-go.
And I ahve a suspicion that even at that stage, those who would not pay up were subject to some minor condemnation - not wanting to enjoy the greatness of God's Word.
Of course, right after (if not during) PFAL there was the "encouragement" to buy the Blue Book then the rest of the collaterals... and the subscriptions to the Way Mag etc
The most significant realization I came to was a simple one, that it's wrong to charge for distributing something that isn't yours. If the Bible's God's Word, then it's His. If the enlightenment to understand it comes through His opening it up to someone then the understanding is between God and that person and it's individual and personal. I can read the Bible or read it to someone and "teach" it but I'm acting as a representative so to speak, an "ambassador". I can share the enlightened understanding but it's not a commodity or a product. I can make it into a product but all I've done is repackage the package. Charge for the repackaging? Who's idea is that?
VPW claimed to have enlightened understanding that no one else had and that was vital and essential to a proper and correct understanding of God, life, the Bible and the things of God and life. If you didn't have that teaching you couldn't lead a true abundant life "in Christ".
I would now say it's immoral to charge another person for it. If the values are placed correctly there's no other conclusion to arrive at.
Compared to something of a lesser nature but similar - the reports that come up during catastrophe's like hurricanes or floods, where someone sells liter's of water for 4-5-10 dollars a pop when no water is available. People have to have water, it's essential. Water's normally relatively cheap, allowing for the container or the utility service costs and if it's doesn't have a fancy name on the label.
Profiting from the misfortune of others in times of great need by gouging people is considered morally reprehensible, dastardly, a "crime" of sorts.
I see charging for "God's Word" no different and moreso, on a higher level. Selling what isn't mine with the understanding that it's exactly what God wants you to know - that's a no-no.
In fact, I'd go a step further and say that doing so, functioning that way, can open the door for and set an environment where all other manner of weakness and failing can flourish. Mixing God and "mammon" doesn't work according to Jesus. Business and industry has a place. God's Word isn't a business.
Luke 16:13-15 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Today too people will cluck their tongues at the naivete of the idea that a teaching ministry shouldn't charge for it's teaching. How else will it thrive and survive? How else, indeed, is a very good question.
All of the pratical caveats - cost for printing, materials, time, etc. etc. can be handled if handled carefully and with the understanding that to profit from selling "God's Word" is off limits.
n fact, I'd go a step further and say that doing so, functioning that way, can open the door for and set an environment where all other manner of weakness and failing can flourish.
that one needs to be inlaid in gold somewhere, great point socks!--and it did set that environment and filtered through everything there--it was always about what can I get out of it--on a corporate level and sometimes on a personal level by the approach that was taught
The whole attitude was wrong--a 'product' a sale, a scam----if as you say you are only a representative--an ambassador--then do as instructed--freely ye have recieved-freely give----by sharing in that attitude without a price tag you'll be cultivating the same 'freely give' attitude in those that choose to believe you.
Churches all over the country/world flourish much more than TWI ever did or will without pricetags attached to the sermons and classes...
Yeah, I thought the "freely received, freely given [away]" bit, too. Though I realize Bibles are not given away except by the Gideons, and I accept that study books also need to be paid for. But not at a huge mark-up!
On the other hand: how much is the cost of the following? TLB recites:
Nicky Gumbel's Alpha/Questions of Life(supplemented with A Life Worth Living, Challenging Lifestyles, 7 Searching Issues, Heart of Revival, and Jeremy Jennings Dynamic Prayer in the Local Church); Rob Weber/Andy Langford/Mark Ralls 3 part series Beginings; Michael Green-Reality; Christian Believer-Knowing God with heart and mind by Ellsworth Kalas; Powersurge by Michael Foss; and Rick Warren-Purpose Driven Life/Thomas Holliday-Foundations in the Christian Faith. In addition, there is Crossways/Divine Drama, and the new ELCA/Augsburg Fortress Book of Faith iniative.
TLB also says:
The host church pays for the material (no cost to the student) with free meal/refreshments and free childcare/baby-sitting.
I posted above that the Alpha course that I did a few sessions of invited donations (and they were donations, non-obligatory) towards the cost of a meal. If you couldn't or didn't want to contribute that was fine.
I do think that if TWI had provided free meals and babysitting services, that also would have been a point of argument for some people here. They would say it was like those free meals that Moonies invited people to. So in that respect TWI was criticized if it did and criticized if it didn't.
(Come to think about it, as my PFAL was all day Sat (2 sessions) and all day Sun (2 sessions) they DID provide the meals and I can't recall being asked for a financial contribution.)
I don't see a problem charging for bible courses or Christian books. I love to go to the Christian bookstore. I order things from ministries. Seminary is not free--except Moody of course.
Some things are free---cd's podcasts and such. . . .some there are a charge for.
There is nothing wrong with earning an honest living from a Ministry God calls you to serve.
TWI was deceptive with the donation implication, but even then--we know what a recommended donation means. It is a polite way of saying ---FEE.
AND. . . VP was in ministry. . . .He stole that material put it together and filmed it. . . it was his to sell. . . sort of.
I don't think the charge was immoral. . . I think the class and the Way itself is. . . I think VP was. . . but the fee for the class?
Not at all.
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel.
In real churches people have choices--they can choose to join a discussion and buy the book(though in my experience Sunday school classes and their study guides are free), they can choose to take a class for money( again in my experience, the local Methodist church has a new members class for free), and if they choose not to do those things they are still members in good standing.
I'm not a church member but I choose to fund a youth group financially because a couple of my kids are in it, and I can afford to give. There are some kids involved who's parents can't or won't support the teen group's projects--but their kids are still welcome. We even arrange car pools.
TWI was not like that.
PS Does anyone remember in the nineties when a couple had to have 2 Way Mag subscriptions??? And bring them to fellowship on mag sharing night? Blatant money grab.
Socks, I can think of no better example of what you describe than George Muller, who never, ever asked for money.
Muller changed lives all over the planet by speaking for God and doing charitable things for people. Â He liberated and rescued tens of thousands of orphan children's lives from prison, the streets, and from terrible flop house warehouses. Â His work with orphans lives on to this day changing hundreds of thousands of children's lives, giving them a christian upbringing, education, and a semblance of normal life. Â
Muller also refused the salary from his first pastorship at his first church because he felt it could lead to members giving out of duty rather than giving out of desire, something which he continued in his whole life. Â He also started a help organization that distributed free bibles, and which aided missionaries and christian schools without ever drawing salary form government or church to fund these operations, but were sustained entirely upon unsolicited donation. Â He traveled around the world preaching, retiring to his home church in his later years, teaching and helping there till his death at age 93.
He is the example in recent time of what Socks is talking about. Â The House of Acts in Novato was another.
VPW claimed to have enlightened understanding that no one else had and that was vital and essential to a proper and correct understanding of God, life, the Bible and the things of God and life. If you didn't have that teaching you couldn't lead a true abundant life "in Christ".
I would now say it's immoral to charge another person for it. If the values are placed correctly there's no other conclusion to arrive at.
I agree wholeheartedly...
VP was claiming that he knew God's word like nobody since the 1st century...and he's charging money for it!...
what's worse?...him pulling this con or us falling for it?
...and you're right, how could anyone charge money for the truth of God as it has not been known since the 1st century?...immoral is the correct term...
I find the impartation of spiritual knowledge and the necessary task of generating an income to be somewhat incompatible...a modest income to pastor a church?...fine. but a pyramid scheme that makes you rich?... <_< It doesn't pass the smell test.
VP was an opprotunist and salesman who stole other people's stuff and made a fortune palming it off in God's name...
...and EVERYTHING Wierwille did was designed to make money. He could have charged for his class and then let it slide...he could have lived quite comfortably...but no...
Think about it...what was the first assignment and collateral reading in the pfal class?...the "Christians should be proposterous" booklet...the one that tells us to send Vic our tithe...remember? He was setting us up from the get go.
...and then came the other classes (that cost money)...and the advances and the roa...charged us $25 at the door and then made us work for free!...everything was about the money.
Vic was rolling in dough!...unethical, immoral, and unChristian...in my opinion.
I understand the need to recoup the cost of printing and shipping, etc.
But look at it realistically.
These cats are 55 million dollars ahead of the curve because of the plan that he set in motion!!!!
VP wasn't out to break even. He was out to make a killing.
Maybe he could have sold one of those classic cars or vintage motorcycles that he acquired with ABS if times were so tough. All that goobley goop about how WE should be willing to sacrificing everything to move the "Word". Oh, really? Hows about sacrificing an old Harley or Indian or Vincent (or two)? Didn't happen. He used the profits to live a lavish lifestyle, not cover the printing and logistics expenses. The guy surrounded himself with goons and thugs like some kind of Mafia Don. He knew full well his activities were shady.
Muller also refused the salary from his first pastorship at his first church because he felt it could lead to members giving out of duty rather than giving out of desire, something which he continued in his whole life.
True service can require a more difficult path be taken. Mueller's a great example BNI See. :)
The teaching of PFAL in the Way was promoted on certain clear premises:
It was knowledge that hadn't been known since the "First Century", the time when it was revealed and taught by those "holy men" of God who wrote and spoke it.
It was revealed with a condition - that if VPW would teach it, God would reveal His Word to him as it hadn't been known since the "First Century".
That others had pieces of it but VPW was the first and only to "put it all together".
That "rightly dividing" the holy spirit field was a keystone of vPW's teachiing ministry and the area where accuracy was essential to "walking in power" and abundance, as taught in PFAL.
That other churches and religions might mean well and do well but were idolaters and devilish if they believed Jesus Christ "was God", a topic where PFAL taught correctly and accurately.
That the greatest knowledge a person could have was of God's Word, and to understand it accurately required knowing what was in PFAL.
That the Way Ministry and PFAL was the only place that he know of in the world where God's Word was being taught as honestly and truthfully.
-
The only place to get what God has, the pure stuff, the real deal, accurately and with no bull - is through PFAL and VPW, the Way Ministry, "in this day and time".
I would think that if that were true God would have a better plan for delivery than insisting that you and I pay VPW 25.00 for it. No, 50.00. No, 75 dollars this year. No, a 100.00. Wait, it's 200.00. No, it's back to a hundred. "But it's not about the money, it's about how serious you are and if you're committed, you'll flash some cash".
And if it was true but the promise was subverted - that's like pis-ing in the wind. A really big wind.
Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple and wouldn't allow them to pass through.
My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations but you have made it a den of thieves.
The same might apply to the humiliating and degrading behavior of His "ministers" and the sufferig they impose on those who, needing His Word the most, have the least to give for it and yet are constantly squeezed and shaken down for what they do have.
God does ask for something - He asks for our hearts and in return brings us to the fold of eternal peace, with Him. It's "free" to us because Jesus Christ picked up the tab. The same guy who beat the crap out of the guys running the Bank of J-God, at the Temple.
True service can require a more difficult path be taken. Mueller's a great example BNI See. :)
The teaching of PFAL in the Way was promoted on certain clear premises:
It was knowledge that hadn't been known since the "First Century", the time when it was revealed and taught by those "holy men" of God who wrote and spoke it.
It was revealed with a condition - that if VPW would teach it, God would reveal His Word to him as it hadn't been known since the "First Century".
That others had pieces of it but VPW was the first and only to "put it all together".
That "rightly dividing" the holy spirit field was a keystone of vPW's teachiing ministry and the area where accuracy was essential to "walking in power" and abundance, as taught in PFAL.
That other churches and religions might mean well and do well but were idolaters and devilish if they believed Jesus Christ "was God", a topic where PFAL taught correctly and accurately.
That the greatest knowledge a person could have was of God's Word, and to understand it accurately required knowing what was in PFAL.
That the Way Ministry and PFAL was the only place that he know of in the world where God's Word was being taught as honestly and truthfully.
The only place to get what God has, the pure stuff, the real deal, accurately and with no bull - is through PFAL and VPW, the Way Ministry, "in this day and time".
I would think that if that were true God would have a better plan for delivery than insisting that you and I pay VPW 25.00 for it. No, 50.00. No, 75 dollars this year. No, a 100.00. Wait, it's 200.00. No, it's back to a hundred. "But it's not about the money, it's about how serious you are and if you're committed, you'll flash some cash".
And if it was true but the promise was subverted - that's like pis-ing in the wind. A really big wind.
Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple and wouldn't allow them to pass through.
My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations but you have made it a den of thieves.
The same might apply to the humiliating and degrading behavior of His "ministers" and the sufferig they impose on those who, needing His Word the most, have the least to give for it and yet are constantly squeezed and shaken down for what they do have.
God does ask for something - He asks for our hearts and in return brings us to the fold of eternal peace, with Him. It's "free" to us because Jesus Christ picked up the tab. The same guy who beat the crap out of the guys running the Bank of J-God, at the Temple.
I didn't get it for a long time. Now I do.
Hi Socks,
Happy Thanksgiving. . .
I often appreciate your perspective and now is no exception. For me, to speak of PFAL as anything closely related to Christianity is difficult as I believe it is apostasy, but in our Christian life, money is a reality.
That means. . . it is a reality with God. . . which is why Jesus spoke more about money than almost ANY other subject. BTW, He spoke nearly as much about hell as heaven. He spoke more about the tribulation we face here than ease. . . seems he screened more people out than He did let in :)
The problem is not with the charge for the class IMHO--it is the shake down after. . . it is the content of PFAL--it is what VP did with the money and his motivation in gaining so much wealth.
Is it immoral for Zondervan to charge for bibles? Is it immoral for ministers to earn a wage from the gospel? Was it immoral for the Apostles to be worth their wage and live off the people they were sent to minister to when Jesus Himself, sent them out. . . ? Does my friend who owns a Christian bookstore give away his cash register? Do those who run honest God serving ministries not draw a salary and care for their families?
"Money is an exact index to a man's true character. All through Scripture there is an intimate correlation between the development of a man's character and how he handles his money."
How VP handled money---what he did with it--how he treated people is telling. The man himself was immoral. We KNOW where VP laid up his treasure. We understand what kind of person he was. . . some of us more than others, but . . . .
The charge for the class. . . I don't think that itself was. . . . He was in ministry(If you can call it that) and earned his living, in part, from that class.
It is not the reasonable charge for something. . . .it's not. . . . it is what we DO with our money. One could argue that money is actually part of our worship of God. Yep, I do believe that. What we put FIRST and FOREMOST in our lives will be evidenced in our giving. It is required of us to give. . . What we DO with money is also a good barometer of our faith and trust in God. John Wesley is a great example of this. He gained riches during his life. . . but never enjoyed the trappings of wealth. He lived on 30 pounds a year, but eventually earned 1400. He spoke a great deal on Christians and money and like Mueller is interesting to read about. He understood a Christian's relationship with money.
Money itself is not evil. The charge for the class. . . not out of bounds. If VP had taken a small salary and lived a modest life. . . and used the rest to serve God's people or any poor or down trodden people. . . I don't think it would even be an issue. It is what he did with it. . . how he served himself. . . how he continued to take and take. . . from those unable to give. He took from those he should have been giving to.
I remember in POP that geer gave Wierwille credit for being afraid of selfishness. What a freakin understatement that goes strait past understating and into the category of bald faced lie.
Gee, except for keeping all the glory to be had, the abuse of women and the men he crushed in the act of abusing women, the refusal to except just reproof and then putting down the multitude of messengers he was pretty close to altruistic.....huh?
Ah, but Juff, he did donate the FAMILY FARM to TWI.
Whatever that was worth.
But then he continued to live in it and enjoy it for the rest of his life. Like having your cake and eating it. Having your crop and it continuing to grow indefinitely. More reliable than farming, with the vagaries of weather and blight.
Wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of scheme whereby the farm (belonging to a charity) paid lower or no taxes on the land, than it did privately owned. Maybe the accountants among us can comment on that? Would he also get some sort of tax relief on personal taxes paid, if he gave away something of large value to a charity?
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Oakspear
At some point, maybe the 90's, we weren't supposed to get a signature on a green card unless it was accompanied by the full "donation".
In the mid-90's, when I believe the "donation" was 40 or 50 dollars, I would temporarily hire people to put flyers in doors at something like 5 cents apiece, when they got 1000 flyers done, the $50 went to cover the class.
In my observation, it was pretty easy to find people who wanted to take PFAL back in the 70's and early 80's, and a lot of them stuck around. It became more and more difficult in the early 90's. And the ones who did take PFAL hardly ever stayed with it. It became even more difficult to recruit during the Way of Abundance & Power days.
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cheranne
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Most Christian denominations offer FREE education classes for introducing the faith to new people(catechism). There are ecumenical DVD's/books such as Nicky Gumbel's Alpha/Questions of Life(supplemented with A Life Worth Living, Challenging Lifestyles, 7 Searching Issues, Heart of Revival, and Jermy Jennings Dynamic Prayer in the Local Church); Rob Weber/Andy Langford/Mark Ralls 3 part series Beginings; Michael Green-Reality; Christian Believer-Knowing God with heart and mind by Ellsworth Kalas; Powersurge by Michael Foss; and Rick Warren-Purpose Driven Life/Thomas Holliday-Foundations in the Christian Faith. In addition, there is Crossways/Divine Drama, and the new ELCA/Augsburg Fortress Book of Faith iniative. The host church pays for the material(no cost to the student) with free meal/refreshments and free childcare/baby-sitting. TWI and the offshoots are more concerned about money than really and truly helping others(fear of bankruptcy and leaders becoming homeless).
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now I see
Tzaia, thanks for starting a new thread, I feel this topic begs discussion too.
Twi needed a way to fleece the newcomers, why not charge $200 for this class especially since at least half of the people would be gone within the year. The excuses they used for charging for a class on the bible were foundless especially since the class was put together as a marketing ploy filled with errors propounded as the gospell, and subsequently used as an arm for vp to controll and manipulate followers in the twi culture.
There was a lot of pressure 1975 when I first got involved to take the class, the personal benefit angle was highly pushed, donating money to newbies for their enrollment fees was discouraged, commitment was highly encouraged.
There's a quote from this thread on this same topic of money, people and christian ethics- http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...riends&st=0 that I felt nailed it on the head so much that I made it my signatory statement for a while, it was:
"No thanks...my friends don't charge me money for being my friend, my savior doesn't charge me money for being my Lord and God doesn't charge me money for being my God...If you want to charge me money for your "services"...fine...I'll consider you as I do any of my other bills, such as my electric bill, phone bill or rent...I'll pay you out of obligation for services rendered...
...but don't be surprised when I don't subscribe to your "business" and pay you nothing...you want to sell tapes and books and make a living out of it?...good for you...look elsewhere because I'm not buying stuff that God gives me for free..."
For me, that says it all.
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polar bear
See my post on the financial statement thread.
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WordWolf
To a degree,
I can see the sense in saying "people who paid SOMETHING will feel a personal stake in attending all sessions."
To a degree,
I can see the sense in recovering the costs of the textbooks.
However,
we were charged RETAIL for the textbooks, even at $40.
Those of you with a few more books who were charged $100 or $200 were
just shaken down for what money they could pry from you.
It was all about pfal as a money-making venue.
And the required reading?
"Christians Should Be Prosperous",
or Why I Should Give twi 10% of My Income.
In my area, there was considerable compassion- but not from HQ.
The rule was always "get them to sign up ASAP, and get their $40 ASAP."
There were plenty of people who would help new students who were broke.
One helped me-I didn't have a Bible of my own, and $40 was a LOT of
money in high school. They gave me a new Bible at Session 1, out of
their own pocket. (I returned the favor for students later. As they did,
I never said "Oh, and I'll be giving you a new Bible", I just did it.)
I know one person whose response to a virtual stranger was
"You want to take pfal but don't have the money? I will pay the entire
fee for you." And it wasn't out of personal motivation that I could find,
since, AFAIK, they never met again after the offer, nor did they seem
likely to.
The generosity and compassion were always LOCAL, and UNOFFICIAL.
The official story was always "get their money."
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mstar1
I also think that the fee was a setup to get people in the mode of shelling out their dollars from the very beginning.
At "graduation" of course you then had to subscribe to The Way Mag, Sunday Night Tapes and start paying for the Intermediate Class.
After that the infinite number of classes, advances, books you were expected to buy and volunteer to do the work for was bred in.... and o yea--dont forget to "abundantly share".
Looking back to my waydaze-Its amazing how many poverty level people who barely could survive were being fleeced by this mechanism in the name of God.
A very high percentage of the people I knew at the time who were getting involved were minimum wage workers with limited skills who were constantly in some state of transition. While looking for hope what they found was someone attempting to take what little that they had
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Twinky
Yes, I always hated that. Couldn't see why I had to pay. No church I'd ever heard of made one pay.
I took ages to come up with the money. I was really hesitant. It was only because the person who had witnessed to me and eventually got me to sign up was coming under huge pressure from others (probably interim Corps) to stop hanging around with me. He was on his WoW year and just nobody was signing up.
At the time I said, if it's a donation why do I have to pay? If it's a charge, call it so.
I was told the £25 (I think; varied between £25 and £50) was to cover the cost of books and materials. When I got the books, I thought, these couldn't possibly cost £25 to produce, how much mark-up is there on these?
Ha ha. Welcome to the world of obligation and double-speak. Had I known what was to come, I would have departed right after PFAL.
The Alpha course starts with a group meal, then a talk, then a discussion time. Anyone can talk about any thing. No charge for the evening. People are invited to contribute towards the cost of the group meal but it's not obligatory and no-one keeps a record.
This thread's made me think: what they were looking for was the "fleeceable" ones - who they could get putting their hands in their pockets right from the get-go.
And I ahve a suspicion that even at that stage, those who would not pay up were subject to some minor condemnation - not wanting to enjoy the greatness of God's Word.
Of course, right after (if not during) PFAL there was the "encouragement" to buy the Blue Book then the rest of the collaterals... and the subscriptions to the Way Mag etc
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socks
The most significant realization I came to was a simple one, that it's wrong to charge for distributing something that isn't yours. If the Bible's God's Word, then it's His. If the enlightenment to understand it comes through His opening it up to someone then the understanding is between God and that person and it's individual and personal. I can read the Bible or read it to someone and "teach" it but I'm acting as a representative so to speak, an "ambassador". I can share the enlightened understanding but it's not a commodity or a product. I can make it into a product but all I've done is repackage the package. Charge for the repackaging? Who's idea is that?
VPW claimed to have enlightened understanding that no one else had and that was vital and essential to a proper and correct understanding of God, life, the Bible and the things of God and life. If you didn't have that teaching you couldn't lead a true abundant life "in Christ".
I would now say it's immoral to charge another person for it. If the values are placed correctly there's no other conclusion to arrive at.
Compared to something of a lesser nature but similar - the reports that come up during catastrophe's like hurricanes or floods, where someone sells liter's of water for 4-5-10 dollars a pop when no water is available. People have to have water, it's essential. Water's normally relatively cheap, allowing for the container or the utility service costs and if it's doesn't have a fancy name on the label.
Profiting from the misfortune of others in times of great need by gouging people is considered morally reprehensible, dastardly, a "crime" of sorts.
I see charging for "God's Word" no different and moreso, on a higher level. Selling what isn't mine with the understanding that it's exactly what God wants you to know - that's a no-no.
In fact, I'd go a step further and say that doing so, functioning that way, can open the door for and set an environment where all other manner of weakness and failing can flourish. Mixing God and "mammon" doesn't work according to Jesus. Business and industry has a place. God's Word isn't a business.
Luke 16:13-15 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
Today too people will cluck their tongues at the naivete of the idea that a teaching ministry shouldn't charge for it's teaching. How else will it thrive and survive? How else, indeed, is a very good question.
All of the pratical caveats - cost for printing, materials, time, etc. etc. can be handled if handled carefully and with the understanding that to profit from selling "God's Word" is off limits.
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mstar1
that one needs to be inlaid in gold somewhere, great point socks!--and it did set that environment and filtered through everything there--it was always about what can I get out of it--on a corporate level and sometimes on a personal level by the approach that was taught
The whole attitude was wrong--a 'product' a sale, a scam----if as you say you are only a representative--an ambassador--then do as instructed--freely ye have recieved-freely give----by sharing in that attitude without a price tag you'll be cultivating the same 'freely give' attitude in those that choose to believe you.
Churches all over the country/world flourish much more than TWI ever did or will without pricetags attached to the sermons and classes...
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excathedra
thank you
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Twinky
Yeah, I thought the "freely received, freely given [away]" bit, too. Though I realize Bibles are not given away except by the Gideons, and I accept that study books also need to be paid for. But not at a huge mark-up!
On the other hand: how much is the cost of the following? TLB recites:
TLB also says:
I posted above that the Alpha course that I did a few sessions of invited donations (and they were donations, non-obligatory) towards the cost of a meal. If you couldn't or didn't want to contribute that was fine.
I do think that if TWI had provided free meals and babysitting services, that also would have been a point of argument for some people here. They would say it was like those free meals that Moonies invited people to. So in that respect TWI was criticized if it did and criticized if it didn't.
(Come to think about it, as my PFAL was all day Sat (2 sessions) and all day Sun (2 sessions) they DID provide the meals and I can't recall being asked for a financial contribution.)
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geisha779
I don't see a problem charging for bible courses or Christian books. I love to go to the Christian bookstore. I order things from ministries. Seminary is not free--except Moody of course.
Some things are free---cd's podcasts and such. . . .some there are a charge for.
There is nothing wrong with earning an honest living from a Ministry God calls you to serve.
TWI was deceptive with the donation implication, but even then--we know what a recommended donation means. It is a polite way of saying ---FEE.
AND. . . VP was in ministry. . . .He stole that material put it together and filmed it. . . it was his to sell. . . sort of.
I don't think the charge was immoral. . . I think the class and the Way itself is. . . I think VP was. . . but the fee for the class?
Not at all.
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should earn their living by the gospel.
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Bramble
In real churches people have choices--they can choose to join a discussion and buy the book(though in my experience Sunday school classes and their study guides are free), they can choose to take a class for money( again in my experience, the local Methodist church has a new members class for free), and if they choose not to do those things they are still members in good standing.
I'm not a church member but I choose to fund a youth group financially because a couple of my kids are in it, and I can afford to give. There are some kids involved who's parents can't or won't support the teen group's projects--but their kids are still welcome. We even arrange car pools.
TWI was not like that.
PS Does anyone remember in the nineties when a couple had to have 2 Way Mag subscriptions??? And bring them to fellowship on mag sharing night? Blatant money grab.
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excathedra
okay, you can't charge for the love of christ. it's free
but you have to have it
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now I see
Socks, I can think of no better example of what you describe than George Muller, who never, ever asked for money.
Muller changed lives all over the planet by speaking for God and doing charitable things for people. Â He liberated and rescued tens of thousands of orphan children's lives from prison, the streets, and from terrible flop house warehouses. Â His work with orphans lives on to this day changing hundreds of thousands of children's lives, giving them a christian upbringing, education, and a semblance of normal life. Â
Muller also refused the salary from his first pastorship at his first church because he felt it could lead to members giving out of duty rather than giving out of desire, something which he continued in his whole life. Â He also started a help organization that distributed free bibles, and which aided missionaries and christian schools without ever drawing salary form government or church to fund these operations, but were sustained entirely upon unsolicited donation. Â He traveled around the world preaching, retiring to his home church in his later years, teaching and helping there till his death at age 93.
He is the example in recent time of what Socks is talking about. Â The House of Acts in Novato was another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Müller
http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary...or_Showing_God/
Socks, I love what you wrote, it is something we need to hear.
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Ham
so.. who is benefiting from a class with a fifty dollar price tag.. or 100, or 200..
I remember the 200 dollar rationale.. it'll "commit" them to it..
It is still too "cheap". In today's dollars.. I'm looking at something like 150 a credit for a legitimate university class.
so.. if it was "da verd like it hasn't been known since the first century".. isn't 200 too cheap?
it's the price of a one credit university class. Was it actually worth it?
I'd vote no.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I agree wholeheartedly...
VP was claiming that he knew God's word like nobody since the 1st century...and he's charging money for it!...
what's worse?...him pulling this con or us falling for it?
...and you're right, how could anyone charge money for the truth of God as it has not been known since the 1st century?...immoral is the correct term...
I find the impartation of spiritual knowledge and the necessary task of generating an income to be somewhat incompatible...a modest income to pastor a church?...fine. but a pyramid scheme that makes you rich?... <_< It doesn't pass the smell test.
VP was an opprotunist and salesman who stole other people's stuff and made a fortune palming it off in God's name...
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GrouchoMarxJr
...and EVERYTHING Wierwille did was designed to make money. He could have charged for his class and then let it slide...he could have lived quite comfortably...but no...
Think about it...what was the first assignment and collateral reading in the pfal class?...the "Christians should be proposterous" booklet...the one that tells us to send Vic our tithe...remember? He was setting us up from the get go.
...and then came the other classes (that cost money)...and the advances and the roa...charged us $25 at the door and then made us work for free!...everything was about the money.
Vic was rolling in dough!...unethical, immoral, and unChristian...in my opinion.
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waysider
I understand the need to recoup the cost of printing and shipping, etc.
But look at it realistically.
These cats are 55 million dollars ahead of the curve because of the plan that he set in motion!!!!
VP wasn't out to break even. He was out to make a killing.
Maybe he could have sold one of those classic cars or vintage motorcycles that he acquired with ABS if times were so tough. All that goobley goop about how WE should be willing to sacrificing everything to move the "Word". Oh, really? Hows about sacrificing an old Harley or Indian or Vincent (or two)? Didn't happen. He used the profits to live a lavish lifestyle, not cover the printing and logistics expenses. The guy surrounded himself with goons and thugs like some kind of Mafia Don. He knew full well his activities were shady.
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socks
True service can require a more difficult path be taken. Mueller's a great example BNI See. :)
The teaching of PFAL in the Way was promoted on certain clear premises:
It was knowledge that hadn't been known since the "First Century", the time when it was revealed and taught by those "holy men" of God who wrote and spoke it.
It was revealed with a condition - that if VPW would teach it, God would reveal His Word to him as it hadn't been known since the "First Century".
That others had pieces of it but VPW was the first and only to "put it all together".
That "rightly dividing" the holy spirit field was a keystone of vPW's teachiing ministry and the area where accuracy was essential to "walking in power" and abundance, as taught in PFAL.
That other churches and religions might mean well and do well but were idolaters and devilish if they believed Jesus Christ "was God", a topic where PFAL taught correctly and accurately.
That the greatest knowledge a person could have was of God's Word, and to understand it accurately required knowing what was in PFAL.
That the Way Ministry and PFAL was the only place that he know of in the world where God's Word was being taught as honestly and truthfully.
-
The only place to get what God has, the pure stuff, the real deal, accurately and with no bull - is through PFAL and VPW, the Way Ministry, "in this day and time".
I would think that if that were true God would have a better plan for delivery than insisting that you and I pay VPW 25.00 for it. No, 50.00. No, 75 dollars this year. No, a 100.00. Wait, it's 200.00. No, it's back to a hundred. "But it's not about the money, it's about how serious you are and if you're committed, you'll flash some cash".
And if it was true but the promise was subverted - that's like pis-ing in the wind. A really big wind.
Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple and wouldn't allow them to pass through.
My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations but you have made it a den of thieves.
The same might apply to the humiliating and degrading behavior of His "ministers" and the sufferig they impose on those who, needing His Word the most, have the least to give for it and yet are constantly squeezed and shaken down for what they do have.
God does ask for something - He asks for our hearts and in return brings us to the fold of eternal peace, with Him. It's "free" to us because Jesus Christ picked up the tab. The same guy who beat the crap out of the guys running the Bank of J-God, at the Temple.
I didn't get it for a long time. Now I do.
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geisha779
Hi Socks,
Happy Thanksgiving. . .
I often appreciate your perspective and now is no exception. For me, to speak of PFAL as anything closely related to Christianity is difficult as I believe it is apostasy, but in our Christian life, money is a reality.
That means. . . it is a reality with God. . . which is why Jesus spoke more about money than almost ANY other subject. BTW, He spoke nearly as much about hell as heaven. He spoke more about the tribulation we face here than ease. . . seems he screened more people out than He did let in :)
The problem is not with the charge for the class IMHO--it is the shake down after. . . it is the content of PFAL--it is what VP did with the money and his motivation in gaining so much wealth.
Is it immoral for Zondervan to charge for bibles? Is it immoral for ministers to earn a wage from the gospel? Was it immoral for the Apostles to be worth their wage and live off the people they were sent to minister to when Jesus Himself, sent them out. . . ? Does my friend who owns a Christian bookstore give away his cash register? Do those who run honest God serving ministries not draw a salary and care for their families?
"Money is an exact index to a man's true character. All through Scripture there is an intimate correlation between the development of a man's character and how he handles his money."
How VP handled money---what he did with it--how he treated people is telling. The man himself was immoral. We KNOW where VP laid up his treasure. We understand what kind of person he was. . . some of us more than others, but . . . .
The charge for the class. . . I don't think that itself was. . . . He was in ministry(If you can call it that) and earned his living, in part, from that class.
It is not the reasonable charge for something. . . .it's not. . . . it is what we DO with our money. One could argue that money is actually part of our worship of God. Yep, I do believe that. What we put FIRST and FOREMOST in our lives will be evidenced in our giving. It is required of us to give. . . What we DO with money is also a good barometer of our faith and trust in God. John Wesley is a great example of this. He gained riches during his life. . . but never enjoyed the trappings of wealth. He lived on 30 pounds a year, but eventually earned 1400. He spoke a great deal on Christians and money and like Mueller is interesting to read about. He understood a Christian's relationship with money.
Money itself is not evil. The charge for the class. . . not out of bounds. If VP had taken a small salary and lived a modest life. . . and used the rest to serve God's people or any poor or down trodden people. . . I don't think it would even be an issue. It is what he did with it. . . how he served himself. . . how he continued to take and take. . . from those unable to give. He took from those he should have been giving to.
He made merchandise of us.
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JeffSjo
I remember in POP that geer gave Wierwille credit for being afraid of selfishness. What a freakin understatement that goes strait past understating and into the category of bald faced lie.
Gee, except for keeping all the glory to be had, the abuse of women and the men he crushed in the act of abusing women, the refusal to except just reproof and then putting down the multitude of messengers he was pretty close to altruistic.....huh?
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Twinky
Ah, but Juff, he did donate the FAMILY FARM to TWI.
Whatever that was worth.
But then he continued to live in it and enjoy it for the rest of his life. Like having your cake and eating it. Having your crop and it continuing to grow indefinitely. More reliable than farming, with the vagaries of weather and blight.
Wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of scheme whereby the farm (belonging to a charity) paid lower or no taxes on the land, than it did privately owned. Maybe the accountants among us can comment on that? Would he also get some sort of tax relief on personal taxes paid, if he gave away something of large value to a charity?
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