How busy can they be at HQ? Under V.P. I think we were somewhere around 300,000, and it dropped to 100,000 under LCM (I'm guessing). Last I heard, TWI was down to about 4,000 nationwide.
I heard about 3000 in the U.S. And that was a few years ago. No doubt smaller now. There's more way followers in one country in Africa, the Democratic Republic of Congo, than in the entire US. And HQ has way more staff, plus all the field staff, than the DRC does. $$$$$$
For this same reason she keeps a guard dog named Sam. He is an attack trained, Chocolate Lab. He stays at home with her and travels with her to work to be dropped off at the kennel behind the Wierwille home. They chose a Chocolate Lab because they look friendly and there is no stereotype associated with them as opposed to a German Shepherd. Chocolate Labs protect. So if he is around and feels his territory to be invaded he will attack. Make a move towards Rozilla when he is around and he will attack.
I could have worded this more clearly. An attack dog will attack on command. Her dog is not like that but is VERY aggressive when it comes to guarding whatever he is trained to guard. In this case Rosie and her home.
I could have worded this more clearly. An attack dog will attack on command. Her dog is not like that but is VERY aggressive when it comes to guarding whatever he is trained to guard. In this case Rosie and her home.
Perhaps . . . we decorate various objects around grounds with cotton balls . . . or marshmallows . . . such as tree stumps and fence posts . . . it will throw the dog off . . . may need to add some kind of Rosie scent . . .
. . . then someone can run in and save that helpless football . . .
Perhaps . . . we decorate various objects around grounds with cotton balls . . . or marshmallows . . . such as tree stumps and fence posts . . . it will throw the dog off . . . may need to add some kind of Rosie scent . . .
. . . then someone can run in and save that helpless football . . .
ROFL! and sell that sucker on e-Bay. With Terry Bradshaw's signature should be worth around $3 or so!
I could have worded this more clearly. An attack dog will attack on command. Her dog is not like that but is VERY aggressive when it comes to guarding whatever he is trained to guard. In this case Rosie and her home.
Oh, I get it now. Our lab barks at stuff but he doesn't attack.
BA, the most TWI had as grads of PFAL worldwide was !00 thousand during the 70's and most ROA ever had was around 40k. btw, in my Dennis the meance voice"Hello Mister Linder"
For this same reason she keeps a guard dog named Sam. He is an attack trained, Chocolate Lab. He stays at home with her and travels with her to work to be dropped off at the kennel behind the Wierwille home. They chose a Chocolate Lab because they look friendly and there is no stereotype associated with them as opposed to a German Shepherd. Chocolate Labs protect. So if he is around and feels his territory to be invaded he will attack. Make a move towards Rozilla when he is around and he will attack.
Here we are shopping for a chocolate lab and you just ruined it for me!!!! dang it. Dang Rozilla! this is serious.
For this same reason she keeps a guard dog named Sam. He is an attack trained, Chocolate Lab. He stays at home with her and travels with her to work to be dropped off at the kennel behind the Wierwille home. They chose a Chocolate Lab because they look friendly and there is no stereotype associated with them as opposed to a German Shepherd. Chocolate Labs protect. So if he is around and feels his territory to be invaded he will attack. Make a move towards Rozilla when he is around and he will attack.
Otherwise, I am not real sure what the fascination is. Perhaps they are fishing for something to fire up a lawsuit with? Something to endeavor to shutdown the bane of their existence? It would be funny for them to start a lawsuit though....since they would no doubt have to endure cross examination, maybe have their hidden secrets subpoenaed to the light of day? Can't really sue when you have that many skeletons in your closet.
d@mn. well if you're on a roll f'ing up so many other people's lives, why not a dog's too? i feel sorry for the dog.
That's a lot of Holy Spirit doves, Arrow. Where'd you get the 300K?
I could be wrong, but I thought I heard LCM say that during our graduating Corps days in 1983. Then again, maybe I drreamt the whole thing. He was talking worldwide. Ah, maybe he even said 100,000 but I thought I heard 300,000.
BA, the most TWI had as grads of PFAL worldwide was !00 thousand during the 70's and most ROA ever had was around 40k. btw, in my Dennis the meance voice"Hello Mister Linder"
Okay...never mind then. I can't remember my point anymore anyway, if there ever was one.
No biggie, BA. 300,000 caught my eye. I'd agree that a third of that is probably more likely, but who's counting? :)
So much has been written about the 60's, and that entire era (which is probably more "50's" in transition in the first half of the decade - but that's another topic).
My personal theories on the growth of the Way from a membership perspective are pretty simple, I know there are many different "social movement" theories, all of them with some merit and primary amongst the religious - Christians - would be that there was a "movement" of God, the Holy Spirit, that streamed through the world around that decade (and still does one could say, or always did and just picked up speed or something or other). Such matters can be difficult to know or as one of the Pope's said a few years ago "It is not an easy thing to know the mind of God". Blasphemy to some, but really not all that off base when considered "from the ground" where the troops assemble and move. We can feel the breezes though the treeses but don't always see the rain coming till we're wet, y'know?
A factor to consider is that today a majority of all those who would refer to "The Way International" as something they participate/d in began their particpation in the 70's and 80's over a period of about 20 years or so.
VPW finished the final filming of PFAL that most of those people attended in 1967, capturing the class series he'd done live before that. He died in 1985. So over a period of about 18 years under his direction The Way became what it was that's continued on to be what it is today.
A head count will never be 100% accurate because The Way never published formal numbers. For a group that said they had no "members" though they had pretty clear ideas about "faithful followers" - grad of PFAL, regular tithing and regular attendance at a local fellowship as well as acceptance of the Way's fundamental, "foundational" teachings.
That works for awhile but as soon as the substance of those components changed and were redefined, (something everyone always swore would never happen so of course it did) "faithful follower" became a term that really meant something else - faithful to following what The Way International held forth at the moment, that year or that month or that day. A faithful follower in 1972 would hardly qualify as a member-non-member in 1997, unless they'd adjusted according to the changing doctrine and minimum qualifications for member-non-member status over time. Faithful Follower of the Way Nash is accurate as you can't follow faithfully if you're not current on the basic criteria and if it changes. It's essential to stay tuned....etc. etc.
A total count of members (if it quacks like a duck it's a duck) probably amounted more to a general body count as time went on. Today I'm sure they don't count me as some kind of a "doesn't write anymore but may still be considering his options follower" of The Way or anything else they have. I'm off the grid as they say. But I'd suspect they round those numbers up or down pretty broadly even today, much as they always have (and have had to, following this train of thought - choo choo).
Which really does relate to the topic of any monitoring of this site they may do. Over the years the number of Used-to-be-in-but-now-not-so-much non-Way affiliated internet sites and entities has increased, even as the number of members in The Way has decreased and those who leave begin other endeavors. I guess it's good to know where everyone went or something. I'm just guessing, I really wouldn't imagine it was a very useful use of time unless there was an interest in seeing what everyone was now doing. Wouldn't amount to much though from an internal standpoint, I'd think.
That elusive number, 100,000 grads of the pfal class, is like nailing jello to the way tree. Even from a personal vantage point, I noticed that some grads totally dropped out of sight immediately after sitting thru the class.
Twi spent more time looking at roa numbers. In the early 80s, the numbers kept swelling and the challenges food warehousing, freezer storage, tent capacity, seating, etc. kept the roa department on their toes. The 1984 roa was the largest on record -- near 24,000.
If they really wanted to keep up numbers, they could include all those in known splinter groups, like CFFM, CES/STFI, and all those headed up by ex Region coordinators. Some of them stick more or less to Way doctrine and practices, don't they? At least, that's where their roots are. Maybe even include groups overseas, too.
Some of those organizations would definitely object, though, thinking they had moved on and away from Way doctrine.
(Hey, I'm just trying to think how TWI might spin it.)
I really wouldn't imagine it was a very useful use of time unless there was an interest in seeing what everyone was now doing. Wouldn't amount to much though from an internal standpoint, I'd think.
Hmm, call ur marketing research. Much like a company that watches trends. Know what the competition is saying or doing to woo customers away. That way one can anesthesize their customers from outside sources and beat the competition even before they strike.
What TWI doesn't realize is that it isn't splinter groups sapping their numbers, it's their own ineffectiveness. But hey WayGB keep reading anyway...it's something to do to make yourself feel useful. You might want to consider getting a real job, though, before it's too late.
A head count will never be 100% accurate because The Way never published formal numbers. For a group that said they had no "members" though they had pretty clear ideas about "faithful followers" - grad of PFAL, regular tithing and regular attendance at a local fellowship as well as acceptance of the Way's fundamental, "foundational" teachings.
As time has gone on this has been less and less clear. For the purposes of politics, especially in the US, (read for the intent of preserving J0hn Rupp's position), informal policies have been handed down to lessen the outward appearance of attrition.
For example, people are kept on rolls even when they have only attended 1 fellowship in a year or two, and don't financially contribute. This way the overall numbers can look higher, mostly to justify field people keeping a salaried position. All salaried field personnel know how to play this game to preserve their little income.
Another example, now approval is required from the Way of the USA to remove someone from the rolls. Why does this make any sense? Johnny Jumpup hasn't come to fellowship in 6 months. He's not "active". Where does the Way of the USA's opinion play into the facts there at all?
A total count of members (if it quacks like a duck it's a duck) probably amounted more to a general body count as time went on. Today I'm sure they don't count me as some kind of a "doesn't write anymore but may still be considering his options follower" of The Way or anything else they have. I'm off the grid as they say. But I'd suspect they round those numbers up or down pretty broadly even today, much as they always have (and have had to, following this train of thought - choo choo).
After Rosalie worked so hard to push through her Vision and Direction plan, they started getting monthly reports on numbers from the Region coordinators, which the Reg. co's got from their limb and branch puppets. These monthly reports are very detailed, including numbers of faithful standing grads, people who signed up for the class but haven't taken it yet, people who moved out of the region, people who died, people who left the miniistry, people who stopped attending fellowship before they even took the class.... My point is, it was very detailed, and they know exactly who poops, when they poop, size, shape, color... (Aren't you glad you got out when you did?!)
I think these reports were only done in the USA. At first they wanted these reports to get a handle on how many people they had, and why people left when they left. But then they just kept them coming in, and I even asked Rupp why--when he was a director--and he didn't know why they were still receiving them. So even the directors are puppets, you know. That was a few years ago, so I don't know if they still have these reports or not. Maybe by my asking, he looked into it and they stopped. But then again, I doubt anything could be initiated successfully from the bottom up in that twisted org. Everything is top down.
Noteworthy: whenever anyone left the ministry, the region coord. had to write at least one paragraph to explain what happened. Of course, it was always explained with a TWI spin on the details: blinded by devil spirits, did not respond to confrontation, loves money and family more than God...blah, blah, blah.
I don't know how they account for the international followers, but I'm sure they have some sort of idea, even if it's not as accurate or detailed as the US reports.
After Rosalie worked so hard to push through her Vision and Direction plan, they started getting monthly reports on numbers from the Region coordinators, which the Reg. co's got from their limb and branch puppets. These monthly reports are very detailed, including numbers of faithful standing grads, people who signed up for the class but haven't taken it yet, people who moved out of the region, people who died, people who left the miniistry, people who stopped attending fellowship before they even took the class.... My point is, it was very detailed, and they know exactly who poops, when they poop, size, shape, color... (Aren't you glad you got out when you did?!)
V & D is pretty much a sales quota for field personnel.
I think these reports were only done in the USA. At first they wanted these reports to get a handle on how many people they had, and why people left when they left. But then they just kept them coming in, and I even asked Rupp why--when he was a director--and he didn't know why they were still receiving them. So even the directors are puppets, you know. That was a few years ago, so I don't know if they still have these reports or not. Maybe by my asking, he looked into it and they stopped. But then again, I doubt anything could be initiated successfully from the bottom up in that twisted org. Everything is top down.
Did you ever consider that Rupp might be ..... gasp ..... lying?
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skyrider
Hey, WayGB............tell Rosalie that her 'prez skills' are not working. Two long-standing couples have recently left twi claiming that it's spiritually dead.....and were SO TIRED OF TWI CENSORSHIP
now I see
The revelvancy that "they're watching" is as important to me as knowing how many times my neighbor's cat used his litterbox today... Innies who are looking outside the hallowed gates of twi, reading
rascal
Twinky, that definitely would be the normal course for a genuine Christian, a person filled with the spirit of God....It would take honest Godly repentance and sorrow...to be moved with compassion...
OldSkool
They are the Keystone Cult.
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Broken Arrow
Good one!
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OldSkool
Thanks!
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outandabout
A lab that attacks????? WOW that's a new one.
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What About It
I heard about 3000 in the U.S. And that was a few years ago. No doubt smaller now. There's more way followers in one country in Africa, the Democratic Republic of Congo, than in the entire US. And HQ has way more staff, plus all the field staff, than the DRC does. $$$$$$
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OldSkool
Nope, a guard dog.
http://www.trainingyourlab.com/guard-dog-training-will-make-your-dog-courageous
I could have worded this more clearly. An attack dog will attack on command. Her dog is not like that but is VERY aggressive when it comes to guarding whatever he is trained to guard. In this case Rosie and her home.
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Bolshevik
Perhaps . . . we decorate various objects around grounds with cotton balls . . . or marshmallows . . . such as tree stumps and fence posts . . . it will throw the dog off . . . may need to add some kind of Rosie scent . . .
. . . then someone can run in and save that helpless football . . .
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OldSkool
ROFL! and sell that sucker on e-Bay. With Terry Bradshaw's signature should be worth around $3 or so!
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outandabout
Oh, I get it now. Our lab barks at stuff but he doesn't attack.
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socks
That's a lot of Holy Spirit doves, Arrow. Where'd you get the 300K?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
BA, the most TWI had as grads of PFAL worldwide was !00 thousand during the 70's and most ROA ever had was around 40k. btw, in my Dennis the meance voice"Hello Mister Linder"
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bliss
Here we are shopping for a chocolate lab and you just ruined it for me!!!! dang it. Dang Rozilla! this is serious.
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chockfull
d@mn. well if you're on a roll f'ing up so many other people's lives, why not a dog's too? i feel sorry for the dog.
Let's start a prayer vigil for Sam...
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Twinky
Does Rosalie having a large animal as a pet mean that the policy against having large animals as pets has now been repealed?
Or is this yet another of those "do as I say, not do as I do" moments?
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Ham
Hmm. All I can say is.. don't step on the grass, Sam..
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Broken Arrow
I could be wrong, but I thought I heard LCM say that during our graduating Corps days in 1983. Then again, maybe I drreamt the whole thing. He was talking worldwide. Ah, maybe he even said 100,000 but I thought I heard 300,000.
Okay...never mind then. I can't remember my point anymore anyway, if there ever was one.
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socks
No biggie, BA. 300,000 caught my eye. I'd agree that a third of that is probably more likely, but who's counting? :)
So much has been written about the 60's, and that entire era (which is probably more "50's" in transition in the first half of the decade - but that's another topic).
My personal theories on the growth of the Way from a membership perspective are pretty simple, I know there are many different "social movement" theories, all of them with some merit and primary amongst the religious - Christians - would be that there was a "movement" of God, the Holy Spirit, that streamed through the world around that decade (and still does one could say, or always did and just picked up speed or something or other). Such matters can be difficult to know or as one of the Pope's said a few years ago "It is not an easy thing to know the mind of God". Blasphemy to some, but really not all that off base when considered "from the ground" where the troops assemble and move. We can feel the breezes though the treeses but don't always see the rain coming till we're wet, y'know?
A factor to consider is that today a majority of all those who would refer to "The Way International" as something they participate/d in began their particpation in the 70's and 80's over a period of about 20 years or so.
VPW finished the final filming of PFAL that most of those people attended in 1967, capturing the class series he'd done live before that. He died in 1985. So over a period of about 18 years under his direction The Way became what it was that's continued on to be what it is today.
A head count will never be 100% accurate because The Way never published formal numbers. For a group that said they had no "members" though they had pretty clear ideas about "faithful followers" - grad of PFAL, regular tithing and regular attendance at a local fellowship as well as acceptance of the Way's fundamental, "foundational" teachings.
That works for awhile but as soon as the substance of those components changed and were redefined, (something everyone always swore would never happen so of course it did) "faithful follower" became a term that really meant something else - faithful to following what The Way International held forth at the moment, that year or that month or that day. A faithful follower in 1972 would hardly qualify as a member-non-member in 1997, unless they'd adjusted according to the changing doctrine and minimum qualifications for member-non-member status over time. Faithful Follower of the Way Nash is accurate as you can't follow faithfully if you're not current on the basic criteria and if it changes. It's essential to stay tuned....etc. etc.
A total count of members (if it quacks like a duck it's a duck) probably amounted more to a general body count as time went on. Today I'm sure they don't count me as some kind of a "doesn't write anymore but may still be considering his options follower" of The Way or anything else they have. I'm off the grid as they say. But I'd suspect they round those numbers up or down pretty broadly even today, much as they always have (and have had to, following this train of thought - choo choo).
Which really does relate to the topic of any monitoring of this site they may do. Over the years the number of Used-to-be-in-but-now-not-so-much non-Way affiliated internet sites and entities has increased, even as the number of members in The Way has decreased and those who leave begin other endeavors. I guess it's good to know where everyone went or something. I'm just guessing, I really wouldn't imagine it was a very useful use of time unless there was an interest in seeing what everyone was now doing. Wouldn't amount to much though from an internal standpoint, I'd think.
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skyrider
That elusive number, 100,000 grads of the pfal class, is like nailing jello to the way tree. Even from a personal vantage point, I noticed that some grads totally dropped out of sight immediately after sitting thru the class.
Twi spent more time looking at roa numbers. In the early 80s, the numbers kept swelling and the challenges food warehousing, freezer storage, tent capacity, seating, etc. kept the roa department on their toes. The 1984 roa was the largest on record -- near 24,000.
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Twinky
If they really wanted to keep up numbers, they could include all those in known splinter groups, like CFFM, CES/STFI, and all those headed up by ex Region coordinators. Some of them stick more or less to Way doctrine and practices, don't they? At least, that's where their roots are. Maybe even include groups overseas, too.
Some of those organizations would definitely object, though, thinking they had moved on and away from Way doctrine.
(Hey, I'm just trying to think how TWI might spin it.)
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Broken Arrow
Hmm, call ur marketing research. Much like a company that watches trends. Know what the competition is saying or doing to woo customers away. That way one can anesthesize their customers from outside sources and beat the competition even before they strike.
What TWI doesn't realize is that it isn't splinter groups sapping their numbers, it's their own ineffectiveness. But hey WayGB keep reading anyway...it's something to do to make yourself feel useful. You might want to consider getting a real job, though, before it's too late.
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chockfull
As time has gone on this has been less and less clear. For the purposes of politics, especially in the US, (read for the intent of preserving J0hn Rupp's position), informal policies have been handed down to lessen the outward appearance of attrition.
For example, people are kept on rolls even when they have only attended 1 fellowship in a year or two, and don't financially contribute. This way the overall numbers can look higher, mostly to justify field people keeping a salaried position. All salaried field personnel know how to play this game to preserve their little income.
Another example, now approval is required from the Way of the USA to remove someone from the rolls. Why does this make any sense? Johnny Jumpup hasn't come to fellowship in 6 months. He's not "active". Where does the Way of the USA's opinion play into the facts there at all?
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What About It
After Rosalie worked so hard to push through her Vision and Direction plan, they started getting monthly reports on numbers from the Region coordinators, which the Reg. co's got from their limb and branch puppets. These monthly reports are very detailed, including numbers of faithful standing grads, people who signed up for the class but haven't taken it yet, people who moved out of the region, people who died, people who left the miniistry, people who stopped attending fellowship before they even took the class.... My point is, it was very detailed, and they know exactly who poops, when they poop, size, shape, color... (Aren't you glad you got out when you did?!)
I think these reports were only done in the USA. At first they wanted these reports to get a handle on how many people they had, and why people left when they left. But then they just kept them coming in, and I even asked Rupp why--when he was a director--and he didn't know why they were still receiving them. So even the directors are puppets, you know. That was a few years ago, so I don't know if they still have these reports or not. Maybe by my asking, he looked into it and they stopped. But then again, I doubt anything could be initiated successfully from the bottom up in that twisted org. Everything is top down.
Noteworthy: whenever anyone left the ministry, the region coord. had to write at least one paragraph to explain what happened. Of course, it was always explained with a TWI spin on the details: blinded by devil spirits, did not respond to confrontation, loves money and family more than God...blah, blah, blah.
I don't know how they account for the international followers, but I'm sure they have some sort of idea, even if it's not as accurate or detailed as the US reports.
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chockfull
V & D is pretty much a sales quota for field personnel.
Did you ever consider that Rupp might be ..... gasp ..... lying?
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OldSkool
Well, that all depends...were his lips moving?
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