I wonder what covenant we took at "the initiation into the inner sanctum". Was it the covenant of horseradish? Maybe it was to remind us that The Way will forever leave a bad taste in our mouths.....(Give me a little time, I'll find a scripture to back it.)
Don't know if you guys saw this on the Inner Sanctum thread, but I figured it was worth posting one more time.
Beware what people palm off as humor. Good jokes are good jokes because the contain some truth.
The Arabs have a proverb: "If your going to speak the truth, be sure one foot's in the stirrup." There are truth's people can't accept, so we have humor. It's a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down type of thing. Why do you think, in the western, when the hero got insulted, he often retorted: "Smile when you say that."
Or when somebody tells you something offensive, they often retreat behind: "I was only joking."
How does this relate to the thread? Let's say said ceremony was real and palmed off as a joke. What would it be for? Has anyone inquired into what the Indian turip was used for in black magic?
Surprisingly, the Indian turnip is poisonous (source). According one site, its often used to induce sterility and to draw plant spirits (source). Another site says it was often used to prevent conception (source). Another says its herbal birth control and should be ingested by both genders (source).
The covenant of salt has its foundation in ancient history. Its a long standing custom of man, for the most part. But, is it dictated by scripture? Here are the only three occasions I know of that it is mentioned in the Bible:
II Chronicles 13:5 (NIV)
Don’t you know that the LORD, the God of Israel, has given the kingship of Israel to David and his descendants forever by a covenant of salt?
Numbers 18:19 (NIV)
19 Whatever is set aside from the holy offerings the Israelites present to the LORD I give to you and your sons and daughters as your regular share. It is an everlasting covenant of salt before the LORD for both you and your offspring."
Leviticus 2:13 (NIV)
Season all your grain offerings with salt. Do not leave the salt of the covenant of your God out of your grain offerings; add salt to all your offering
-------------
These scriptures are directed at specific individuals and specific groups.
There is nothing in the scriptures that indicate it is to be practiced in a wide spread sense. In fact, there is nothing to indicate the specifics of how it should be performed. It's simply a tradition of man... ageless, widespread, and documented in the Bible, perhaps, but not a ritual prescribed by scripture.
Then of course, there's the verse somewhere where Moses says to Aaron, "Would you please pass the salt?"
But I have to agree with Johniam (!) on this - that water baptism as the evidence of commitment was laughed at - but the little dish of salt as evidence of commitment - was applauded.
Other symbols - like wedding rings as evidence of commitment - weren't commented on.
First, however, TWI had taught about the seriousness of breaking the salt covenant. It went through a lot of Corps in rez teaching. So it became a chain to enslave. Or maybe it was a "ring through the nose" so that Corps could be led wherever the Prez wanted.
I was worried about "breaking the covenant" when I first got dropped. Then I began to think differently - in my heart I was salted to serve God - not TWI.
I still have a little dish of salt, a gift from my elder Corps, when I graduated.
To me, the salt covenant represented the willing commitment of two individuals, or groups of individuals,.....before the throne of God.
The scriptures and the context of today's reality was bottom-line principle on which to stand. And, in this case, twi could NOT order edicts to the corps or advanced class grads THAT THEY WOULD NOT LIVE BY. Twi could NOT sit on their hands, refusing to be "servant of all"......and EXPECT the corps to slave for them (twi). Absurd.
Before God, the TWO commit.
Obviously, twi's trustees acted as if THEY administered the "contract".....rather than, being subjected to hold up THEIR END of the salted commitment.
Obviously, twi's trustees acted as if THEY administered the "contract".....rather than, being subjected to hold up THEIR END of the salted commitment.
That is the very thing that started the alarm bells some years ago before I left. How can it be a true commitment where only one party is holding the commitment? TWI is not committed to people in the way corps. They do not take care of the way corps. They use the way corps as long as they can and discard them when the corps person/couple no longer wants to do their bidding.
Or in the case of many other folks, they just drop them for little to nothing.
That is the very thing that started the alarm bells some years ago before I left. How can it be a true commitment where only one party is holding the commitment? TWI is not committed to people in the way corps. They do not take care of the way corps. They use the way corps as long as they can and discard them when the corps person/couple no longer wants to do their bidding.
Or in the case of many other folks, they just drop them for little to nothing.
Yeah....and alarm bells as the abuse intensifies.
1) Twi administers the salt covenant.....BEFORE GOD.
2) But to twi, that means.....you obey THEM.
3) Wierwille's lust, drunkenness, predation....YOU STILL MUST OBEY TWI.
4) Corps grads are on the hook to move EVERY THREE YEARS.
5) Wierwille dies of cancer.....trustees lie and say "he died of a broken heart."
6) Corps are supposed to swallow the lies, and silence any dissention.
7) Threat of mark & avoid......ON DISPLAY, EVERY CORPS MEETING.
8) Corps grads are to CONTINUE ALLEGIANCE.....as twi moves goal posts every year.
9) No debt, no mortgage, no career path that interfers with 4 twi mts/ week.
10) It doesn't matter how many decades you stand with twi....IT'S NOT ENOUGH.
11) Twi holds the microphone and can issue a character assassination any time they want.
12) At what point do you jump off this moving train??.......and roll away??
what I wonder is how they tried to induct those who never made the "agreement".. against their will.
You know. "You heard da word.. you ARE salted.."
pfal grad? Yes.. you are "salted". "da word like it has never, ever, ever ever been known.."
And....THAT has been the underlying mindset of twi since the '70s.
YOU heard the word....and now, YOU are responsible for 'that word.' If you walk away from it, then you'll have to answer (to God) for it. And yes.....this was pfal, int, adv class "salting."
The sprinkling started just after the food word was served.
Imagine being a corps grad?!?.........upper twi elites despise corps grads who walked away from the salted-serving-twi a lifetime AND the non-corps types despise the corps for meddling with their lives, etc.
Just seems like VERY FEW ever connect the dots back to wierwille/trustees.
Just seems like VERY FEW ever connect the dots back to wierwille/trustees.
there are many roads...the lead to Chicaaaago...
I still say what I realized from the get-go then - The Way wasn't my idea. I got involved to make a contribution, put forth my own ideas and goals that I felt were important to me and to throw them into the pot, become a part of a larger effort and more people, resources, etc. etc.
None of us need The Way or the Class or the books or the breezey wistful wind in the corn fields of Shelby County Ohio to do anything remotely resembling "Christiainity". Remove all of that and anything like it and you're still starting from the same place.
Anyyyyway - I answer to God for everything. I already answered to God for cutting ties with The Way. I got a raise and some time off for good behavior. As far as anything real in my life that was involved in that - and it had nothing to do with specific people and never would have - it's over. I don't despise anyone, if you were my friend then you are now. Doesn't matter to me if anyone feels differently back - that's their perrogative.
None of us need The Way or the Class or the books or the breezey wistful wind in the corn fields of Shelby County Ohio to do anything remotely resembling "Christiainity". Remove all of that and anything like it and you're still starting from the same place.
Anyyyyway - I answer to God for everything. I already answered to God for cutting ties with The Way. I got a raise and some time off for good behavior. As far as anything real in my life that was involved in that - and it had nothing to do with specific people and never would have - it's over. I don't despise anyone, if you were my friend then you are now. Doesn't matter to me if anyone feels differently back - that's their perrogative.
Socks.....you are a peacemaker. I like that and respect you for it.
Me?.......I come to GS to tell the other side and to help break the yoke of bondage. Here, at GS......that verse "he that is greatest among you shall be your servant" is quoted quite often. And, in context.....Jesus pulled NO PUNCHES in reproving the Pharisees.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous
"Security" at the Way was an odd kind of thing - it was known to me as "The Farm" when I first went there it felt completely safe, probably one of safest places really. The need to be on the alert was a result of the local community yokels joy riding down Wierwille Rd. and into the property. The Way activities never warranted that. You'd get a car full of townies ripping down the road or throwing s--t on the grounds, trashing it.
The business about people going by at night and shooting holes in the sign out on 29-
Shelby County in the dead of summer makes a bingo game look wild so I guess in the absence of anything worthwhile to do there was always trying to screw with the Wayfers to fall back on.
That kind of stuff might seem warranted by those of you who now have grievances against the Way but it's not. People get arrested for doing stuff like that, get shot or worse. But in New Knoxville it went on and the local police could turn a blind eye to it or flat out ignore it.
Imagine coming to New Knoxville, meaning no harm and having no grudges against anyone let alone people you've never met before and then having a bunch of local teenagers, kids about your own age, doing that kind of stuff. Growing up on a farm doesn't automatically make you a bad as s regardless how much beer you drink. For the most part..........nobody faced off over this stuff in the early years. And VPW was very clear that some of these people were meaner then snot so be VERY careful about walking into Adolf's on a Friday night and making a move to throw down if someone started in. And people there would do just that - make no mistake about it, lines were drawn and it was wise to keep the peace.
There were a few instances where there were....confrontations. For the most part though it was kept down, the large numbers of the people typically on the grounds kept the average joy riders nipping at the edges, in the dark, when they'd find an opportunity. Yelling and cursing, screaming at women if they were out.
That's bull-s--t, period. Today anywhere else - forget it. There'd be war - somebody'd wrap one of those cars around the people in it and dump it in Lock 2, if it's still there.
Or maybe just get the local "police" to do their job.
Many of you may not know this to factor it into your evaluations but the need for security then wasn't to jerk Corps around or control people or anything like that at all. It was to keep an eye out for these goofballs. And while you may think we were all brainwashed jerks it's a testimony to the intent of the people there at that time that no one ever gave those guys what they deserved for terrorizing people at The Way at that time.
What developed over the years was like some weird transmutation of a purpose that at it's basis had cause. Unfortunately there's always weirdo freaks who get the urge to harrass others, make fun of them, trash them and try to scare them.
What goes around comes around, in this life and the next IMO.You may avoid it coming but you will get it, going.
"Security" at the Way was an odd kind of thing - it was known to me as "The Farm" when I first went there it felt completely safe, probably one of safest places really. The need to be on the alert was a result of the local community yokels joy riding down Wierwille Rd. and into the property. The Way activities never warranted that. You'd get a car full of townies ripping down the road or throwing s--t on the grounds, trashing it.
The business about people going by at night and shooting holes in the sign out on 29-
Shelby County in the dead of summer makes a bingo game look wild so I guess in the absence of anything worthwhile to do there was always trying to screw with the Wayfers to fall back on.
That kind of stuff might seem warranted by those of you who now have grievances against the Way but it's not....
socks......you lost me there.
I have grievances against the Way, against wierwille.......BECAUSE HE AND TRUSTEES WERE DECEPTIVE AND MANIPULATIVE AND BETRAYED TWI FOLLOWERS AND THE CORPS.
In this thread, primarily, we've been discussing the bogus associate theology degree and the salt covenant. I contend that the whole concept of an "associate theology degree and an accredited christian college" was all a ruse......twi wasn't even in the ballpark of that description. The Emporia campus was a clone-factory to punch out as many J0hnnie T0wns3nds that it could.....in other words, dedicated class instructors. Not leaders! Not men of integrity! Not decision-makers. The corps was a follower-ship program.
My grievances against twi are many.....but bottom-line, a bait-and-switch operation. Twi baited willing volunteers with verses of scripture, baited us with veneer programs.....but inside, they were HYPOCRITES as depicted of the Pharisees in my last post.
I understand that you went thru "the system" and corps a few years before me and saw "the Farm" a few years before me. And, I sat in many meetings and sharings where Howard would talk about helping to build the BRC...or Mal & Jan would share about being led into sit by wierwille. All that stuff is small potatoes to what I'm spotlighting here. More along the lines...."it's not what enters a man that defiles him, but what comes out of the man" sorta thing. TWI became defiled because the HEARTS OF THE TRUSTEES was defiled.
If I were to highlight and talk about people like you, socks, and hundreds of others who were simple-hearted and pure.....I could attest to the goodness of God. There were many, many good-hearted folk in twi who had deep compassion in their hearts to serve others. I understand that. But the stumbling block was twi's upper leaders......same as in Jesus' day where the Pharisees lorded over the people.
And, that's why twi's salt covenant is a sordid sin pact.......they (twi) can wallow in sin, yet hold the advanced class grads and corps accountable to cherry-picked scriptures. For all their "First Century Church" jargon....they make it sound like the early believers walked in lockstep unity with a renewed mind. Egads! Doesn't anyone read the scriptures anymore and have an ounce of critical thinking? The early believers were as diverse and opinionated and unique as it gets.
So, socks.......my grievances are NOT with the little rules and regs that twi implemented to safeguard them from the townies. I can appreciate some of the "warm-fuzzies" of yester-year and all......but, geeze-louise, when the curtain is pulled back all I see is a bumbling, conniving "wizard" in purple pajamas. And, like Dorothy in that classic movie, MOST EVERYTHING I WAS SEARCHING FOR, I HAD ALL ALONG.
"Security" at the Way was an odd kind of thing - it was known to me as "The Farm" when I first went there it felt completely safe, probably one of safest places really. The need to be on the alert was a result of the local community yokels joy riding down Wierwille Rd. and into the property. The Way activities never warranted that. You'd get a car full of townies ripping down the road or throwing s--t on the grounds, trashing it.
Socks.
I agree with you: this is antisocial behavior.
However, there is a part of me that wonders if Saint Vic didn't create this situation.
We all know how he was with ministry women. Who's to say he didn't, at one time or the other, attempt to seed the entire female popultion of Shelby County?
That would make for a lot of people with grudges. And if one of them just happens to be the wife, sister, or daughter of the police cheif or mayor--well, so much for the police wanting to be involved.
I'm not trying to justify their behavior, just suggesting maybe they had reasons for it. Reasons similar to ours.
Your post made me think of that movie Footloose. . . . ever see it? :) Kevin Bacon moves to a small farm community and is disliked by the locals? What you are relating is one side of the story...if you spoke to those locals and their families it might sound a bit different. I can imagine it was disconcerting for them to have a bunch of kids(What did you all look like?) descending on a farm in their community. When were the Manson murders? What were the times like? Unfair of the locals maybe....but, in hindsight and as an adult you may be able to look at least a little bit .....from their perspective. I am sure they were not enamored of VP or what he was turning the family farm into.
The same thing happened here with Brotherhood of the Spirit....a similar group to the early days of TWI and MANY others from the late 1960's early 70's. They were written up in Look, not Life magazine. Amazing parallels. I remember the reactions to them. They were not welcome with open arms...but, I do understand the reaction. There were some bad things that happened to those sweet kids seeking to make a difference. Why did it visit our little town? Local kids did get sucked in and a few died.
I know many of the remnant now as an adult....their responses to the doctrine and vision of their leader and the group are varied, but they are, for the most part, great people. They went through a great deal of hardship though...being involved in a cult. Some of them will never wake up and I know of a few horrible things which have happened as a result. Really sad things. I know a father, who never really grieved for his young daughter who was killed in a riding accident. He almost took pleasure in her untimely death. As is evidenced by the celebration that followed.
Some of the changes wrought by movements during the 1960's and 1970's were good. People with vision standing for change. Power to the people brother, I am with you...even though I missed all the fun by a few years. Yet, just because something was our own little vision, and our motives were pure....it doesn't make what and who we stood with good by osmosis.....but, it was our youth and who we were and what we believed...so how we view it is always going to be from a personal and difficult perspective. I guess?
The same thing happened here with Brotherhood of the Spirit....a similar group to the early days of TWI and MANY others from the late 1960's early 70's. They were written up in Look, not Life magazine. Amazing parallels.
geisha.......interesting to think about all those commune groups popping up across the country from 1968-1973. On a quest to find God, to meditate, to isolate from society. Looking back, it is amazing to see all the parallels.
On the brotherhood link, this quote stands out....."There have also been many well-attended reunions and gatherings of former and current members where the issue of the community’s controversial legacy remains a major topic. Those who were part of the Brotherhood of the Spirit have gone on to become teachers, artists, health-care providers, millionaire executives, and at least one ordained Buddhist monk. Their views about their time spent in the community run the full gamut of human emotions and opinions."
My point is - "security" was only thought to be a need early on because of local harrassment - it wasn't a part of a "program" to manipulate those at the Way.
"However, there is a part of me that wonders if Saint Vic didn't create this situation."
No, not as I saw it or see it So-crates, but that's certainly going to come to mind now, later. Cause and effect, sure, there's going to be some there. And the effect on the local community had to be stressful - small farm town, buildup of activitiy. But no - then as now I live by the rule that we can be at peace and from a distance if need be to maintain that peace. Soon as that line is crossed we're on a different path. I'll move back but there's only so much room for that if it's just not working out.
VPW - the grudges weren't a result of that. I met some of these people over the years - they were just as-sholes, garden variety. Heard about something, knew about something, maybe. Acting on it - if the local community had wanted to address something they could have.
Geisha - thanks good insight. the local community was for the most part pretty patient and tried to maintain a peaceful relationship from afar if need be. A little bit goes a long way. The cultural shock alone would warrant some reaction and some sorting out. It happened in many cases.
I grew up in Oakland, CA. Guns meant different things Hunting yes. You pull one out in a car, even in the 50's and 60's - it means something entirely different.And given the number of times it took for some of them to actually hit that sign on 29 to leave some damage I'd assume their gun safety knowledge was as bad as their aim so no - I never took it lightly.
Grease Spot is a reunion of sorts...people trying to make sense of it all...and the opinions here run the gamut.
This caught my eye too...a bit eerie.
Before its final demise in 1988, it directly touched the lives of thousands of people, for better or worse. For some commune members, their time there was the highlight of their lives. For others, it was a nightmare.
Many stayed a decade or more, committing their youth, sweat, and worldly possessions to creating an example of brotherhood and harmony, that, they felt, would serve as a model for the rest of the world. Unfortunately, as it grew, the commune became a microcosm of the world at large, with most of the same problems, structures, and limitations of both American society and Soviet socialism.
A bit like "moving the word"..."walking the talk"....and all those catch phrases we really believed meant something. It doesn't make any of us bad people for trusting in a vision. But, the vision was an illusion IMO. Not because Christ is an illusion or that Christianity is the wrong path....but, because we followed a man who rewrote Jesus' vision, and not in a good or right way. His motives are what are in question...not those who really wanted to live a life that promoted change...or believed in making a difference. Although, examining why we bought into can be a good, healthy, yet to many, a painful endeavor.
It is a bit of a wake-up to realize we were not all that unique and somewhat a product of the times. Our little utopia was the vision of a man who knew how to manipulate people and take advantage of those times.
Before its final demise in 1988, it directly touched the lives of thousands of people, for better or worse. For some commune members, their time there was the highlight of their lives. For others, it was a nightmare.
Some would argue, rightfully.......twi's final demise was in 1988.
Didn't other groups "hit the wall" after about 15-18 years as well? That would be an interesting study......that these new age movements fizzle out after about 18 years, after ONE GENERATION? And, why is that?
Could it be that the youth grow up and other responsibilities take hold?
Could it be that the leader of the group is exposed as a fraud?
Could it be that the abuse so infiltrates the group that most exit?
Could it be that the manipulation tactics no longer work after so long?
Could it be that the group has too many chiefs and not enough indians?
Didn't other groups "hit the wall" after about 15-18 years as well? That would be an interesting study......that these new age movements fizzle out after about 18 years, after ONE GENERATION? And, why is that?
Could it be that the youth grow up and other responsibilities take hold?
Could it be that the leader of the group is exposed as a fraud?
Could it be that the abuse so infiltrates the group that most exit?
Could it be that the manipulation tactics no longer work after so long?
Could it be that the group has too many chiefs and not enough indians?
All of the above?
I'd say it was a combination of all of the above.
The biggie being as we get older we become wiser to how manipulation works and the tactics fail.
Think of it as a guy on a ledge threatening to jump. The first couple times you fall into his trap and tell him,"Oh, no, don't do that." But by the tenth time of threatening to jump your looking at you watch and rolling your eyes and making bets with the other bystanders where he's going to land.
quote: .......interesting to think about all those commune groups popping up across the country from 1968-1973. On a quest to find God, to meditate, to isolate from society. Looking back, it is amazing to see all the parallels.
During the 80s I came across info about the Oneida colony, a commune started in 1848 by a guy who believed Christ had already returned. They had weird sexual beliefs, including complex marriage and the complete withholding of male orgasm (?). They made silverware too, and when the thing dissolved in 1881 all assets went into the silverware company, which still exists. There's several wikipedia articles on it. I guess the desire to withdraw from mainstream society is not new.
there are few places in the world that seem to "recognize" that little "diploma".. or attach any significance to the "holy spirit" ring that some recipients were able to purchase.
Like.. maybe offshoots..
other places don't seem to give a rat's azz if one has evidence that they "studied" for two years in some cramped hall under victoid I or the loymeister's "feet"..
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
25
16
15
14
Popular Days
Apr 2
34
Apr 8
34
Apr 7
10
Apr 1
9
Top Posters In This Topic
skyrider 25 posts
Ham 16 posts
waysider 15 posts
So_crates 14 posts
Popular Days
Apr 2 2011
34 posts
Apr 8 2011
34 posts
Apr 7 2011
10 posts
Apr 1 2011
9 posts
Popular Posts
skyrider
Socks.....you are a peacemaker. I like that and respect you for it. Me?.......I come to GS to tell the other side and to help break the yoke of bondage. Here, at GS......that verse "he that is grea
skyrider
socks......you lost me there. I have grievances against the Way, against wierwille.......BECAUSE HE AND TRUSTEES WERE DECEPTIVE AND MANIPULATIVE AND BETRAYED TWI FOLLOWERS AND THE CORPS. In this thr
So_crates
Don't know if you guys saw this on the Inner Sanctum thread, but I figured it was worth posting one more time.
SoCrates
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Broken Arrow
Then of course, there's the verse somewhere where Moses says to Aaron, "Would you please pass the salt?"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Yes, I forgot that one. And, in conjunction with proper etiquette rules, Moses first tasted the food before requesting the condiment.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Well, of course, salt just = commitment.
But I have to agree with Johniam (!) on this - that water baptism as the evidence of commitment was laughed at - but the little dish of salt as evidence of commitment - was applauded.
Other symbols - like wedding rings as evidence of commitment - weren't commented on.
First, however, TWI had taught about the seriousness of breaking the salt covenant. It went through a lot of Corps in rez teaching. So it became a chain to enslave. Or maybe it was a "ring through the nose" so that Corps could be led wherever the Prez wanted.
I was worried about "breaking the covenant" when I first got dropped. Then I began to think differently - in my heart I was salted to serve God - not TWI.
I still have a little dish of salt, a gift from my elder Corps, when I graduated.
And I still serve God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
To me, the salt covenant represented the willing commitment of two individuals, or groups of individuals,.....before the throne of God.
The scriptures and the context of today's reality was bottom-line principle on which to stand. And, in this case, twi could NOT order edicts to the corps or advanced class grads THAT THEY WOULD NOT LIVE BY. Twi could NOT sit on their hands, refusing to be "servant of all"......and EXPECT the corps to slave for them (twi). Absurd.
Before God, the TWO commit.
Obviously, twi's trustees acted as if THEY administered the "contract".....rather than, being subjected to hold up THEIR END of the salted commitment.
Gee, its as if.....TWI WANTED TO PLAY GOD. <_<
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
That is the very thing that started the alarm bells some years ago before I left. How can it be a true commitment where only one party is holding the commitment? TWI is not committed to people in the way corps. They do not take care of the way corps. They use the way corps as long as they can and discard them when the corps person/couple no longer wants to do their bidding.
Or in the case of many other folks, they just drop them for little to nothing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Yeah....and alarm bells as the abuse intensifies.
1) Twi administers the salt covenant.....BEFORE GOD.
2) But to twi, that means.....you obey THEM.
3) Wierwille's lust, drunkenness, predation....YOU STILL MUST OBEY TWI.
4) Corps grads are on the hook to move EVERY THREE YEARS.
5) Wierwille dies of cancer.....trustees lie and say "he died of a broken heart."
6) Corps are supposed to swallow the lies, and silence any dissention.
7) Threat of mark & avoid......ON DISPLAY, EVERY CORPS MEETING.
8) Corps grads are to CONTINUE ALLEGIANCE.....as twi moves goal posts every year.
9) No debt, no mortgage, no career path that interfers with 4 twi mts/ week.
10) It doesn't matter how many decades you stand with twi....IT'S NOT ENOUGH.
11) Twi holds the microphone and can issue a character assassination any time they want.
12) At what point do you jump off this moving train??.......and roll away??
Wierwille was masterfully subtle.
Martindale was boisterous and predictable.
Rivenbark is cunning and calculating.
Different tactics........same evil.
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
what I wonder is how they tried to induct those who never made the "agreement".. against their will.
You know. "You heard da word.. you ARE salted.."
pfal grad? Yes.. you are "salted". "da word like it has never, ever, ever ever been known.."
etc. etc.
Intermediate class.
If you are "mature" you WILL come to the conclusion you owe your life to da ministry(?) that taught(?) you da word(?).."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
And....THAT has been the underlying mindset of twi since the '70s.
YOU heard the word....and now, YOU are responsible for 'that word.' If you walk away from it, then you'll have to answer (to God) for it. And yes.....this was pfal, int, adv class "salting."
The sprinkling started just after the food word was served.
Imagine being a corps grad?!?.........upper twi elites despise corps grads who walked away from the salted-serving-twi a lifetime AND the non-corps types despise the corps for meddling with their lives, etc.
Just seems like VERY FEW ever connect the dots back to wierwille/trustees.
.
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
The "salt covenant" is nothing more or less than a tool of spiritual abuse in the hands of false prophets and teachers.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Just seems like VERY FEW ever connect the dots back to wierwille/trustees.
there are many roads...the lead to Chicaaaago...
I still say what I realized from the get-go then - The Way wasn't my idea. I got involved to make a contribution, put forth my own ideas and goals that I felt were important to me and to throw them into the pot, become a part of a larger effort and more people, resources, etc. etc.
None of us need The Way or the Class or the books or the breezey wistful wind in the corn fields of Shelby County Ohio to do anything remotely resembling "Christiainity". Remove all of that and anything like it and you're still starting from the same place.
Anyyyyway - I answer to God for everything. I already answered to God for cutting ties with The Way. I got a raise and some time off for good behavior. As far as anything real in my life that was involved in that - and it had nothing to do with specific people and never would have - it's over. I don't despise anyone, if you were my friend then you are now. Doesn't matter to me if anyone feels differently back - that's their perrogative.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Socks.....you are a peacemaker. I like that and respect you for it.
Me?.......I come to GS to tell the other side and to help break the yoke of bondage. Here, at GS......that verse "he that is greatest among you shall be your servant" is quoted quite often. And, in context.....Jesus pulled NO PUNCHES in reproving the Pharisees.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [yourselves], neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Thanks, I appreciate your forthrightness.
Couple thoughts -
"Security" at the Way was an odd kind of thing - it was known to me as "The Farm" when I first went there it felt completely safe, probably one of safest places really. The need to be on the alert was a result of the local community yokels joy riding down Wierwille Rd. and into the property. The Way activities never warranted that. You'd get a car full of townies ripping down the road or throwing s--t on the grounds, trashing it.
The business about people going by at night and shooting holes in the sign out on 29-
Shelby County in the dead of summer makes a bingo game look wild so I guess in the absence of anything worthwhile to do there was always trying to screw with the Wayfers to fall back on.
That kind of stuff might seem warranted by those of you who now have grievances against the Way but it's not. People get arrested for doing stuff like that, get shot or worse. But in New Knoxville it went on and the local police could turn a blind eye to it or flat out ignore it.
Imagine coming to New Knoxville, meaning no harm and having no grudges against anyone let alone people you've never met before and then having a bunch of local teenagers, kids about your own age, doing that kind of stuff. Growing up on a farm doesn't automatically make you a bad as s regardless how much beer you drink. For the most part..........nobody faced off over this stuff in the early years. And VPW was very clear that some of these people were meaner then snot so be VERY careful about walking into Adolf's on a Friday night and making a move to throw down if someone started in. And people there would do just that - make no mistake about it, lines were drawn and it was wise to keep the peace.
There were a few instances where there were....confrontations. For the most part though it was kept down, the large numbers of the people typically on the grounds kept the average joy riders nipping at the edges, in the dark, when they'd find an opportunity. Yelling and cursing, screaming at women if they were out.
That's bull-s--t, period. Today anywhere else - forget it. There'd be war - somebody'd wrap one of those cars around the people in it and dump it in Lock 2, if it's still there.
Or maybe just get the local "police" to do their job.
Many of you may not know this to factor it into your evaluations but the need for security then wasn't to jerk Corps around or control people or anything like that at all. It was to keep an eye out for these goofballs. And while you may think we were all brainwashed jerks it's a testimony to the intent of the people there at that time that no one ever gave those guys what they deserved for terrorizing people at The Way at that time.
What developed over the years was like some weird transmutation of a purpose that at it's basis had cause. Unfortunately there's always weirdo freaks who get the urge to harrass others, make fun of them, trash them and try to scare them.
What goes around comes around, in this life and the next IMO.You may avoid it coming but you will get it, going.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
socks......you lost me there.
I have grievances against the Way, against wierwille.......BECAUSE HE AND TRUSTEES WERE DECEPTIVE AND MANIPULATIVE AND BETRAYED TWI FOLLOWERS AND THE CORPS.
In this thread, primarily, we've been discussing the bogus associate theology degree and the salt covenant. I contend that the whole concept of an "associate theology degree and an accredited christian college" was all a ruse......twi wasn't even in the ballpark of that description. The Emporia campus was a clone-factory to punch out as many J0hnnie T0wns3nds that it could.....in other words, dedicated class instructors. Not leaders! Not men of integrity! Not decision-makers. The corps was a follower-ship program.
My grievances against twi are many.....but bottom-line, a bait-and-switch operation. Twi baited willing volunteers with verses of scripture, baited us with veneer programs.....but inside, they were HYPOCRITES as depicted of the Pharisees in my last post.
I understand that you went thru "the system" and corps a few years before me and saw "the Farm" a few years before me. And, I sat in many meetings and sharings where Howard would talk about helping to build the BRC...or Mal & Jan would share about being led into sit by wierwille. All that stuff is small potatoes to what I'm spotlighting here. More along the lines...."it's not what enters a man that defiles him, but what comes out of the man" sorta thing. TWI became defiled because the HEARTS OF THE TRUSTEES was defiled.
If I were to highlight and talk about people like you, socks, and hundreds of others who were simple-hearted and pure.....I could attest to the goodness of God. There were many, many good-hearted folk in twi who had deep compassion in their hearts to serve others. I understand that. But the stumbling block was twi's upper leaders......same as in Jesus' day where the Pharisees lorded over the people.
And, that's why twi's salt covenant is a sordid sin pact.......they (twi) can wallow in sin, yet hold the advanced class grads and corps accountable to cherry-picked scriptures. For all their "First Century Church" jargon....they make it sound like the early believers walked in lockstep unity with a renewed mind. Egads! Doesn't anyone read the scriptures anymore and have an ounce of critical thinking? The early believers were as diverse and opinionated and unique as it gets.
So, socks.......my grievances are NOT with the little rules and regs that twi implemented to safeguard them from the townies. I can appreciate some of the "warm-fuzzies" of yester-year and all......but, geeze-louise, when the curtain is pulled back all I see is a bumbling, conniving "wizard" in purple pajamas. And, like Dorothy in that classic movie, MOST EVERYTHING I WAS SEARCHING FOR, I HAD ALL ALONG.
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
Socks.
I agree with you: this is antisocial behavior.
However, there is a part of me that wonders if Saint Vic didn't create this situation.
We all know how he was with ministry women. Who's to say he didn't, at one time or the other, attempt to seed the entire female popultion of Shelby County?
That would make for a lot of people with grudges. And if one of them just happens to be the wife, sister, or daughter of the police cheif or mayor--well, so much for the police wanting to be involved.
I'm not trying to justify their behavior, just suggesting maybe they had reasons for it. Reasons similar to ours.
SoCrates
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Socks,
Your post made me think of that movie Footloose. . . . ever see it? :) Kevin Bacon moves to a small farm community and is disliked by the locals? What you are relating is one side of the story...if you spoke to those locals and their families it might sound a bit different. I can imagine it was disconcerting for them to have a bunch of kids(What did you all look like?) descending on a farm in their community. When were the Manson murders? What were the times like? Unfair of the locals maybe....but, in hindsight and as an adult you may be able to look at least a little bit .....from their perspective. I am sure they were not enamored of VP or what he was turning the family farm into.
The same thing happened here with Brotherhood of the Spirit....a similar group to the early days of TWI and MANY others from the late 1960's early 70's. They were written up in Look, not Life magazine. Amazing parallels. I remember the reactions to them. They were not welcome with open arms...but, I do understand the reaction. There were some bad things that happened to those sweet kids seeking to make a difference. Why did it visit our little town? Local kids did get sucked in and a few died.
I know many of the remnant now as an adult....their responses to the doctrine and vision of their leader and the group are varied, but they are, for the most part, great people. They went through a great deal of hardship though...being involved in a cult. Some of them will never wake up and I know of a few horrible things which have happened as a result. Really sad things. I know a father, who never really grieved for his young daughter who was killed in a riding accident. He almost took pleasure in her untimely death. As is evidenced by the celebration that followed.
Some of the changes wrought by movements during the 1960's and 1970's were good. People with vision standing for change. Power to the people brother, I am with you...even though I missed all the fun by a few years. Yet, just because something was our own little vision, and our motives were pure....it doesn't make what and who we stood with good by osmosis.....but, it was our youth and who we were and what we believed...so how we view it is always going to be from a personal and difficult perspective. I guess?
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
geisha.......interesting to think about all those commune groups popping up across the country from 1968-1973. On a quest to find God, to meditate, to isolate from society. Looking back, it is amazing to see all the parallels.
On the brotherhood link, this quote stands out....."There have also been many well-attended reunions and gatherings of former and current members where the issue of the community’s controversial legacy remains a major topic. Those who were part of the Brotherhood of the Spirit have gone on to become teachers, artists, health-care providers, millionaire executives, and at least one ordained Buddhist monk. Their views about their time spent in the community run the full gamut of human emotions and opinions."
The Brotherhood of the Spirit
.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Understood, sky.
My point is - "security" was only thought to be a need early on because of local harrassment - it wasn't a part of a "program" to manipulate those at the Way.
"However, there is a part of me that wonders if Saint Vic didn't create this situation."
No, not as I saw it or see it So-crates, but that's certainly going to come to mind now, later. Cause and effect, sure, there's going to be some there. And the effect on the local community had to be stressful - small farm town, buildup of activitiy. But no - then as now I live by the rule that we can be at peace and from a distance if need be to maintain that peace. Soon as that line is crossed we're on a different path. I'll move back but there's only so much room for that if it's just not working out.
VPW - the grudges weren't a result of that. I met some of these people over the years - they were just as-sholes, garden variety. Heard about something, knew about something, maybe. Acting on it - if the local community had wanted to address something they could have.
Geisha - thanks good insight. the local community was for the most part pretty patient and tried to maintain a peaceful relationship from afar if need be. A little bit goes a long way. The cultural shock alone would warrant some reaction and some sorting out. It happened in many cases.
I grew up in Oakland, CA. Guns meant different things Hunting yes. You pull one out in a car, even in the 50's and 60's - it means something entirely different.And given the number of times it took for some of them to actually hit that sign on 29 to leave some damage I'd assume their gun safety knowledge was as bad as their aim so no - I never took it lightly.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Grease Spot is a reunion of sorts...people trying to make sense of it all...and the opinions here run the gamut.
This caught my eye too...a bit eerie.
Before its final demise in 1988, it directly touched the lives of thousands of people, for better or worse. For some commune members, their time there was the highlight of their lives. For others, it was a nightmare.
Many stayed a decade or more, committing their youth, sweat, and worldly possessions to creating an example of brotherhood and harmony, that, they felt, would serve as a model for the rest of the world. Unfortunately, as it grew, the commune became a microcosm of the world at large, with most of the same problems, structures, and limitations of both American society and Soviet socialism.
A bit like "moving the word"..."walking the talk"....and all those catch phrases we really believed meant something. It doesn't make any of us bad people for trusting in a vision. But, the vision was an illusion IMO. Not because Christ is an illusion or that Christianity is the wrong path....but, because we followed a man who rewrote Jesus' vision, and not in a good or right way. His motives are what are in question...not those who really wanted to live a life that promoted change...or believed in making a difference. Although, examining why we bought into can be a good, healthy, yet to many, a painful endeavor.
It is a bit of a wake-up to realize we were not all that unique and somewhat a product of the times. Our little utopia was the vision of a man who knew how to manipulate people and take advantage of those times.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Some would argue, rightfully.......twi's final demise was in 1988.
Didn't other groups "hit the wall" after about 15-18 years as well? That would be an interesting study......that these new age movements fizzle out after about 18 years, after ONE GENERATION? And, why is that?
Could it be that the youth grow up and other responsibilities take hold?
Could it be that the leader of the group is exposed as a fraud?
Could it be that the abuse so infiltrates the group that most exit?
Could it be that the manipulation tactics no longer work after so long?
Could it be that the group has too many chiefs and not enough indians?
All of the above?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
So_crates
I'd say it was a combination of all of the above.
The biggie being as we get older we become wiser to how manipulation works and the tactics fail.
Think of it as a guy on a ledge threatening to jump. The first couple times you fall into his trap and tell him,"Oh, no, don't do that." But by the tenth time of threatening to jump your looking at you watch and rolling your eyes and making bets with the other bystanders where he's going to land.
SoCrates
Edited by So_cratesLink to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i like you socksie and linzee and some others because even if you didn't experience it, you're willing to say you believe others who did
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: .......interesting to think about all those commune groups popping up across the country from 1968-1973. On a quest to find God, to meditate, to isolate from society. Looking back, it is amazing to see all the parallels.
During the 80s I came across info about the Oneida colony, a commune started in 1848 by a guy who believed Christ had already returned. They had weird sexual beliefs, including complex marriage and the complete withholding of male orgasm (?). They made silverware too, and when the thing dissolved in 1881 all assets went into the silverware company, which still exists. There's several wikipedia articles on it. I guess the desire to withdraw from mainstream society is not new.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
But back to the Associate Theology(?) Degree(?)..
there are few places in the world that seem to "recognize" that little "diploma".. or attach any significance to the "holy spirit" ring that some recipients were able to purchase.
Like.. maybe offshoots..
other places don't seem to give a rat's azz if one has evidence that they "studied" for two years in some cramped hall under victoid I or the loymeister's "feet"..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.