As far as money/tithes goes, as to supporting corrupt leadership - Jesus didn't say anything about not paying tithes and offerings. In fact, he approved a really broke woman paying all she had. And he himself paid his dues to the very people he said were "of their father, the devil" and "a brood of vipers."
So what becomes of ABS is really irrelevant to Naten's question. If he goes and if the horn of plenty is passed (or whatever they use nowadays) then he simply doesn't put anything in it.
So much depends on who runs the fellowship, at the twig level. Some will be run by great people who genuinely love and care for those in the twig. Some are run by autocrats who themselves want to be seen as the fount of all knowledge. Some of the best people I have met have been at twig level.
In fact, Naten, go a few times. After a month, count how many times they ask if you've taken the class yet. Or if you ask a question, do they answer it themselves, or tell you that the answer is "in the class." Ask a lot of details about this class. Specifically, whether you can ask questions to clarify your understanding during the session, during the teaching. Betcha can't.
Well I have had people ask me if I have taken the Foundational class and I usually respond that I went to bible college. Then they give me a weird look as if not knowing how to respond. My wife tells me (in my translation) that people in The Way do not know how to respond to people who have studied biblical hermeneutics and have an understanding of Koine Greek.
My wife tells me (in my translation) that people in The Way do not know how to respond to people who have studied biblical hermeneutics and have an understanding of Koine Greek.
That's because most of them consider formal theological education inferior to what the way international teaches in their class series. I was schooled in-residence to understand that Dr. Wierwille had been through so much hardship in his search for the truth that it was unnecessary for me to go through the same hardships because he had left his work behind in the way international. It was my job to steward that truth and teach it to others.
The first meeting they will absolutely ADORE you. Mwwwah.
Afterwards, you may have an urge to shower to wash the thick syrupy coating off..
but before I'd leave the meeting, I'd tell somebody that I believe in a trinity, and that jesus told me that it was ok to talk with my dead grandmother..
and somewhere along the line I would not fail to mention (factually or not) that I have five *major* pets, a mortgage, and $50,000.00 in outstanding student loans.
and somewhere along the line I would not fail to mention (factually or not) that I have five *major* pets, a mortgage, and $50,000.00 in outstanding student loans.
You left out that I need to tell them about my Jesus statue I have at home. I should also wear a cross on my neck.
As far as money/tithes goes, as to supporting corrupt leadership - Jesus didn't say anything about not paying tithes and offerings. In fact, he approved a really broke woman paying all she had. And he himself paid his dues to the very people he said were "of their father, the devil" and "a brood of vipers."
So what becomes of ABS is really irrelevant to Naten's question. If he goes and if the horn of plenty is passed (or whatever they use nowadays) then he simply doesn't put anything in it.
I don't want to get into a doctrinal dispute over this, but Jesus approved of the widow's heart and intent, and used it to confront the Pharisees. Similarly with his answer about paying dues, that was a response to the Pharisees trying to trap him with words. In Jesus time and culture there was one group/nation/organization that represented God. In our time and culture there are many, and we are free to choose where our support goes. We are speaking of different things. I think it's a bit of a stretch from Jesus answer to the Pharisees to infer that doctrinally you should financially support cults who harm people. I disagree with that in theory or in practice.
So much depends on who runs the fellowship, at the twig level. Some will be run by great people who genuinely love and care for those in the twig. Some are run by autocrats who themselves want to be seen as the fount of all knowledge. Some of the best people I have met have been at twig level.
In my experience people can be good and evil and you don't always experience all of a person until a situation arises that brings out their inner character. I too have experienced the good in people at many different levels within TWI. Yet I have also seen the best and kindest completely shun their own flesh and blood child when they did not "stand in the household". One example of this is the current President. She has a son. She ensured he was on "mark and avoid" status.
Well I have had people ask me if I have taken the Foundational class and I usually respond that I went to bible college. Then they give me a weird look as if not knowing how to respond. My wife tells me (in my translation) that people in The Way do not know how to respond to people who have studied biblical hermeneutics and have an understanding of Koine Greek.
Your standard thoroughfare fellowship attendee will be a little stymied with that answer on the fnc. As you get further up the food chain, you'll run into people who will know how to respond. In the Corps, there has always been specific training on overcoming objections like this. For example, someone might respond "Well, that's why you should take the FNC. Where else can you take advantage of over 60 years of Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship and learn fundamental keys on how the Word interprets itself as an augmentation to your bible college studies?"
No, they will carefully gauge your response over time to whether or not you will take the FNC. Then, directed by the leader (Branch, Twig, Limb, etc.) they will label you as "not hungry for the Word", and shun you partially or altogether. That behavior will continue throughout the duration of your involvement. The group dynamics condition people towards the behavior they expect or want. Leaders will most certainly track which classes you have taken and coach you to get to the next level, the Intermediate or Advanced classes, then after that going to work on Staff or going out on Way Disciples as an outreach program, or going into the Way Corps. With the classes it will pretty much be an assumption you'll take the next one. With the programs it's more like "have you ever considered doing X, and how it will bless your life?"
Now if you look at that all by itself many may say "what's wrong with that, aren't they just helping people?" The problem is that structure serves the people at the top. And those people will think nothing of lying, slandering, calling people possessed, blackballing them, and doing whatever it takes to preserve their little positions and power they have. The organization and structure serves the Pharisees who run it. That's what's wrong with it.
Now with people like Galen on this thread, who have been around TWI for 30 years or so, he's taken the Adv. Class and with the military career avoided a lot of the normal pressuring towards the more advanced programs. He's at a place now where they'll mostly leave him alone and not do all the peer pressuring, except for maybe once a year when requests come out to fill Staff positions they'll ask him.
That is why I'm saying I don't know what you'll get out of attending a fellowship to "see how they function". I mean the meeting structure is mostly like an old church service. The people will love bomb you at first as someone who will actually agree to come to a fellowship that hasn't been around the org for years is more of a rarity. The numbers aren't exactly growing. And you'll experience what I describe. Or they may hide the recruiting behavior a bit before they come back around to it.
I go to a fellowship. It's good. Not a twi fellowship, but similar.
In many ways not being under the authority of a larger organization leaves people more free to follow their conscience.
I know someone who regularly attends a current twi fellowship. He says he likes it. He let me listen to a couple of SNS tapes. The tapes are kinder and gentler than they were in 1994. Back then a typical SNS tape featured LCM teaching for 1 hour. Twenty minutes of scripture and teaching and 40 minutes of him screaming about whatever made him angry that week.
Yes, that guy was a little bit nuts. My analysis of that is it was a subconscious reaction to his wife leaving him in stages for another woman. Nowadays the SNS tapes are heavily scripted, and the best description of them I can give is "vanilla", or "like elevator music". They are definitely not a thinking man's teaching.
Now with people like Galen on this thread, who have been around TWI for 30 years or so, he's taken the Adv. Class and with the military career avoided a lot of the normal pressuring towards the more advanced programs. He's at a place now where they'll mostly leave him alone and not do all the peer pressuring, except for maybe once a year when requests come out to fill Staff positions they'll ask him.
(snip)
I'll explain how Galen is an exception to things.
vpw, among other things, was a petty, venal man who wanted accolades and adoration.
He wanted the cachet of titles he didn't work up to.
So, his vision of twi included lots of people applauding him, standing when he entered rooms,
and so on. He admired the IMAGE of the military while lacking any familiarity with it.
(We've all seen movies, but there's a reality beyond that.)
So. vpw wished he could have people do what he THOUGHT the military was about-
people who give orders, and people who follow orders without question. He mentioned that lots
of times, and that IDEA was an inspiration when he formed the "Way Corps."
Among other things, vpw seemed to have been a little spellbound by the mystique of the military
whose service he avoided when he had the chance. (Again, he wanted the benefits without
working for the rank.) So, whenever the subject of military personnel came up,
vpw himself treated them as "hands-off" and was a LOT nicer to them all over the place.
That trickled down at every level. So, if you were in the military in twi, you were spared
the inner corruption and basic bs they often passed down.
Galen is a further exception because of his TYPE of service. As a military officer, he of course
went where assigned, and went to different places. In his case, he ended up a LOT of places,
so it would have been a lot of work for twi to pin him down and pressure him. Whenever anyone
started to apply the screws, well look at that, I'm being relocated.
So, he had a milder twi experience than most, which makes it easier to apply the excuses and
rationalizations about how it's really not so bad, and how everybody else is rotten, too,
With us using Galen as an example on this thread, and him posting I just wanted to take the time to say that Galen himself is actually a really nice guy and a good person. I'm sure many people around TWI have met him over the years.
It was a twig coordinator who suggested we take our son up into the mountains and take turns hitting him over the head with a 2 x 4 until he either learned to obey or died of his injuries.
It was a branch coordinator who told us to "get rid of him" either by abandonment or by other means, as he could not in that particular state get the "men of God" to stone him to death."
I'm glad glad for Galen, that he is once again in the fold, one of the chosen few who have crossed the bridge of believing into the promised land of the prevailing word. My personal suggestion is to run like hell in the opposite direction. There are lots of churches which teach Bible and better than those hapless souls teach and without demanding unquestioning obedience to leadership or putting legalistic, unreasonable burdens of their members.
actually, i think you should go to new knoxville, ohio, to get a real view
just set up an appointment with ms. rivenbark
sorry i don't where you live
maybe make a phone appointment
--
my husband and i were twi leaders when wierwille turned his eye to the motorcoach wall and psycho geer got involved, etc., etc.
we attended a "corp meeting" and were told NOT to tell people in our twig/branch what was going on. we said "screw that"
people asked us to keep running a fellowship after that but how could we? first, we were so beyond burned -- i was beyond messed up. what were we supposed to teach? vp's books? chris geer's tapes? craig's insanity? please come on
john lynn passed through on his positive carpet ride -- made me sick
the love / friendship we had with the people we fellowshipped with was real. nothing else was. i'm not saying god wasn't, but where the heck do you go from there? our leader would be the person who told us we couldn't tell them the truth. or it would be psycho craig or chris or lynn
If you don't go, how can you Know? Or how will you grow? And if not you then who? If not now, then when? If not this then what? Why sit ye here till ye die?
Anyway, it's very difficult to understand a home "twig" without being there, with people, etc. Hearing about it won't duplicate the actual experience.
There's probably going to be some expectation around you being there though so the experience will be impacted by your presence so it's not like being a fly on the wall, you become part of what's going on.
But it's not a big deal, it's not like zombies will come out of the sofa and eat your brains. You're adults right? So you go, they'll be nice to you, I'd expect. No biggie.
Not sure what city you live in, locations and local leaders have a big impact on how things are done, from what I've heard lately (and that's not a lot) But basically they're pretty similar - songs, prayer, manifestations, some more prayer, an offering, a teaching or tape, some more prayers maybe some more songs. It's pretty basic stuff, not always in that order but pret' near close I'm sure.
With us using Galen as an example on this thread, and him posting I just wanted to take the time to say that Galen himself is actually a really nice guy and a good person. I'm sure many people around TWI have met him over the years.
I disagree with Galen's conclusions and some of his reasonings.
That doesn't mean I don't respect him. I find many of the things he's done to be quite admirable.
Mind you, they co-exist with me disagreeing with him strongly on a few issues, so someone might
thing there's contradictions in there.
It was a twig coordinator who suggested we take our son up into the mountains and take turns hitting him over the head with a 2 x 4 until he either learned to obey or died of his injuries.
It was a branch coordinator who told us to "get rid of him" either by abandonment or by other means, as he could not in that particular state get the "men of God" to stone him to death."
I'm glad glad for Galen, that he is once again in the fold, one of the chosen few who have crossed the bridge of believing into the promised land of the prevailing word. My personal suggestion is to run like hell in the opposite direction. There are lots of churches which teach Bible and better than those hapless souls teach and without demanding unquestioning obedience to leadership or putting legalistic, unreasonable burdens of their members.
I find that any organization that's fine with some of its leaders giving such sociopathic advice
to be one I can't trust, support, or co-exist with in any substantial manner.
In any respectable organization, someone's caught doing that, and there's a lot of trouble for
the person doing that. Most Christian churches do a lot more "vetting" of its leaders before
they're allowed to be called "leaders". I have a friend who's gone through YEARS of training
and vetting that would find the process twi used/uses to be remarkably SLIPSHOD, INDISCRIMINATE
and CLUMSY- in short, UNPROFESSIONAL and INSUFFICIENT.
People on this forum have all had different experiences. There was a long period where leaders were poorly chosen, lacked training, and may not have been the best choice. But then again at the same time there have also been fellowships that have been the greatest.
[Those co-existed during the same timeframes. The reason for that is that twi's methods
of "vetting" candidates for anything has always been SLIPSHOD and ARBITRARY.
As lcm himself documented, vpw's vetting for him for entry into the corps-the multiyear program
of twi for training its titled leaders and other hierarchy- was simple...
"YOU CAN STAY AS LONG AS YOUR MONEY HOLDS!"
vpw wanted to know he'd be getting money. There was never a question of "who among the interested
candidates would make appropriate leaders, and who has to be refused because they would be a poor
candidate." If they could PAY, they could get in. Nothing in the Corps application process was
a realistic "brake" for the program-other than "can you get us the money?"
In some cases, some excellent Christians were dedicated to God and entered that program and other
programs, or served as local leaders. In some other cases, some unstable individuals or greedy
and venal people entered that programs and other programs, or served as local leaders.
So, your experience "on the field" could vary widely based on whether or not twi was passing
along an excellent Christian or dumping a loose cannon on you because he paid his money.
I've known of some excellent and some awful leaders in twi, some of whom were local, and some
of whom were corps graduates. The corps program was so deficient that-if you went in as an
excellent Christian, you may have come out as one, or you could have been ruined as one based
on the bizarre teachings and practices vpw inflicted on them. On the other hand, if you were
lukewarm or worse, there was nothing in the program to stop you, and nothing in the program
to repair you and make you a better Christian.
What does all that mean? It means twi's methods of acquiring and training leaders are
greatly deficient and below what is considered an acceptable standard outside of twi.
That a few people worked out is NOT something I credit to twi- since twi did nothing to make
them so. In some cases, however, they adulterated good Christians into bad ones, and in
other cases, they took poor Christians and dumped them on locales.
I can't just shrug my shoulders about practices that ROUTINELY resulted in these.]
In the fellowship I attend now, your 'challenges' would be welcomed. There is a desire to keep things 'in order'. Which simply means to be respectful during the fellowship, but once we break for coffee or a meal; then it is fair game to ask questions, or 'challenge' anyone.
We rotate among us each week for who is going to present something. Really if you challenged me, I would like it. I like doing 'word studies', so any opportunity to open the Bible and look at a context, or usages of a term is largely what we do.
It is kind of boring if nobody ever does that. :)
I think that among my fellowship your honest questions would be welcome and encouraged.
[The odds of him finding any OTHER local fellowship that would apply to are slim at best,
Everyone ELSE wants people to know their role and never challenge things.
Also, as valuable as the Bible is, is the be-all and end-all of things really all "word studies"
and scholarly study?]
What I said was not in the context of ministry BOD or presidents. I was only talking about Twig coordinators and Corpse personnel.
I do understand that there have been issues with past and present presidents; though I have never known any of them, nor have I ever had any dealings with them. Since the people that you wish to discuss would be strangers to me, I feel it would be inappropriate for me to talk about them.
[Too convenient, and too easy.
These people are-morally and legally- ACCOUNTABLE to you for their actions. In assuming the titles as the
cadre of the organization, they have fiduciary responsibilities to do those "jobs" that accompany the
titles and actually "lead", and to do so in a manner that actually gets things done that should be
done while preventing other things from being done that should NOT be done.
What's truly "INAPPROPRIATE" is to find corruption rampant in an organization- especially in its top tier-
and to turn a blind eye to it and continue to support that corruption and actually provide a mask
for it by doing "business as usual."]
But it's not inappropriate that of the money you put in the horn 75% of it goes to pay their salaries? Wow. This is called being an "enabler".
I'm not trying to be too harsh here, Galen. This is a very common attitude among TWI'ers. "Just take care of yourselves and your twig and God will sort out the rest". But there are blinders on. The majority are being used to enable the evil that goes on at the top. This is why when I became aware of it and realized it was not going to change I voted with my feet. My life, talents, energies, money, free time, education, expertise will NOT be used to enable the abuse that runs rampant in this cult. And I won't turn a blind eye to it any more, I will expose it. The only way evil exists is when good people do nothing to stop it.
I know them up close and personal. Worked for the directors in fact. I have left a lot of information on here confirming what others who were before me have written for years. If the organization that sponsors the fellowships is corrupt then what good can come out of the fellowships. Fellowships lead to classes on the field which lead to classes at HQ which lead to programs etc. Fellowships only serve to groom candidates to serve (slave) for the way international's MLM schemes. But like I said. Go - see for yourself.
When I was a teen, I was a member of my local Southern Baptist church. Their tithe went to paying the salary of our minister, a custodian, a secretary, etc. The rest went to the Southern Baptist Convention.
Then about the time I was a senior in high school it came out that most of our money had gone to South America where it had been supporting revolutionaries there. An investigation about the killings of missionaries showed that it was our tithe money that had paid for their weapons.
[A) When you were a teenager, you trusted them and didn't KNOW there was corruption and inappropriate
actions being done.
B)So, when the investigations were done, didn't all the people responsible GET IN TROUBLE?
See, RESPECTABLE organizations aren't perfect, but when corruption is found, attempts are made
to correct it, and the people responsible are ejected and handed over to the legal authorities.
For example, you described FRAUD, which is a FELONY. Some people should logically have been sent
to prison for committing it.]
I know all about the ways in which tithe money can be used to churches.
[From the context, it's obvious you're equating
"the ways in which tithe money can be used to churches" with
corruption and financing murderers.
Most of the time, money collected by churches goes for operating expenses and other
LEGITIMATE uses of funds- missionary work, soup kitchens, and so on.
If someone finds out a church today is financing terrorists or whatever,
that becomes MAJOR NEWS because it's an EXCEPTION. People don't just yawn and say
"that's the third one this week" or whatever.
Looks like you're considering conventional churches to be corrupt, vile villains so that
twi can fit in without trying to hide all the corruption in twi, by making that just
"business as usual" for churches.]
Today I am a member of a men's fraternity, who has been openly hunted by various governments at the bequest of the Roman Catholic Church. In fact as a US servicemember I served in a nation where my fraternity is 'illegal' and members who are discovered are subject to imprisonment. All thanks to the tithes of Catholics.
[Ok, time for a recap and a quick history lesson. Through the magic of the internet,
hours of research can be done in minutes while reading.
"Today I am a member of a men's fraternity"
Galen's referring to the Knights Templar.
This is a modern organization with the same name and some shared goals
as an organization of the same name that existed in Europe several centuries ago.
"There is no clear historical connection between the Knights Templar, which were dismantled in the 14th century, and any of the modern organizations, of which the earliest emerged publicly in the 18th century, and are referred to as Neo-Templars by some authors.
However, there is often public confusion and many overlook the 400-year gap. Also, no one can be commissioned as a Knights Templar since the organization was disbanded by the papacy in 1302."
The existing Knights Templar who survived after 1302 either merged into the Knights Hospitlar, or went to Portugal
and formed a new organization with a different name ("Knights of Christ.")
This does not make Galen's men's fraternity any less noble or admirable, so long as they do noble
or admirable work. However, they are NOT the same organization that was definitively disbanded
in the 1300's.
"who has been openly hunted by various governments at the bequest of the Roman Catholic Church."
The original Knights Templar was unjustly persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1300's,
and it asked various governments to unjustly persecute them as well.
That was centuries ago, and applied to the ORIGINAL, UNRELATED group.
(The current RC Church freely admits the unjust persecution was unjust.)
Galen has never had to consider, say, hiding in a basement because jackbooted stormtroopers
were going door-to-door looking for Templars to haul them somewhere.
"In fact as a US servicemember I served in a nation where my fraternity is 'illegal' and members who are discovered are subject to imprisonment."
Galen, do you really think you would have been thrown in prison in a modern country because
you belong to an organization that shares the same name as one that was disbanded in the 1300's
and that the modern country actually CARES about that? Do you HONESTLY think that?
If so, then I'm really concerned about your ability to reason.
If not, then I'm really concerned about your honesty and integrity.
"All thanks to the tithes of Catholics."
Yeah, if this was the 1300's, I'd sure consider the Catholic money collections
that went to hunt Templars to be spent unjustly. (It was financially profitable to seize the
holdings of the Knights Templar, but it was dishonest, immoral and unjust.)
To equate modern collection plates in a Catholic mass to the Templar persecution in the 1300's
is just silly.
But all this journeying into creative fiction isn't about history, is it? It's all justified to
portray it as the truth- because anything that excuses twi for its corruption is justified,
isn't it?
As far as I know, EVERY church that takes tithe is likely doing evil with it. This is the nature of organized churches. They are businesses. They operate on a bottom line, they must show a profit so they can support their salaried personnel.
[As 501-C charitable organizations, this is factually incorrect. Churches are NOT "businesses".
Churches do NOT "operate on a bottom line", and they are not required to "show a profit"
for any reason.
And let's not lose
"AS FAR AS I KNOW, EVERY CHURCH THAT TAKES TITHE IS LIKELY DOING EVIL WITH IT."
Oh? You've been investigating local churches, and ALL of the ones you've investigated
have been "doing evil" with the money they bring in?
What were the last 5 you investigated, and what "evil" were they doing?
Or, is all that actually just a supposition based on what you GUESS they're doing with
money you haven't traced? And isn't the supposition and guesswork very convenient
in that it allows you to pretend all of them are as corrupt at the top as twi?
This is not about blinding anyone's eyes.
I disagree.
I found wonderful truths about God while I was first attending a twig.
I found wonderful truths about God while I was first attending a twig.
Here we have it. This sentence is basically the justification, the rationale,
for lying about all other organizations to make them look so bad they're as poorly-run as twi.
I have also had run-ins with corpses. The first Corpse Grad I ever met was an arsehole, I caught him lying to believers, he admitted it to me and I made it known to the believers he was lying to. He [steve Strezpec] proclaimed to everyone that I was born of Satan's seed and threw me out of the fellowship.
In fact most corpses I have ever met were arseholes; but that does not over-ride the fact that I have also met a great many wonderful believers.
An organization spends YEARS on each person in their leadership training program.
By your own admission, MOST of those who COMPLETED the training and were considered success
stories and sent on assignment were "ARSEHOLES." (Most people would say "grossly-incompetent leaders"
or something similar.) If MOST of the "successes" of a program meant to produce TRAINED LEADERS
instead all became TRAINED ARSEHOLES, what does that say about the program?
Most people would call such a program a colossal FAILURE. Most organizations with a "success"
rate like that would be horrified, and would halt and completely examine every inch of their
program to see where the failures were. twi instead just kept moving things along. If someone
had the money together, they were able to enter a program that has been proven to produce
leaders who are grossly incompetent, By your own admission.
What CREDIBLE organization would consider such an irresponsible course of action?
We have seen healings and miracles. Through out all of the horrible abuses that leaders have done, there has also been some very special people who I am glad that I knew.
Among all of this there have also been a few leaders who have been good men. Of course anywhere you look, when people strive to be leaders they are usually power hungry arseholes. That is life.
I served for over 20 years in the Navy, I know all about arseholes. Simply because a few exist is not reason to trash the entire US Navy. Nor is it reason to trash all of the good that is done in twigs.
The 'life' of the Way is in the twigs. The twig we are in now is great. Got a question about anything? Lets open concordances, lexicons, Bibles and study it.
Our Limb Coordinator now is a great guy. I have known him for 30+ years. He is not power hungry, nor does he have any evil intent. Rather he is pretty knowledgeable of the Bible and very loving.
So, by your own admission, there's 2 twi's.
A) the OFFICIAL twi, which gets all the money, misappropriates it at the top, has the top cadre
consisting of corrupt people, and whose idea of years of leadership training produces
horribly inept leaders who are a blight on any location they are sent
(with a few exceptions that test that rule)
B) the UNofficial twi, where a few local groups actually care about people, attempt to do
things with completely opposite goals and results as the official twi,
all while lending their credibility to the OFFICIAL organization and paying them for
the privilege of providing nothing in return but the name of the organization.
So, if twi vanished tomorrow, the people you credit with being great Christians would
still do what you say is good for people.
If you people vanished tomorrow, twi would have to retool itself through accounting
trickery, and would continue to exist for the pleasure of the people at the top
who are sucking the finances out of you,
In other words, the OFFICIAL twi needs you, and you locals do NOT need them and
are only hanging around for each other and out of a sense of
"brand loyalty,"
I once owned a Commodore 64. Commodore went out of business long ago.
I haven't stopped using computers since then. I use computers out now.
I liked my Commodore 64. At the time, it was pretty spiffy.
Now, I work without it, and am a LOT happier with the results.
The new computers out-perform my old PC drastically.
There are, however, a handful of people who actually still use old
Commodore 64s they have refurbished and repaired. They're so
spellbound by the wonderful "honeymoon" of when they first got
a C-64 that they still think it's the best thing around, even now.
But it's not a big deal, it's not like zombies will come out of the sofa and eat your brains. You're adults right? So you go, they'll be nice to you, I'd expect. No biggie.
but the zombies have evolved. If they come of of the fabled sofa and consume your brains, well,they will have brains to eat one day. Teach them the *keys* and with a little self-restraint, they will have your brains and a friends brain, tomorrow..
just wait patiently..
..and refreshments....don't forget the refreshments....
ah yes, the refreshments. Please help yourself. We are serving the finest of Brains, slightly chilled, served with merlot, or cabernet..
without your brains, you might not even notice the lipstick stains and teeth marks on the Styrofoam coffee cups..
I noticed the marks on the styrofoam cups..
Fish Eye Cabernet is on sale at Krogers for 4.99. makes brains go down quite well..
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If you go - don't leave your critical thinking skills at home. Be kind, be considerate. But don't be a fool.
chockfull
With us using Galen as an example on this thread, and him posting I just wanted to take the time to say that Galen himself is actually a really nice guy and a good person. I'm sure many people around
chockfull
Hahaha. The Facebook "unfriend" feature... Making being shunned by a cult as easy as pressing a button
Naten00
Well I have had people ask me if I have taken the Foundational class and I usually respond that I went to bible college. Then they give me a weird look as if not knowing how to respond. My wife tells me (in my translation) that people in The Way do not know how to respond to people who have studied biblical hermeneutics and have an understanding of Koine Greek.
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OldSkool
That's because most of them consider formal theological education inferior to what the way international teaches in their class series. I was schooled in-residence to understand that Dr. Wierwille had been through so much hardship in his search for the truth that it was unnecessary for me to go through the same hardships because he had left his work behind in the way international. It was my job to steward that truth and teach it to others.
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Ham
I dunno. Should I go to fellowship..
The first meeting they will absolutely ADORE you. Mwwwah.
Afterwards, you may have an urge to shower to wash the thick syrupy coating off..
but before I'd leave the meeting, I'd tell somebody that I believe in a trinity, and that jesus told me that it was ok to talk with my dead grandmother..
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Ham
and somewhere along the line I would not fail to mention (factually or not) that I have five *major* pets, a mortgage, and $50,000.00 in outstanding student loans.
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Naten00
You left out that I need to tell them about my Jesus statue I have at home. I should also wear a cross on my neck.
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Ham
that would help..
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OldSkool
Don't forget Mary:
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chockfull
I don't want to get into a doctrinal dispute over this, but Jesus approved of the widow's heart and intent, and used it to confront the Pharisees. Similarly with his answer about paying dues, that was a response to the Pharisees trying to trap him with words. In Jesus time and culture there was one group/nation/organization that represented God. In our time and culture there are many, and we are free to choose where our support goes. We are speaking of different things. I think it's a bit of a stretch from Jesus answer to the Pharisees to infer that doctrinally you should financially support cults who harm people. I disagree with that in theory or in practice.
In my experience people can be good and evil and you don't always experience all of a person until a situation arises that brings out their inner character. I too have experienced the good in people at many different levels within TWI. Yet I have also seen the best and kindest completely shun their own flesh and blood child when they did not "stand in the household". One example of this is the current President. She has a son. She ensured he was on "mark and avoid" status.
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chockfull
Your standard thoroughfare fellowship attendee will be a little stymied with that answer on the fnc. As you get further up the food chain, you'll run into people who will know how to respond. In the Corps, there has always been specific training on overcoming objections like this. For example, someone might respond "Well, that's why you should take the FNC. Where else can you take advantage of over 60 years of Biblical Research, Teaching and Fellowship and learn fundamental keys on how the Word interprets itself as an augmentation to your bible college studies?"
No, they will carefully gauge your response over time to whether or not you will take the FNC. Then, directed by the leader (Branch, Twig, Limb, etc.) they will label you as "not hungry for the Word", and shun you partially or altogether. That behavior will continue throughout the duration of your involvement. The group dynamics condition people towards the behavior they expect or want. Leaders will most certainly track which classes you have taken and coach you to get to the next level, the Intermediate or Advanced classes, then after that going to work on Staff or going out on Way Disciples as an outreach program, or going into the Way Corps. With the classes it will pretty much be an assumption you'll take the next one. With the programs it's more like "have you ever considered doing X, and how it will bless your life?"
Now if you look at that all by itself many may say "what's wrong with that, aren't they just helping people?" The problem is that structure serves the people at the top. And those people will think nothing of lying, slandering, calling people possessed, blackballing them, and doing whatever it takes to preserve their little positions and power they have. The organization and structure serves the Pharisees who run it. That's what's wrong with it.
Now with people like Galen on this thread, who have been around TWI for 30 years or so, he's taken the Adv. Class and with the military career avoided a lot of the normal pressuring towards the more advanced programs. He's at a place now where they'll mostly leave him alone and not do all the peer pressuring, except for maybe once a year when requests come out to fill Staff positions they'll ask him.
That is why I'm saying I don't know what you'll get out of attending a fellowship to "see how they function". I mean the meeting structure is mostly like an old church service. The people will love bomb you at first as someone who will actually agree to come to a fellowship that hasn't been around the org for years is more of a rarity. The numbers aren't exactly growing. And you'll experience what I describe. Or they may hide the recruiting behavior a bit before they come back around to it.
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chockfull
In many ways not being under the authority of a larger organization leaves people more free to follow their conscience.
Yes, that guy was a little bit nuts. My analysis of that is it was a subconscious reaction to his wife leaving him in stages for another woman. Nowadays the SNS tapes are heavily scripted, and the best description of them I can give is "vanilla", or "like elevator music". They are definitely not a thinking man's teaching.
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WordWolf
Someone once pointed out that the "kindler and gentler" stuff is bleached clear of all the
things that might make it actually INTERESTING. rfr wants everything micro-managed and
doing EXACTLY what it's told. The people are not so much fellow humans as cattle to be
herded or shrubs to be shaped.
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WordWolf
I'll explain how Galen is an exception to things.
vpw, among other things, was a petty, venal man who wanted accolades and adoration.
He wanted the cachet of titles he didn't work up to.
So, his vision of twi included lots of people applauding him, standing when he entered rooms,
and so on. He admired the IMAGE of the military while lacking any familiarity with it.
(We've all seen movies, but there's a reality beyond that.)
So. vpw wished he could have people do what he THOUGHT the military was about-
people who give orders, and people who follow orders without question. He mentioned that lots
of times, and that IDEA was an inspiration when he formed the "Way Corps."
Among other things, vpw seemed to have been a little spellbound by the mystique of the military
whose service he avoided when he had the chance. (Again, he wanted the benefits without
working for the rank.) So, whenever the subject of military personnel came up,
vpw himself treated them as "hands-off" and was a LOT nicer to them all over the place.
That trickled down at every level. So, if you were in the military in twi, you were spared
the inner corruption and basic bs they often passed down.
Galen is a further exception because of his TYPE of service. As a military officer, he of course
went where assigned, and went to different places. In his case, he ended up a LOT of places,
so it would have been a lot of work for twi to pin him down and pressure him. Whenever anyone
started to apply the screws, well look at that, I'm being relocated.
So, he had a milder twi experience than most, which makes it easier to apply the excuses and
rationalizations about how it's really not so bad, and how everybody else is rotten, too,
and so on...
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chockfull
With us using Galen as an example on this thread, and him posting I just wanted to take the time to say that Galen himself is actually a really nice guy and a good person. I'm sure many people around TWI have met him over the years.
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Watered Garden
It was a twig coordinator who suggested we take our son up into the mountains and take turns hitting him over the head with a 2 x 4 until he either learned to obey or died of his injuries.
It was a branch coordinator who told us to "get rid of him" either by abandonment or by other means, as he could not in that particular state get the "men of God" to stone him to death."
I'm glad glad for Galen, that he is once again in the fold, one of the chosen few who have crossed the bridge of believing into the promised land of the prevailing word. My personal suggestion is to run like hell in the opposite direction. There are lots of churches which teach Bible and better than those hapless souls teach and without demanding unquestioning obedience to leadership or putting legalistic, unreasonable burdens of their members.
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Twinky
If you go - don't leave your critical thinking skills at home.
Be kind, be considerate. But don't be a fool.
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excathedra
go play with their heads if you have the time
actually, i think you should go to new knoxville, ohio, to get a real view
just set up an appointment with ms. rivenbark
sorry i don't where you live
maybe make a phone appointment
--
my husband and i were twi leaders when wierwille turned his eye to the motorcoach wall and psycho geer got involved, etc., etc.
we attended a "corp meeting" and were told NOT to tell people in our twig/branch what was going on. we said "screw that"
people asked us to keep running a fellowship after that but how could we? first, we were so beyond burned -- i was beyond messed up. what were we supposed to teach? vp's books? chris geer's tapes? craig's insanity? please come on
john lynn passed through on his positive carpet ride -- made me sick
the love / friendship we had with the people we fellowshipped with was real. nothing else was. i'm not saying god wasn't, but where the heck do you go from there? our leader would be the person who told us we couldn't tell them the truth. or it would be psycho craig or chris or lynn
hard to explain
thanks for letting me ramble
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excathedra
i guess our friends saw us at leaders, but we very much also saw ourselves as followers of the way international
so you can see how confusing and hurtful....
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socks
If you don't go, how can you Know? Or how will you grow? And if not you then who? If not now, then when? If not this then what? Why sit ye here till ye die?
Anyway, it's very difficult to understand a home "twig" without being there, with people, etc. Hearing about it won't duplicate the actual experience.
There's probably going to be some expectation around you being there though so the experience will be impacted by your presence so it's not like being a fly on the wall, you become part of what's going on.
But it's not a big deal, it's not like zombies will come out of the sofa and eat your brains. You're adults right? So you go, they'll be nice to you, I'd expect. No biggie.
Not sure what city you live in, locations and local leaders have a big impact on how things are done, from what I've heard lately (and that's not a lot) But basically they're pretty similar - songs, prayer, manifestations, some more prayer, an offering, a teaching or tape, some more prayers maybe some more songs. It's pretty basic stuff, not always in that order but pret' near close I'm sure.
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waysider
...and refreshments....don't forget the refreshments....
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WordWolf
I disagree with Galen's conclusions and some of his reasonings.
That doesn't mean I don't respect him. I find many of the things he's done to be quite admirable.
Mind you, they co-exist with me disagreeing with him strongly on a few issues, so someone might
thing there's contradictions in there.
I find that any organization that's fine with some of its leaders giving such sociopathic advice
to be one I can't trust, support, or co-exist with in any substantial manner.
In any respectable organization, someone's caught doing that, and there's a lot of trouble for
the person doing that. Most Christian churches do a lot more "vetting" of its leaders before
they're allowed to be called "leaders". I have a friend who's gone through YEARS of training
and vetting that would find the process twi used/uses to be remarkably SLIPSHOD, INDISCRIMINATE
and CLUMSY- in short, UNPROFESSIONAL and INSUFFICIENT.
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WordWolf
[Those co-existed during the same timeframes. The reason for that is that twi's methods
of "vetting" candidates for anything has always been SLIPSHOD and ARBITRARY.
As lcm himself documented, vpw's vetting for him for entry into the corps-the multiyear program
of twi for training its titled leaders and other hierarchy- was simple...
"YOU CAN STAY AS LONG AS YOUR MONEY HOLDS!"
vpw wanted to know he'd be getting money. There was never a question of "who among the interested
candidates would make appropriate leaders, and who has to be refused because they would be a poor
candidate." If they could PAY, they could get in. Nothing in the Corps application process was
a realistic "brake" for the program-other than "can you get us the money?"
In some cases, some excellent Christians were dedicated to God and entered that program and other
programs, or served as local leaders. In some other cases, some unstable individuals or greedy
and venal people entered that programs and other programs, or served as local leaders.
So, your experience "on the field" could vary widely based on whether or not twi was passing
along an excellent Christian or dumping a loose cannon on you because he paid his money.
I've known of some excellent and some awful leaders in twi, some of whom were local, and some
of whom were corps graduates. The corps program was so deficient that-if you went in as an
excellent Christian, you may have come out as one, or you could have been ruined as one based
on the bizarre teachings and practices vpw inflicted on them. On the other hand, if you were
lukewarm or worse, there was nothing in the program to stop you, and nothing in the program
to repair you and make you a better Christian.
What does all that mean? It means twi's methods of acquiring and training leaders are
greatly deficient and below what is considered an acceptable standard outside of twi.
That a few people worked out is NOT something I credit to twi- since twi did nothing to make
them so. In some cases, however, they adulterated good Christians into bad ones, and in
other cases, they took poor Christians and dumped them on locales.
I can't just shrug my shoulders about practices that ROUTINELY resulted in these.]
[The odds of him finding any OTHER local fellowship that would apply to are slim at best,
Everyone ELSE wants people to know their role and never challenge things.
Also, as valuable as the Bible is, is the be-all and end-all of things really all "word studies"
and scholarly study?]
[Too convenient, and too easy.
These people are-morally and legally- ACCOUNTABLE to you for their actions. In assuming the titles as the
cadre of the organization, they have fiduciary responsibilities to do those "jobs" that accompany the
titles and actually "lead", and to do so in a manner that actually gets things done that should be
done while preventing other things from being done that should NOT be done.
What's truly "INAPPROPRIATE" is to find corruption rampant in an organization- especially in its top tier-
and to turn a blind eye to it and continue to support that corruption and actually provide a mask
for it by doing "business as usual."]
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WordWolf
[A) When you were a teenager, you trusted them and didn't KNOW there was corruption and inappropriate
actions being done.
B)So, when the investigations were done, didn't all the people responsible GET IN TROUBLE?
See, RESPECTABLE organizations aren't perfect, but when corruption is found, attempts are made
to correct it, and the people responsible are ejected and handed over to the legal authorities.
For example, you described FRAUD, which is a FELONY. Some people should logically have been sent
to prison for committing it.]
I know all about the ways in which tithe money can be used to churches.
[From the context, it's obvious you're equating
"the ways in which tithe money can be used to churches" with
corruption and financing murderers.
Most of the time, money collected by churches goes for operating expenses and other
LEGITIMATE uses of funds- missionary work, soup kitchens, and so on.
If someone finds out a church today is financing terrorists or whatever,
that becomes MAJOR NEWS because it's an EXCEPTION. People don't just yawn and say
"that's the third one this week" or whatever.
Looks like you're considering conventional churches to be corrupt, vile villains so that
twi can fit in without trying to hide all the corruption in twi, by making that just
"business as usual" for churches.]
[Ok, time for a recap and a quick history lesson. Through the magic of the internet,
hours of research can be done in minutes while reading.
"Today I am a member of a men's fraternity"
Galen's referring to the Knights Templar.
This is a modern organization with the same name and some shared goals
as an organization of the same name that existed in Europe several centuries ago.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Knights_Templar
"There is no clear historical connection between the Knights Templar, which were dismantled in the 14th century, and any of the modern organizations, of which the earliest emerged publicly in the 18th century, and are referred to as Neo-Templars by some authors.
However, there is often public confusion and many overlook the 400-year gap. Also, no one can be commissioned as a Knights Templar since the organization was disbanded by the papacy in 1302."
The existing Knights Templar who survived after 1302 either merged into the Knights Hospitlar, or went to Portugal
and formed a new organization with a different name ("Knights of Christ.")
This does not make Galen's men's fraternity any less noble or admirable, so long as they do noble
or admirable work. However, they are NOT the same organization that was definitively disbanded
in the 1300's.
"who has been openly hunted by various governments at the bequest of the Roman Catholic Church."
The original Knights Templar was unjustly persecuted by the Roman Catholic Church in the 1300's,
and it asked various governments to unjustly persecute them as well.
That was centuries ago, and applied to the ORIGINAL, UNRELATED group.
(The current RC Church freely admits the unjust persecution was unjust.)
Galen has never had to consider, say, hiding in a basement because jackbooted stormtroopers
were going door-to-door looking for Templars to haul them somewhere.
"In fact as a US servicemember I served in a nation where my fraternity is 'illegal' and members who are discovered are subject to imprisonment."
Galen, do you really think you would have been thrown in prison in a modern country because
you belong to an organization that shares the same name as one that was disbanded in the 1300's
and that the modern country actually CARES about that? Do you HONESTLY think that?
If so, then I'm really concerned about your ability to reason.
If not, then I'm really concerned about your honesty and integrity.
"All thanks to the tithes of Catholics."
Yeah, if this was the 1300's, I'd sure consider the Catholic money collections
that went to hunt Templars to be spent unjustly. (It was financially profitable to seize the
holdings of the Knights Templar, but it was dishonest, immoral and unjust.)
To equate modern collection plates in a Catholic mass to the Templar persecution in the 1300's
is just silly.
But all this journeying into creative fiction isn't about history, is it? It's all justified to
portray it as the truth- because anything that excuses twi for its corruption is justified,
isn't it?
[As 501-C charitable organizations, this is factually incorrect. Churches are NOT "businesses".
Churches do NOT "operate on a bottom line", and they are not required to "show a profit"
for any reason.
And let's not lose
"AS FAR AS I KNOW, EVERY CHURCH THAT TAKES TITHE IS LIKELY DOING EVIL WITH IT."
Oh? You've been investigating local churches, and ALL of the ones you've investigated
have been "doing evil" with the money they bring in?
What were the last 5 you investigated, and what "evil" were they doing?
Or, is all that actually just a supposition based on what you GUESS they're doing with
money you haven't traced? And isn't the supposition and guesswork very convenient
in that it allows you to pretend all of them are as corrupt at the top as twi?
I disagree.
This does not excuse twi of corruption
(snip)
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WordWolf
Here we have it. This sentence is basically the justification, the rationale,
for lying about all other organizations to make them look so bad they're as poorly-run as twi.
An organization spends YEARS on each person in their leadership training program.
By your own admission, MOST of those who COMPLETED the training and were considered success
stories and sent on assignment were "ARSEHOLES." (Most people would say "grossly-incompetent leaders"
or something similar.) If MOST of the "successes" of a program meant to produce TRAINED LEADERS
instead all became TRAINED ARSEHOLES, what does that say about the program?
Most people would call such a program a colossal FAILURE. Most organizations with a "success"
rate like that would be horrified, and would halt and completely examine every inch of their
program to see where the failures were. twi instead just kept moving things along. If someone
had the money together, they were able to enter a program that has been proven to produce
leaders who are grossly incompetent, By your own admission.
What CREDIBLE organization would consider such an irresponsible course of action?
So, by your own admission, there's 2 twi's.
A) the OFFICIAL twi, which gets all the money, misappropriates it at the top, has the top cadre
consisting of corrupt people, and whose idea of years of leadership training produces
horribly inept leaders who are a blight on any location they are sent
(with a few exceptions that test that rule)
B) the UNofficial twi, where a few local groups actually care about people, attempt to do
things with completely opposite goals and results as the official twi,
all while lending their credibility to the OFFICIAL organization and paying them for
the privilege of providing nothing in return but the name of the organization.
So, if twi vanished tomorrow, the people you credit with being great Christians would
still do what you say is good for people.
If you people vanished tomorrow, twi would have to retool itself through accounting
trickery, and would continue to exist for the pleasure of the people at the top
who are sucking the finances out of you,
In other words, the OFFICIAL twi needs you, and you locals do NOT need them and
are only hanging around for each other and out of a sense of
"brand loyalty,"
I once owned a Commodore 64. Commodore went out of business long ago.
I haven't stopped using computers since then. I use computers out now.
I liked my Commodore 64. At the time, it was pretty spiffy.
Now, I work without it, and am a LOT happier with the results.
The new computers out-perform my old PC drastically.
There are, however, a handful of people who actually still use old
Commodore 64s they have refurbished and repaired. They're so
spellbound by the wonderful "honeymoon" of when they first got
a C-64 that they still think it's the best thing around, even now.
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Ham
but the zombies have evolved. If they come of of the fabled sofa and consume your brains, well,they will have brains to eat one day. Teach them the *keys* and with a little self-restraint, they will have your brains and a friends brain, tomorrow..
just wait patiently..
ah yes, the refreshments. Please help yourself. We are serving the finest of Brains, slightly chilled, served with merlot, or cabernet..
without your brains, you might not even notice the lipstick stains and teeth marks on the Styrofoam coffee cups..
I noticed the marks on the styrofoam cups..
Fish Eye Cabernet is on sale at Krogers for 4.99. makes brains go down quite well..
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