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Sexual Predators in TWI.....and elsewhere

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Along with the fact that many other victims have been abused by Sandusky after this incident, it's sad to see an icon brought down by not doing the morally right thing, when morality was his supposed calling card...Overall this has been and will continue to be a tragedy of epic proportions....

Good points, Simon.

When I exited twi....I took an assistant manager position. Within two weeks, this company help a seminar regarding managers, employees, proper boundaries, communication skills, and sexual harrassment. During this seminar, I learned MORE practical and proper boundaries than from all my years in twi, as corps and clergy.

In some 24 years in twi, I cannot remember ONE vpw-teaching on adultery! NOT ONE. The man was a slick operator, flying below the radar. He taught in areas that had double-meanings. He taught to live for the Lord and "Do as you fool please." He taught about "spiritual adultery." BUT......wierwille never taught the sin of adultery.

Think about it.......the president of the organization is a sexual predator, preying on young women who've committed their lives to God. How sick is that?

The Way International is compartmentalized in EVIL.

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Skyrider:

Think about it.......the president of the organization is a sexual predator, preying on young women who've committed their lives to God. How sick is that?

And we've discussed the observer in the shower....

What about Rosie....Rev. Rosie IIRC

She knew...she also orchestrated. But she kept quiet until it was time to throw somebody under the bus.

I wonder what would have happened if she had continued in silence about lcm?

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The outrage over the RC's? Where does one start?

Remember - after the current Pope took orifice, he was soon met with the media wanting to know how he stood on all of the cases that were brewing, notably in the U.S. I distinctly recall his obfuscation and dodging on the topic, noting that the bulk of the inquiries were coming from the American media regarding American situations, and that he saw it as an American problem, not a global issue.

He knew at that time of some of the situations that had been handled over many years due to his Vatican role - he just lied through his teeth. Point blank, bald faced shameless diversion away from the issue and rather than take action on it he indicated that it was a localized problem that needed to be handled case by case, not a world wide problem - which is what the world now knows it was and likely still is, as many other countries have stepped up and had to deal with it when it finally boiled over - which it was always destined to do, it was just a matter of time.

So the Popester - just like those guilty clergy scum - is a criminal in my opinion and should be testifying and providing depositions as to what he knew, when he knew it, what he did and didn't do and say and what his knowledge has been. Same goes for the rest of that herd of swine. They could demote all of the do-gooding priests, nuns, biships, cardinals - the whole bunch - to rank and file citizen tomorrow and those who do good would continue to do so. Take away their titles and let them go back to work the same as any one else who chooses to dedicate their lives to an ideal and their beliefs. Shouldn't change a thing, at all, if they're for real.

What VPW did is heinous. They're all in the same boat as far as I'm concerned and I by no means discount his entire life and career anymore than I discount the rest of Roman Catholicism - but that's a nasty packed boat he's in, dead or alive, and they can take it 20 miles offshore and pull the plug on it as far as I'm concerned. I don't give a rats asz how much Bible he taught.

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Where is the outrage over The Way International sexual predation of corps women? Where is the boldness, the honesty, and the integrity to CONFRONT the seductive and evil practices that entomb twi's founding president and a cadre of collaborators?

The sexual predation was/is outrageously wicked.....BUT so was/is the cover-up! Some would argue that all this involves psychological/social/power elements wherein one is constrained to confront a person who holds more authority and rank. Perhaps, there is fear of losing one's job or an outcast. But.....the whole thing stinks to high heaven and the Lord smells it.

To hide in the shadows and cover for these sins...is cowardly. All that 1986 talk of Cgeer having the "spiritual mantle of the Word" was 100% bullpookie. And, Walter C.....to shelve the adultery paper and hide behind his desk is a sell-out to sin. All those men in the "Yak Twig" (except Ralph) were, imo, partakers in this heinous cover-up. Wives of trustees? Most definitely.

And.....these were known to be the spiritual men and women in twi? If it wasn't so darn serious......it would be knee-slapping laughable. What a hoax! What a seduction! What a deception cast over the way ministry as a whole!

I believe....to this day, there are hq-staffers who know about the sexual predation, the pimping and grooming of select women, the abortions, the motorcoach frollicking, the dayton-motel runs by security, etc. etc. Do they receive extra perks for their silence and obedience? Do they receive bribe money every paycheck? How many have been "promoted up the ranks" for their obedience to the mogs and mogettes? So....those who sit in high places are, quite possibly, the most devious and cunning.

When one really peels the layers of this onion.......the stench of sin should be repugnant to all who love the Lord. The willingness to condone such actions by one's silence is sin, as well. And, therein....the predator and the collaborator are one of the same. Welcome Aboard the "mystery" train.

Few have the courage of conviction to SPEAK THE TRUTH IN LOVE.....to boldly go where the Lord would have them go and confront wickedness. With twi's headquarters, they wouldn't even have to leave the property.

Yeah, Rosalie knows where all the bodies are buried. She knew of martindale's sexual predation long before it hit the light of day......yet, she remained silent abiding her time until the presidency was hers. Good move, Rosie. Surely the Lord honors your faithfulness and diligence (sarc/). Is the next twi president sitting in darkness.....awaiting for his day to arrive?

Maybe.....twi hosted the "Crock of Ages" after all? :anim-smile:

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You just don't get it , skyrider.

Ya see, some people spoke in tongues, for the first time, at the culmination of session 12.

That makes it all worthwhile, now doesn't it?.

HALLELUJA!

Edited by waysider

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You just don't get it , skyrider.

Ya see, some people spoke in tongues, for the first time, at the culmination of session 12.

That makes it all worthwhile, now doesn't it?.

HALLELUJA!

Bingo!

First off, this was an authoritarian sub-culture. see Altameyer's work, The Authoritarians.

Secondly, the doctrine (an example of which was cited above by waysider) was (IMO intentionally) established to rationalize and/or self-justify the narcissistic behavior of TWIs authoritarian power structure.

I used "power structure" intentionally rather than "leadership" because leadership, biblically speaking, was the exact opposite of self-serving.

I specifically chose to NOT become career military, even though I served one hitch in the USAF, because I did not envision myself as a serf in an authoritarian culture.

I left TWI when I recognized that the accountability in that subculture was bass ackward. Instead of the power structure being accountable to those the bible said should be served (the people in the fellowships), in TWI, it was overtly the opposite.

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Thank you to everyone who has posted here to reveal (again) and summarize VP's underground sex ring so well I can't imagine how anyone can deny it existed. But some do...

I was in the second corps 1971-73. The predatory nature of VP was underground to me because some of us were not targeted. We were in the dark about the victims until many years later...yes, we were blind, naive, stupid, distracted, indoctrinated with "the man of god" concept of VP, etc. etc. to realize what was going on around us. You see what you want to see....

I rack my brain on how I missed the red flags though. One guess is that during the Corps I was engaged and spent my extra time with my fiance. It has occurred to me that because my fiance's father was a popular minister in the Northeast who supported VP in the 1970s, VP stayed away from me for fear I might tell. Who knows...Hindsight is 20/20. But the main reason, I think, is that I viewed VP as the man of God, period. That image disallowed any other interpretation of him. Indoctrination for some of us worked too well.

BTW - At that time, no autobiographies were required, that came later. Thankfully I was not a victim in my childhood.

Granted, some of us had marital problems over the years (as I mentioned in Affinity for Windows) but never did I think any organized web of sex abuse or orgies (good grief), etc. were the cause of anyone's troubles.

It wasn't until 1986 - a year after VP was dead, after the PoP was read, and after I resigned from the Research Dept. deciding to leave TWI - that a victim confided in me about the whole ugly, sickening, twisted mess. Then I talked with John S. about his adultry paper and read it just after he got fired at HQ. Then, the next year I learned about Kris Skedgell (author of Losing The Way). Over the years, the more I reflect on my past, the more the puzzle pieces begin to fit together and the red flags come back to haunt me...

It's all so utterly sickening. What continues the sickness is the denial of so many former victims who don't see themselves that way. Some even support off-shoot groups that continue worshipping VP. I suspect some will never face the facts...the facts are too hideous, shameful, and painful.

I know some women who have spent years and hundreds of dollars on therapy because of these activities. Some killed themselves. What will it take to close down TWI?

Edited by penworks

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I rack my brain on how I missed the red flags though. One guess is that during the Corps I was engaged and spent my extra time with my fiance. It has occurred to me that because my fiance's father was a popular minister in the Northeast who supported VP in the 1970s, VP stayed away from me for fear I might tell. Who knows...Hindsight is 20/20. But the main reason, I think, is that I viewed VP as the man of God, period. That image disallowed any other interpretation of him. Indoctrination for some of us worked too well.

penworks.....thanks.

I believe there are several reasons why many of us didn't see the red flags. For one thing, a sexual predator targets a selected individual(s) on a basis of many factors.......proximity, promiscuous nature, availability, opportunity, etc. My wife was around wierwille during the early 70s as well, yet she never saw any advances, or groping, or heard about sexual predation from wierwille. Perhaps, high morals and character have much to do with setting proper boundaries, no?

For me, I think that wierwille associated very little with us corps men.....unless you were in his inner circle. Also, I was so tired of sitting in classes and meetings all the time that I would volunteer for anything. I was so focused on activity to break the monotony that I sure as heck wasn't scrutinizing wierwille's life.

I started noticing things around 1978 that, I felt, were hypocritical and "off the word." But.....in no way, was I near the motorcoach late at night seeing the women coming and going. Me? I was a good corps kid......getting my sleep so that I could get my aerobic points at 4:30am :biglaugh:

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You got the Way International...The Boy Scouts..The Catholic Church...The Second Mile, founded by Jerry Sandusky...Even Alcoholics Anonymous has been coming under fire lately for the sexual predatory nature of some of the "13th steppers" targeting new, vulnerable members...

What of the people who were helped by these organizations and made it through unscathed?....Lucky or still victims nonetheless?....The Second Mile will more than likely not survive this tragedy...Yet there have been testimonies from boys who are now adults who were extremely grateful for the help and direction they recieved from the charity....Their testimonies will probably have little effect in keeping Sandusky from being behind bars for the rest of his life, but they have to cope with the fact that the charity that helped them so as a youth was founded by a predatory monster...Some may go the denial route, but many will be left ferreting out how so much good and so much evil can be delivered by the same man...

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does anyone know WHAT drugs were used, and where did he get them??? Or from whom???

A lot of the time, the only drug used was alcohol, and that's available all over the US, so it's

easy to find near any twi locale. vpw, of course, made drinking alcohol a part of the twi experience

at a certain level- HE drank the stuff every day, including when he traveled. (A poster here posted

their surprise- when vpw was expected to visit for TWO days, that person was tasked with buying

a FEW bottles of Drambuie for him, something they'd never HEARD of before then. Apparently, vpw

went through something like a bottle a day of Drambuie when visiting.) So, he prepped for women

to accept a drink (or 2 or 4) when he offered them one, when alone with them.

As for the rest, I have no specifics, only general information. It's common knowledge that

tranquilizers were a LOT easier to get a prescription for sometime after the early 1950s. It's

hardly shocking if vpw was getting valium or something similar. He might even have convinced an

innocent, non-twi doctor that he was having trouble sleeping and gotten a Rx for them. At the time,

that was not rare in the US. So, he worked with alcohol and some sort of tranquilizing agent,

and neither was prohibitively hard to get at the time.

====================

I thought I saw someone comment about orgies in twi. As far as I know, there were no actual orgies

in twi. (At least, I've never heard of any, and I wasn't invited if there were any.)

However, now that I give the matter a little thought, it's obvious this was something vpw WANTED but

couldn't HAVE. Look back at when he hijacked the hippies. He read about Christians in the Haight-Ashbury

area omong the hippies. He'd heard that there was a lot of "free love" among hippies, including orgies.

vpw headed out specifically to THOSE Christians. (Not any more local to him, even though it would have been

easier to stay in contact with some, say, within a state or so at some college.) He approached them,

and noted (even in the sanitized version) how comfortable they were with each other's bodies. He

EXPECTED to find hippie Christians who were comfortable with orgies, and that seemed to support his

expectation. When alone and drinking with J1m D00p, vpw asked him-repeatedly- about attendance at

an orgy, and pressed for SPECIFICS. At that moment, vpw VOLUNTEERED his own invention- a twisting of

a verse to claim God was ok with orgies. When D00p resisted the idea, vpw dropped the subject.

Time for Plan B- sex with individual hippychicks without orgies. When pliant hippychicks failed to

drop out of the sky (boy, what a waste of time to have gone to Haight-Ashbury, he hasn't been able

to score any boom-boom from the trip, even after!) he goes to Plan C- using the recruited hippies to

recruit youngsters (which he was already doing), and recruit from among THOSE youngsters to bring

some on campus, where he could try to cheat on his wife and see how many were willing to have

sex with him. That led to Plan D- tricking women into having sex with him from among those on campus.

If you look at this from a perspective of "was vpw looking to score sex partners?" then the entire

history of twi becomes frighteningly CONSISTENT and makes a lot of sense. Granted, I think he also

wanted money, a comfortable living, and much bestowed respect, but the path he selected seems to have

been steered straight for "youngsters who might be ok with casual sex with an old married guy."

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If you look at this from a perspective of "was vpw looking to score sex partners?" then the entire

history of twi becomes frighteningly CONSISTENT and makes a lot of sense. Granted, I think he also

wanted money, a comfortable living, and much bestowed respect, but the path he selected seems to have

been steered straight for "youngsters who might be ok with casual sex with an old married guy."

Exactly.....frighteningly CONSISTENT.

Remember....a GS poster, Catcup, gave testimony of her sister, on the WOW field, and the attempted seduction of wierwille on the motorcoach. When she refused, wierwille ordered her off the WOW field. Many months later, when Catcup asked wierwille what happened, he shot back..."She couldn't handle it (the WOW field)" and then took a long drag from his cigarette.

Others have posted accounts of the 3rd and 4th corps women and the sexual predation that was going on. Gee.....within just a few years, wierwille was "tapping the maple syrup" from his corps experiment. In building an elaborate, secret society of seduction, wierwille could not apparently contain the lust that burned in his soul. By 1975, the Christian Family and SEX class was filmed in all its seductive glory! Boobies and vaginas and penises....Oh My!

The CFS class did NOT handle the subject of adultery. In fact, it seemed like "The Teacher" seemed to sympathize with raging hormones in the youth and stated that it was absolutely normal to get ones needs met.

It doesn't take "spiritual maturity" to realize that the stage was set for rampant, sexual predation in twi. The president endorsed it.....and the floodgates opened. Love, sex and "pressed down"...and overflowing.

Some have contested that wierwille was a misogynist and had a hatred of women. Through my corps and staff years, I've witnessed many situations wherein wierwille acted with disdain for some women and heaped praise on others. Clearly, not unconditional christian love......but conditional. Now, I wonder if these were women who rejected his advances and groping.

When the president of a religious organization plays favorites and withholds from others.....everything is suspect. Did their programs and classes have ANYTHING TO DO WITH HAVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR HEAVENLY FATHER???

What a twisted world wierwille built and envisioned......

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...Some may go the denial route, but many will be left ferreting out how so much good and so much evil can be delivered by the same man...

It's the concept of compartmentalization.

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It's the concept of compartmentalization.

And......the scriptures pinpoint "compartmentalizing" as a FALSE doctrine.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

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And......the scriptures pinpoint "compartmentalizing" as a FALSE doctrine.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

I'm not suggesting otherwise concerning a ministry. However, actual trees DO compartmentalize and when the overall tree is vigorous and healthy, the diseased part is isolated (compartmentalized) and the tree might still produce fruit. It is just an observation on trees, not intended to be a rationalization or justification of anyone's behavior.

And people DO compartmentalize also. I'm not sure it's something that you can teach people not to do as individuals.

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I don't have too many worries about twi anymore.. sure, the enablers there Lord it over a small, diminishing flock.

What about the offshoots?

I'm thinking of one in particular, which reserves da power of gawd almighty to send any participant packing, in the middle of the night, for any reason whatsoever..

1. Did you EVER, in the old *ministry*, use your supposed spiritual "authority" to gain sexual favors, from those under your "charge".. ever? even once?

2. What is your alcoholic consumption each week?

3. In your resurrection of the old organization, how can you answer question number one in terms of your new "charge"?

and to the others..

did you EVER turn your back at such an occurrence?

No accusations here, just questions..

I've tried to make it easy to answer..

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quote: Oh please, Johniam, it's not all about you. Or all about VP.

The very first post on this thread MADE it about VP without any hesitation. Like so...

quote: Sexual predators and cover-ups are making news again. The Penn State scandal involving Jerry Sandusky, a defensive football coach under Joe Paterno, and young boys has rocked the college football world.

A whistleblower broke the story....... And last night, the Board of Trustees fired Graham Spanier‚Äč, president of Penn State, and Joe Paterno‚Äč, the legendary coach of the Nittany Lions.

YET.......The Way International has black-listed and denied any "whistle-blower" who came forward regarding sexual predators like Victor Paul Wierwille and L. Craig Martindale and others. Books have been written....detailing the sexual predatory ways and destruction of lives.

quote:

Is it MORE evil to be a sexual predator of young boys?

Yes, it is. This is a no brainer. This guy Sandusky allegedly molested KIDS over a period of at least 15 years and you're comparing VP and LCM to this? In Kris' book she admitted to cheating on her husband with another guy in the area for a time because the other guy made her feel more loved. She wasn't a young girl; she was an adult. She knew VP was married. What? The cult made me do it? Pressure? Yes, but she could have refused. A woman she named Becky refused. So did GSC alum Valerie52. That 10 year old kid in the shower with Sandusky had no power to refuse if the account is true.

Last night on ESPN Sandusky told Bob Costas he's innocent. He said he was "horsing around" in the shower, snapping towels, but no rape. Costas asked him if he was sexually attracted to young boys. This is priceless. He said, "Attracted....SEXUALLY? Uh, I don't really see it that way." I'm not buying it. He's toast. That's like Clinton saying he didn't have sex with that woman or define sex.

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I believe there are several reasons why many of us didn't see the red flags. For one thing, a sexual predator targets a selected individual(s) on a basis of many factors.......proximity, promiscuous nature, availability, opportunity, etc. My wife was around wierwille during the early 70s as well, yet she never saw any advances, or groping, or heard about sexual predation from wierwille. Perhaps, high morals and character have much to do with setting proper boundaries, no?

Skyrider, perhaps without even realizing it, you just put the blame squarely back on the victim. Promiscuous nature? Really??? Do you think those boys who were victimized by the Penn State guy were sexually promiscuous? Was Excathedra? Was I? Were the other victims? And even if a victim had been sexually promiscuous, does that negate the right to pick and choose their partners? Does it void their right to say no and have that respected? And did you know, that often women who are sexually promiscuous are that way because they had already been victimized before adulthood??

And then you toss in high morals and character as being a reason someone isn't targeted. Again, I would suggest you think about that statement for a minute and understand just what you are suggesting. Because what you are suggesting is that people who are targetted by sexual predators lack high moral character. Bull..... The viticms didn't lack moral character, the predators did!!!

Lets move on to boundaries. You think you wife with her high moral character didn't have her boundaries moved? Was she in TWI? Did she stay in TWI for any length of time? You did yes? You climbed the ladder higher than I did. I can guarantee you anyone who lasted in TWI, anyone who made it through the Way Corps training or worked at HQ for any significant length of time had their boudnaries moved. Their sexual boundaries may have remained intact, but there were boundaries that were moved and at least some of those boundaries speak to moral character.

Those who melted someone else's face because of the mandates of TWI either had no moral character to begin with, or their boundaries were moved over time. Those who lived and breathed the words of Martindale or VPW either had no moral character to begin with, or their boundaries were moved over time.

Sexual predators do target specific people. They look for weaknesses and vulnerabilities that they can twist and turn and use against the victim. What those weaknesses and vulnerabilities are vary from predator to predator and victim to victim. But it is not about moral character or promiscuity. It is about vulnerability. You think you are invulnerable? You think your wife is? We all have weaknesses. We all have areas in our life that are vulnerable.

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As for VP, he's dead! Nobody is saying the Catholic church should be destroyed because of all their abuses and nobody should; they do a lot of good around the world. God will sort it all out eventually, but today is man's judgement. If someone decides they want to be Catholic, even if they know about the abuses, then that's their choice. End of discussion.

Well I would suspect somewhere in the great wide internet there are people who are saying the Catholic Church should be shut down. But this particular website isn't centered around the Catholic church, its centered around TWI.

Yes, VP is dead, but his legacy lives on in the doctrine he taught. He was not the only sexual predator in TWI. There were many of them, more than you will hear about here. The doctrine itself was rotten when it comes to this issue. Where were the teachings on how husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church? Where were the teachings on adultry? Where were the teachings on rape? (yes there are verses on that subject in the Bible). There were certainly plenty of teachings on how women needed to submit. There were even teachings about how when you are married your body is no longer your own and that it is the wife's job to meet her husband's need. But how are husband's to love their wives? TWI was pretty silent on that issue.

The issues isn't just what VPW did. The issue is the rottenness of the doctrine. Yes, there may have been some good doctrine in the mix that is worth hanging onto. But there was also some really, really bad garbage in that mix.

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Just like you can't put lipstick on a pig and make it pretty, you can't build a Christian ministry on the foundations of a sexual predator and educational fraud and plagiarist, no matter how many layers of whitewash you coat it with.

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"...there are people who are saying the Catholic Church should be shut down. But this particular website isn't centered around the Catholic church, its centered around TWI."

True. The internet has provided many, many outlets and portals for R C's to open up publicly about their religion and their own experience and faith that would be difficult if not impossible in person-one-to-one with others.

I believe the RC church will "never" change from the inside, from the Vatican. It may grind to a halt in some distant future but it will be the same organization it is today, more or less.

Likewise with the Way - it's a much different group and organization than it was 40 years ago but it appears it has the same underlying business case, so while the names may change, polices be reworded, lawsuits get settled out of court - not much at the core system level is probably going to change much.

However - RC or TWI - they should be required to be in compliance with the laws of the lands they function in and be acceptable to the societies they serve. Compliance is a must, acceptance is a moving target, public opinion will shift but it's is a factor.

I wouldn't shut the RC's down, point blank but I am a proponent of a moratorium on their church business activity in the U.S, with the exception of religious services and educational activities, while the Federal Government re investigates the church's practices and activities.

If the Fed's can investigate baseball players and their use of *gasp!* performance enhancing drugs and thus tearing at the fabric of the American Way of Life, they should be able to step in and start some formal actions against a group that collects tax-free money and uses it in part to finance what appears to be a well organized and implemented network for sexual abuse.

There are obviously some bad RC Apples in their leadership structure - root 'em out and let's help that church become a better safer place for it's members. Shoot - Vatican money could pay for it, just divert all that $ from gifts and donations and taxes not paid and put it towards improvements. Just makes sense, IMO.

If they won't do it and if they won't provide public documentation and regular audits to demonstrate they're fixing the problem and not hiding sex offenders and criminals - shut 'em down. The Vatican's the sovereign territory of the Holy See, it's a monarchy. Declare war. We do it over all sorts of things all over the globe - if their Pope-King continues to flip us and everyone else off - hey. Can you say "Saddam Hussein?".................how about "Khada-aaafy?".

Sound crazy? If it were my children suffering the effects of that perverted system it would sound pretty reasonable. Shut the m-fkers down. Now.

In TWI's case it's easy to see they're staying below the radar these days, waaaaay low.The same goes for them IMO. They've settled and kept the lawsuits on the down low and - it would appear - recurrences are either down or non-existent. They may be weird, jerks and a waste of time but if they keep within the laws of the land, comply with all local, state and federal regulations and laws that apply to them and don't p-o their local community too much, they have a right to exist. So do the R C's. In either case criminal activity shouldn't be tolerated. Of course.

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"In Kris' book she admitted to cheating on her husband with another guy in the area for a time because the other guy made her feel more loved. She wasn't a young girl; she was an adult. She knew VP was married. What? The cult made me do it? Pressure? Yes, but she could have refused. A woman she named Becky refused. So did GSC alum Valerie52."

John

None of this relieves Wierwille of the commitment he made when he took his marriage vows. He cheated on Mrs. W. and, it wasn't a one time thing. Wierwille was a habitual adulterer. The sexual history of his partners is irrelevant. Furthermore, he had a moral and professional obligation, as a Christian minister, to conduct himself in a manner becoming the position he held. He failed miserably in that regard. You can't blame his partners for that. That burden fell squarely on his shoulders alone.

Imagine this scenario:

Mrs. Johniam walks in on Mr. Johniam and one of his twig sisters doing the horizontal mambo.

Mrs. "What in the world is going on here????"

Mr. "Don't worry, Dear. She's had other affairs before this one."

Edited by waysider
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ohmygod there is too much on here for me to remember

but thank you abi for pointing out something very important -- people with good morals and good character do get targeted. skyrider, please think about this

I know some women who have spent years and hundreds of dollars on therapy because of these activities. Some killed themselves. What will it take to close down TWI?

HUNDREDS? lol

i just cry and don't know what to say about the suicides -- what a loss -- but what a relief for many as i see it speaking for myself

as far as MEASURING what is worse. that's about the worst question i ever heard

having been brought up roman catholic and my little brothers being sexually abused

oh, i don't even want to go on

but johniam, you really can't compare (or should i say judge) kris vs. the poor boy in the shower

you're out of your league, sorry

--

i agree with simon or socks or whoever said this ain't goin away and is this LIFE -- this EVIL LIFE -- what can i say? it's not just THE WAY

it's weird hearing all about penn state now -- reminds me of being a college way -- lol

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also, when i got on the coach with the cockroach geer and the slimy man of god, i am not sure what happened

i know i was drinking with veepee at a little table and the next thing i remember is seeing myself -- like i was floating on the ceiling -- and looking down at him and he was on top of me -- and we were in the back -- on his bed -- puke

i've always said it was like an out of body experience, but i don't know if it was because of drugs or because i went mentally bonkers -- not sure

i am sure about the next morning before arriving at new knoxville. somehow i had gotten over on the side of one of those pull-out little beds -- and he came over and stuck his (barf) in my face. i played possum

it was so awful

i should definitely point out there were quite a few "counseling" sessions before this when i talked to him about being sexually abused as a child -- he did say i needed to be loved the way god intended -- by a real man of god -- but i would book -- get out of there quick -- told him i could not handle it

man, that dark long lonely drive -- i also remember looking into these dead eyeballs (2) on top of me

what a friggin jerk

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Skyrider, perhaps without even realizing it, you just put the blame squarely back on the victim. Promiscuous nature? Really??? Do you think those boys who were victimized by the Penn State guy were sexually promiscuous? Was Excathedra? Was I? Were the other victims? And even if a victim had been sexually promiscuous, does that negate the right to pick and choose their partners? Does it void their right to say no and have that respected? And did you know, that often women who are sexually promiscuous are that way because they had already been victimized before adulthood??

And then you toss in high morals and character as being a reason someone isn't targeted. Again, I would suggest you think about that statement for a minute and understand just what you are suggesting. Because what you are suggesting is that people who are targetted by sexual predators lack high moral character. Bull..... The viticms didn't lack moral character, the predators did!!!

Lets move on to boundaries. You think you wife with her high moral character didn't have her boundaries moved? Was she in TWI? Did she stay in TWI for any length of time? You did yes? You climbed the ladder higher than I did. I can guarantee you anyone who lasted in TWI, anyone who made it through the Way Corps training or worked at HQ for any significant length of time had their boudnaries moved. Their sexual boundaries may have remained intact, but there were boundaries that were moved and at least some of those boundaries speak to moral character.

Those who melted someone else's face because of the mandates of TWI either had no moral character to begin with, or their boundaries were moved over time. Those who lived and breathed the words of Martindale or VPW either had no moral character to begin with, or their boundaries were moved over time.

Sexual predators do target specific people. They look for weaknesses and vulnerabilities that they can twist and turn and use against the victim. What those weaknesses and vulnerabilities are vary from predator to predator and victim to victim. But it is not about moral character or promiscuity. It is about vulnerability. You think you are invulnerable? You think your wife is? We all have weaknesses. We all have areas in our life that are vulnerable.

Points well taken......thanks.

Yes, my boundaries were moved.....as were others. I see your point and agree. It is about vulnerability.

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Points well taken......thanks.

Yes, my boundaries were moved.....as were others. I see your point and agree. It is about vulnerability.

Thanks Skyrider. I sort of assumed you didn't fully understand what you were implying when you said those things. I pointed them out to you, because overall you seem a decent enough guy. Typically, I don't waste much time arguing with people like Johniam, because he either can't get it or refuses to. But I thought you would get it.

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