I love to tithe and give special offerings. It's a Godly principle that works and helps keep me ever mindful that without the Lord I would have nothing. Without the Lord this place would collapse, and paying my tithe is a personal affirmation of that oh-so-dependent relationship.
The actual wickedness, in my opinion, is that veepee doctrinalized Godly principles without the Holy Spirit's annointing, and he used his ill-gotten gains in most despicable and definitely unChristian manner, and thereby he made God's blessings on us and for us appear detestable to us.
Reading the Bible, going to Church, and paying the tithe are not the problem. Doing these things or anything without the presence of the Holy Spirit is the problem. Anything done without the presence of the Holy Spirit leads to the hard heartedness which is without profit before God.
When Jesus is chastising the Pharisees for their hypocricy, he says that they should not abandon the tithe to do [Godly] judgment and the love of God. He said, "these things [judgment and the love of God] ought you to have done and not leave the other [tithes] undone. (Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42).
We bring the blessing of God when we do the things He says and we bring the wages of sin, which is death, to any area of our life when we ignore His direction and run into the brick wall by disobedience, in my opinion.
God does not promise a way free from troubles if we tithe. Troubles come upon us all, but the way we deal with them is the demonstration of our relationship with the Lord. There is a Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani who is currently in Iranian prison for becoming a Christian. He has been imprisoned for 2 1/2 years and was sentenced to death and pictures were distributed over the Internet showing him standing before the gallows ready to be hanged. However, the latest news of him states that his son spent his birthday with him on April 2, 2012, and then on April 11, he spent his birthday with his wife and two sons (story here)
TWI ignored (among countless things) the lesson learned by Job and others in the Bible -- that God does things in His way on His timetable, and a trouble free life is not a testimony of godliness.
A legacy of godliness, such as was left by Chuck Colson, BG Leonard, JE Stiles, Bullinger, Norman Vincent Peale, Thomas Kinkade, and so many many others, including the nameless ones who lived their lives in the presence of the Lord Jesus but never stood before crowds or wrote famous books.
veepee and his wickedness will be resolved by the Lord, and, in my opinion, the task before us is not to try to judge veepee -- that job has been (or will be soon depending upon how the timetable of things is played out) performed most perfectly by the Lord.
It behooves us, rather, to make sure that the life we liveswill allow us to stand before the Lord unashamed when we meet Him face to face. That's what I try to do.
The key word here is "compulsory". Giving/sharing of one's own volition is a good thing. We learned that all the way back in kindergarten. But, in PFAL, we were taught that it's a "mandatory requirement" for anyone desiring abundance in their life. And, we were taught that this "requirement" is set forth in the Bible. Yes, the Bible does talk about giving. It talks about the tithe. It provides examples of people who tithed and gave out of thankfulness. What it doesn't do, though, is tell us that it's a "compulsory requirement." Wierwille (and lots of other religious sorts) have twisted this thing to make it say something contrary to what it really says. The important thing to remember, in my opinion, is that Wierwille had a plan. His plan was to use the PFAL series to recruit as many people as he could, locked into a system whereby they consistently and routinely gave part of their income to The Way. And, it worked. I still remember, after leaving The Way, wondering where I was going to send my tithe. "I have to send it somewhere or I'll be outside God's hedge of protection.".... That's how much this idea of compulsory giving had become part of my thinking.
Yeah.....where compulsory walked hand-in-hand with hypocrisy.
Where was the compassion? the giving? the fervent prayers of righteous leaders? hospital visits? leading by example? Twi trustees were the modern-day Pharisees lording over God's heritage. Jesus called out the Pharisees and elucidated their traditions, their wanting to be seen in the marketplaces, their oppression.
Calling out twi's hypocrisy IS doing the Lord's work. I believe that we have every right to expose THEIR evil. Now, is this my driving passion, every day? Nope. Not at all. But....the scriptures give us plenty of examples of men and women who called out the evil amongst them.
Different callings, different functions, different passions.
Where you find a godly endeavor that you believe in.........GIVE CHEERFULLY. :)
Abundant sharing ... "I just love to take abundant sharings. Not that we need the money, but they need the blessing. And the money doesn't hurt us to have so we can move it to others get blessed."
If only ...!
Others... would that be "others without exception," or "others with distinction"?
Abundant sharing ... "I just love to take abundant sharings. Not that we need the money, but they need the blessing. And the money doesn't hurt us to have so we can move it to others get blessed."
Yeah......WHEN and WHERE did twi ever "move it to others?"
WOWs paid their own way.
Corps and corps sponsors paid tuition dues.
Book sales, mag subscriptions, tape sales, event registrations, roa tickets.
Millions and millions of tithing pouring into twi......to buy motorcoaches, planes, harleys.
And now......twi hoardes away some $54 Million in assets/investments/property.
Oh, that's right.........some tithe money HELPED WITH ABORTIONS. <_<
Some of this money did go to support TWI in Zaire - no idea how much or for how long. Or who.
And some was used for a "scholarship" for one of my fellow International Corps and paid for everything that the rest of us had to raise sponsorship for.
Don't know about anything for any other years.
The amount expended on the scholarship would be minimal, really, compared with the total amount coming in.
As to supporting Zaireans in their famine state - lots of Biblical support for helping fellow believers during times of drought or famine - that is what the money is for!!!! Not for hoarding in the bank.
Luke 12:
15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth .
16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying , The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully : 17 And he thought within himself, saying , What shall I do , because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? 18 And he said , This will I do : I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods ["We'll stash it all in investment accounts"]. 19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry .
20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? [compare Gen3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die."]
21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God [and God's people].
I confidently believe in the tithe, as I have said previously here and in a similar discussion in the Doctrinal section. In my opinion the tithe and special offerings provide for me a way to become part of such wonderful works that to me are providing God's hand of kindness into the world,
Today I received this wonderful explanation of the tithe (at least I think it's a wonderful explanation), and I thought someone would enjoy it, and additionally I trusted that this would provide an alternative viewpoint to that of the majority opinion. So very thankful I can still have an opinion. :)
This is from a Messianic Rabbi (Jewish Rabbi who believes that Jesus is the true Messiah spoken about in the Old Testament -- at least I think that's a reasonable interpretation). He sends out a daily email with Jewish perspective of Biblical concepts.
Anyway, here goes:
The Lord's Shovel
August 1, 2013
"Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year." — Deuteronomy 14:22
The Torah portion for this week is Re'eh, from Deuteronomy 11:26–16:17, and the Haftorah from Isaiah 54:11–55:5.
There is a story about an ambitious young man who tells his pastor that he has promised to tithe his income. Together, the pastor and the man pray for God to bless his career. At that time, the man was making $40 a week and contributed $4 to the church. As time went by, the young man became increasingly successful to the point where he was tithing $500 a week. At that point, the man called up the pastor to see if he could be released from his tithing promise as it was too costly now. The pastor replied, "I don't see how you can be released from your promise, but we can ask God to reduce your income back to $40 a week – then you'd have no problem tithing $4."
God judges what we give by what we keep.
In this week's reading we are commanded to give away at least 10 percent of what we earn. Jewish tradition teaches that we should give away more than that – up to 20 percent of our earnings (but no more). While that may seem difficult and counter-productive to someone trying to make ends meet, the Sages offer this encouragement. Those who want to become wealthy should tithe their money. The Sages add that it's impossible to become poor from giving to charity. On the contrary, they say, the more you give your money away, the more you receive.
How can that be true?
A prestigious man was once asked how he could give away so much money to charity and yet still be so wealthy, and this is what he replied: "Oh, as I shovel it out, He shovels it in, and the Lord has a much bigger shovel!"
When God sees that we use our money as it is meant to be used, He blesses us with more. Our contributions are essentially our best investments. Perhaps this is what the verse in Proverbs 22 means when it says, "A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor" (v.9). So in actuality, even more than the rich man is helping the poor man, the poor man is helping the rich man – because he gives him an opportunity to help himself and earn great rewards.
Friends, we are so grateful for all of the contributions that so many good people from around the world have contributed to the many purposes of The Fellowship. We pray that as you bless Israel, God will bless you. We trust that whatever you give to help others will be returned to you with the Lord's much bigger shovel.
I some times think back about why I got out. I got out long before most of you ever heard of the way. They never checked how. Much i gave. Probably. Because I gave more than most. What bothered me was the dateing control. Why do you date outside TWI. The more they tried to control the more I resisted. It seems that single guys who had good jobs were in short supply.
I some times think back about why I got out. I got out long before most of you ever heard of the way. They never checked how. Much i gave. Probably. Because I gave more than most. What bothered me was the dateing control. Why do you date outside TWI. The more they tried to control the more I resisted. It seems that single guys who had good jobs were in short supply.
The same thing applied for guys, too.
If you were an unbeliever you could ask out anybody you wanted to but, if you were a believer you had "these 5" to pick from. :(
(That might be too far off-topic. Maybe I should start another thread.)
In a minor response to the first post regarding the blue sheets. While TWI may have used them to monitor and confront your giving the actual record keeping that it entailed is also required by the US IRS and many state governments as well, so I can't fault them for the record keeping ...just how they used it.
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Kit Sober
I love to tithe and give special offerings. It's a Godly principle that works and helps keep me ever mindful that without the Lord I would have nothing. Without the Lord this place would collapse, and paying my tithe is a personal affirmation of that oh-so-dependent relationship.
The actual wickedness, in my opinion, is that veepee doctrinalized Godly principles without the Holy Spirit's annointing, and he used his ill-gotten gains in most despicable and definitely unChristian manner, and thereby he made God's blessings on us and for us appear detestable to us.
Reading the Bible, going to Church, and paying the tithe are not the problem. Doing these things or anything without the presence of the Holy Spirit is the problem. Anything done without the presence of the Holy Spirit leads to the hard heartedness which is without profit before God.
When Jesus is chastising the Pharisees for their hypocricy, he says that they should not abandon the tithe to do [Godly] judgment and the love of God. He said, "these things [judgment and the love of God] ought you to have done and not leave the other [tithes] undone. (Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42).
We bring the blessing of God when we do the things He says and we bring the wages of sin, which is death, to any area of our life when we ignore His direction and run into the brick wall by disobedience, in my opinion.
God does not promise a way free from troubles if we tithe. Troubles come upon us all, but the way we deal with them is the demonstration of our relationship with the Lord. There is a Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani who is currently in Iranian prison for becoming a Christian. He has been imprisoned for 2 1/2 years and was sentenced to death and pictures were distributed over the Internet showing him standing before the gallows ready to be hanged. However, the latest news of him states that his son spent his birthday with him on April 2, 2012, and then on April 11, he spent his birthday with his wife and two sons (story here)
TWI ignored (among countless things) the lesson learned by Job and others in the Bible -- that God does things in His way on His timetable, and a trouble free life is not a testimony of godliness.
A legacy of godliness, such as was left by Chuck Colson, BG Leonard, JE Stiles, Bullinger, Norman Vincent Peale, Thomas Kinkade, and so many many others, including the nameless ones who lived their lives in the presence of the Lord Jesus but never stood before crowds or wrote famous books.
veepee and his wickedness will be resolved by the Lord, and, in my opinion, the task before us is not to try to judge veepee -- that job has been (or will be soon depending upon how the timetable of things is played out) performed most perfectly by the Lord.
It behooves us, rather, to make sure that the life we liveswill allow us to stand before the Lord unashamed when we meet Him face to face. That's what I try to do.
Edited by Kit SoberLink to comment
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waysider
The key word here is "compulsory". Giving/sharing of one's own volition is a good thing. We learned that all the way back in kindergarten. But, in PFAL, we were taught that it's a "mandatory requirement" for anyone desiring abundance in their life. And, we were taught that this "requirement" is set forth in the Bible. Yes, the Bible does talk about giving. It talks about the tithe. It provides examples of people who tithed and gave out of thankfulness. What it doesn't do, though, is tell us that it's a "compulsory requirement." Wierwille (and lots of other religious sorts) have twisted this thing to make it say something contrary to what it really says. The important thing to remember, in my opinion, is that Wierwille had a plan. His plan was to use the PFAL series to recruit as many people as he could, locked into a system whereby they consistently and routinely gave part of their income to The Way. And, it worked. I still remember, after leaving The Way, wondering where I was going to send my tithe. "I have to send it somewhere or I'll be outside God's hedge of protection.".... That's how much this idea of compulsory giving had become part of my thinking.
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excathedra
yeah you live in the grace administration which means you should give MORE than 10% WFT? lol
it's your problen if your heat gets turned off or you eat popcorn for supper
as long as these things don't happen to vee sicko pee. where did he abudantly share? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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waysider
Where did ANY of them share?....(not counting the "sharing" they did at at night-owls)
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skyrider
Yeah.....where compulsory walked hand-in-hand with hypocrisy.
Where was the compassion? the giving? the fervent prayers of righteous leaders? hospital visits? leading by example? Twi trustees were the modern-day Pharisees lording over God's heritage. Jesus called out the Pharisees and elucidated their traditions, their wanting to be seen in the marketplaces, their oppression.
Calling out twi's hypocrisy IS doing the Lord's work. I believe that we have every right to expose THEIR evil. Now, is this my driving passion, every day? Nope. Not at all. But....the scriptures give us plenty of examples of men and women who called out the evil amongst them.
Different callings, different functions, different passions.
Where you find a godly endeavor that you believe in.........GIVE CHEERFULLY. :)
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excathedra
scroll over to 8:08
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Twinky
Abundant sharing ... "I just love to take abundant sharings. Not that we need the money, but they need the blessing. And the money doesn't hurt us to have so we can move it to others get blessed."
If only ...!
Others... would that be "others without exception," or "others with distinction"?
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waysider
It's always your own fault when something doesn't work.....That must be the greatest secret in the world Way today.
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skyrider
Yeah......WHEN and WHERE did twi ever "move it to others?"
WOWs paid their own way.
Corps and corps sponsors paid tuition dues.
Book sales, mag subscriptions, tape sales, event registrations, roa tickets.
Millions and millions of tithing pouring into twi......to buy motorcoaches, planes, harleys.
And now......twi hoardes away some $54 Million in assets/investments/property.
Oh, that's right.........some tithe money HELPED WITH ABORTIONS. <_<
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WordWolf
BINGO.
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Twinky
Some of this money did go to support TWI in Zaire - no idea how much or for how long. Or who.
And some was used for a "scholarship" for one of my fellow International Corps and paid for everything that the rest of us had to raise sponsorship for.
Don't know about anything for any other years.
The amount expended on the scholarship would be minimal, really, compared with the total amount coming in.
As to supporting Zaireans in their famine state - lots of Biblical support for helping fellow believers during times of drought or famine - that is what the money is for!!!! Not for hoarding in the bank.
Luke 12:
15 And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth .
16 And he spake a parable unto them, saying , The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully : 17 And he thought within himself, saying , What shall I do , because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? 18 And he said , This will I do : I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods ["We'll stash it all in investment accounts"]. 19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry .
20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? [compare Gen3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die."]
21 So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God [and God's people].
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Yea, Pinochio, except it only helped you, Ebeneezer Scrooge!
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krys
Did anyone besides me have a wave of nausea at the sound of that voice again ????
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Kit Sober
Face too ugly to look at. I could not bring myself to play it.
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Rejoice
MULTIPLE WAVES of nausea!!
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
God, after hearing that diatribe, I may start drinking Drambuie
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skyrider
Need to ADD....
WOWs spent year of canvassing neighborhoods for pfal registration.
Fellow-Laborers and volunteers worked near Limb properties to upkeep grounds and help at ministry events.
Corps worked 4-hour workday schedules -- 200 X 4 X 2(yr) = 1600 (hrs)
Interim Corps worked for $75 a month (plus room/board)
Adv Class grads and Set-up Crews helped to run pfal classes.
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Twi was built on deception, manipulation and exploitation.
Twi does NOT assist food drives, homeless shelters, abuse programs, hospital visits.
What "charitable" work does twi DO that qualifies them in non-profit sector?
Classes, book sales, events, mag & tape subscriptions, Adv Class Specials = profits.
To quote pfal back at them.....twi is SO DEAD because it has all inlets (abs/profits) and no outlets (charitable service).
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OldSkool
Listening to Wierwille now, his inconsistencies are glaring.
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Keith
Compulsory anything is usally not done from the heart and it's the heart that matteres.
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chockfull
IMO TWI plays upon that phrase.
Let's look at the hearts of those building systems to promote compulsory actions. They are using others. Trading in flesh.
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Kit Sober
I confidently believe in the tithe, as I have said previously here and in a similar discussion in the Doctrinal section. In my opinion the tithe and special offerings provide for me a way to become part of such wonderful works that to me are providing God's hand of kindness into the world,
Today I received this wonderful explanation of the tithe (at least I think it's a wonderful explanation), and I thought someone would enjoy it, and additionally I trusted that this would provide an alternative viewpoint to that of the majority opinion. So very thankful I can still have an opinion. :)
This is from a Messianic Rabbi (Jewish Rabbi who believes that Jesus is the true Messiah spoken about in the Old Testament -- at least I think that's a reasonable interpretation). He sends out a daily email with Jewish perspective of Biblical concepts.
Anyway, here goes:
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ex70sHouston
I some times think back about why I got out. I got out long before most of you ever heard of the way. They never checked how. Much i gave. Probably. Because I gave more than most. What bothered me was the dateing control. Why do you date outside TWI. The more they tried to control the more I resisted. It seems that single guys who had good jobs were in short supply.
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waysider
The same thing applied for guys, too.
If you were an unbeliever you could ask out anybody you wanted to but, if you were a believer you had "these 5" to pick from. :(
(That might be too far off-topic. Maybe I should start another thread.)
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Keith
In a minor response to the first post regarding the blue sheets. While TWI may have used them to monitor and confront your giving the actual record keeping that it entailed is also required by the US IRS and many state governments as well, so I can't fault them for the record keeping ...just how they used it.
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