Your post got me to see a weird juxtaposition – contrasting the “ministry” of vp and Jesus’ ministry in the gospels. In the opening of the PFAL class when vp was expounding on John 10:10 / the more abundant life – vp said if God’s Word was not reliable in John 10:10 – if Jesus lied to us - then how could it be reliable in other places – in other words - how could we trust it – (it was something along those lines – it’s been a long time since I actually listened to PFAL)…
What if a similar criterion could be applied to “the teacher”….(cough – ahem)…vp. If he lied to us about PFAL coming from all his own research - or he lied to us when he said God audibly told him He would teach vp the Word like it has not be known since the 1st century…then why should we trust him on anything else?!?!
A similar criterion CAN be applied to vpw and his false claims. SINCE he is a proven liar about how pfal was from only his research and divine revelation, and SINCE he lied to us entirely about God Almighty making impressive-sounding, EMPTY promises to him, THEN we have no reason to trust the alleged "teacher" on anything else. If there is any substance, it's not due to him, and if there's falsehood, it receives no legitimacy in proceeding from his mouth and pen.
Sure is a shame when people confuse the contents of pfal-which is filled with errors and stems from vpw's plagiarisms and limited understanding- with the contents of Holy Scripture. We've had our share of posters who've done that over the years, even one who thought vpw's books and classes were SUPERIOR to Holy Scripture and SUPERSEDED it.
Edited by WordWolf Correcting the system's inconsistent formatting.
I wanted to add something to what Waysider and WordWolf said - it is very revealing to look back now on the teaching methodology that vp modeled – especially in live or recorded teachings that I received in the way corps. If the keys to the Bible’s interpretation presented in PFAL were all that important - you’d think he would have exemplified a proficient use of those keys. If PFAL was truly a culmination of all his hard work and years of research – you’d think he would have proudly gone over those illuminating keys again and again and again – as a master teacher would trying to instill those ideas in students’ minds.
However such was not the case with vp. He was grossly inept in the methodology of biblical interpretation – be it his amateurish twisting of the biblical languages or just his bungled reasoning. Was it in Advanced Class ’79 that vp said when God would reveal something to him He would make a word in the passage appear real big. It is sad that this idea of God revealing things to him was what gave his teachings any merit in the minds of many followers.
And so it was – whether in live or recorded teachings by vp – what stands out as far as the method of shedding light on any particularly thorny verse of scripture was what vp thought it meant. Even wally C teaching our corps the book of Timothy would often refer to vp - - what vp said about a passage. Wally even bragged about vp telling him before he went over to Germany to look at ancient Greek new testament texts at some research facility – that he should look for a certain wording of a text to prove vp was right on something.
On 3/25/2016 at 9:15 AM, skyrider said:
Oftentimes, around here....someone will say that most all the stuff at GSC is like 30-years/ 40-years old.
What about any new information on twi? Well......maybe because its all refried beans?
So quick to scrutinize for an opportunity to criticize, you are.
Missed the "chuck the whole thing" parody, you did!
Or might it have been your presentation of the "parody" that's responsible for readers not picking up on it? Nah, that can't be it. You'd never blame someone else for something you're responsible for, right? ;)
So quick to scrutinize for an opportunity to criticize, you are.
Missed the "chuck the whole thing" parody, you did!
I figured you were going somewhere with it, but you were far too opaque. I'm sure YOU got your own joke, but remember that the rest of us can't read your mind, so any point or joke stands or falls on what is actually typed.
As long-time GSC attendees know, he fumbled that one, as well.
The word "learning" in "for our learning" is the same word rendered "doctrine" in
"all Scripture is God-Breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
Then again, while we're on the subject, he fumbled the "thoroughly" thing also. If he'd ended his point at "people don't read what is written", he would have stayed on sound ground. However, he INVENTED the "definition" of "throughly" that he used. In 1611, the word was an alternate rendering of "thoroughly" and carried the exact same meaning to the readers of the KJV either way. (That's off the "Actual Errors in PFAL" thing, from way, way back.)
"Fast forward to a fourth generation being born. Numerous requests from insiders to go on Staff and change from within. By this time, my life had changed. The grind of finally getting (and keeping) a real job meant hard work. I began to feel like everything in the ministry was a motion. Same old collaterals. The articles in the magazine were SOOOO predictable, as were the overly scripted services."
REALITY HITS HOME.......there is nothing like finances, family and career choices
staring you in the face and all you get from twi is "renew your mind" tripe.
That renew your mind s--t got old very quickly for me. Today I am a Disabled Veteran, and dealing with s--t I should have dealt with 50 years ago; F-TWI!
I cannot speak to physical harm or violence, but the verbal intimidation and servitude was right up there.
I was once brow-beaten for 10 straight minutes about wearing jeans as part of a set-up crew. We were cleaning bathrooms. That had already been cleaned. But casually nice meant khakis, and God wants you to clean the crappers with Dockers.
One of a thousand such examples. But physical, not in my post-fog experience. Everything was set up to show the caste system and make you want to move up the ladder and gain more control. Coordinate something or someone.
CD, I am so happy that you got out of TWI! Even back in the 1980's, TWI tried to control people's lives; I was a free spirit, so I didn't always get along with leadership; I wanted to live my life my way, not TWI's way. I guess I wasn't "sold out" enough for some of the leadership.
As it turned out, I had an affinity for being hailed into dictor's office over the loudspeakers in the courtyard for personal reproof and correction meetings frequently during my first 4 months in the corpse.
I don't think DWBH still posts here, but I'm so grateful for all his contributions.
Did anyone else experience this? It reminds me of getting a call over the intercom to report to the principal's office in middle school or high school. It also reminds me of summer camp where an announcement would be made over the loud speakers if one's mother called or a package arrived.
My question is: what was the script? "DWBH, report to the doctor's office, immediately!"
This just cracks me up. Anyone have any insight?
Edited by Nathan_Jr VPW is not AMOG, TMOG or T7TMOG.
He doesn't. Yes, he made some wonderful contributions.
But he got to the place where he couldn't moderate himself.
On other platforms, he still attacks those who moderate GSC. If you pray, he might possibly benefit from your prayers.
Sorry to hear this. Endeavoring to make sense of the evil fraud that is vpw and twi can trigger trauma responses that are as malignant as the crimes suffered - the persistent rotting fruit. It's a trap. I do pray, and I will.
Sorry to hear this. Endeavoring to make sense of the evil fraud that is vpw and twi can trigger trauma responses that are as malignant as the crimes suffered - the persistent rotting fruit. It's a trap. I do pray, and I will.
Please do not draw any inferences about the hows or whys. I really can't get into it.
I'm almost halfway thru the book Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood and the Prison of Belief by Lawrence Wright, and then I happened upon this thread. And I thought the similarities I found around pages 177 to 182 were worth posting. I guess there's only so many ways one can try to manipulate and control people – maybe all cult leaders think alike…. I don't know…
….anyway wanted to mention a few points Wright makes that go along the theme of this thread…some of Wright's points (listed below) refer to the work of Robert Jay Lifton a young American psychiatrist who began studying victims of what Chinese Communists called thought reform:
Dogma is promoted as incontestable (or as Wright puts it scientifically incontestable).
Resistance is not just immoral; it's illogical and unscientific.
Language is constricted by thought-terminating clichés; complex issues are compressed into brief, definitive-sounding phrases, easily memorized and easily expressed.
The combination of enforced logic and clichéd discourse creates a kind of melodrama – formulaic thoughts and handicapped language substitute for real emotions and hamper a complex understanding of human nature.
When I began to use some newly found critical thinking skills to look at the teaching of TWI and the Bible, things turned topsy-turvy for me. As my unravelling went, I became aware that the indoctrination of TWI had limited my thinking in awful ways but wasn't exactly sure how. The last point and next to the last point above spoke loudly to me. Thx, T-Bone.
On 6/15/2016 at 12:33 AM, DontWorryBeHappy said:
But, by the time of my first year in-Rez, it was already changing. As it turned out, I had an affinity for being hailed into dictor's office over the loudspeakers in the courtyard for personal reproof and correction meetings frequently during my first 4 months in the corpse. The first one, I entered his office smoking a cigarette and sat down without asking permission. OMG!....you'd think the world was ending! Dictor screams at me, "Stand up!".
Would you walk into the office of President Nixon smoking a .... cigarette?". I quickly shot back, "I wouldn't wanna be anywhere near old tricky dick's office VP!" I was then ordered at top vein-popping volume, to get the .... outta his sight and never call him "VP" again! Never got around to yelling at me for whatever he called me in for.
But, I began to see that malignant narcissistic delusional grandeur of dictor as the man-o-gawd. Comparing himself to Nixon as worthy of the same care, concern, respect and treatment for himself as the most important man on the Earth.....the greatest Apostle since Paul in the first centur, expositor of the great mystery, whose "specialty" was "the holy spirit field" which he co-opted and blatantNtly plagiarized from J.E. Stiles, B.G. Leonard, E.W. Bullinger, Kenyon, Pillai, Lamsa, Glenn Clark, Rufus Mosely, Starr Daily, Oswald Chambers, Rosalind Rinker, F.F. Bruce, Charles Welch, to name a few of his original researchers.
Seems that VPW's attitude was incorporated into those early corpse real well because of all the close, personal contact they had with him. That episode with DWBH was similar to one I had with a 3rd corpse, KF. It was early summer 1974 and after 2 months of reading the Gospels solo ( I had started on my own in the evenings at 19 years old in my quest for the Truth) I was ready and yearned for fellowship. An old friend came into town and we went to a Twig. I loved it! And best of all, they were teaching from the Bible. I was learning as fast as I could and loved it. But the control mechanisms had already started to be put into place- the first was "Be on time." Sometime later on in July we had a Limb meeting at the Limb home in my city. There were about 30 of us there, and we were all seated in folding chairs that were all lined up. KF walked in and got behind the little podium, and some people stood up but most did not including me. I was really happy to be there and innocent and wide open and KF proceeded to reprove us for 10 minutes for not respecting the word of god that he represented so stand up next time. I felt terrible. I was devastated. I had not meant to insult God. Here I was all happy and KF terrorized us.
I can't believe I submitted to that garbage. Thx and Peace.
The attempts to pull that on the field had varied results. With New Yorkers, it often had the same results as kicking a bale of cotton- the impression faded the instant you stopped. :)
Once, I visited hq in a weekend visiting group. One guy in residence took the slightest pretext to shoehorn in some "reproof". I had said something he hadn't noticed- because he didn't want to. He replied as if I'd challenged the Bible (or even twi doctrine, but it was unrelated to either.) I would have replied, but he was clearly wound up. So, calmly, I let him get where he was going, and at the end, flatly asked him "Been saving that speech up all week?" Oddly, he relaxed after that- I think he was trying to fit in to the situation at hq when I replied like a normal New Yorker when faced with pretension. In hindsight, the whole thing raised some questions, but at the time, I had other things on my mind.
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WordWolf
A similar criterion CAN be applied to vpw and his false claims. SINCE he is a proven liar about how pfal was from only his research and divine revelation, and SINCE he lied to us entirely about God Almighty making impressive-sounding, EMPTY promises to him, THEN we have no reason to trust the alleged "teacher" on anything else. If there is any substance, it's not due to him, and if there's falsehood, it receives no legitimacy in proceeding from his mouth and pen.
Sure is a shame when people confuse the contents of pfal-which is filled with errors and stems from vpw's plagiarisms and limited understanding- with the contents of Holy Scripture. We've had our share of posters who've done that over the years, even one who thought vpw's books and classes were SUPERIOR to Holy Scripture and SUPERSEDED it.
Edited by WordWolfCorrecting the system's inconsistent formatting.
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T-Bone
I wanted to add something to what Waysider and WordWolf said - it is very revealing to look back now on the teaching methodology that vp modeled – especially in live or recorded teachings that I received in the way corps. If the keys to the Bible’s interpretation presented in PFAL were all that important - you’d think he would have exemplified a proficient use of those keys. If PFAL was truly a culmination of all his hard work and years of research – you’d think he would have proudly gone over those illuminating keys again and again and again – as a master teacher would trying to instill those ideas in students’ minds.
However such was not the case with vp. He was grossly inept in the methodology of biblical interpretation – be it his amateurish twisting of the biblical languages or just his bungled reasoning. Was it in Advanced Class ’79 that vp said when God would reveal something to him He would make a word in the passage appear real big. It is sad that this idea of God revealing things to him was what gave his teachings any merit in the minds of many followers.
And so it was – whether in live or recorded teachings by vp – what stands out as far as the method of shedding light on any particularly thorny verse of scripture was what vp thought it meant. Even wally C teaching our corps the book of Timothy would often refer to vp - - what vp said about a passage. Wally even bragged about vp telling him before he went over to Germany to look at ancient Greek new testament texts at some research facility – that he should look for a certain wording of a text to prove vp was right on something.
The PFAL class and collaterals are merely support materials to reinforce the idea that it’s God to vp to you the dope of glory.
Edited by T-Bonetypos and clarity
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TLC
So quick to scrutinize for an opportunity to criticize, you are.
Missed the "chuck the whole thing" parody, you did!
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Rocky
Or might it have been your presentation of the "parody" that's responsible for readers not picking up on it? Nah, that can't be it. You'd never blame someone else for something you're responsible for, right? ;)
Edited by RockyLink to comment
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Bolshevik
John 10:10 is part of the four gospels and not addressed to the Grace Administration.
Therefore PFAL is discredited because VPW got "to whom" incorrect. And getting "to whom" correct is something we learned about in PFAL.
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TLC
Ah, so someone gets it... without getting their tail twisted or nose bent out of joint.
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shortfuse
But it is still "for our learning" - ON SNAP!
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Bolshevik
Interpret the verse and eat it too, right there in the verse.
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WordWolf
I figured you were going somewhere with it, but you were far too opaque. I'm sure YOU got your own joke, but remember that the rest of us can't read your mind, so any point or joke stands or falls on what is actually typed.
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WordWolf
As long-time GSC attendees know, he fumbled that one, as well.
The word "learning" in "for our learning" is the same word rendered "doctrine" in
"all Scripture is God-Breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."
Then again, while we're on the subject, he fumbled the "thoroughly" thing also. If he'd ended his point at "people don't read what is written", he would have stayed on sound ground. However, he INVENTED the "definition" of "throughly" that he used. In 1611, the word was an alternate rendering of "thoroughly" and carried the exact same meaning to the readers of the KJV either way. (That's off the "Actual Errors in PFAL" thing, from way, way back.)
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Rocky
I can't wait until Penworks' memoir, "Undertow" is published. Lot's of insight to VeePee's awkward "research" skills, I suspect.
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Grace Valerie Claire
That renew your mind s--t got old very quickly for me. Today I am a Disabled Veteran, and dealing with s--t I should have dealt with 50 years ago; F-TWI!
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Grace Valerie Claire
CD, I am so happy that you got out of TWI! Even back in the 1980's, TWI tried to control people's lives; I was a free spirit, so I didn't always get along with leadership; I wanted to live my life my way, not TWI's way. I guess I wasn't "sold out" enough for some of the leadership.
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WordWolf
(bump)
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Nathan_Jr
I don't think DWBH still posts here, but I'm so grateful for all his contributions.
Did anyone else experience this? It reminds me of getting a call over the intercom to report to the principal's office in middle school or high school. It also reminds me of summer camp where an announcement would be made over the loud speakers if one's mother called or a package arrived.
My question is: what was the script? "DWBH, report to the doctor's office, immediately!"
This just cracks me up. Anyone have any insight?
Edited by Nathan_JrVPW is not AMOG, TMOG or T7TMOG.
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Rocky
He doesn't. Yes, he made some wonderful contributions.
But he got to the place where he couldn't moderate himself.
On other platforms, he still attacks those who moderate GSC. If you pray, he might possibly benefit from your prayers.
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Nathan_Jr
Sorry to hear this. Endeavoring to make sense of the evil fraud that is vpw and twi can trigger trauma responses that are as malignant as the crimes suffered - the persistent rotting fruit. It's a trap. I do pray, and I will.
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Rocky
Please do not draw any inferences about the hows or whys. I really can't get into it.
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modcat5
Let's not discuss someone who cannot respond. Change the subject please.
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engine
When I began to use some newly found critical thinking skills to look at the teaching of TWI and the Bible, things turned topsy-turvy for me. As my unravelling went, I became aware that the indoctrination of TWI had limited my thinking in awful ways but wasn't exactly sure how. The last point and next to the last point above spoke loudly to me. Thx, T-Bone.
Seems that VPW's attitude was incorporated into those early corpse real well because of all the close, personal contact they had with him. That episode with DWBH was similar to one I had with a 3rd corpse, KF. It was early summer 1974 and after 2 months of reading the Gospels solo ( I had started on my own in the evenings at 19 years old in my quest for the Truth) I was ready and yearned for fellowship. An old friend came into town and we went to a Twig. I loved it! And best of all, they were teaching from the Bible. I was learning as fast as I could and loved it. But the control mechanisms had already started to be put into place- the first was "Be on time." Sometime later on in July we had a Limb meeting at the Limb home in my city. There were about 30 of us there, and we were all seated in folding chairs that were all lined up. KF walked in and got behind the little podium, and some people stood up but most did not including me. I was really happy to be there and innocent and wide open and KF proceeded to reprove us for 10 minutes for not respecting the word of god that he represented so stand up next time. I felt terrible. I was devastated. I had not meant to insult God. Here I was all happy and KF terrorized us.
I can't believe I submitted to that garbage. Thx and Peace.
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WordWolf
The attempts to pull that on the field had varied results. With New Yorkers, it often had the same results as kicking a bale of cotton- the impression faded the instant you stopped. :)
Once, I visited hq in a weekend visiting group. One guy in residence took the slightest pretext to shoehorn in some "reproof". I had said something he hadn't noticed- because he didn't want to. He replied as if I'd challenged the Bible (or even twi doctrine, but it was unrelated to either.) I would have replied, but he was clearly wound up. So, calmly, I let him get where he was going, and at the end, flatly asked him "Been saving that speech up all week?" Oddly, he relaxed after that- I think he was trying to fit in to the situation at hq when I replied like a normal New Yorker when faced with pretension. In hindsight, the whole thing raised some questions, but at the time, I had other things on my mind.
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