9.We do not believe that “faith” is a force generated by the human mind that automatically brings either good or bad into one’s life.
To me, that's a very bizarre statement, and reads like it's designed to appeal to the ex-Wayfer crowd. I talk to lots and lots of Christians of all stripe and no one is
struggling with or promoting the idea that faith is a force generated by the human mind that yada yada....
Faith is trust, and confidence in, about, towards something. "Pistis/Pistueo" in the Bible, a firm conviction, belief, a trust -
IN SOMETHING. The bang is in the buck.
My exposure to the teachings of VPW in and around PFAL included what certainly sounded like him teaching "believing" as some kind of tangible "thing" that would produce a result when it was at a certain level. "Build up your believing", got used a lot in that context, and the very idea of Christians as "believers" was both their belief in doctrine as well as their "believing walks", what they did with those doctrines. If you "weren't believing" it had a sense of your tank being half full - like you were convinced but not REALLY convinced, even though you may have done the actual thing that needed to be done and didn't get the "results".....because you weren't "believing"....even though you were. It was kind of like a dog chasing it's tail though and every once in awhile it bites it and stops then starts again..........meanwhile all it really amounted to was trying to saturate your thinking and resulting actions with enough of what God instructs you to do so that your "faith" will then be towards Him. It used to seem sometimes like VPW actually repudiated God's grace when he's teach people to not rely on it - when people like me were thinking "fuk, I rely on it all the time, I NEED IT!!!!"..................and I guess what I think he really meant was don't be a lazy ass and avoid doing the work you're supposed to and expect someone else to do it for you. But they're not really the same things, that's not relying on "grace">
The trust and confidence of pistis/pistueo has significance in the Bible because it's GOD WERE' TRUSTING IN. Pneuma hagion is HIS GIFT, TO US.
VPW was trying to build a generation of Uber Christians, The True Believers, who knew THE TRUTH and would WALK IT like it hasn't been walked since the first century.
In fact, many of his early protege's tanked and were mostly just successful at being good employees and mimics of him in the family business. He died of cancer, alone but for a sidekick, pushing aways all others who might have actually given a crap about him as a person.
I'd rather not exit this temporal crust that way.
I can say without any doubt whatsoever and complete confidence that today, the greatest cargoes of life come in over seas of grace, in the vast ocean of God's eternal Will. Two words I caught in PFAL that I hold to today are "alignment and harmony".....rather than build an egocentric prideful bucket of pig shit over MY BELIEVING and all that I DO I have found it much better to try to live each day in a harmonious peaceful relationship with my heavenly Creator and Father and put my trust there. That's always worked, and even "back in the day" I was learning not to show up to my Mental Prayer Hut with a box of my believing and demanding God do this or that or whatever.
In fact though, God did answer my prayers quite literally one day by reminding me that there's a lot of things I can "do for myself".....like just...go on. There you go. Go do it. Yep, you're fine. Go ahead. I'm with you. Yes. No - YOU CAN'T GO OVER IT AGAIN WITH ME OKAY YOU CAN BUT REALLY.....why not just go on. Do it. See? Right - okay, now do it again...yep......
Anyway, I learned some of that from Lynn too, as when I was around him and worked some with him he could be on the one hand a very nice, hard working industrious person but on the other, as kindly as I can say, something of a flat earth kind of mentality, intellectually. Not that I'm Einstein, but yeah. No.
Edited by socks No reason for edit....No reason at all. Why? Did it look like there's a reason? I never said I had a reason?!! Why are you hounding me over this reason thing!??! Did someone say I had a reason?? Who - who said it, I need to know before I answer thi-----
I used the law of believing, once, to levitate a table. Well, it was actually more like a patio umbrella but, boy howdy, that son of a gun lifted straight up in the air. If I remember correctly, it was a really hot and sticky August afternoon. I don't know about you, but I have trouble focusing when I'm uncomfortable. Then, just like that, a big storm came in with lots of rain and gusty wind. I instantly felt relief from the heat. I guess that made it easier to focus in and get the results I wanted/needed.
I used the law of believing, once, to levitate a table. Well, it was actually more like a patio umbrella but, boy howdy, that son of a gun lifted straight up in the air. If I remember correctly, it was a really hot and sticky August afternoon. I don't know about you, but I have trouble focusing when I'm uncomfortable. Then, just like that, a big storm came in with lots of rain and gusty wind. I instantly felt relief from the heat. I guess that made it easier to focus in and get the results I wanted/needed.
Wow, I guess I must've had a fairly sheltered life back when I was in the Ministry. I never heard anything about John being associated with a "personal prophecy" debacle, or even shilling "Momentus" under-the-table -- what were those two issues all about? And how exactly did he "double-down" on those controversies? Wasn't John fired from the Ministry back when Craig gave all the leadership and Corp members an ultimatum that they either had to follow him or Jesus Christ? Maybe I was wrong about that one too. In this particular video interview, John seems to be marching lock-step with Dr. Weirwille on the 800-lb gorilla issues of the trinity, speaking in tongues, and eternal salvation. Maybe even sounds a little more eloquent than the Doctor ever did, but John obviously seems to be still totting the old company line at least on these three major topics. Say what you will about John, he's certainly determined, committed, resilient, and faithful to his personal beliefs on God and His Word.
I feel like i must have lived a very sheltered life in the ministry as well. I consider my year at Emporia the best year of my life because of the love I was shown by the college division students and way corp members. I made so many good memories and people I still consider friends even though I haven't seen them in many years. Thinking back on some of the teachings and the very strict militant rules at the college I can now see a certain level of control and manipulation but there were also many lessons that had a very positive impact on my life. While at the college I had IMMENSE respect for JAL. Whenever he taught I felt like he was talking directly to me. He had a way of cutting to the core of a matter in a humorous, engaging and thought provoking way and for some reason he had a huge impact on me. Of course I was only 18 and missed a lot of what was happening at the college, especially with the way corp. I do know I was totally disgusted with the decision to put LCM in charge. I never liked him and had absolutely no respect for him even at my young age. His energy BAD. I always felt JAL would have been a much better choice. Having said that I have no clue how clean or dirty his hands were with regards to the rampant corruption within the ministry.
Duke, CD, et al - John changed his own teaching on speaking in tongues in regards to interpretation before he was fired by Howard Allen. He ran around the country "exposing" the Trustees evil ways and handling a laundry list of doctrinal points he wanted to cover and that was one of them. Dr. Weirwille's ground-zero on doctrine was the holy spirit field, and he was adamant on numerous occasions that it was the centerpiece of the PFAL series. He safeguarded everything taught in the PFAL series with the intention of never changing any of it. His son Donald made that clear too after VPW's death when the subject of re doing PFAL was rolling around the Corps, and it did not deal with the presentation package, it dealt with doctrine - "every jot and tittle" as he stated it.
All the Corps and staff who'd been around since at least the early 70's had heard that many times from VPW in many different applications - "change one thing in the Word and your whole bible falls to pieces" was the logic being applied. Although he did not state PFAL was specifically a re issuing of the Word of God he did state that he felt it was the "best he could do" and that in fact anyone could do.
That was forgotten or ignored later, very conveniently. And I can only restate my contention to John AT THE TIME when we spoke, that IF he chose to change the PFAL series teaching in whole or in part it was NOT his right to infer that Dr. Wierwille would have approved or agreed or as he wrote in a public statement that VPW would be "proud" of his work. Face value - he knew that was a lie and if he actually believed it himself he was living in a dream.
Lot of this, a lot of people don't know or admittedly weren't there for. Just as I wasn't around for things Craig did or is said to have done later after I exited formally in 1989. I have changed, adjusted some of the doctrine I learned in PFAL and the Way Corps over the years, some of it I had worked on since my first year in residence. I don't apologize for that or even feel that it separates me from any other member of the Body of Christ, but I DON'T tell people that ol' Dr. Wierwille would be "proud" of what I've done, because as per the last times I heard him talk about changing things he'd taught in PFAL and the people who did that - let's say he didn't support that.
Momentous, "personal prophecy", the nature of God and His sovereignty, etc. etc. ......... he's made some more than subtle changes in what he teaches, although the bulk of the public stuff is pretty much "Christian-Lite" Osteen/Meyer level teaching. I'm sure it's inspirational to many people.
It's history. And as of 2020 if John's still the deluded but well meaning guy he was years ago, fine. I'm closing the book on beating some of these dead horses as it has no real connection or meaning to my life now, other than I find I have no animosity to him or many others. It doesn't change anything and versions may vary from person to person (and probably should based on individual experience)
Carry on!
Edited by socks Like January Christmas lights under billion year old stars, she comes up with more of what is lost than what is found
For those who never looked for the threads on Momentus and Personal Prophecy here (there's a search function, after all), I'm posting 2 links as a public service. The forum "Spirit and Truth Fellowship International" has both threads I'm linking to...
"CES and Momentous" and "Step Right Up, get your own personal prophecy." Both have links to at least 1 other discussion at the GSC on their subjects.
One thing the offshoots seem to avoid, which TWI made front and center, and why GSC is so necessary, is the condemnation we were made to feel if we would “copt out of the word.” Hammered in our heads was we would lose all rewards, or die, if we left TWI. Martindale’s favorite blather was, “you will be a grease spot by midnight,” if you dare believe TWI was wrong and move on.
You were cut off from any and all friendships you had made while associated with TWI. Many were “marked and avoid” to add additional shame and ridicule.
The offshoots teach pretty much what TWI taught, but I haven’t heard any of their followers finding it hard to leave. Apparently they learned this was not a good stratagy.
I have been gone along time and glad to find GSC is still here.
I was surfing the web this morning & touched bases with the same forum that interviewed John for the initial posting on this thread. I came up with the attached little nugget. In all due respect to this guy, he's now in his late 70's, apparently still touring the country and preaching on things like: COVID-19, the violent riots and looting in major U.S. cities (a.k.a. Peaceful Protests), 'The End Times', the Trinity, and, oh yeah, the Bible.
How many ex-Wayfers are even remotely still doing something similar to this, Biblical speaking? Not trying to push John's latest gig down anybody's throat, but it's something I can still respect. Just sayin.
Another way to look at the exact same thing you looked at.....
The guy is now in his late 70s. He's still traveling around, preaching for pay (preferably those nice, non-taxable envelopes of cash known as "prayer offerings" or "abundant sharings" or "love-offerings" or the like.) He's fine with being VERY political and partisan, incidentally preaching Christ.
How many ex-wayfers are doing that- as opposed to praying, preaching love, preaching Christ crucified-buried-raised-ascended-returning, in short, all the Biblically-speaking stuff, Biblically speaking?
John's still trying to push John's latest gig down everybody's throat. That's something I can NEVER respect. Just saying.
BTW, I'm curious if he's still following his more-than-a-decade practice of SECRETLY pushing MOMENTUS while avoiding the subject while the microphones were on. He never apologized for the lives RUINED by this un-Christian business that masqueraded as a Christian business, which he touted as if it was the next way corps- complete with insider-outsider status, private lingo, etc. He stopped OPENLY pushing it, but was still recruiting people to it several years later, by phone and so on. JAL has gone on record saying he will only dialogue with people whose use their real names- although he refused to dialogue with some people who gave their full names- and then only by phone. Those whom he DID speak to reported that he never actually listened or "dialogued" - he just used the phone-call as a chance to shill his classes and programs. That's something I've never been able to respect. Just saying.
(In deference to the "absolutely NO politics" rule at the GSC, I'm not going to address the politics (tempting though it is.)
Another way to look at the exact same thing you looked at.....
The guy is now in his late 70s. He's still traveling around, preaching for pay (preferably those nice, non-taxable envelopes of cash known as "prayer offerings" or "abundant sharings" or "love-offerings" or the like.) He's fine with being VERY political and partisan, incidentally preaching Christ.
How many ex-wayfers are doing that- as opposed to praying, preaching love, preaching Christ crucified-buried-raised-ascended-returning, in short, all the Biblically-speaking stuff, Biblically speaking?
John's still trying to push John's latest gig down everybody's throat. That's something I can NEVER respect. Just saying.
BTW, I'm curious if he's still following his more-than-a-decade practice of SECRETLY pushing MOMENTUS while avoiding the subject while the microphones were on. He never apologized for the lives RUINED by this un-Christian business that masqueraded as a Christian business, which he touted as if it was the next way corps- complete with insider-outsider status, private lingo, etc. He stopped OPENLY pushing it, but was still recruiting people to it several years later, by phone and so on. JAL has gone on record saying he will only dialogue with people whose use their real names- although he refused to dialogue with some people who gave their full names- and then only by phone. Those whom he DID speak to reported that he never actually listened or "dialogued" - he just used the phone-call as a chance to shill his classes and programs. That's something I've never been able to respect. Just saying.
(In deference to the "absolutely NO politics" rule at the GSC, I'm not going to address the politics (tempting though it is.)
In all due respect to your response, WordWolf, I don't believe I was active with The Way during this "MOMENTUS incident", maybe if I had, I wouldn't give John Lynn the time of day right now. I can't help but think of somebody like Pastor Jim Bakker, who back in the 80's had a multi-million dollar world-wide ministry called the PTL Club and then served several years in Prison on Fraud charges. Today, Bakker remarried, has a church service in Branson MO, and managed to get a weekday, half hour show on Daystar TV. Not too shabby, but it's clearly a mere shell of the Ministry Bakker had 35-40 years ago.
On one hand, I respect the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who literally got exploited by Bakker via contributing tons of money to his ministry while he and then wife, Tammy Faye Bakker were living like grossly spoiled billionaires, to either go worship elsewhere or just plain not do anything at all for God anymore. I definitely get it.
On the flip-side, I'm eternally grateful that God Almighty gives Second Chances to people. If Jim Bakker is still ripping people off and messing them over spiritually, I'm sure God will make him pay for that on Judgement Day. Ditto with King David having an affair with a married woman and still continuing as Israel's spiritual leader. Ditto with Paul the Apostle representing God after murdering numerous Christians.
Just for the record, I'm not a "member" to either John's TLTF, or Bakker's Branson MO church, nor have I given even a penny to either of their ministries. If either or both are con artists ripping people off or destroying folks spiritually, I'm sure God Almighty will deal with them come Judgement Day. Call me naive or gullible if you will, but I just respect these two guys or anybody else who strives to make an effort to do God's Will. Will there be some back-sliding here and there? Probably, but give them some credit for persistence and determination.
I hope, WordWolf, this clears some stuff up a little bit.
On the flip-side, I'm eternally grateful that God Almighty gives Second Chances to people. If Jim Bakker is still ripping people off and messing them over spiritually, I'm sure God will make him pay for that on Judgement Day. Ditto with King David having an affair with a married woman and still continuing as Israel's spiritual leader. Ditto with Paul the Apostle representing God after murdering numerous Christians.
Just for the record, I'm not a "member" to either John's TLTF, or Bakker's Branson MO church, nor have I given even a penny to either of their ministries. If either or both are con artists ripping people off or destroying folks spiritually, I'm sure God Almighty will deal with them come Judgement Day.
Call me naive or gullible if you will, but I just respect these two guys or anybody else who strives to make an effort to do God's Will. Will there be some back-sliding here and there? Probably, but give them some credit for persistence and determination.
I hope, WordWolf, this clears some stuff up a little bit.
Peace out.
FYI Con men arepersistent and determined. Call me cynical and leery of con artists and repeat offenders who continue to pull the wool over folks’ eyes by appealing to “the Almighty’s 2nd chances”. In reading passages like Matthew 7: 15-20 and II Peter 2 it seems pretty obvious that it is God’s Will that Christians should NOT have a laissez faire attitude when it comes to con artists, false teachers, and supposed “spiritual leaders” who exploit and abuse others. Sure - let God deal with them on Judgment Day as He sees fit in the hereafter – but meanwhile in the here and now it’s our Christian responsibility to protect the flock from ravenous wolves.
FYI Con men arepersistent and determined. Call me cynical and leery of con artists and repeat offenders who continue to pull the wool over folks’ eyes by appealing to “the Almighty’s 2nd chances”. In reading passages like Matthew 7: 15-20 and II Peter 2 it seems pretty obvious that it is God’s Will that Christians should NOT have a laissez faire attitude when it comes to con artists, false teachers, and supposed “spiritual leaders” who exploit and abuse others. Sure - let God deal with them on Judgment Day as He sees fit in the hereafter – but meanwhile in the here and now it’s our Christian responsibility to protect the flock from ravenous wolves.
FYI Con men arepersistent and determined. Call me cynical and leery of con artists and repeat offenders who continue to pull the wool over folks’ eyes by appealing to “the Almighty’s 2nd chances”. In reading passages like Matthew 7: 15-20 and II Peter 2 it seems pretty obvious that it is God’s Will that Christians should NOT have a laissez faire attitude when it comes to con artists, false teachers, and supposed “spiritual leaders” who exploit and abuse others. Sure - let God deal with them on Judgment Day as He sees fit in the hereafter – but meanwhile in the here and now it’s our Christian responsibility to protect the flock from ravenous wolves.
That's a beautiful response, T-Bone, in Theory, but in ACTUAL PRACTICE, it absolutely stinks! Was Paul the Apostle a Disciple of Jesus Christ, or just simply a "Spiritual Trouble-shooter"? How many of the Regular Participants here on Grease Spot Cafe have been out of the Way Ministry for a couple Decades and not even attempted to become active again in another Church? How do you possibly fulfill the need for Worship and Fellowship in your spiritual lives by just alienating yourselves for a quarter century OR EVEN LONGER by not giving God a chance to work with you to help others via participating in another Church?
Granted, sometimes Christian leaders need to be publicly called out, such as former Liberty University president Jerry Falwell Jr. -- the guy wasn't obviously fit to be running a Christian college at this point in his life. Nor am I suggesting John Lynn or his TLTF ministry is the answer to all your prayers. But just simply laying back and publicly criticizing somebody like Lynn, or Chris Geer, or Craig Martindale OR, how about trashing somebody who's been dead and buried for about a half century like Victor Paul Weirwille or Howard Allen -- please explain to me how engaging in that type of crap week after week, year after year edifies someone's spiritual life?
Yeah, identifying "wolves in sheep's clothing" might be part of being a disciple of Jesus Christ but let's get REAL, it's a very small part. It certainly doesn't supersede the constant commitment of Forgiveness and Patience it takes to be a part of a regular Church Worship and Fellowship routine.
Personally, I wasn't actively involved in any Church when I left the Way Ministry. As we all know, The Way has its own quirks and distinctions to make being part of another Church really tough to fit in unless you're willing to compromise quite a bit on your beliefs about the Bible. But I couldn't just sit on the proverbial sidelines anymore to simply twiddle my thumbs and do absolutely nothing. I want to be doing something in my life that's part of God's Will while I'm still living and breathing.
Sorry if that offends some people here on this Forum.
Hey, you take care, T-Bone, I sure hope this helps to clear some things up.
I agree with you – in actual practice it does stink if one is at the receiving end of biblical condemnation. I don’t mean to dash your hopes of clearing things up – but - you seem to have an ax to grind about those who criticize con artists and false teachers. Your false assumptions about Grease Spotters and what is the priority of God’s will tend to obfuscate this discussion. I’m of the opinion that attempts to guilt-trip critics after one’s efforts to sweep moral depravity under the carpet have failed, usually indicates the criticism has touched a nerve.
Founder and First President of the Way International, Victor Paul Weirwille, Died and was Buried back in 1985 -- THAT'S 35 YEARS AGO!
Both John Lynn and Chris Geer were FIRED from The Way within 5 years after that -- THAT'S AT LEAST 30 YEARS AGO!
The 2nd President of the Way International, L. Craig Martindale was FIRED from The Way in 2000 -- THAT'S 20 YEARS AGO!
Heck, here's an interesting question, out of the current Grease Spot Cafe participants who've made, at least, 100 comments on this Forum thus far, how many (or what percentage) are 59-or-younger? My personal guess would be, less than 5% -- maybe even less than 2% -- of the regulars here would be under the age of 60. If my guess here is accurate, what a total waste of time and life to just trash people from a computer terminal whom you feel messed you over decades, if not quarter centuries, ago!
I've heard from several of the longtime participants here on Grease Spot Cafe, that this is NOT a Christian website -- gee, I never would've guessed. If I'm totally off-base here, what church or Christian denomination does Grease Spot Cafe endorse? Why doesn't Grease Spot offer a sub-section or two devoted for personal testimonies of what great and wonderful things God has done in their lives lately? Why doesn't Grease Spot offer a sub-section dedicated for prayer so people can hopefully be delivered or healed from problems effecting them in their lives?
T-Bone, how many people would you GUESS-TIMATE in the United States right now who are still "suffering" from their former Way Ministry experience? Hundreds? Dozens? Maybe less than 10? Granted, I'm sure there are a few stories out there of folks who really got BLEEPED (emotionally, spiritually, and sometimes even physically) by Way Ministry leadership. Some people in the USA have had some rough times going through Divorces, but they got over it. Some Holacaust survivors have had a hard time after escaping Nazi Concentration camps, but they got over it.
To paraphrase Paul the Apostle, sometimes you just need to "shake off the dust and move on."
Granted, I'm sure there are a few stories out there of folks who really got BLEEPED (emotionally, spiritually, and sometimes even physically) by Way Ministry leadership. Some people in the USA have had some rough times going through Divorces, but they got over it. Some Holacaust survivors have had a hard time after escaping Nazi Concentration camps, but they got over it.
To paraphrase Paul the Apostle, sometimes you just need to "shake off the dust and move on."
For clarification, are you suggesting you know better what any person other than yourself is specifically responsible to do with her/his life, specifically?
Your comments read like you are condemning GSC and the people who continue to contribute here long after leaving TWI. Is that what you intended?
I think I can sum up my views of the main arguments here with this thread in two small paragraphs:
1) Whether you consider "the official turning point of the Way Ministry" 35 years ago (Weirwille's passing), or 20 years ago (Martindale's termination), that's just too long of a time to hold a grudge against somebody. That type of bitterness goes along the same plateau as, the Hatfields vs. the McCoys, or Israel vs. the Arabs. You need a heck a lot more than just changing your name to a pseudonym and spewing out vulgarities over the Internet to ever be delivered from that degree of hatred.
2) Identifying "wolves in sheep's clothing" is really a very small part of what Christianity and the Bible are all about. It certainly doesn't supersede Compassion and Forgiveness. If that's supposed to be the whole objective behind GreaseSpotCafe.com , maybe it's high time some of you 'Old Farts' get your heads together and modify that objective a little bit.
I think I can sum up my views of the main arguments here with this thread in two small paragraphs:
1) Whether you consider "the official turning point of the Way Ministry" 35 years ago (Weirwille's passing), or 20 years ago (Martindale's termination), that's just too long of a time to hold a grudge against somebody. That type of bitterness goes along the same plateau as, the Hatfields vs. the McCoys, or Israel vs. the Arabs. You need a heck a lot more than just changing your name to a pseudonym and spewing out vulgarities over the Internet to ever be delivered from that degree of hatred.
2) Identifying "wolves in sheep's clothing" is really a very small part of what Christianity and the Bible are all about. It certainly doesn't supersede Compassion and Forgiveness. If that's supposed to be the whole objective behind GreaseSpotCafe.com , maybe it's high time some of you 'Old Farts' get your heads together and modify that objective a little bit.
Just sayin
RB, I am an "Old Fart." I attended my first "Twig", well over 40 years ago. I had many positive experiences with TWI for 10 years. However, many others didn't. Many of the women, and some of the men, had very unpleasant experiences with it. I have no idea how old you are, but I am 63. Decades, and decades ago, I was sexually abused by some of the men in my family. I have struggled with PTSD my entire life. It's been very difficult to "get over it." But thank God, for therapists. My present therapist is a young man, who is an excellent therapist; probably the best one I have ever had. I have long forgiven the two men, who abused me, but I have never forgotten it. I have read some of the horrible stories that happened to others, here at the GSC. The TWI presented itself as a, Godly Christian organization. However, it has been reported over, and over, that VPW, and others raped various women, and took money, that didn't belong to them. For a "Christian man", to rape one woman, is shameful. To rape, dozens, or perhaps hundreds, is a tragedy. RB, I pray that you never experience sexual assault; it could leave you with life long scars, and mess you up emotionally for years. Just my opinion.
How many of the Regular Participants here on Grease Spot Cafe have been out of the Way Ministry for a couple Decades and not even attempted to become active again in another Church? How do you possibly fulfill the need for Worship and Fellowship in your spiritual lives by just alienating yourselves for a quarter century OR EVEN LONGER by not giving God a chance to work with you to help others via participating in another Church?
That's an awfully big assumption to make. How can you possibly know who is or has been active in another (another?) church? How do you know about other peoples' involvement with other Christians?
Look harder, read more carefully: I think you might be surprised.
Especially as you say this of yourself:
14 hours ago, Robinette Byden said:
Personally, I wasn't actively involved in any Church when I left the Way Ministry.
Just don't think that because you gave up, others also did.
Founder and First President of the Way International, Victor Paul Weirwille, Died and was Buried back in 1985 -- THAT'S 35 YEARS AGO!
Both John Lynn and Chris Geer were FIRED from The Way within 5 years after that -- THAT'S AT LEAST 30 YEARS AGO!
The 2nd President of the Way International, L. Craig Martindale was FIRED from The Way in 2000 -- THAT'S 20 YEARS AGO!
Heck, here's an interesting question, out of the current Grease Spot Cafe participants who've made, at least, 100 comments on this Forum thus far, how many (or what percentage) are 59-or-younger? My personal guess would be, less than 5% -- maybe even less than 2% -- of the regulars here would be under the age of 60. If my guess here is accurate, what a total waste of time and life to just trash people from a computer terminal whom you feel messed you over decades, if not quarter centuries, ago!
I've heard from several of the longtime participants here on Grease Spot Cafe, that this is NOT a Christian website -- gee, I never would've guessed. If I'm totally off-base here, what church or Christian denomination does Grease Spot Cafe endorse? Why doesn't Grease Spot offer a sub-section or two devoted for personal testimonies of what great and wonderful things God has done in their lives lately? Why doesn't Grease Spot offer a sub-section dedicated for prayer so people can hopefully be delivered or healed from problems effecting them in their lives?
T-Bone, how many people would youGUESS-TIMATEin the United States right now who are still "suffering" from their former Way Ministry experience? Hundreds? Dozens? Maybe less than 10? Granted, I'm sure there are a few stories out there of folks who really got BLEEPED (emotionally, spiritually, and sometimes even physically) by Way Ministry leadership. Some people in the USA have had some rough times going through Divorces, but they got over it. Some Holacaust survivors have had a hard time after escaping Nazi Concentration camps, but they got over it.
To paraphrase Paul the Apostle, sometimes you just need to "shake off the dust and move on."
Just sayin
There are issues with “let’s do the math”: Counting the years since con artists and false teachers were in power and guessing how to quantify and qualify those still suffering from their cult experience is NOT a viable math problem since you lack relevant facts – guesswork is not facts…Also missing is the clinical research to support your thesis that given X amount of time people should be "over" their bad experiences…Your “thesis” might also suggest there is a no-regard-for-the-thoughts-and-feelings-of-others problem in your own thought process...to expect Grease Spotters to “get over it ” is a callous and cold thing to say…
Remembering the Holocaust is more than honoring the lives lost and families shattered – among other things here’s what several people have said after reading Holocaust survivor Elie Wisel’s “Night”: “ it is vitally important to inform our children so that in their turn they will stand up and not let such atrocities happen again.” … “It'd kind of disturbing to see and hear how these people where treated, but people need to know this stuff. They really do. Especially racial people who don't like people of a different religion or belief. Knowing this makes us think clearer and realize that we are our own enemy”…“The holocaust is relevant to today because there are still situations that occur around the world many are similar to the holocaust that many of us are unaware of, that’s why we need more people like Mr. Elie because we know so little about what he and the others went through those years”
The main reason I post on Grease Spot (and I don’t think I’m alone on this) is because there are reasonable and good folks still captivated by a cult mindset – whether they're in The Way International or some splinter group - who check out Grease Spot and hopefully something clicks in their minds and a yearning to think freely takes its first deep breath in.
I think I can sum up my views of the main arguments here with this thread in two small paragraphs:
1) Whether you consider "the official turning point of the Way Ministry" 35 years ago (Wierwille's passing), or 20 years ago (Martindale's termination), that's just too long of a time to hold a grudge against somebody. That type of bitterness goes along the same plateau as, the Hatfields vs. the McCoys, or Israel vs. the Arabs. You need a heck a lot more than just changing your name to a pseudonym and spewing out vulgarities over the Internet to ever be delivered from that degree of hatred.
2) Identifying "wolves in sheep's clothing" is really a very small part of what Christianity and the Bible are all about. It certainly doesn't supersede Compassion and Forgiveness. If that's supposed to be the whole objective behind GreaseSpotCafe.com , maybe it's high time some of you 'Old Farts' get your heads together and modify that objective a little bit.
Just sayin
Your empathy seems to be deficient. Your apparent need to pass judgment on people who post here more than makes up for it.
I think I can sum up my views of the main arguments here with this thread in two small paragraphs:
1) Whether you consider "the official turning point of the Way Ministry" 35 years ago (Weirwille's passing), or 20 years ago (Martindale's termination), that's just too long of a time to hold a grudge against somebody. That type of bitterness goes along the same plateau as, the Hatfields vs. the McCoys, or Israel vs. the Arabs. You need a heck a lot more than just changing your name to a pseudonym and spewing out vulgarities over the Internet to ever be delivered from that degree of hatred.
2) Identifying "wolves in sheep's clothing" is really a very small part of what Christianity and the Bible are all about. It certainly doesn't supersede Compassion and Forgiveness. If that's supposed to be the whole objective behind GreaseSpotCafe.com , maybe it's high time some of you 'Old Farts' get your heads together and modify that objective a little bit.
Just sayin
Btw, it appears you've not had any significant contact in your life with journalists or historians. Of course, I could be wrong. However, journalists and historians tell the stories of what has happened.
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socks
Lotza things kids, Having been around during that period of Lynn 's exit and having spoken with him twice the year he skated out, John Lynn's "quitting/getting fired" from the Way Ministry was ki
socks
9. We do not believe that “faith” is a force generated by the human mind that automatically brings either good or bad into one’s life. To me, that's a very bizarre statement, and reads like it's
T-Bone
Hi Robinette, Your posts have brought up some interesting points and after giving them some thought I wanted to address a few things. God does forgive – but he does not always remove the con
oldiesman
The teachings are remarkably the same as PFAL, with one difference in the "statement of un-beliefs":
9. We do not believe that “faith” is a force generated by the human mind that automatically brings either good or bad into one’s life.
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waysider
Yes, renouncing the "law of believing" is certainly a massive departure from Way theology.
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socks
9. We do not believe that “faith” is a force generated by the human mind that automatically brings either good or bad into one’s life.
To me, that's a very bizarre statement, and reads like it's designed to appeal to the ex-Wayfer crowd. I talk to lots and lots of Christians of all stripe and no one is
struggling with or promoting the idea that faith is a force generated by the human mind that yada yada....
Faith is trust, and confidence in, about, towards something. "Pistis/Pistueo" in the Bible, a firm conviction, belief, a trust -
IN SOMETHING. The bang is in the buck.
My exposure to the teachings of VPW in and around PFAL included what certainly sounded like him teaching "believing" as some kind of tangible "thing" that would produce a result when it was at a certain level. "Build up your believing", got used a lot in that context, and the very idea of Christians as "believers" was both their belief in doctrine as well as their "believing walks", what they did with those doctrines. If you "weren't believing" it had a sense of your tank being half full - like you were convinced but not REALLY convinced, even though you may have done the actual thing that needed to be done and didn't get the "results".....because you weren't "believing"....even though you were. It was kind of like a dog chasing it's tail though and every once in awhile it bites it and stops then starts again..........meanwhile all it really amounted to was trying to saturate your thinking and resulting actions with enough of what God instructs you to do so that your "faith" will then be towards Him. It used to seem sometimes like VPW actually repudiated God's grace when he's teach people to not rely on it - when people like me were thinking "fuk, I rely on it all the time, I NEED IT!!!!"..................and I guess what I think he really meant was don't be a lazy ass and avoid doing the work you're supposed to and expect someone else to do it for you. But they're not really the same things, that's not relying on "grace">
The trust and confidence of pistis/pistueo has significance in the Bible because it's GOD WERE' TRUSTING IN. Pneuma hagion is HIS GIFT, TO US.
VPW was trying to build a generation of Uber Christians, The True Believers, who knew THE TRUTH and would WALK IT like it hasn't been walked since the first century.
In fact, many of his early protege's tanked and were mostly just successful at being good employees and mimics of him in the family business. He died of cancer, alone but for a sidekick, pushing aways all others who might have actually given a crap about him as a person.
I'd rather not exit this temporal crust that way.
I can say without any doubt whatsoever and complete confidence that today, the greatest cargoes of life come in over seas of grace, in the vast ocean of God's eternal Will. Two words I caught in PFAL that I hold to today are "alignment and harmony".....rather than build an egocentric prideful bucket of pig shit over MY BELIEVING and all that I DO I have found it much better to try to live each day in a harmonious peaceful relationship with my heavenly Creator and Father and put my trust there. That's always worked, and even "back in the day" I was learning not to show up to my Mental Prayer Hut with a box of my believing and demanding God do this or that or whatever.
In fact though, God did answer my prayers quite literally one day by reminding me that there's a lot of things I can "do for myself".....like just...go on. There you go. Go do it. Yep, you're fine. Go ahead. I'm with you. Yes. No - YOU CAN'T GO OVER IT AGAIN WITH ME OKAY YOU CAN BUT REALLY.....why not just go on. Do it. See? Right - okay, now do it again...yep......
Anyway, I learned some of that from Lynn too, as when I was around him and worked some with him he could be on the one hand a very nice, hard working industrious person but on the other, as kindly as I can say, something of a flat earth kind of mentality, intellectually. Not that I'm Einstein, but yeah. No.
Edited by socksNo reason for edit....No reason at all. Why? Did it look like there's a reason? I never said I had a reason?!! Why are you hounding me over this reason thing!??! Did someone say I had a reason?? Who - who said it, I need to know before I answer thi-----
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waysider
I used the law of believing, once, to levitate a table. Well, it was actually more like a patio umbrella but, boy howdy, that son of a gun lifted straight up in the air. If I remember correctly, it was a really hot and sticky August afternoon. I don't know about you, but I have trouble focusing when I'm uncomfortable. Then, just like that, a big storm came in with lots of rain and gusty wind. I instantly felt relief from the heat. I guess that made it easier to focus in and get the results I wanted/needed.
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Rocky
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CD19811982
I feel like i must have lived a very sheltered life in the ministry as well. I consider my year at Emporia the best year of my life because of the love I was shown by the college division students and way corp members. I made so many good memories and people I still consider friends even though I haven't seen them in many years. Thinking back on some of the teachings and the very strict militant rules at the college I can now see a certain level of control and manipulation but there were also many lessons that had a very positive impact on my life. While at the college I had IMMENSE respect for JAL. Whenever he taught I felt like he was talking directly to me. He had a way of cutting to the core of a matter in a humorous, engaging and thought provoking way and for some reason he had a huge impact on me. Of course I was only 18 and missed a lot of what was happening at the college, especially with the way corp. I do know I was totally disgusted with the decision to put LCM in charge. I never liked him and had absolutely no respect for him even at my young age. His energy BAD. I always felt JAL would have been a much better choice. Having said that I have no clue how clean or dirty his hands were with regards to the rampant corruption within the ministry.
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socks
Duke, CD, et al - John changed his own teaching on speaking in tongues in regards to interpretation before he was fired by Howard Allen. He ran around the country "exposing" the Trustees evil ways and handling a laundry list of doctrinal points he wanted to cover and that was one of them. Dr. Weirwille's ground-zero on doctrine was the holy spirit field, and he was adamant on numerous occasions that it was the centerpiece of the PFAL series. He safeguarded everything taught in the PFAL series with the intention of never changing any of it. His son Donald made that clear too after VPW's death when the subject of re doing PFAL was rolling around the Corps, and it did not deal with the presentation package, it dealt with doctrine - "every jot and tittle" as he stated it.
All the Corps and staff who'd been around since at least the early 70's had heard that many times from VPW in many different applications - "change one thing in the Word and your whole bible falls to pieces" was the logic being applied. Although he did not state PFAL was specifically a re issuing of the Word of God he did state that he felt it was the "best he could do" and that in fact anyone could do.
That was forgotten or ignored later, very conveniently. And I can only restate my contention to John AT THE TIME when we spoke, that IF he chose to change the PFAL series teaching in whole or in part it was NOT his right to infer that Dr. Wierwille would have approved or agreed or as he wrote in a public statement that VPW would be "proud" of his work. Face value - he knew that was a lie and if he actually believed it himself he was living in a dream.
Lot of this, a lot of people don't know or admittedly weren't there for. Just as I wasn't around for things Craig did or is said to have done later after I exited formally in 1989. I have changed, adjusted some of the doctrine I learned in PFAL and the Way Corps over the years, some of it I had worked on since my first year in residence. I don't apologize for that or even feel that it separates me from any other member of the Body of Christ, but I DON'T tell people that ol' Dr. Wierwille would be "proud" of what I've done, because as per the last times I heard him talk about changing things he'd taught in PFAL and the people who did that - let's say he didn't support that.
Momentous, "personal prophecy", the nature of God and His sovereignty, etc. etc. ......... he's made some more than subtle changes in what he teaches, although the bulk of the public stuff is pretty much "Christian-Lite" Osteen/Meyer level teaching. I'm sure it's inspirational to many people.
It's history. And as of 2020 if John's still the deluded but well meaning guy he was years ago, fine. I'm closing the book on beating some of these dead horses as it has no real connection or meaning to my life now, other than I find I have no animosity to him or many others. It doesn't change anything and versions may vary from person to person (and probably should based on individual experience)
Carry on!
Edited by socksLike January Christmas lights under billion year old stars, she comes up with more of what is lost than what is found
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WordWolf
For those who never looked for the threads on Momentus and Personal Prophecy here (there's a search function, after all), I'm posting 2 links as a public service. The forum "Spirit and Truth Fellowship International" has both threads I'm linking to...
"CES and Momentous" and "Step Right Up, get your own personal prophecy." Both have links to at least 1 other discussion at the GSC on their subjects.
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/13316-ces-and-momentous/
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/12632-step-right-up-get-your-own-personal-prophecy/
BTW, the "Momentus" thread was here:
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/4424-momentus/
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Stayed Too Long
One thing the offshoots seem to avoid, which TWI made front and center, and why GSC is so necessary, is the condemnation we were made to feel if we would “copt out of the word.” Hammered in our heads was we would lose all rewards, or die, if we left TWI. Martindale’s favorite blather was, “you will be a grease spot by midnight,” if you dare believe TWI was wrong and move on.
You were cut off from any and all friendships you had made while associated with TWI. Many were “marked and avoid” to add additional shame and ridicule.
The offshoots teach pretty much what TWI taught, but I haven’t heard any of their followers finding it hard to leave. Apparently they learned this was not a good stratagy.
I have been gone along time and glad to find GSC is still here.
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Robinette Byden
I was surfing the web this morning & touched bases with the same forum that interviewed John for the initial posting on this thread. I came up with the attached little nugget. In all due respect to this guy, he's now in his late 70's, apparently still touring the country and preaching on things like: COVID-19, the violent riots and looting in major U.S. cities (a.k.a. Peaceful Protests), 'The End Times', the Trinity, and, oh yeah, the Bible.
How many ex-Wayfers are even remotely still doing something similar to this, Biblical speaking? Not trying to push John's latest gig down anybody's throat, but it's something I can still respect. Just sayin.
https://onebaddecisionawayfromhomelessness.wordpress.com/2020/09/26/50-year-pastor-plans-to-visit-nashua-nh-10-17-20-promoting-his-ministry-discussing-the-end-times/
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WordWolf
Another way to look at the exact same thing you looked at.....
The guy is now in his late 70s. He's still traveling around, preaching for pay (preferably those nice, non-taxable envelopes of cash known as "prayer offerings" or "abundant sharings" or "love-offerings" or the like.) He's fine with being VERY political and partisan, incidentally preaching Christ.
How many ex-wayfers are doing that- as opposed to praying, preaching love, preaching Christ crucified-buried-raised-ascended-returning, in short, all the Biblically-speaking stuff, Biblically speaking?
John's still trying to push John's latest gig down everybody's throat. That's something I can NEVER respect. Just saying.
BTW, I'm curious if he's still following his more-than-a-decade practice of SECRETLY pushing MOMENTUS while avoiding the subject while the microphones were on. He never apologized for the lives RUINED by this un-Christian business that masqueraded as a Christian business, which he touted as if it was the next way corps- complete with insider-outsider status, private lingo, etc. He stopped OPENLY pushing it, but was still recruiting people to it several years later, by phone and so on. JAL has gone on record saying he will only dialogue with people whose use their real names- although he refused to dialogue with some people who gave their full names- and then only by phone. Those whom he DID speak to reported that he never actually listened or "dialogued" - he just used the phone-call as a chance to shill his classes and programs. That's something I've never been able to respect. Just saying.
(In deference to the "absolutely NO politics" rule at the GSC, I'm not going to address the politics (tempting though it is.)
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Robinette Byden
In all due respect to your response, WordWolf, I don't believe I was active with The Way during this "MOMENTUS incident", maybe if I had, I wouldn't give John Lynn the time of day right now. I can't help but think of somebody like Pastor Jim Bakker, who back in the 80's had a multi-million dollar world-wide ministry called the PTL Club and then served several years in Prison on Fraud charges. Today, Bakker remarried, has a church service in Branson MO, and managed to get a weekday, half hour show on Daystar TV. Not too shabby, but it's clearly a mere shell of the Ministry Bakker had 35-40 years ago.
On one hand, I respect the hundreds, if not thousands, of people who literally got exploited by Bakker via contributing tons of money to his ministry while he and then wife, Tammy Faye Bakker were living like grossly spoiled billionaires, to either go worship elsewhere or just plain not do anything at all for God anymore. I definitely get it.
On the flip-side, I'm eternally grateful that God Almighty gives Second Chances to people. If Jim Bakker is still ripping people off and messing them over spiritually, I'm sure God will make him pay for that on Judgement Day. Ditto with King David having an affair with a married woman and still continuing as Israel's spiritual leader. Ditto with Paul the Apostle representing God after murdering numerous Christians.
Just for the record, I'm not a "member" to either John's TLTF, or Bakker's Branson MO church, nor have I given even a penny to either of their ministries. If either or both are con artists ripping people off or destroying folks spiritually, I'm sure God Almighty will deal with them come Judgement Day. Call me naive or gullible if you will, but I just respect these two guys or anybody else who strives to make an effort to do God's Will. Will there be some back-sliding here and there? Probably, but give them some credit for persistence and determination.
I hope, WordWolf, this clears some stuff up a little bit.
Peace out.
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T-Bone
FYI Con men are persistent and determined. Call me cynical and leery of con artists and repeat offenders who continue to pull the wool over folks’ eyes by appealing to “the Almighty’s 2nd chances”. In reading passages like Matthew 7: 15-20 and II Peter 2 it seems pretty obvious that it is God’s Will that Christians should NOT have a laissez faire attitude when it comes to con artists, false teachers, and supposed “spiritual leaders” who exploit and abuse others. Sure - let God deal with them on Judgment Day as He sees fit in the hereafter – but meanwhile in the here and now it’s our Christian responsibility to protect the flock from ravenous wolves.
Edited by T-Bonerevision
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Grace Valerie Claire
TRUE!!
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Robinette Byden
That's a beautiful response, T-Bone, in Theory, but in ACTUAL PRACTICE, it absolutely stinks! Was Paul the Apostle a Disciple of Jesus Christ, or just simply a "Spiritual Trouble-shooter"? How many of the Regular Participants here on Grease Spot Cafe have been out of the Way Ministry for a couple Decades and not even attempted to become active again in another Church? How do you possibly fulfill the need for Worship and Fellowship in your spiritual lives by just alienating yourselves for a quarter century OR EVEN LONGER by not giving God a chance to work with you to help others via participating in another Church?
Granted, sometimes Christian leaders need to be publicly called out, such as former Liberty University president Jerry Falwell Jr. -- the guy wasn't obviously fit to be running a Christian college at this point in his life. Nor am I suggesting John Lynn or his TLTF ministry is the answer to all your prayers. But just simply laying back and publicly criticizing somebody like Lynn, or Chris Geer, or Craig Martindale OR, how about trashing somebody who's been dead and buried for about a half century like Victor Paul Weirwille or Howard Allen -- please explain to me how engaging in that type of crap week after week, year after year edifies someone's spiritual life?
Yeah, identifying "wolves in sheep's clothing" might be part of being a disciple of Jesus Christ but let's get REAL, it's a very small part. It certainly doesn't supersede the constant commitment of Forgiveness and Patience it takes to be a part of a regular Church Worship and Fellowship routine.
Personally, I wasn't actively involved in any Church when I left the Way Ministry. As we all know, The Way has its own quirks and distinctions to make being part of another Church really tough to fit in unless you're willing to compromise quite a bit on your beliefs about the Bible. But I couldn't just sit on the proverbial sidelines anymore to simply twiddle my thumbs and do absolutely nothing. I want to be doing something in my life that's part of God's Will while I'm still living and breathing.
Sorry if that offends some people here on this Forum.
Hey, you take care, T-Bone, I sure hope this helps to clear some things up.
Peace out.
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T-Bone
I agree with you – in actual practice it does stink if one is at the receiving end of biblical condemnation. I don’t mean to dash your hopes of clearing things up – but - you seem to have an ax to grind about those who criticize con artists and false teachers. Your false assumptions about Grease Spotters and what is the priority of God’s will tend to obfuscate this discussion. I’m of the opinion that attempts to guilt-trip critics after one’s efforts to sweep moral depravity under the carpet have failed, usually indicates the criticism has touched a nerve.
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Robinette Byden
Hey T-Bone, let's do the Math here, shall we?
Founder and First President of the Way International, Victor Paul Weirwille, Died and was Buried back in 1985 -- THAT'S 35 YEARS AGO!
Both John Lynn and Chris Geer were FIRED from The Way within 5 years after that -- THAT'S AT LEAST 30 YEARS AGO!
The 2nd President of the Way International, L. Craig Martindale was FIRED from The Way in 2000 -- THAT'S 20 YEARS AGO!
Heck, here's an interesting question, out of the current Grease Spot Cafe participants who've made, at least, 100 comments on this Forum thus far, how many (or what percentage) are 59-or-younger? My personal guess would be, less than 5% -- maybe even less than 2% -- of the regulars here would be under the age of 60. If my guess here is accurate, what a total waste of time and life to just trash people from a computer terminal whom you feel messed you over decades, if not quarter centuries, ago!
I've heard from several of the longtime participants here on Grease Spot Cafe, that this is NOT a Christian website -- gee, I never would've guessed. If I'm totally off-base here, what church or Christian denomination does Grease Spot Cafe endorse? Why doesn't Grease Spot offer a sub-section or two devoted for personal testimonies of what great and wonderful things God has done in their lives lately? Why doesn't Grease Spot offer a sub-section dedicated for prayer so people can hopefully be delivered or healed from problems effecting them in their lives?
T-Bone, how many people would you GUESS-TIMATE in the United States right now who are still "suffering" from their former Way Ministry experience? Hundreds? Dozens? Maybe less than 10? Granted, I'm sure there are a few stories out there of folks who really got BLEEPED (emotionally, spiritually, and sometimes even physically) by Way Ministry leadership. Some people in the USA have had some rough times going through Divorces, but they got over it. Some Holacaust survivors have had a hard time after escaping Nazi Concentration camps, but they got over it.
To paraphrase Paul the Apostle, sometimes you just need to "shake off the dust and move on."
Just sayin
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Rocky
For clarification, are you suggesting you know better what any person other than yourself is specifically responsible to do with her/his life, specifically?
Edited by RockyYour comments read like you are condemning GSC and the people who continue to contribute here long after leaving TWI. Is that what you intended?
World population is now estimated by the United Nations to be 7.8 billion people. That could be quite a burden of oversight if that's what you're thinking.
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Robinette Byden
I think I can sum up my views of the main arguments here with this thread in two small paragraphs:
1) Whether you consider "the official turning point of the Way Ministry" 35 years ago (Weirwille's passing), or 20 years ago (Martindale's termination), that's just too long of a time to hold a grudge against somebody. That type of bitterness goes along the same plateau as, the Hatfields vs. the McCoys, or Israel vs. the Arabs. You need a heck a lot more than just changing your name to a pseudonym and spewing out vulgarities over the Internet to ever be delivered from that degree of hatred.
2) Identifying "wolves in sheep's clothing" is really a very small part of what Christianity and the Bible are all about. It certainly doesn't supersede Compassion and Forgiveness. If that's supposed to be the whole objective behind GreaseSpotCafe.com , maybe it's high time some of you 'Old Farts' get your heads together and modify that objective a little bit.
Just sayin
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Grace Valerie Claire
RB, I am an "Old Fart." I attended my first "Twig", well over 40 years ago. I had many positive experiences with TWI for 10 years. However, many others didn't. Many of the women, and some of the men, had very unpleasant experiences with it. I have no idea how old you are, but I am 63. Decades, and decades ago, I was sexually abused by some of the men in my family. I have struggled with PTSD my entire life. It's been very difficult to "get over it." But thank God, for therapists. My present therapist is a young man, who is an excellent therapist; probably the best one I have ever had. I have long forgiven the two men, who abused me, but I have never forgotten it. I have read some of the horrible stories that happened to others, here at the GSC. The TWI presented itself as a, Godly Christian organization. However, it has been reported over, and over, that VPW, and others raped various women, and took money, that didn't belong to them. For a "Christian man", to rape one woman, is shameful. To rape, dozens, or perhaps hundreds, is a tragedy. RB, I pray that you never experience sexual assault; it could leave you with life long scars, and mess you up emotionally for years. Just my opinion.
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Twinky
That's an awfully big assumption to make. How can you possibly know who is or has been active in another (another?) church? How do you know about other peoples' involvement with other Christians?
Look harder, read more carefully: I think you might be surprised.
Especially as you say this of yourself:
Just don't think that because you gave up, others also did.
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T-Bone
There are issues with “let’s do the math”: Counting the years since con artists and false teachers were in power and guessing how to quantify and qualify those still suffering from their cult experience is NOT a viable math problem since you lack relevant facts – guesswork is not facts…Also missing is the clinical research to support your thesis that given X amount of time people should be "over" their bad experiences…Your “thesis” might also suggest there is a no-regard-for-the-thoughts-and-feelings-of-others problem in your own thought process...to expect Grease Spotters to “get over it ” is a callous and cold thing to say…
Remembering the Holocaust is more than honoring the lives lost and families shattered – among other things here’s what several people have said after reading Holocaust survivor Elie Wisel’s “Night”: “ it is vitally important to inform our children so that in their turn they will stand up and not let such atrocities happen again.” … “It'd kind of disturbing to see and hear how these people where treated, but people need to know this stuff. They really do. Especially racial people who don't like people of a different religion or belief. Knowing this makes us think clearer and realize that we are our own enemy”…“The holocaust is relevant to today because there are still situations that occur around the world many are similar to the holocaust that many of us are unaware of, that’s why we need more people like Mr. Elie because we know so little about what he and the others went through those years”
( from from U.S. Holocaust Museum Online – how is the Holocaust relevant today )
The main reason I post on Grease Spot (and I don’t think I’m alone on this) is because there are reasonable and good folks still captivated by a cult mindset – whether they're in The Way International or some splinter group - who check out Grease Spot and hopefully something clicks in their minds and a yearning to think freely takes its first deep breath in.
Edited by T-Boneformatting and typos
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Rocky
Your empathy seems to be deficient. Your apparent need to pass judgment on people who post here more than makes up for it.
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Rocky
Btw, it appears you've not had any significant contact in your life with journalists or historians. Of course, I could be wrong. However, journalists and historians tell the stories of what has happened.
Humans are ALL about STORIES.
What has been your experience with stories?
Are you still IN twi? Just askin' ...
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