*Yesterday* for me is 20+ years ago. I have had my choice/chance to return to it, and somehow -- the appeal has been lost. -->
quote:
Yesterday all my trouble's seemed so far away,
Now it looks as though they`re here to stay ... yada yada yada
Return?? No. I'll look for returns in other areas, but NOT a return to that which steals, kills, and destroys.
Much more profitable (to me) than putting time and effort into something that *returns you a knife in the back* for hard work, believing, and dedication to what they propound. :)-->
ps -- the last *180* I did, was on snow (we get a lot of it up here in Minnesota -- and it usually ends up on the roads, and not just the gas pumps). Believe me -- it was purely unintentional -- and the moment I had complete control of my vehicle -- I reversed that *180*, and continued the way I intended to go.
then years back, you may have been convinced your were right
Sure we (I) thought that we (I) were correct. We were told so. And if doubt ever entered our minds (my mind), we were specifically told "Hey!! Don't take my word for it --- look it up in the Word!"
Well -- some of us did, and maybe that makes us *more right* now, and maybe it doesn't. But we're just (I'm just) following instructions!
Forget who said it, but the quote is appropriate:
Read It And Weep.
Yea -- some good stuff/teaching there, and that was worth hanging onto. But twi overall?? No.
Doesn't fit, mdvaden. I repudiated Wierwille's teachings as having any value a long time ago. 17 yrs. ago... But I didn't replace them with a new set of beliefs that I thought better. Instead, I changed the focus of my Christianity. it was no longer about what I believe and being right, rather it became about who I am serving and knowing Him.
In my experience, adherents to Wierwilleology don't know Jesus. He is the essence of our religion and he's basically absent from WayWorldOlogy.
In the New Testament there were the pinheads who "worked the word" and knew it like nobody else. They were called scribes & Pharisees. They were the true Bible bleevers of their day. Then there were those who followed Jesus. They were known as disciples. The Master interpreted scriptures dark sayings to them. Peter didn't come to know Christ for He really was by working the texts and applying the "keys". As Jesus told him "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven."
The 180 I did after leaving twi almost 15 years ago, after 15 years of dedicated involvement is this.....
I started serving God, rather than an organization.
The doors have opened up for me to be those *hands and feet* of God. I am free to take care of whatever need crosses my path....many times to hear someone tearfully proclaim *[praise the lord, I have been praying
....but didn`t know if God would hear me*
It puts chills down my spine when I think about being the instrument used by God to meet someones need or reafirm their faith in a loving Heavenly father.
I see my life as an ongoing adventure with God as I grow and learn each new lesson presented.
Go back?? Never, when I was in twi, though the fellowship with friends was wonderfull....the friends and activities I enjoy now make my twi experience pale in comparison.
I think maybe that folks involved for many years with twi, tend to underestimate the quality of people and ability of God to continue our spiritual education.
Life really isn't as black & white as taught in TWI. Maya Angelou said, "when we know better, we do better." I agree.
Actually, a lot of what I heard in TWI I already had learned in the Baptist church and/or from my parents. Other things were new to me, but they were mostly the "shock value" teachings that now I question as to how those teachings help me in my personal relationship with God.
To paraphrase a quote heard quite often in TWI, "If you aren't growing; you're dying. Nothing is stagnant." So, yes, I'm "proving whether those things are so" and holding on to the good. If I learn better, then I'll do better, but I don't wonder if I'll look back on "today" as I look back on "yesterday". I just keep moving along and try to learn from my mistakes.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but life is a growth process and I'm continually learning new things and seeing things in a different light. It doesn't mean I think everything I did or thought "then" was wrong. I was doing the best I could. I think most people are also doing the best they can, we're just at different stages and places in life and some people's "best" is nowhere near other people's "best".
I CAN tell you that I will never regret leaving a manipulative, lying, destructive group and reconciling with my family and friends and asking their forgiveness for being so cold, cruel and heartless for so many years.
How about you, MDVaden? Have you changed how you've though over the years? If so, will you change again?
What do you think about TWI's changing on tithe vs. abundant sharing and net vs. gross income giving? TWI's changing doctrine and teachings on owning a home vs. renting? TWI's teaching on adultery being okay to teaching that it's NOT okay and sex outside of marriage is no longer okay? Are there any other parts that you hold to and others that you correct?
and what the f*** if I do??????? do I lose my secret PFAL decoder ring?? how do you understand 1 Corinthians 13:9??? You know it all cuzza piffle?? puhh-leeze!! How in h did BG Leonard and JE Stiles learn all they did about receiving the gift of holy spirit without piffle??? why it boggles da mind.... --> --> :o--> --> --> :P-->
Besides the nazi-type micromanagement of leadership, I left because I started questioning doctrine I had believed for 20 years. Where was Jesus in all of this? Why was he the head of the church and absent of it also???? Why couldn't I talk to him or have a relationship with him if he's the head of the church? All of these things were burning on my heart and then I went to church. I got to know my Lord in a more personal way, and it wasn't an issue of "Is He God? Is he not?" Those were out of my mind. I just wanted to know him better.
Where that takes me in two years, I don't know. But as the Word says, Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths. That's my only concern in life or what will be two years from now. There's much more freedom in that than being in the right ministry who is the only place that teaches the Word righly-divided. My last years in The Way remind me so much of phariseeism. There's no freedom in that.
I can't see myself doing a "180", i.e. turning myself completely back in the direction that I am coming from, but I can see myself doing a '90", a "270", a "137" etc. :D-->
My current beliefs are not set in stone, and I expect to change my mind about some things; but I have rejected the TWI view of the universe and the abusive atmosphere in which they flourished
In the 5 years since leaving twi, I have considered many different points of view, and exposed myself to a variety of philosophies and spiritual ideas, and just a whole host of things that I never thought about, or allowed myself to think too deeply about while involved in a fundamentalist cult.
When you spend 12 years sifting every thought and experience through the Wayworld filter, you don't realize how restrictive your view of life has become until that filter has been removed for awhile.
I can't say for sure where I will be, or what my belief system will entail in 5 years, but I know that it will grow and evolve, which is something that did not happen in twi. As someone mentioned in the thread on “leaven”, once we were thoroughly indoctrinated in twi’s belief system (the Word is the ministry, and the ministry is the Word), anything thought process that deviated from that mindset was not explored in any depth…after all if you belong to the group with THE TRUTH, anything else can only be ERROR…does not leave a lot of room for independent thought or exploration does it?”
My beliefs will undoubtedly change, grow, and evolve, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Having finally escaped from groupthink, a 180 degree return to that bondage is not an option. Change my mind? Absolutely! That is the right, privilege, and joy of being free to think outside the Way box!
Should that be the case, or close, do you ever wonder if 5 years will pass, and you will look back on today, as today you look back on "yesterday" (the other years)??
If you mean do I wonder if in 5 years I'll look back on what I believe now and see that I've changed some of those beliefs? Then my answer is I hope so. I don't ever want to stop changing, and growing, and learning. Though, that belief might changes as well {grin}
However if you mean will I see my old way beliefs in the positive light that I now reject? Then I have to say my answer is no. The reason is my old way beliefs were answers to a set of questions I no longer ask in the same way. It's not that I reject the answers (and may come around to rejecting my rejection) it's that I reject the questions. Or rather, I reject the notions that there are answers in ways that I used to expect them. I'm happier now with a lot more questions than I ever was with the anwers.
I can tell that when I see discussions on this board about "was this old teaching right or wrong?" or "how much of that stuff was good and how much was evil?" My reaction to those discussion is usually, along the lines of "Who cares?" or "Man, this does not relate to me at all"
well mdvaden i guess this thread didn't turn out like you thought eh?
oh well
i think it's pretty amazing how fast one guy can go from being regarded as a kindly gent who's all about doing God's will to being considered a confidence arteest who's only objective is to make a fast buck in the religion racket
hero one minute bum the next
it's just like playing major league baseball in Philadelphia!!
If you do a 90 degree turn in 2 years - or 45 degrees every single year, then that means you have the potential of being back at the 45 degree mark after 5 years (360 degrees = 4 years).
So if that's the case, then wouldn't you believe half of what you did when you were in TWI?
You'd believe that God wasn't a trinity but 1.5 gods...
The dead aren't alive - they're half dead....
There's no angels - just half-angels (one wing & a "c" shaped halo?)...
You don't ABS 10+% - just 5+%...
The MOG is just a half-MOG... (MOG = Man Of God)...
Leadership is right just 50% of the time...
You're only half a cult member...
Speaking in Tongues is almost perfect prayer...
You only have to be half debt free (the top half? or the bottom half?)
You only have to finish class sessions 1-6...
Logical? Not really.
So how can you say measuring one's beliefs is logical?
As Belle said, life isn't that black & white. If you think it is then I hope you're comfortable in your closely measured and calculated little world. As for me, I'd rather glean that which is or was good and move on with life. For me, that means never getting caught up in another bottom-feeding organization like TWI turned out to be.
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Raf
You mean will I do something like:
believe in and teach the Trinity, then change my mind and preach against it?
believe in and teach immediate life after death, then turn around and teach the opposite?
believe in and teach tradition, then reverse myself and teach what I think the Bible actually says, and throw tradition to the wind?
God, I hope I change my mind as more accurate information comes to light for me. It's what Dr. Wierwille did.
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dmiller
*Yesterday* for me is 20+ years ago. I have had my choice/chance to return to it, and somehow -- the appeal has been lost.
-->
Return?? No. I'll look for returns in other areas, but NOT a return to that which steals, kills, and destroys.
Much more profitable (to me) than putting time and effort into something that *returns you a knife in the back* for hard work, believing, and dedication to what they propound.
:)-->
ps -- the last *180* I did, was on snow (we get a lot of it up here in Minnesota -- and it usually ends up on the roads, and not just the gas pumps). Believe me -- it was purely unintentional -- and the moment I had complete control of my vehicle -- I reversed that *180*, and continued the way I intended to go.
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dmiller
Sure we (I) thought that we (I) were correct. We were told so. And if doubt ever entered our minds (my mind), we were specifically told "Hey!! Don't take my word for it --- look it up in the Word!"
Well -- some of us did, and maybe that makes us *more right* now, and maybe it doesn't. But we're just (I'm just) following instructions!
Forget who said it, but the quote is appropriate:
Read It And Weep.
Yea -- some good stuff/teaching there, and that was worth hanging onto. But twi overall?? No.
Nuff said.
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TheEvan
Doesn't fit, mdvaden. I repudiated Wierwille's teachings as having any value a long time ago. 17 yrs. ago... But I didn't replace them with a new set of beliefs that I thought better. Instead, I changed the focus of my Christianity. it was no longer about what I believe and being right, rather it became about who I am serving and knowing Him.
In my experience, adherents to Wierwilleology don't know Jesus. He is the essence of our religion and he's basically absent from WayWorldOlogy.
In the New Testament there were the pinheads who "worked the word" and knew it like nobody else. They were called scribes & Pharisees. They were the true Bible bleevers of their day. Then there were those who followed Jesus. They were known as disciples. The Master interpreted scriptures dark sayings to them. Peter didn't come to know Christ for He really was by working the texts and applying the "keys". As Jesus told him "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in heaven."
Think about it.
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WordWolf
First of all,
this belongs in "About The Way", or, possibly, "Doctrine". (Again.)
Please keep the "Open" forum for subjects that have nothing to do with what other
forums are specifically for.
=======
I shall quote from the US Declaration of Independence,
then explain the relevance.
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they
are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these
are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights,
governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent
of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of
these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to
institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing
its powers in such form, as to them shall most likely to effect their Safety
and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established
should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience
has shown, that mankind are more disposed ton suffer, while evils are sufferable,
than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariable the same
Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right,
it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their
future security."
------
Now,
what does this have to do with this thread? Back to that in a minute.
There's 2 different issues here, and neither should be confused with the other.
There's the organization vpw started, and the doctrine vpw taught.
Too many people here have too many horror stories-established with witnesses-
as to evil and despicable acts committed in the name of the organization,
and covered up by the organization, considering people disposable and seeing fit
to ruin someone's life rather than admit some wrong was done to them.
I trust you're not saying "why not return to the organization", but, if you
really want to know, start a new thread asking that.
The relevance of the Declaration?
Well, that's simple. The passage in question speaks of what to do in the case of
a "long train of abuses", and how people will endure some evil in order to retain
"the ministry that taught you the Word", so to speak.
-----
Now, as to the individual teachings and doctrines.....
that's already been addressed, and answered.
Few here just woke up one morning and trashed the books.
(I think a few might have, after enduring despicable acts at the hands of
vpw himself, but that's understandable.)
This was a matter of learning that what you previously believed was WRONG,
and changing your mind to reflect learning better.
"God, I hope I change my mind as more accurate information comes to light for me."
Further,
the approach of twi, as all-or-nothing as it is, is flawed.
A greater knowledge of Scriptures has value, but, to the exclusion of everything
else, it hobbles the Christian at the same time.
Knowledge puffs up, God's love builds up.
Jesus did NOT come that we might have a greater number of verses and an indepth
understanding of the Torah-
he came that we might have Life.
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rascal
The 180 I did after leaving twi almost 15 years ago, after 15 years of dedicated involvement is this.....
I started serving God, rather than an organization.
The doors have opened up for me to be those *hands and feet* of God. I am free to take care of whatever need crosses my path....many times to hear someone tearfully proclaim *[praise the lord, I have been praying
....but didn`t know if God would hear me*
It puts chills down my spine when I think about being the instrument used by God to meet someones need or reafirm their faith in a loving Heavenly father.
I see my life as an ongoing adventure with God as I grow and learn each new lesson presented.
Go back?? Never, when I was in twi, though the fellowship with friends was wonderfull....the friends and activities I enjoy now make my twi experience pale in comparison.
I think maybe that folks involved for many years with twi, tend to underestimate the quality of people and ability of God to continue our spiritual education.
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George Aar
MdV,
Your statement seems to imply that one should never change their mind. If you make a mistake you should have to stick with it, regardless.
Fine, if that's the way you want to live. Personally there's lots of stuff I'm fine with leaving behind:
old girlfriends
my "Monkees" fanclub card
my "Shaklee" dealership license
my UFO and other paranormal books
and, yes, my attachment to a narcissistic Ohio blowhard and conman
Your mileage may vary...
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Belle
MDVaden,
Life really isn't as black & white as taught in TWI. Maya Angelou said, "when we know better, we do better." I agree.
Actually, a lot of what I heard in TWI I already had learned in the Baptist church and/or from my parents. Other things were new to me, but they were mostly the "shock value" teachings that now I question as to how those teachings help me in my personal relationship with God.
To paraphrase a quote heard quite often in TWI, "If you aren't growing; you're dying. Nothing is stagnant." So, yes, I'm "proving whether those things are so" and holding on to the good. If I learn better, then I'll do better, but I don't wonder if I'll look back on "today" as I look back on "yesterday". I just keep moving along and try to learn from my mistakes.
I'm not sure what you're getting at, but life is a growth process and I'm continually learning new things and seeing things in a different light. It doesn't mean I think everything I did or thought "then" was wrong. I was doing the best I could. I think most people are also doing the best they can, we're just at different stages and places in life and some people's "best" is nowhere near other people's "best".
I CAN tell you that I will never regret leaving a manipulative, lying, destructive group and reconciling with my family and friends and asking their forgiveness for being so cold, cruel and heartless for so many years.
How about you, MDVaden? Have you changed how you've though over the years? If so, will you change again?
What do you think about TWI's changing on tithe vs. abundant sharing and net vs. gross income giving? TWI's changing doctrine and teachings on owning a home vs. renting? TWI's teaching on adultery being okay to teaching that it's NOT okay and sex outside of marriage is no longer okay? Are there any other parts that you hold to and others that you correct?
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Belle
George! Say it isn't so!!! You can't leave your "Monkees" fanclub card behind!
:(-->
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Abigail
I sure hope 2 years from now I will think and believe differently from today. I'd hate to think I spent the time stagnating.
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George Aar
Belle,
Yeah, I know it's hard to believe.
That Davy was so darn cute!
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alfakat
and what the f*** if I do??????? do I lose my secret PFAL decoder ring?? how do you understand 1 Corinthians 13:9??? You know it all cuzza piffle?? puhh-leeze!! How in h did BG Leonard and JE Stiles learn all they did about receiving the gift of holy spirit without piffle??? why it boggles da mind....
--> 
--> 
:o--> 
--> 
--> 
:P-->
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excathedra
alfie, can you tell me how you really feel ? hey if you wanna' wait 2 years, that's cool
;)-->
and geo. i wish you would have given me that monkees fanclub card
i'm a believer i couldn't leave her if i tried
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ex10
Ohmigosh, what Evan said.
"Being right" means nothing. I think Jesus had a thing or two to say about that...
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Nottawayfer
Besides the nazi-type micromanagement of leadership, I left because I started questioning doctrine I had believed for 20 years. Where was Jesus in all of this? Why was he the head of the church and absent of it also???? Why couldn't I talk to him or have a relationship with him if he's the head of the church? All of these things were burning on my heart and then I went to church. I got to know my Lord in a more personal way, and it wasn't an issue of "Is He God? Is he not?" Those were out of my mind. I just wanted to know him better.
Where that takes me in two years, I don't know. But as the Word says, Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct your paths. That's my only concern in life or what will be two years from now. There's much more freedom in that than being in the right ministry who is the only place that teaches the Word righly-divided. My last years in The Way remind me so much of phariseeism. There's no freedom in that.
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Oakspear
I can't see myself doing a "180", i.e. turning myself completely back in the direction that I am coming from, but I can see myself doing a '90", a "270", a "137" etc.
:D-->
My current beliefs are not set in stone, and I expect to change my mind about some things; but I have rejected the TWI view of the universe and the abusive atmosphere in which they flourished
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Belle
I hope MDVaden didn't get in too much trouble and that he gets to come back to read the responses.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
my gosh i hope i will change my mind in 2 years or even tommorow! isn't that why God gave us free will!
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
right wrong or indefferent,that's what it's all about.. thank God i have my free mind again!
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2fortheroad
In the 5 years since leaving twi, I have considered many different points of view, and exposed myself
to a variety of philosophies and spiritual ideas, and just a whole host of things that I never thought about, or allowed myself to think too deeply about while involved in a fundamentalist cult.
When you spend 12 years sifting every thought and experience through the Wayworld filter, you don't realize how restrictive your view of life has become until that filter has been removed for awhile.
I can't say for sure where I will be, or what my belief system will entail in 5 years, but I know that it will grow and evolve, which is something that did not happen in twi. As someone mentioned in the thread on “leaven”, once we were thoroughly indoctrinated in twi’s belief system (the Word is the ministry, and the ministry is the Word), anything thought process that deviated from that mindset was not explored in any depth…after all if you belong to the group with THE TRUTH, anything else can only be ERROR…does not leave a lot of room for independent thought or exploration does it?”
My beliefs will undoubtedly change, grow, and evolve, and I wouldn’t have it any other way. Having finally escaped from groupthink, a 180 degree return to that bondage is not an option. Change my mind? Absolutely! That is the right, privilege, and joy of being free to think outside the Way box!
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My3Cents
If you mean do I wonder if in 5 years I'll look back on what I believe now and see that I've changed some of those beliefs? Then my answer is I hope so. I don't ever want to stop changing, and growing, and learning. Though, that belief might changes as well {grin}
However if you mean will I see my old way beliefs in the positive light that I now reject? Then I have to say my answer is no. The reason is my old way beliefs were answers to a set of questions I no longer ask in the same way. It's not that I reject the answers (and may come around to rejecting my rejection) it's that I reject the questions. Or rather, I reject the notions that there are answers in ways that I used to expect them. I'm happier now with a lot more questions than I ever was with the anwers.
I can tell that when I see discussions on this board about "was this old teaching right or wrong?" or "how much of that stuff was good and how much was evil?" My reaction to those discussion is usually, along the lines of "Who cares?" or "Man, this does not relate to me at all"
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johniam
The King of Zor called for war, the King of Zam he answered, they gave a war and nobody came!
Geo a Monkees fan? We'd a never thawt eet.
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ljn698
well mdvaden i guess this thread didn't turn out like you thought eh?
oh well
i think it's pretty amazing how fast one guy can go from being regarded as a kindly gent who's all about doing God's will to being considered a confidence arteest who's only objective is to make a fast buck in the religion racket
hero one minute bum the next
it's just like playing major league baseball in Philadelphia!!
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ChasUFarley
If you do a 90 degree turn in 2 years - or 45 degrees every single year, then that means you have the potential of being back at the 45 degree mark after 5 years (360 degrees = 4 years).
So if that's the case, then wouldn't you believe half of what you did when you were in TWI?
You'd believe that God wasn't a trinity but 1.5 gods...
The dead aren't alive - they're half dead....
There's no angels - just half-angels (one wing & a "c" shaped halo?)...
You don't ABS 10+% - just 5+%...
The MOG is just a half-MOG... (MOG = Man Of God)...
Leadership is right just 50% of the time...
You're only half a cult member...
Speaking in Tongues is almost perfect prayer...
You only have to be half debt free (the top half? or the bottom half?)
You only have to finish class sessions 1-6...
Logical? Not really.
So how can you say measuring one's beliefs is logical?
As Belle said, life isn't that black & white. If you think it is then I hope you're comfortable in your closely measured and calculated little world. As for me, I'd rather glean that which is or was good and move on with life. For me, that means never getting caught up in another bottom-feeding organization like TWI turned out to be.
Pity. Such a waste.
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