There are a lot of so-called "paranormal" things out there. Certainly, many are fake, but some are authentic. The Way convinced us that anything which was not explainable was probably the work of the Adversary. By doing this, the Way maintained all the power, don't you see? People wouldn't question how some strange event or item functioned, because we just chalked it up to the Devil. It prohibited us from learning and from considering possibilities other than Way teachings. It was like when people were all taught that the earth was flat. Nobody bothered to consider otherwise.
Of course, when unexplainable things happened for the good, it was always said to be because some Way Believer was present, again identifying the power with the Ministry.
The Advanced Class served to make all of us feel a little guilty and to cause us to question our own righteousness, because everyone has done some of the things which were taught to be "devil-ish". Like reading the Tolkein books, listening to certain music, wearing a cross. It also alienated us from all the other people in the world, who were also doing such things, because surely they were possessed.
Con men and their hustles? The Way was the biggest of all.
The Advanced Class served to make all of us feel a little guilty and to cause us to question our own righteousness, because everyone has done some of the things which were taught to be "devil-ish". Like reading the Tolkein books, listening to certain music, wearing a cross. It also alienated us from all the other people in the world, who were also doing such things, because surely they were possessed.
Maybe we were in different Advanced Classes. I never heard anyone mention Tolkien or wearing a cross as something we should STILL be ashamed for doing in the past. Actually, I don't think I remember Tolkien ever mentioned. I took both VP's and LCM's.
I came away on a pretty emotional high after leaving each one. Of course, experiences do seem to vary a LOT around here. Did you take in the 80s, 90s or later? What DO you call the decade we're in anyway? The "0s?" Oh, wait, how unprevailing of me. It's the Decade of Prevailing! You know, the decade that has been going on for 15 years now. ;)-->
Or how about the "slaying in the spirit" Where people fall backwards? Those people were possessed, remember?
I tried explaining to an offshootie lady (who was educating me while we were watching some religious show where they were doing this) that much of this had to do with "group think" they think they have to do this, they see others do it and they feel they have to do it too etc....etc..etc..
But NOPE. She told me the people who fell backwards were possessed. That the minister was actually ministering a devil spirit to the people when he touched them on their heads.
And the people who didn't fall over weren't possessed.
I forgot to welcome you to the Cafe'. :(--> I'm glad you're here!
Rottie,
I once tried to use my OWN experience with that by telling my LC that my church whispered in my ear that it was ok to fall down. Personally, I thought it was stupid and passed. Did TWI chalk that up to my parents raising me with common sense? Nope. It was my guardian angel protecting my brain for that bad ole devil spirit circling my head.
they would have seemed more credible if everything wasn't spiritualized. even my mom, who believes in an evil power used to look at me like.....
**
this is off the subject maybe but seems as good a time as any to tell
my son (5th grade) asked me last week if dead people ever talk to me in my head. i said no, i don't think so. then he told me they were reading a story about beethoven in class (i think that's who he said, someone like that). anyway, beethoven asked him if wanted to be a musican and he said, "no way, hockey is what i love." and beethoven said, "good luck, i hope you make it to the NHL."
and that was it. i told him "cool."
:)-->
oh, i did tell him that grandma talks to her mom in her head all the time
so all these folks are possessed and we have this spirit of God and they have the spirit of evil right?
Well if we have the right power and they have the wrong power or lesser power. Our God is the most high God, but they have a right to live here and all what the heck good does it do ?
I do not get it.
Is it like well they are bad we have the good , but look they can do all these crazy evil things of whcih we notice but cant stop.
How is that any better cause we get to decide they are bad and we are good and life goes on, why would God do that? Just so we know ? I do not get it.
JT: ROTFL! I can just picture that devil spirit circling around your head and your angel clubbing him. :P-->
quote:
Originally posted by excathedra:
they would have seemed more credible if everything wasn't spiritualized. even my mom, who believes in an evil power used to look at me like.....
Boy is THAT the understatement! Everything was a devil spirit, thank GOD I got over that.
Several years ago I was having lunch with the same aforementioned lady and she told me she couldn't find a reciept she needed because a devil spirit hid it.
I almost spit out my food and started laughing, but I looked at her face and she was dead serious.
All I could think of was I hope she didn't volenteer this information with too many other people, because the on switch would be turned off real quick.
Perhaps I should be feeling a bit "guilty" pertaining to the "Advanced Class" this morning because...I just put up my old "Advanced Class" syllabus on the Ebay auction block (lol).
But I hardly look at it anymore.
I continue to maintain an open mind as to there being an unseen spiritual dimension...but it retrospect, the Way emphasis on devils-all-around-us didn't allow the hoped and hyped "window" into that world - but as Horse so astutely pointed out, we got suckered as much as perhaps anyone else into accepting the various "paranormal" scams out there (e.g., psychic surgery, "ectoplasm", etc.) were actual spiritual manifestations of some sort.
Of course the Way is not alone among the various religions, new and old, yearning for those types of things, along with the ghost-hunters (with all their various "light ball" pictures) and UFOologists
(and all of their various, fuzzy "light ball" pictures as well).
Evil spirit powers do exist. Right before we got in the Word, some of my family went to a lady who was a fortune teller. She had a familiar spirit, though we didn't know it then. She was telling us stuff about our family that she had no way of knowing otherwise.
I firmly believe that devil spirits do exist and that people do get possessed. I also firmly believe that many in TWI were overly quick to judge and condemn and accuse their fellow TWI members of being possessed just because certain actions or words did not correspond to what that particular member viewed as correct words or deeds.
So, if one didn't want to be accused to being possessed, one tolled that the straight and narrow path. Don't contradict any TWI teachings or offer any insight not blessed by the research staff of the BOT.
I think "they" would not recognize a real spurt if it came up and bit them in the rear end. So many years crying "wolf"- so much time looking for spirits in the most unlikely and unlogical places. Spirits everywhere- behind every tree, behind every idol, behind every misunderstood motivation. Underneath every rock.
After a while, even if they had the slightest itch they were convinced that there MUST be at least one there.
Perhaps they were there- I think we were just looking at the wrong end of the organization.
Prior to my Way days I checked out a lot of the spiritual/meditation groups - Krishna, Silva Mind Control, TM, ESP, sceances, reincarnation studies , and even a group of satanists (who were without a doubt the most boring group of people I have ever met). I had this real desire to find evidence of spiritual existence but in all this effort I found nothing - zilch - nada - rien ! There were people with lots of stories on how they had seen this or seen that or how someone read another's mind but when it came time to reproduce any of this it never happened. During a sceance this woman put her hand on my leg (Said she was afraid). Now that caused the spirits to rise ! Of course I had to see her home safely... *ahem*
Anyway. After I landed with TWI I got a hold of that book "The Challenging Counterfeit" by Rafael Gasson (spelling might be wrong) which was required reading for would be advanced class students. Interesting book. There was a guy who couldn't walk a city block without some type of in-your-face, over-the-top spirtual phenomena going on yet here I was , enthusiastically pursuing evidence of such but came up dry. Someone in TWI later told me that "God must have been protecting you".
Of course this runs counter to TWI mentality where if you even have the wrong album in your house it could mean eventual devil possession. I mean to a Way person if you even think of "spirits" then you are well on your way to being possessed.
Well I'm not suggesting that there aren't spirits out there just that it seems to be the more common case that they *don't* communicate with us as much as some people would have you believe. I think mediums in general are just opportunists looking to benefit from those in grief or those looking for answers. And people are so desperate that they will believe most anything from these people.
they had some psychic show on TV a few years back I think and it was a total joke. It turns out that they had active microphones scatterred throughout the studio audience
so the "medium" could over hear conversations which he would later use to convince people that he had some special knowledge.
In the end I must say that I've had a few eyeopening experiences that I can can't explain and they were of a very positive nature. I'm not ready to shut the book on paranormal experiences though I rarely give it any thought because there are plenty of things to deal with in the here and now.
Con men and scam artists are polished craftsman - sleight of hand and deception are practiced arts. These people can and do EARN a living off of deceiving people. Ask yourself honestly: why would the Way not elaborate on con men and their hustles? Why would they not at LEAST mention the fact that it was a strong possibility?
Because that would involve their followers developing and using, as you mentioned, logic, scientific research and critical thinking skills; the result of which could have been viewpoints divergent from the Way's teaching (doctrine and dogma).
Also, I'm not so sure Wierwille, Martindale, Rivenbark et al would have been interested in having their "adherents" adept at spotting con-men and -women.
Ask yourself honestly: why would the Way not elaborate on con men and their hustles? Why would they not at LEAST mention the fact that it was a strong possibility?
It's obvious to me. The Way International was a scam itself. If they were using similar techniques to the scam artists that trick people into believing in the paranormal, what would prevent Joe Believer from using the same sort of knowledge against TWI, which was a scam as well? That's also why they were tricky about their biblical research and knowledge, and instead went from actual research to something more watered down and non-specific. If they just read verses from the bible telling you "Do the Word, be strong in the Lord" and other things like that, but never told you what "the Word" is or how to "be strong in the Lord" then you can never realize that they are a con. They gave us enough information to make us think that they were teaching us the Bible, but they never did go into specific doctrine that we could hold them accountable for. The result is that most TWI people are confused and think that they are missing something in their personal studies, or if they form an opinion based on scripture that TWI later contradicts, they are taught that they are the ones who are wrong and they need to "renew their minds" to TWI.
Well, I'm perfectly willing to believe in any sort of paranormal stuff, if I'd ever see any evidence of any. So far, zip.
Until then, I'm a firm believer in the laws of physics.
BTW, I second the notion that the Amazing Randi is an excellent source of rational explanations for all those fantastic events going on around us (actually the careful reader will realize that I've been touting Randi for quite some time now).
If you'd like to perform paranormal feats all on your own, take a look at this site:
Mr. Rowland is an accomplished "cold reader", and not only does it, but teaches others how to tap into these resources from the "other side". You'll have to buy his book to get the whole story, but basically you learn to ask a whole bunch of questions.
The human experience is not that exceptional from person to person, and basic issues crop up over and over and over again. All one need do to be an accomplished seer, is ask questions like "Has someone recently passed on in your family?" "Did they like to eat?" "Did they have a beloved pet?" or you can ask seemingly more specific questions like "I getting a 'j', does that make any sense?" "I get a sense 'water' was nearby?"
If you get a "no" or an unenthusiastic response, move on quickly and keep firing questions. Keep them vague and general, and keep reading your mark's reactions very closely.
It's amazing how little you have to give to desparate people to earn their enthusiastic support. Mention that Uncle John had a favorite pet dog, and that he liked to eat Bar-be-que, and they'll walk away convinced that they contacted the "other side".
It's a sideshow. An act. A contrived parlor trick. As is all of the paranormal stuff I've ever seen in the media. And,... as was TWI and the related "Jesus" movement of the '70s.
Or so this unrepentant infidel would have you believe...
George, I remember seeing some kind of program- may have been National Geographic or something- the witchdoctors would drink something like latex and later heave it up, proving that they could remove "curses" other witchdoctors put on them.
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Xena
There are a lot of so-called "paranormal" things out there. Certainly, many are fake, but some are authentic. The Way convinced us that anything which was not explainable was probably the work of the Adversary. By doing this, the Way maintained all the power, don't you see? People wouldn't question how some strange event or item functioned, because we just chalked it up to the Devil. It prohibited us from learning and from considering possibilities other than Way teachings. It was like when people were all taught that the earth was flat. Nobody bothered to consider otherwise.
Of course, when unexplainable things happened for the good, it was always said to be because some Way Believer was present, again identifying the power with the Ministry.
The Advanced Class served to make all of us feel a little guilty and to cause us to question our own righteousness, because everyone has done some of the things which were taught to be "devil-ish". Like reading the Tolkein books, listening to certain music, wearing a cross. It also alienated us from all the other people in the world, who were also doing such things, because surely they were possessed.
Con men and their hustles? The Way was the biggest of all.
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Raf
I think I owe you both a cup of coffee.
Welcome to the Cafe.
And to freedom.
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JustThinking
Xena,
Maybe we were in different Advanced Classes. I never heard anyone mention Tolkien or wearing a cross as something we should STILL be ashamed for doing in the past. Actually, I don't think I remember Tolkien ever mentioned. I took both VP's and LCM's.
I came away on a pretty emotional high after leaving each one. Of course, experiences do seem to vary a LOT around here. Did you take in the 80s, 90s or later? What DO you call the decade we're in anyway? The "0s?" Oh, wait, how unprevailing of me. It's the Decade of Prevailing! You know, the decade that has been going on for 15 years now.
;)-->
JT
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RottieGrrrl
Or how about the "slaying in the spirit" Where people fall backwards? Those people were possessed, remember?
I tried explaining to an offshootie lady (who was educating me while we were watching some religious show where they were doing this) that much of this had to do with "group think" they think they have to do this, they see others do it and they feel they have to do it too etc....etc..etc..
But NOPE. She told me the people who fell backwards were possessed. That the minister was actually ministering a devil spirit to the people when he touched them on their heads.
And the people who didn't fall over weren't possessed.
OOOOOOkay.
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JustThinking
Xena,
I forgot to welcome you to the Cafe'.
:(--> I'm glad you're here!
Rottie,
I once tried to use my OWN experience with that by telling my LC that my church whispered in my ear that it was ok to fall down. Personally, I thought it was stupid and passed. Did TWI chalk that up to my parents raising me with common sense? Nope. It was my guardian angel protecting my brain for that bad ole devil spirit circling my head.
JT
p.s. Love the new faces, Paw!
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excathedra
great thread, horse
they would have seemed more credible if everything wasn't spiritualized. even my mom, who believes in an evil power used to look at me like.....
**
this is off the subject maybe but seems as good a time as any to tell
my son (5th grade) asked me last week if dead people ever talk to me in my head. i said no, i don't think so. then he told me they were reading a story about beethoven in class (i think that's who he said, someone like that). anyway, beethoven asked him if wanted to be a musican and he said, "no way, hockey is what i love." and beethoven said, "good luck, i hope you make it to the NHL."
and that was it. i told him "cool."
oh, i did tell him that grandma talks to her mom in her head all the time
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mj412
this is the part I do not get:
if I can explain it right.
so all these folks are possessed and we have this spirit of God and they have the spirit of evil right?
Well if we have the right power and they have the wrong power or lesser power. Our God is the most high God, but they have a right to live here and all what the heck good does it do ?
I do not get it.
Is it like well they are bad we have the good , but look they can do all these crazy evil things of whcih we notice but cant stop.
How is that any better cause we get to decide they are bad and we are good and life goes on, why would God do that? Just so we know ? I do not get it.
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RottieGrrrl
Welomce Xena and Horse!
JT: ROTFL! I can just picture that devil spirit circling around your head and your angel clubbing him.
:P-->
Boy is THAT the understatement! Everything was a devil spirit, thank GOD I got over that.
Several years ago I was having lunch with the same aforementioned lady and she told me she couldn't find a reciept she needed because a devil spirit hid it.
I almost spit out my food and started laughing, but I looked at her face and she was dead serious.
All I could think of was I hope she didn't volenteer this information with too many other people, because the on switch would be turned off real quick.
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mj412
What good does it do to know about a devil spirit?
Like they used to say Where is the profit in that?
haha Should I feel better now oh well it is a devil spirit and all is right with the world?
I do not get it . So what the dog ate your homework or the devil did it where is flip wilson?
do people feel better giving problems names like devil spirit or something?
Well the reason this happens is because this devil spirit did this and so detailed to!!
oh well that explains everything I feel better now. huh?
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TheInvisibleDan
Perhaps I should be feeling a bit "guilty" pertaining to the "Advanced Class" this morning because...I just put up my old "Advanced Class" syllabus on the Ebay auction block (lol).
But I hardly look at it anymore.
I continue to maintain an open mind as to there being an unseen spiritual dimension...but it retrospect, the Way emphasis on devils-all-around-us didn't allow the hoped and hyped "window" into that world - but as Horse so astutely pointed out, we got suckered as much as perhaps anyone else into accepting the various "paranormal" scams out there (e.g., psychic surgery, "ectoplasm", etc.) were actual spiritual manifestations of some sort.
Of course the Way is not alone among the various religions, new and old, yearning for those types of things, along with the ghost-hunters (with all their various "light ball" pictures) and UFOologists
(and all of their various, fuzzy "light ball" pictures as well).
Danny
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ljn698
one time i got free tix to go see a show at the Trump Castle in Atlantic City
so i took this girl from twig with me
we had a pretty good time until one of the acts in the show, an illusionist started his magic act
jeez you'd have thought the guy was the devil himself
the last thing i want to do is insult anyone's beleiving so i thought i better not say that the whole thing is done with mirrors!
somehow i don't think she would have believed me anyway
put this one in your things NOT to do on dates with true beleivers file!
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oldiesman
Evil spirit powers do exist. Right before we got in the Word, some of my family went to a lady who was a fortune teller. She had a familiar spirit, though we didn't know it then. She was telling us stuff about our family that she had no way of knowing otherwise.
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Biblefan Dave
I firmly believe that devil spirits do exist and that people do get possessed. I also firmly believe that many in TWI were overly quick to judge and condemn and accuse their fellow TWI members of being possessed just because certain actions or words did not correspond to what that particular member viewed as correct words or deeds.
So, if one didn't want to be accused to being possessed, one tolled that the straight and narrow path. Don't contradict any TWI teachings or offer any insight not blessed by the research staff of the BOT.
David
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Ham
I think "they" would not recognize a real spurt if it came up and bit them in the rear end. So many years crying "wolf"- so much time looking for spirits in the most unlikely and unlogical places. Spirits everywhere- behind every tree, behind every idol, behind every misunderstood motivation. Underneath every rock.
After a while, even if they had the slightest itch they were convinced that there MUST be at least one there.
Perhaps they were there- I think we were just looking at the wrong end of the organization.
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diazbro
Prior to my Way days I checked out a lot of the spiritual/meditation groups - Krishna, Silva Mind Control, TM, ESP, sceances, reincarnation studies , and even a group of satanists (who were without a doubt the most boring group of people I have ever met). I had this real desire to find evidence of spiritual existence but in all this effort I found nothing - zilch - nada - rien ! There were people with lots of stories on how they had seen this or seen that or how someone read another's mind but when it came time to reproduce any of this it never happened. During a sceance this woman put her hand on my leg (Said she was afraid). Now that caused the spirits to rise ! Of course I had to see her home safely... *ahem*
Anyway. After I landed with TWI I got a hold of that book "The Challenging Counterfeit" by Rafael Gasson (spelling might be wrong) which was required reading for would be advanced class students. Interesting book. There was a guy who couldn't walk a city block without some type of in-your-face, over-the-top spirtual phenomena going on yet here I was , enthusiastically pursuing evidence of such but came up dry. Someone in TWI later told me that "God must have been protecting you".
Of course this runs counter to TWI mentality where if you even have the wrong album in your house it could mean eventual devil possession. I mean to a Way person if you even think of "spirits" then you are well on your way to being possessed.
Well I'm not suggesting that there aren't spirits out there just that it seems to be the more common case that they *don't* communicate with us as much as some people would have you believe. I think mediums in general are just opportunists looking to benefit from those in grief or those looking for answers. And people are so desperate that they will believe most anything from these people.
they had some psychic show on TV a few years back I think and it was a total joke. It turns out that they had active microphones scatterred throughout the studio audience
so the "medium" could over hear conversations which he would later use to convince people that he had some special knowledge.
In the end I must say that I've had a few eyeopening experiences that I can can't explain and they were of a very positive nature. I'm not ready to shut the book on paranormal experiences though I rarely give it any thought because there are plenty of things to deal with in the here and now.
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outandabout
I think the people accusing other people of being possessed weren't so clean themselves.
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Kevlar2000
Because that would involve their followers developing and using, as you mentioned, logic, scientific research and critical thinking skills; the result of which could have been viewpoints divergent from the Way's teaching (doctrine and dogma).
Also, I'm not so sure Wierwille, Martindale, Rivenbark et al would have been interested in having their "adherents" adept at spotting con-men and -women.
For reasons which, at least to me, are obvious.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
hell as a tc in maine i was told my piano was possed
the lc told me this
his name was dana armstorng i think
i got rid of the piano
dumb move on my part but i believed him
i think it only needed tuning
he is the guy who was instramental in causing my wife and i to divorce they knew it all!!
my foot they did
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Out There
I do believe in spooks, I do I do , I do believe in spooks AAUUgh.
--- Cowardly Lion from The Wizard of Oz
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Mister P-Mosh
It's obvious to me. The Way International was a scam itself. If they were using similar techniques to the scam artists that trick people into believing in the paranormal, what would prevent Joe Believer from using the same sort of knowledge against TWI, which was a scam as well? That's also why they were tricky about their biblical research and knowledge, and instead went from actual research to something more watered down and non-specific. If they just read verses from the bible telling you "Do the Word, be strong in the Lord" and other things like that, but never told you what "the Word" is or how to "be strong in the Lord" then you can never realize that they are a con. They gave us enough information to make us think that they were teaching us the Bible, but they never did go into specific doctrine that we could hold them accountable for. The result is that most TWI people are confused and think that they are missing something in their personal studies, or if they form an opinion based on scripture that TWI later contradicts, they are taught that they are the ones who are wrong and they need to "renew their minds" to TWI.
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George Aar
Well, I'm perfectly willing to believe in any sort of paranormal stuff, if I'd ever see any evidence of any. So far, zip.
Until then, I'm a firm believer in the laws of physics.
BTW, I second the notion that the Amazing Randi is an excellent source of rational explanations for all those fantastic events going on around us (actually the careful reader will realize that I've been touting Randi for quite some time now).
If you'd like to perform paranormal feats all on your own, take a look at this site:
http://www.ianrowland.com/
Mr. Rowland is an accomplished "cold reader", and not only does it, but teaches others how to tap into these resources from the "other side". You'll have to buy his book to get the whole story, but basically you learn to ask a whole bunch of questions.
The human experience is not that exceptional from person to person, and basic issues crop up over and over and over again. All one need do to be an accomplished seer, is ask questions like "Has someone recently passed on in your family?" "Did they like to eat?" "Did they have a beloved pet?" or you can ask seemingly more specific questions like "I getting a 'j', does that make any sense?" "I get a sense 'water' was nearby?"
If you get a "no" or an unenthusiastic response, move on quickly and keep firing questions. Keep them vague and general, and keep reading your mark's reactions very closely.
It's amazing how little you have to give to desparate people to earn their enthusiastic support. Mention that Uncle John had a favorite pet dog, and that he liked to eat Bar-be-que, and they'll walk away convinced that they contacted the "other side".
It's a sideshow. An act. A contrived parlor trick. As is all of the paranormal stuff I've ever seen in the media. And,... as was TWI and the related "Jesus" movement of the '70s.
Or so this unrepentant infidel would have you believe...
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Ham
George, I remember seeing some kind of program- may have been National Geographic or something- the witchdoctors would drink something like latex and later heave it up, proving that they could remove "curses" other witchdoctors put on them.
And the people bought it.
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Ham
As I sat and watched this thing, I thought- "yep, I've seen that before"..
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Ham
"Choose your weapons"
"projectile vomiting, at fifty paces"
Heh heh- sorry..
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