do you believe the "life after twi" is best met by the truth and spirit group? Is it available to not have fellowship with those who still have the "baby" and still hold truth and be able to take the word over the world?
What the heck does that mean take the word over the world exactly?
Is not everyone a living epistle? Is just those that belong to your group that are trained and love you of course that are able to meet this goal ?
I just want to express thanks for what your 3 books you wrote during twi did for me during the most difficult year of my life. I will be checking out the websites.
Nice to hear from you. I would love to stay and chat, but I am going on vacation this coming Monday and need to get all my work done before I go. You probably know the drill. Maybe if I can get my laptop debugged I will weigh in here next week from beautiful Maui, Hawaii. Until then Aloha.
The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have (1) a package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries.
This is literal hogwash. Why is that that the ministry you received was greater by comparison than those around you? Why must you hyperventalate in such fashion to valid it? To me Mr. Lynn its the same ole Me Big , you Little arguement that TWI used to have and I am wondering why you still do this?
Thank you, John, for coming to The Spot to say hi and all. I too, was really blessed with the obvious heart and love expressed in, "Will The Real You Please Stand Up" and Will The Real You Please Remain Standing".
I still have much fear and trepidation, and I know that it's keeping me from having a real fellowship with God and with His Son, Jesus Christ. I hardly know how to pray anymore, and sometimes, I'm overwhelmed with sadness, feeling like I'm stuck in a dark and desolate place. But, I honestly don't know who I could trust to fellowship with. I honestly don't think I could survive another round of physical, emotional, and spiritual devastation of the sort I suffered through in TWI.
One thing you said that really peaked my interest was the part about having TRUE fellowship with Jesus Christ. More and more, I realize that that's something I never did have in TWI. And that's a crying-out-loud-shame, because I REALLY want that.
I will be taking you up on your offer to visit your web site and read extensively. But it will take virtually audible revelation directly from God or The Lord Jesus Christ himself, to make me pursue ANY organized Christian organization, claiming to "speak for God". (In case I haven't indicated already, I have deep trust issues"... -->
Anyway, welcome John. Please don't be a stranger. Ignore the posts of anyone whose only objective is to wound and demoralize. I do. I really do love my brothers and sisters in Christ. That's why nobody in the world can hurt me to the extent they can. I'll do anything to avoid that kind of hurt again.
unless it is all for the deep and abiding love he feels for us who he does not know and will pick and chose to answer only those who will identify themself.
Nice commercial, John. At least you're honest about what you will and won't do.
I understand that you don't have the time nor the inclination to read, let alone answer, a bunch of posts; but I don't have the desire, nor the inclination to get on the phone with you or any other ex-Way "leader" to listen to your spiel, because what I want is not your spin on how to get closer to God, or Jesus, or Joe Namath, nor do I seek an apology, since I can't think of any way in which you directly hurt me. (Other than a real boring afternoon sitting across from you in your Latham office watching you work --> and your pitiful attempts to mock the New York accent ;)-->)
What I would like to know, not just from you, but from every ex-Way "leader" who left for "godly" or so-called biblical reasons, is: How did you miss this stuff when you where in? Why did the doctrinal errors slip under your radar while VP was still alive, but become oh-so-clear when Okie-boy was in charge? How long did you shovel the .... at us before you got out?
Did you do your job in TWI knowing things were wrong?
Oh well...you don't have time...congrats on your full life, chief.
(btw...the name's Tom Joyce...since you like to know who you're dealin with :D-->)
Hi, John. Didn’t want to pass up the opportunity to say thanks for being you. It has been four years since I met you at a meeting in Houston. That night you helped me remember that God is, and always has been, a God of grace, mercy and forgiveness. You helped me remember that our brother, Jesus Christ, truly has paid the price. It was, and is, a wonderful feeling, returning to my first love. God bless you tenderly.
sky4it has a point, although I wouldn't have stated it quite so harshly. What did we learn from PFAL that hadn't been taught for centuries?
The Word of God is the Will of God -- hmm, basic fundamentalist doctrine.
The Law of Believing -- ruined many lives, and almost wrecked mine
How the Bible Interprets Itself -- a basic course in how to read ANY book
Four Crucified -- Bullinger
For This Purpose Was I Spared -- your group throws that one out
How to be Born Again -- see any born-again church
Renew the Mind -- ditto
Speaking in Tongues -- Oral Roberts had that one packaged as neatly as Wierwille.
T.I.P. -- Your group completely revamps much of what was taught in the Intermediate Class.
JC Not God -- oopsie, you guys don't teach that, either -- correction (thanks, Raf), you DO teach JC is Not God, making this probably the most important doctrine you brought with you from TWI
(Now, as far as being a one-stop, package deal, I would also like to mention that B.G.Leonard had his class first and taught it to Wierwille, who re-labelled that package PFAL.)
So if we throw out the parts of PFAL that you do not adhere to, there is not much left that can't be found in any evangelical church with a charismatic renewal element, the type of church that was coming of age at the same time TWI gained its biggest following. And the ministries of Oral Roberts and B.G.Leonard, et al, certainly surfaced before Wierwille, as well as Bullinger, who published in the late 1800's.
There are a couple of other things in your post here that bug me a bit, but perhaps I am just nit-picking. You can respond here, or email me at shazdancer@danceart.net (this email is on my profile). We know each other from your NY days in TWI, and I doubt it would take much prodding to jog your memory.
Some questions are more comfortable to dodge or duck,
but I'm sure you can see this would make it look like you
were here primarily to RECRUIT rather than help. I'm giving
you the benefit of the doubt on it, but if you act as if
that's why you're here, I reserve the right to change my
mind.
My primary question was already answered.
(Jeff posted that letter entirely on his own.)
I do have what I feel is a critically-important question and
would appreciate an answer here eventually.
After reading you say this...
quote:
But the evils of TWI must be separated from the awesome truth of God's Word that was taught, and which saved the lives of countless people. Those who have not made that distinction have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, to their own spiritual detriment.
Tens of thousands of people had positive experiences with TWI and learned the Word like they could not have anywhere else. The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have (1) a package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries, and (2) a rapidly growing number of people committed to spreading it around the world, so he used the character flaws of many leaders (including me), combined with significant doctrinal error (which led to practical error), to tear apart what really did have the potential to take the Word over the world.
I'm very curious what your opinion is on other Christians
who never took PFAL, heard of TWI, VPW, etc.
Were they deprived of something fundamentally unique and
amazing by missing PFAL? Were they secondary in skill as
a result of never taking the classes, going Corps, etc.?
Are Christians who never take PFAL or equivalent classes
second-class Christians by comparison?
Also, someone we've heard has put forth that VPW was some
sort of "overgifted" Christian, "born with an overabundance
of brains and brawn", and "when he walked, the earth
shook." (No, not Jeff.) What's your position on VPW?
Do you think his account of the snowstorm and God speaking
audibly was truthful? Did God really teach him His Word
like it hasn't been known since the 1st century?
Do you believe that the ex-twi'ers and their students since
then have a fundamental advantage over all other
Christians?
I'm aware that you can consider these the questions of one
person. Please keep in mind, however, that MANY people here
would appreciate honest answers, without evasion, on those
questions. I can respectfully disagree, if necessary, if
I'm told outright. I can't be respectful if the only
response is noninformative or a dodge. In other words,
One of the main issues I have with the conduct of TWI is the handling of the corporate assets. VPW made it clear that unless we were on the BOT we were mere followers and had absolutely no say in the use of the time and money we contributed.
With the present TWI management sitting on an alleged 40+ million dollars, much of it probably socked away during our watch, the error of that policy should be very clear. Of course if you happen to be on the BOT, it probably doesn't seem like an error but "good stewardship" (rolls his eyes).
What do you think of this policy and it's end result. How does your organization handle this issue?
I don't know why but your post reminds me of a P.J. O'Rourke quote made at a long past Democratic Convention - "I was moved by his speech, and it wasn't just because I was drunk".
In any case, I think that some thoughtful questions are good, even if JAL doesn't feel like addressing them. At least his followers will read them and think about them.
satori001 -- Hey, hang on, and type a little slower. Let me get my fiddle, and play for this "sob story". -->
I think I can add all the dissonant notes needed, to truely make your "sour script" a little more so.
Hearing your assessment of CES (as an organization), and JAL (as he currently is as a person), is just about as "valid of an observation" that might be made by the KKK, about the NAACP.
In other words -- a non-factor.
There is life after twi, and imho, CES is not trying to emulate them, but is trying to be a Ministry that offers bible to those who wish for it.
Not everyone is in the boat you are in. And I get the impression that you are saying that if one is not in your boat, the particular one they are in is doomed to sink.
Well -- go ahead and say so, and while you are at it -- be sincere. But remember --
"SINCERITY IS NO GUARANTEE OF TRUTH"
Everything I have read by you here on this thread, and on others about CES, and JAL, have said little else, other than attacks. And by the way, you never did answer my question -- if you have actually listened to any of the stuff they have put out, or if you have visited their websites?
CES is not in the business of "selling" anything, except for the Word of God. I have never been asked for money from them, with the exception of their mentioning their "partnership program", which I did join, on a voluntary basis.
The "partnership program", and "supplications for money" are not now, nor have they ever been the main thrust of their "outreach". The main thrust has always been the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
If you don't like that, well -- too bad. They are not there for money, they are there for souls.
And the price for the souls has already been paid.
We've never met, but I have read your book, "Living In The Eye Of The Storm" while I was still in TWI.
I'm one of the ones you mentioned that had a relatively good experience with TWI, at least until a Limb Leader told my wife how she and I were somehow unequally yolked because she refused to take PFAL or leave the RC church.
Since then, I've been studying the bible on my own as I have the time, using the things I was taught both in and out of TWI.
Three years ago, I bought a copy of the CES book, "One God & One Lord". I'm only about 1/2 the way through it as I have been studying and researching it since I received it. So far, I've found nothing wrong with it.
BTW ShazDancer, that book teaches that Jesus is NOT god, but it goes faaaaar deeper into REAL research, both biblical and historical, than VPW's "Jesus Christ Is Not God" ever did.
As far as my dealings with CES, I've never been pressured, heckled, maligned, or forced to do anything. For about a year after I bought the book, I did receive "The Sower" and "The Contender" for free, and was never asked for contributions in any way (save, of course for reading the links on the CES web site regarding that). I have never been told that I should, or have to, join CES either.
Still, I'm very weary about joining any other organization that is similar to TWI. You guys at the CES seem to be genuine on the surface but, then again, so was TWI - until one got to know them better. It's going to take a whole lot more convincing for me to change that thought.
God Bless you Mr. Lynn, and thanks for your honest sharing.
Well, I am glad to see John has posted here. You must give him credit for that. Very few other former "top hot dogs" have done that. I'm sure he knew there would be some hostility.
I got to know him a bit on my interim year in Brooklyn and on Emporia staff. At this point in my life, I cut all Christians some slack - including ex-twis. They believe that what they are doing is of God and some of them, like John, are working their butts off to spread the Gospel of the good news as they know it.
I just really don't care anymore who belongs to what group, who has the "truth," who wants to argue with who. As Christ said, the truth is within us. If it takes JAL, CG, Tammy Baker, sitting on a desert mesa, etc. as a stepping stone to what you need to learn for your life at that time, more power to you.
Do I agree with most things taught now by ex-TWI groups - no way. But, I do give John props for dropping in and sharing what he has been doing with his life. He feels he is called to do this - more power to him.
I know when I left TWI and went to a couple of his meetings, several of the things he taught (including the tithe) were very freeing for me. I will always appreciate that.
I also saw much of his heart at Emporia for a couple of years. He may have made mistakes, and got caught up in VPs various wrong "innner circle" doctrines, but he is one of the few men I know who have since tried their best to make amends, apologize to people he has hurt and refute the erroneous doctrine of VP. I must give him credit for that. I have not seen anyone else do that. Do I agree with what he teaches now or the ties he still has to VP? No - not at all. But, I believe he has changed in many ways, like most of us have.
quote:But the evils of TWI must be separated from the awesome truth of God's Word that was taught, and which saved the lives of countless people. ...
Excellent statement that I concur with, I've been agreeing and voicing this viewpoint on Waydale and Greasespot for years.
He also said:
quote:Tens of thousands of people had positive experiences with TWI and learned the Word like they could not have anywhere else. The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have (1) a package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries, and (2) a rapidly growing number of people committed to spreading it around the world, so he used the character flaws of many leaders (including me), combined with significant doctrinal error (which led to practical error), to tear apart what really did have the potential to take the Word over the world.
Excellent statement that I agree with!
He also said:
quote: ... Those who have not made that distinction have thrown out the baby with the bathwater, to their own spiritual detriment.
I guess I've mellowed out some, I no longer agree with this -- I used to, but now I feel that disassociation with the truths taught in TWI and CES doesn't automatically mean spiritual detriment.
I have read a few things at TruthOrPerdition.com, and only recently. Like John, though unlike John's, my life is full, and I don't have time to wade through a lot of re-hashed Wierwillian double-speak. Let me say this. The material I did read, which had to do with "Why we should trust the bible," and a few brief essays on "logic," was none too impressive.
I will grant that, like Wierwille, they don't think too highly of their target audience, which in part compels them to dumb-down their doctrine to a near "Dick & Jane" level, but their thinking (not just style) was also at that level. It's really poor stuff all around, dmiller. Childish reasoning, circular arguments - in a word, garbage. We got used to it with Wierwille's condescending crap, so it feels familiar to us but I expected more, especially from a Christian crowd so hip they've heard of "post-modernism."
So what's the problem if people are willing to believe these McNuggets of "awesome truth?" Won't they still get "blessed?" Doesn't "believing = receiving?" Try "believing = deceiving."
I'll try to give you some examples, but I shouldn't need to. Read "Can I Trust the Bible?" You'll have to have to figure out how to skip from one McNugget to the next, since continuity was not high on their priorities list. But, if you still can, try to put yourself in the shoes of someone looking for an answer, not just some shallow re-affirmation of what they already hold true. It falls apart like a cheap cake blasted by a fire hose.
But here's the real rub. It isn't even good enough for the faithful, if "education" is the goal. It really isn't. It's purposely dumb, not because they think you're dumb, but because they are TRAINING you to be dumb. What?? No!! Yes! Think about it. (Please?) Just as TWI did. Remember, dmiller, a lot of smart people (me included) accepted Wierwille's presentation, overlooking the many, many flaws, against our better judgment because we were just desparate enough to believe God was at the end of Vic's "rainbow."
That might also explain bright guys like Lynn, Schoenheit, Graeser and Company sticking around TWI, at least for a while. (And then there were the considerable psycho-social-sexual ego-perks of "leadership" in a cult.)
But the dumbing/numbing process was more insidious than any of us realized. Our own rational (or at least, "common sense") standards for "truth" were eroding, replaced by Wierwille's sole authority. And remember, Wierwille launched a full-scale attack on "thinking." "Private interpretation" became the catch-all for any "dangerous" attempt to apply "those wonderful keys" on your own, and especially if you risked contradicting his "research."
And look at the three (plus) CES Mouseketeers to this day, still wearing their Wayworld ears. They yet accept many fundamentally flawed premises, based on Papa Wierwille's authority ALONE. They've long forgotten the day they sold out, not to God, but to Vic. So have many of us.
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excathedra
hi john
at least you have more balls than chris geer
;)-->
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mj412
John
do you read this site often?
do you believe the "life after twi" is best met by the truth and spirit group? Is it available to not have fellowship with those who still have the "baby" and still hold truth and be able to take the word over the world?
What the heck does that mean take the word over the world exactly?
Is not everyone a living epistle? Is just those that belong to your group that are trained and love you of course that are able to meet this goal ?
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smurfette
Hi John,
I just want to express thanks for what your 3 books you wrote during twi did for me during the most difficult year of my life. I will be checking out the websites.
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JustThinking
John,
As is traditional, I'll offer you a cup of coffee and a big welcome. It's nice to have you here. Thanks for coming.
JT
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Mark Sanguinetti
Hi John:
Nice to hear from you. I would love to stay and chat, but I am going on vacation this coming Monday and need to get all my work done before I go. You probably know the drill. Maybe if I can get my laptop debugged I will weigh in here next week from beautiful Maui, Hawaii. Until then Aloha.
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sky4it
Mr: Lynn:
Your Comment:
The Enemy saw clearly that VPW/TWI did have (1) a package of biblical truth unlike anything for centuries.
This is literal hogwash. Why is that that the ministry you received was greater by comparison than those around you? Why must you hyperventalate in such fashion to valid it? To me Mr. Lynn its the same ole Me Big , you Little arguement that TWI used to have and I am wondering why you still do this?
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Cherished Child
Thank you, John, for coming to The Spot to say hi and all. I too, was really blessed with the obvious heart and love expressed in, "Will The Real You Please Stand Up" and Will The Real You Please Remain Standing".
I still have much fear and trepidation, and I know that it's keeping me from having a real fellowship with God and with His Son, Jesus Christ. I hardly know how to pray anymore, and sometimes, I'm overwhelmed with sadness, feeling like I'm stuck in a dark and desolate place. But, I honestly don't know who I could trust to fellowship with. I honestly don't think I could survive another round of physical, emotional, and spiritual devastation of the sort I suffered through in TWI.
One thing you said that really peaked my interest was the part about having TRUE fellowship with Jesus Christ. More and more, I realize that that's something I never did have in TWI. And that's a crying-out-loud-shame, because I REALLY want that.
I will be taking you up on your offer to visit your web site and read extensively. But it will take virtually audible revelation directly from God or The Lord Jesus Christ himself, to make me pursue ANY organized Christian organization, claiming to "speak for God". (In case I haven't indicated already, I have deep trust issues"...
-->
Anyway, welcome John. Please don't be a stranger. Ignore the posts of anyone whose only objective is to wound and demoralize. I do. I really do love my brothers and sisters in Christ. That's why nobody in the world can hurt me to the extent they can. I'll do anything to avoid that kind of hurt again.
Bless You.
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CKnapp3
Hi John, Welcome
:)-->
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mj412
sky
this is how he makes a living.
unless it is all for the deep and abiding love he feels for us who he does not know and will pick and chose to answer only those who will identify themself.
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Oakspear
Nice commercial, John. At least you're honest about what you will and won't do.
I understand that you don't have the time nor the inclination to read, let alone answer, a bunch of posts; but I don't have the desire, nor the inclination to get on the phone with you or any other ex-Way "leader" to listen to your spiel, because what I want is not your spin on how to get closer to God, or Jesus, or Joe Namath, nor do I seek an apology, since I can't think of any way in which you directly hurt me. (Other than a real boring afternoon sitting across from you in your Latham office watching you work
--> and your pitiful attempts to mock the New York accent 
;)-->)
What I would like to know, not just from you, but from every ex-Way "leader" who left for "godly" or so-called biblical reasons, is: How did you miss this stuff when you where in? Why did the doctrinal errors slip under your radar while VP was still alive, but become oh-so-clear when Okie-boy was in charge? How long did you shovel the .... at us before you got out?
Did you do your job in TWI knowing things were wrong?
Oh well...you don't have time...congrats on your full life, chief.
(btw...the name's Tom Joyce...since you like to know who you're dealin with
:D-->)
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Shelly
Hi, John. Didn’t want to pass up the opportunity to say thanks for being you. It has been four years since I met you at a meeting in Houston. That night you helped me remember that God is, and always has been, a God of grace, mercy and forgiveness. You helped me remember that our brother, Jesus Christ, truly has paid the price. It was, and is, a wonderful feeling, returning to my first love. God bless you tenderly.
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JustThinking
The man sure does generate a variety of responses.
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shazdancer
Dear John,
Welcome to Greasespot!
sky4it has a point, although I wouldn't have stated it quite so harshly. What did we learn from PFAL that hadn't been taught for centuries?
(Now, as far as being a one-stop, package deal, I would also like to mention that B.G.Leonard had his class first and taught it to Wierwille, who re-labelled that package PFAL.)
So if we throw out the parts of PFAL that you do not adhere to, there is not much left that can't be found in any evangelical church with a charismatic renewal element, the type of church that was coming of age at the same time TWI gained its biggest following. And the ministries of Oral Roberts and B.G.Leonard, et al, certainly surfaced before Wierwille, as well as Bullinger, who published in the late 1800's.
There are a couple of other things in your post here that bug me a bit, but perhaps I am just nit-picking. You can respond here, or email me at shazdancer@danceart.net (this email is on my profile). We know each other from your NY days in TWI, and I doubt it would take much prodding to jog your memory.
Regards,
Shaz
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WordWolf
Hello, John.
We've never met, but I've read your books back
when. I'd also read your letter sometime after
the initial fallout.
Please keep the width of your posts a little
narrower-most of us don't like trying to read a
"stretched screen."
I was glad to see you'd reconsidered certain
things taken as a given at twi, like the
mandatory tithe or losing God's protection,
making God a protection racket. Other matters
I do not necessarily agree.
I understand that in some cases, answering
questions will be better served by pasting an
answer or posting a precise link, so as to keep
from answering the same 5 questions over and
over.
Some people, having weathered bitter crises, I'm
sure, will want to vent a bit and/or ask what
you knew and when you knew it. To some degree,
I'd think some degree of answer, albeit general,
would be in order.
Some questions are more comfortable to dodge or duck,
but I'm sure you can see this would make it look like you
were here primarily to RECRUIT rather than help. I'm giving
you the benefit of the doubt on it, but if you act as if
that's why you're here, I reserve the right to change my
mind.
My primary question was already answered.
(Jeff posted that letter entirely on his own.)
I do have what I feel is a critically-important question and
would appreciate an answer here eventually.
After reading you say this...
I'm very curious what your opinion is on other Christians
who never took PFAL, heard of TWI, VPW, etc.
Were they deprived of something fundamentally unique and
amazing by missing PFAL? Were they secondary in skill as
a result of never taking the classes, going Corps, etc.?
Are Christians who never take PFAL or equivalent classes
second-class Christians by comparison?
Also, someone we've heard has put forth that VPW was some
sort of "overgifted" Christian, "born with an overabundance
of brains and brawn", and "when he walked, the earth
shook." (No, not Jeff.) What's your position on VPW?
Do you think his account of the snowstorm and God speaking
audibly was truthful? Did God really teach him His Word
like it hasn't been known since the 1st century?
Do you believe that the ex-twi'ers and their students since
then have a fundamental advantage over all other
Christians?
I'm aware that you can consider these the questions of one
person. Please keep in mind, however, that MANY people here
would appreciate honest answers, without evasion, on those
questions. I can respectfully disagree, if necessary, if
I'm told outright. I can't be respectful if the only
response is noninformative or a dodge. In other words,
enquiring minds, including mine, want to know.
Please answer as you have opportunity.
God bless and take care.
WordWolf.
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Raf
Shaz,
Am I misreading you, or did you get that one as wrong as you possibly can?
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Jim
John,
One of the main issues I have with the conduct of TWI is the handling of the corporate assets. VPW made it clear that unless we were on the BOT we were mere followers and had absolutely no say in the use of the time and money we contributed.
With the present TWI management sitting on an alleged 40+ million dollars, much of it probably socked away during our watch, the error of that policy should be very clear. Of course if you happen to be on the BOT, it probably doesn't seem like an error but "good stewardship" (rolls his eyes).
What do you think of this policy and it's end result. How does your organization handle this issue?
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Jim
Satori000,
I don't know why but your post reminds me of a P.J. O'Rourke quote made at a long past Democratic Convention - "I was moved by his speech, and it wasn't just because I was drunk".
In any case, I think that some thoughtful questions are good, even if JAL doesn't feel like addressing them. At least his followers will read them and think about them.
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dmiller
satori001 -- Hey, hang on, and type a little slower. Let me get my fiddle, and play for this "sob story".
-->
I think I can add all the dissonant notes needed, to truely make your "sour script" a little more so.
Hearing your assessment of CES (as an organization), and JAL (as he currently is as a person), is just about as "valid of an observation" that might be made by the KKK, about the NAACP.
In other words -- a non-factor.
There is life after twi, and imho, CES is not trying to emulate them, but is trying to be a Ministry that offers bible to those who wish for it.
Not everyone is in the boat you are in. And I get the impression that you are saying that if one is not in your boat, the particular one they are in is doomed to sink.
Well -- go ahead and say so, and while you are at it -- be sincere. But remember --
"SINCERITY IS NO GUARANTEE OF TRUTH"
Everything I have read by you here on this thread, and on others about CES, and JAL, have said little else, other than attacks. And by the way, you never did answer my question -- if you have actually listened to any of the stuff they have put out, or if you have visited their websites?
CES is not in the business of "selling" anything, except for the Word of God. I have never been asked for money from them, with the exception of their mentioning their "partnership program", which I did join, on a voluntary basis.
The "partnership program", and "supplications for money" are not now, nor have they ever been the main thrust of their "outreach". The main thrust has always been the spreading of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
If you don't like that, well -- too bad. They are not there for money, they are there for souls.
And the price for the souls has already been paid.
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Steve Swenton
Mr. Lynn,
We've never met, but I have read your book, "Living In The Eye Of The Storm" while I was still in TWI.
I'm one of the ones you mentioned that had a relatively good experience with TWI, at least until a Limb Leader told my wife how she and I were somehow unequally yolked because she refused to take PFAL or leave the RC church.
Since then, I've been studying the bible on my own as I have the time, using the things I was taught both in and out of TWI.
Three years ago, I bought a copy of the CES book, "One God & One Lord". I'm only about 1/2 the way through it as I have been studying and researching it since I received it. So far, I've found nothing wrong with it.
BTW ShazDancer, that book teaches that Jesus is NOT god, but it goes faaaaar deeper into REAL research, both biblical and historical, than VPW's "Jesus Christ Is Not God" ever did.
As far as my dealings with CES, I've never been pressured, heckled, maligned, or forced to do anything. For about a year after I bought the book, I did receive "The Sower" and "The Contender" for free, and was never asked for contributions in any way (save, of course for reading the links on the CES web site regarding that). I have never been told that I should, or have to, join CES either.
Still, I'm very weary about joining any other organization that is similar to TWI. You guys at the CES seem to be genuine on the surface but, then again, so was TWI - until one got to know them better. It's going to take a whole lot more convincing for me to change that thought.
God Bless you Mr. Lynn, and thanks for your honest sharing.
Steve.
¥
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shazdancer
Thanks, Raf and Steve, I fixed the post. I had been told by someone long ago that CES went back to believing in the Trinity. My post was wrong. Sorry.
Regards,
Shaz
Serves me right for not reading the Doctrinal Forum....
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Sunesis
Well, I am glad to see John has posted here. You must give him credit for that. Very few other former "top hot dogs" have done that. I'm sure he knew there would be some hostility.
I got to know him a bit on my interim year in Brooklyn and on Emporia staff. At this point in my life, I cut all Christians some slack - including ex-twis. They believe that what they are doing is of God and some of them, like John, are working their butts off to spread the Gospel of the good news as they know it.
I just really don't care anymore who belongs to what group, who has the "truth," who wants to argue with who. As Christ said, the truth is within us. If it takes JAL, CG, Tammy Baker, sitting on a desert mesa, etc. as a stepping stone to what you need to learn for your life at that time, more power to you.
Do I agree with most things taught now by ex-TWI groups - no way. But, I do give John props for dropping in and sharing what he has been doing with his life. He feels he is called to do this - more power to him.
I know when I left TWI and went to a couple of his meetings, several of the things he taught (including the tithe) were very freeing for me. I will always appreciate that.
I also saw much of his heart at Emporia for a couple of years. He may have made mistakes, and got caught up in VPs various wrong "innner circle" doctrines, but he is one of the few men I know who have since tried their best to make amends, apologize to people he has hurt and refute the erroneous doctrine of VP. I must give him credit for that. I have not seen anyone else do that. Do I agree with what he teaches now or the ties he still has to VP? No - not at all. But, I believe he has changed in many ways, like most of us have.
Thanks for stopping by John.
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oldiesman
John Lynn said:
Excellent statement that I concur with, I've been agreeing and voicing this viewpoint on Waydale and Greasespot for years.
He also said:
Excellent statement that I agree with!
He also said:
I guess I've mellowed out some, I no longer agree with this -- I used to, but now I feel that disassociation with the truths taught in TWI and CES doesn't automatically mean spiritual detriment.
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def59
Hi John
Shame you can't be real with us.
Then or now.
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satori001
dmiller,
I have read a few things at TruthOrPerdition.com, and only recently. Like John, though unlike John's, my life is full, and I don't have time to wade through a lot of re-hashed Wierwillian double-speak. Let me say this. The material I did read, which had to do with "Why we should trust the bible," and a few brief essays on "logic," was none too impressive.
I will grant that, like Wierwille, they don't think too highly of their target audience, which in part compels them to dumb-down their doctrine to a near "Dick & Jane" level, but their thinking (not just style) was also at that level. It's really poor stuff all around, dmiller. Childish reasoning, circular arguments - in a word, garbage. We got used to it with Wierwille's condescending crap, so it feels familiar to us but I expected more, especially from a Christian crowd so hip they've heard of "post-modernism."
So what's the problem if people are willing to believe these McNuggets of "awesome truth?" Won't they still get "blessed?" Doesn't "believing = receiving?" Try "believing = deceiving."
I'll try to give you some examples, but I shouldn't need to. Read "Can I Trust the Bible?" You'll have to have to figure out how to skip from one McNugget to the next, since continuity was not high on their priorities list. But, if you still can, try to put yourself in the shoes of someone looking for an answer, not just some shallow re-affirmation of what they already hold true. It falls apart like a cheap cake blasted by a fire hose.
But here's the real rub. It isn't even good enough for the faithful, if "education" is the goal. It really isn't. It's purposely dumb, not because they think you're dumb, but because they are TRAINING you to be dumb. What?? No!! Yes! Think about it. (Please?) Just as TWI did. Remember, dmiller, a lot of smart people (me included) accepted Wierwille's presentation, overlooking the many, many flaws, against our better judgment because we were just desparate enough to believe God was at the end of Vic's "rainbow."
That might also explain bright guys like Lynn, Schoenheit, Graeser and Company sticking around TWI, at least for a while. (And then there were the considerable psycho-social-sexual ego-perks of "leadership" in a cult.)
But the dumbing/numbing process was more insidious than any of us realized. Our own rational (or at least, "common sense") standards for "truth" were eroding, replaced by Wierwille's sole authority. And remember, Wierwille launched a full-scale attack on "thinking." "Private interpretation" became the catch-all for any "dangerous" attempt to apply "those wonderful keys" on your own, and especially if you risked contradicting his "research."
And look at the three (plus) CES Mouseketeers to this day, still wearing their Wayworld ears. They yet accept many fundamentally flawed premises, based on Papa Wierwille's authority ALONE. They've long forgotten the day they sold out, not to God, but to Vic. So have many of us.
Regards...
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