quote: I'm not aware of you ever denying what Wierwille did. Minimizing it, yes. Downplaying it, yes. Misrepresenting it, yes. Mischaracterizing it, yes. Excusing it to your idolatrous ends, yes.
Just what did VPW do? That's the all important question everybody wants answered, isn't it? Despite his human frailties and weaknesses, VPW did his best to help people with the Word of God he knew. That is what he did. What I fail to see is how Mike is minimizing, downplaying, misrepresenting and mischaracterizing that aspect of VPW's life, and he's got the tape and written records to prove it, or so he says. Well big deal, I say. All that that has ever done is spawned some of the longest threads here in the history of GS Cafe.
The only people excusing their idolatrous ends are the antagonists. Since VPW can't live up to some "god-like image of Jesus Christ" it is that fact which justifies their all important, self-righteous (and spiritually erroneous) criticism of him. Just the possibility that they may have to share a spot in heaven someday with the likes of VPW - man oh man, that alone must completely terrify them to no end! But what of the scriptures which say, "Therefore let no man glory in men" and also the scripture: "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgement; yea, I judge not mine own self." Well you should just forget those scriptures, huh? After all, they want you to believe it is MY job to bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make known all these evil's in the heart of VPW. But this is not what my bible says. My bible says this is the Lords job, not any of yours!
"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." 1 Corinthians 4:5 That's all I'm going to say about this subject - which is the Word of God itself. Bye.
I agree and will say again that the value (and/or lack thereof) of what he taught stands independently of his character.
I missed your previous comment - but taking that statement alone -I must cordially disagree, with "not always".
Certain of what Wierwille taught was quite self-serving, and quite deliberated by the directive of his character, and can hardly be considered "independent" of it. Like his "pro-choice" position on "abortion" (as it appeared in an old Way mag), for which of course there was especial allowance given that "every women in the kingdom belonged to the king" and his pathetic jokers.
But what of the scriptures which say, "Therefore let no man glory in men" and also the scripture: "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgement; yea, I judge not mine own self." Well you should just forget those scriptures, huh?
Did Paul forget his own "scriptures" as well?
He devotes an awful lot of space to griping about his opponents throughout letters ascribed to him (i.e., Galatians, 2 Corinthians).
Mike...you said..."Since it is revelation from God..." I think I see the problem here. You just made a huge jump in logic, with nothing to back that up. It's impossible to prove or disprove whether or not wierwille put together pfal by revelation! You simply have decided to believe this. I'm afraid that I do not share this belief with you. If I were to list every person who claims that God has spoken to them...I'm afraid that my keyboard would wear out first.
Mike...I hate to tell you this, but Veepee lied to us about the "God talking to him thingy"...the snow on the gas pumps, the story about the racetrack...all of it. He just made it up. If God talked to wierwille, how come he picked lcm to replace himself? :D--> I understand now, why you are so adament about defending pfal...to you, it's the same as the bible. "The book of wierwille"...why don't we just take the pfal books and staple them in the bible right after the Pauline epistles...let's give Veepee his due. Does that sound about right Mike? Of course, you've elevated the class even higher than wierwille himself did...and that IS amazing.
I can't help but feel that someday in the future, you will be trying to forget how you were conned for so many years. The longer that you cling to this broken cistern, the more broken and bitter you will eventually become. To climb that high into the clouds of man worship, only assures that your plummet downward will end in a crushing realization of despair. I trust that when that time comes for you...and it will...that we here at the GS will be here to help you begin your recovery.
quote: I'm not aware of you ever denying what Wierwille did. Minimizing it, yes. Downplaying it, yes. Misrepresenting it, yes. Mischaracterizing it, yes. Excusing it to your idolatrous ends, yes.
Just what did VPW do? That's the all important question everybody wants answered, isn't it? Despite his human frailties and weaknesses, VPW did his best to help people with the Word of God he knew.
[Actually, a strong case has been made that he did NOT do that. In order to make things look original, vpw made some changes here and there, accidentally diluting the product. This was an acceptable result for him, since he was more concerned about presenting it as HIS best and GOD's best at the same time, and NOT with making sure the people got GOD's best in truth no matter WHO wrote the books. So, I say he did NOT do his best, certainly not of what it can be proved he KNEW. ]
That is what he did.
[ That is what you say he did. ]
What I fail to see is how Mike is minimizing, downplaying, misrepresenting and mischaracterizing that aspect of VPW's life, and he's got the tape and written records to prove it, or so he says.
[ Well, your failure to see something is no guarantee of its nonexistence. Ever seen Death Valley? Antarctica? The Dark Side of the Moon? Not with your own eyes you haven't. ]
Well big deal, I say. All that that has ever done is spawned some of the longest threads here in the history of GS Cafe.
The only people excusing their idolatrous ends are the antagonists.
[ Your entitled to your opinion, even if it is contrary to the facts presented here. ]
Since VPW can't live up to some "god-like image of Jesus Christ" it is that fact which justifies their all important, self-righteous (and spiritually erroneous) criticism of him.
[ No, it is vpw's failure to refrain from drugging and raping members of the congregation, squandering money for the ministry on luxuries for himself, and lying and misrepresentation (among other things) that we object to. We expect a human who masters his lusts as a CHRISTIAN leader, not one who makes occasion for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof. Most other ministries and churches get to have those-why shouldn't we have gotten one? ]
Just the possibility that they may have to share a spot in heaven someday with the likes of VPW - man oh man, that alone must completely terrify them to no end! But what of the scriptures which say, "Therefore let no man glory in men" and also the scripture: "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgement; yea, I judge not mine own self." Well you should just forget those scriptures, huh? After all, they want you to believe it is _MY_ job to bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make known all these evil's in the heart of VPW. But this is not what my bible says. My bible says this is the Lords job, not any of yours!
"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." 1 Corinthians 4:5 That's all I'm going to say about this subject - which is the Word of God itself. Bye.
[ Of course, taking your twisting of those verses out of their context, and following them to their logical conclusions, we should release all murderers and rapists from prison, since it was unjust to "judge" them. In fact, the criteria given in Timothy-and TAUGHT BY WIERWILLE HIMSELF AS CRITERIA FOR JUDGING MINISTERS- would be null and void. Hear that? That's the sound of "your whole Bible falling to pieces", since you said part of it doesn't work.... BTW, Joel Steinberg's out of prison now, the guy who beat that child to death? Interested in offering him a job, or have you decided to "judge" him? He's having trouble finding work and a place to stay....]
quote:Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to the law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Sheesh, can we put this "don't judge anybody" thing to rest yet? We cannot judge the ultimate fate of a man, that's God's job, but we can certainly judge right from wrong. I also note that it is the ones that have the most judgmental and insulting attitude (WTH and Mike) who are the ones to say "don't judge Wierwille."
I also wanted to speak to Mike's assertion that Wierwille probably apologized to God a hundred times for his evil actions, and God forgave him a hundred times and somehow snuck His Word to him between rapes, drunks, and verbal abuses. Do you see how ridiculous it becomes to believe such a thing? How dumb do we think God is, that we can just say "sorry" and not mean it?
"Forgive 70 times 7," sure. (A figure of speech meaning "forgive every time.") But there should be true repentance by the perpetrator every time. So just by common sense (see, I got it back after leaving TWI), it must be talking about 70 times 7 DIFFERENT sins, not the SAME sin 490 times. Sheesh, being defrauded the same way more than once a week for 7 YEARS, I would think you were a glutton for punishment!
We are requiring our man of God to at least be as human as most unbelievers, who don't sexually molest, get drunk, and verbally abuse. They don't even think about it.
quote:Since VPW can't live up to some "god-like image of Jesus Christ" it is that fact which justifies their all important, self-righteous (and spiritually erroneous) criticism of him.
No, WTH, the STANDARD of a Christian leader in the Body of Christ is set forth in Timothy, not invented by the posters on this board. The husband of one wife implies without stating that he would bed only his own wife, not various and sundry members of his flock. It is also stated very plainly in Ezekiel that there are wicked shepherds who devour the flock and God does not look kindly on them or approve of them.
quote:We are requiring our man of God to at least be as human as most unbelievers, who don't sexually molest, get drunk, and verbally abuse. They don't even think about it.
We are requiring our man of God to at least be as human as most unbelievers, who don't sexually molest, get drunk, and verbally abuse. They don't even think about it.
We are requiring our man of God to at least be as human as most unbelievers, who don't sexually molest, get drunk, and verbally abuse. They don't even think about it.
We are requiring our man of God to at least be as human as most unbelievers, who don't sexually molest, get drunk, and verbally abuse. They don't even think about it.
It's amusing to me that people who would not accept these qualities in a candidate for dog catcher excuse them in a person who claims to speak for Jesus Christ.
i'm not too far from age 50 and this 18 year old kid next door is looking so hot right now. ohmygod.... i'm going to witness to him and get him in the class. after that.... well i'm just believing big to undershepherd him.... he's got a lot of family problems so that's a real good sign
Let's leave aside for a moment the theory that God gave Wierwille PFAL by revelation, since it has been thoroughly debunked (unless God gave him revelation for errors as well).
Wierwille was a guy who had decided that plagarism was okay. He was stealing and he was lying about it. Not once, not twice, but consistantly. This is the guy that you want to teach you the bible? You're not going to question the veracity of EVERYTHING that he taught? Are you insane?
Wierwille was a guy who rationalized that the scripture gave him the right to have sex with any of the women in "his kingdom". Not only that but he was a serial adulterer who taught his ideas about sex to others. This is the guy who you want to accept as your teacher? You're not going to question his explanations of the application of the Word of God that he talked about? Are you on crack?
As a previous poster mentioned, even the stuff that he plagarized from, he often diluted, or mixed with other sources as to change or confuse the meaning. Compare something from Bullinger to Wierwille's version of it and see how he often misunderstood the point. What a scholar! This is the guy who you're going to allow to set the framework for truth for you? Have you been eating lead paint?
Figure it out for yourself...you don't need Wierwille
Oakspear...Of course your logic is sound but as far as I can tell, Mike (mogjr) doesn't respond to logic or common sense. In fact, he even ignore his own bible when it comes to selecting the Christian leader that he is to follow.
The criteria for Christian leadership is clear and wierwille fails to qualify. In fact, in terms of his behavior,wierwille failed to qualify as even an "average Christian", according to the bible's standards. He was a lying, plagurizing, drunken womanizer. His arrogance was the opposite of being humble and meek. The evil perpetrated by lcm was wierwille's doing and his legacy. The condition that twi is in today can be traced back to wierwille's wrong doctrines and his wrong behavior. Mike is living in a pretend world where he feels safe and secure...really too bad.
i'm not too far from age 50 and this 18 year old kid next door is looking so hot right now. ohmygod.... i'm going to witness to him and get him in the class. after that.... well i'm just believing big to undershepherd him.... he's got a lot of family problems so that's a real good sign
WTH you said "... The VPW I came to know would have been horribly appalled to realize his PFAL bible students were wasting all their time and energy doing nothing but frittering away their precious lives discussing him nearly 20 years after he died on some silly chat board on the Internet. He would have seen all these idiotic threads and discussions about him and his credentials (his doctorate) and whether or not his actions lived up to his words as nothing but pure B.S. And that's putting it mildly. I can't use the words I'ld like to use without this chat board xxxx'ing them out!"
Well, well WTH. I hope he would be horribly appalled that his KEEDS found out about his Doctorate and all the other things. I spent TWInty years from '75- '95 believing that he was a DR!!! Did I waste my time and precious life his False Degree for 20 years? And that 9 years after my departure from TWI my questioning his, uhmm, "credentials" would be pure BS on some silly chat board on the Internet?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
whoa whoa let me catch my breath the next string of xxxx'ing
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHHH. B U RRRRR PUH
Thanks WTH.
And oh, by the way WTH ~~~~ The AHHH at the end up there was just a mild one ounce portion of dried tiny Tepin pepper pods.
I'm still on a break; just taking a break from my break, so to speak.
Since this thread is here the way it developed, I just thought I’d put something out there for discussion.
The subject of sex is not the one I want to focus all my energies on, and it sure can be an energy waster. Because of that I sometimes feel a need to steer clear of too much discussion of it, especially when it’s being discussed in a heated fashion the way it usually is here. I’m not too keen of making too many comments on what I’m about to bring up, but I do have some thoughts I’d like to contribute after my break and after others have posted theirs.
Here’s the sub-topic: WHY is extramarital sex bad?
Put in another way, why did God forbid various forms of extramarital sex in the Old Testament Law?
It’s very practical in life to obey God first and then ask any questions later, but I find most people never get around to asking “why?” to these kinds of questions.
Thinking through why God finds murder wrong and forbids it is an excellent mental exercise. No one (hardly) will argue that murder is ok, but how many have thought through WHY it is wrong and WHY God forbids it? I’m not interested in the distraction of the difference between murder and killing, such as killing in a war or capital punishment, but plain old murder-murder: why is it wrong. Thinking this through (and, of course arriving at a conclusion that it IS wrong) is an excellent way to think about extramarital sex being wrong and why.
While we’re at it, why are bestiality, pederasty, and homosexuality wrong?
I am not advocating that anyone find these things ok, just that we think through the WHYs and the WHEREFOREs to what exactly makes them wrong. As to adultery, I think the John Scheonheit Paper’s appendixes hit on a few of the why’s without making a big deal out of them.
Instead of filling ourselves with a lot of emotion and outrage over these issues, we who have been given so much of God’s Word ought to graduate to a higher level of understanding. God made known His acts and his written commandments to the 5-senses bound children of Israel, but His WAYs were made know to Moses who pretty much alone had the spirit. We ought to rise up with the Word we know to see the whys and wherefores of things like this if we are to be healed of some of the pains that bog us down and distract us from God’s light.
So, have at it. Maybe someone would like to start a Doctrinal forum thread on this (not me), but I put it here because this topic came up a lot, and I thought Oakspear wouldn’t mind it if this thread popped back up higher on the charts.
quote:... This is the guy who you're going to allow to set the framework for truth for you? Have you been eating lead paint?
Figure it out for yourself...you don't need Wierwille ...
I think you're making a bigger issue than what exists. What happens if some folks already have figured out for themselves that some of Wierwille's teachings are biblically accurate, or at least biblically reasonable? For those folks, Wierwille taught the truth, in those areas. No need to start from scratch then, because of Wierwilles sins. In fact, it would be a sin to throw out truth, because of someone else's sin.
Oh lessee well ..ASIDE from the obvious fact that GALATIONS lists it as an action that only a man of the flesh endulges in....(geeze I feel like I am having to lecture my teenager) .... extra marital sex puts yourself at risk for std`s, some of them incurable...others will result in death....
Unfortunatly, as is commonly the case...the spouse who was not out putting themselves at risk....is assuming the SAME risks (unbeknownst to themselves) as the mate that indulges themselves with prolific sexual partners... and stands a darn good chance of infection with a life threatening disease before the cheating spouse is discovered.
My friends cheating spouse infected her with a std...and though she has since divorced him for his betrayal... she will have to suffer the effects and indignity of the symptoms ...reminding her of his faithleness for the rest of her life....
So I`d say that if galations isn`t a good enough reason for you.....that the risk of disease and death for you .... your partner, possibly resulting in the orphaning any children you two may already have together would make a pretty good argument for monogomous relationships.
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What The Hay
Just what did VPW do? That's the all important question everybody wants answered, isn't it? Despite his human frailties and weaknesses, VPW did his best to help people with the Word of God he knew. That is what he did. What I fail to see is how Mike is minimizing, downplaying, misrepresenting and mischaracterizing that aspect of VPW's life, and he's got the tape and written records to prove it, or so he says. Well big deal, I say. All that that has ever done is spawned some of the longest threads here in the history of GS Cafe.
The only people excusing their idolatrous ends are the antagonists. Since VPW can't live up to some "god-like image of Jesus Christ" it is that fact which justifies their all important, self-righteous (and spiritually erroneous) criticism of him. Just the possibility that they may have to share a spot in heaven someday with the likes of VPW - man oh man, that alone must completely terrify them to no end! But what of the scriptures which say, "Therefore let no man glory in men" and also the scripture: "But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgement; yea, I judge not mine own self." Well you should just forget those scriptures, huh? After all, they want you to believe it is MY job to bring to light the hidden things of darkness and make known all these evil's in the heart of VPW. But this is not what my bible says. My bible says this is the Lords job, not any of yours!
"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God." 1 Corinthians 4:5 That's all I'm going to say about this subject - which is the Word of God itself. Bye.
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TheInvisibleDan
I missed your previous comment - but taking that statement alone -I must cordially disagree, with "not always".
Certain of what Wierwille taught was quite self-serving, and quite deliberated by the directive of his character, and can hardly be considered "independent" of it. Like his "pro-choice" position on "abortion" (as it appeared in an old Way mag), for which of course there was especial allowance given that "every women in the kingdom belonged to the king" and his pathetic jokers.
Danny
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TheInvisibleDan
Did Paul forget his own "scriptures" as well?
He devotes an awful lot of space to griping about his opponents throughout letters ascribed to him (i.e., Galatians, 2 Corinthians).
And against other "Christians", other "apostles".
Danny
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GrouchoMarxJr
Mike...you said..."Since it is revelation from God..." I think I see the problem here. You just made a huge jump in logic, with nothing to back that up. It's impossible to prove or disprove whether or not wierwille put together pfal by revelation! You simply have decided to believe this. I'm afraid that I do not share this belief with you. If I were to list every person who claims that God has spoken to them...I'm afraid that my keyboard would wear out first.
Mike...I hate to tell you this, but Veepee lied to us about the "God talking to him thingy"...the snow on the gas pumps, the story about the racetrack...all of it. He just made it up. If God talked to wierwille, how come he picked lcm to replace himself?
:D--> I understand now, why you are so adament about defending pfal...to you, it's the same as the bible. "The book of wierwille"...why don't we just take the pfal books and staple them in the bible right after the Pauline epistles...let's give Veepee his due. Does that sound about right Mike? Of course, you've elevated the class even higher than wierwille himself did...and that IS amazing.
I can't help but feel that someday in the future, you will be trying to forget how you were conned for so many years. The longer that you cling to this broken cistern, the more broken and bitter you will eventually become. To climb that high into the clouds of man worship, only assures that your plummet downward will end in a crushing realization of despair. I trust that when that time comes for you...and it will...that we here at the GS will be here to help you begin your recovery.
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WordWolf
UH,
you missed something.
If Mike thought that the Pauline Epistles were of equal authority
as the Orange Book, that would work.
Mike thinks the Orange Book is of superior authority to the Pauline
Epistles. Mike claims the original Epistles have somehow lost some
ineffable quality-despite 2000 years of documentation.
He also refuses to believe in 2000 years of documentation,
but DOES believe vpw's claim of the snow on the pumps.
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WordWolf
[WordWolf in boldface again.]
[ Of course, taking your twisting of those verses out of their context, and following them to their logical conclusions, we should release all murderers and rapists from prison, since it was unjust to "judge" them. In fact, the criteria given in Timothy-and TAUGHT BY WIERWILLE HIMSELF AS CRITERIA FOR JUDGING MINISTERS- would be null and void. Hear that? That's the sound of "your whole Bible falling to pieces", since you said part of it doesn't work.... BTW, Joel Steinberg's out of prison now, the guy who beat that child to death? Interested in offering him a job, or have you decided to "judge" him? He's having trouble finding work and a place to stay....]
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shazdancer
I Cor. 6:1-3
Sheesh, can we put this "don't judge anybody" thing to rest yet? We cannot judge the ultimate fate of a man, that's God's job, but we can certainly judge right from wrong. I also note that it is the ones that have the most judgmental and insulting attitude (WTH and Mike) who are the ones to say "don't judge Wierwille."I also wanted to speak to Mike's assertion that Wierwille probably apologized to God a hundred times for his evil actions, and God forgave him a hundred times and somehow snuck His Word to him between rapes, drunks, and verbal abuses. Do you see how ridiculous it becomes to believe such a thing? How dumb do we think God is, that we can just say "sorry" and not mean it?
"Forgive 70 times 7," sure. (A figure of speech meaning "forgive every time.") But there should be true repentance by the perpetrator every time. So just by common sense (see, I got it back after leaving TWI), it must be talking about 70 times 7 DIFFERENT sins, not the SAME sin 490 times. Sheesh, being defrauded the same way more than once a week for 7 YEARS, I would think you were a glutton for punishment!
We are requiring our man of God to at least be as human as most unbelievers, who don't sexually molest, get drunk, and verbally abuse. They don't even think about it.
Regards,
Shaz
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rascal
We *require* our man of God to simply be a *man of the spirit* as he is described in galations.
Galations condemns wierwilles actions....tells us that he was not a man of the spirit...he flat out misrepresented himself.
I have no respect for someone who stole so much from young folks those whom he promised to help to know God just a little bit better.
Thing is, in his betrayal, he has made many of us doubtfull and mistrusting of God as well.
Great legacy for a minister.
lol...bible falling apart....
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waterbuffalo
WTH said:
No, WTH, the STANDARD of a Christian leader in the Body of Christ is set forth in Timothy, not invented by the posters on this board. The husband of one wife implies without stating that he would bed only his own wife, not various and sundry members of his flock. It is also stated very plainly in Ezekiel that there are wicked shepherds who devour the flock and God does not look kindly on them or approve of them.
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Raf
Now THIS, I think, bears repeating...
It's amusing to me that people who would not accept these qualities in a candidate for dog catcher excuse them in a person who claims to speak for Jesus Christ.
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excathedra
i'm not too far from age 50 and this 18 year old kid next door is looking so hot right now. ohmygod.... i'm going to witness to him and get him in the class. after that.... well i'm just believing big to undershepherd him.... he's got a lot of family problems so that's a real good sign
thank you god
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Oakspear
Let's leave aside for a moment the theory that God gave Wierwille PFAL by revelation, since it has been thoroughly debunked (unless God gave him revelation for errors as well).
Wierwille was a guy who had decided that plagarism was okay. He was stealing and he was lying about it. Not once, not twice, but consistantly. This is the guy that you want to teach you the bible? You're not going to question the veracity of EVERYTHING that he taught? Are you insane?
Wierwille was a guy who rationalized that the scripture gave him the right to have sex with any of the women in "his kingdom". Not only that but he was a serial adulterer who taught his ideas about sex to others. This is the guy who you want to accept as your teacher? You're not going to question his explanations of the application of the Word of God that he talked about? Are you on crack?
As a previous poster mentioned, even the stuff that he plagarized from, he often diluted, or mixed with other sources as to change or confuse the meaning. Compare something from Bullinger to Wierwille's version of it and see how he often misunderstood the point. What a scholar! This is the guy who you're going to allow to set the framework for truth for you? Have you been eating lead paint?
Figure it out for yourself...you don't need Wierwille
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alfakat
WTH---after your input, your new "secret" fraternity name shall be...WhataJoke, cuz that's what I think of your "reproof"...
"Despite what others may have said about him, I know what the man stood for and what he gave his life for."
Rightttttt!!!!!!!!!!! nobody but nobody knew him like YOU did..... Guess you were there at HQ before I was, huh????????
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JustThinking
Exie,
Bad girl! ;-)
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GrouchoMarxJr
Oakspear...Of course your logic is sound but as far as I can tell, Mike (mogjr) doesn't respond to logic or common sense. In fact, he even ignore his own bible when it comes to selecting the Christian leader that he is to follow.
The criteria for Christian leadership is clear and wierwille fails to qualify. In fact, in terms of his behavior,wierwille failed to qualify as even an "average Christian", according to the bible's standards. He was a lying, plagurizing, drunken womanizer. His arrogance was the opposite of being humble and meek. The evil perpetrated by lcm was wierwille's doing and his legacy. The condition that twi is in today can be traced back to wierwille's wrong doctrines and his wrong behavior. Mike is living in a pretend world where he feels safe and secure...really too bad.
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houseisarockin
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
WTH you said "... The VPW I came to know would have been horribly appalled to realize his PFAL bible students were wasting all their time and energy doing nothing but frittering away their precious lives discussing him nearly 20 years after he died on some silly chat board on the Internet. He would have seen all these idiotic threads and discussions about him and his credentials (his doctorate) and whether or not his actions lived up to his words as nothing but pure B.S. And that's putting it mildly. I can't use the words I'ld like to use without this chat board xxxx'ing them out!"
Well, well WTH. I hope he would be horribly appalled that his KEEDS found out about his Doctorate and all the other things. I spent TWInty years from '75- '95 believing that he was a DR!!! Did I waste my time and precious life his False Degree for 20 years? And that 9 years after my departure from TWI my questioning his, uhmm, "credentials" would be pure BS on some silly chat board on the Internet?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
whoa whoa let me catch my breath the next string of xxxx'ing
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHHH. B U RRRRR PUH
Thanks WTH.
And oh, by the way WTH ~~~~ The AHHH at the end up there was just a mild one ounce portion of dried tiny Tepin pepper pods.
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Mike
Hello GreaseSpotters,
I'm still on a break; just taking a break from my break, so to speak.
Since this thread is here the way it developed, I just thought I’d put something out there for discussion.
The subject of sex is not the one I want to focus all my energies on, and it sure can be an energy waster. Because of that I sometimes feel a need to steer clear of too much discussion of it, especially when it’s being discussed in a heated fashion the way it usually is here. I’m not too keen of making too many comments on what I’m about to bring up, but I do have some thoughts I’d like to contribute after my break and after others have posted theirs.
Here’s the sub-topic: WHY is extramarital sex bad?
Put in another way, why did God forbid various forms of extramarital sex in the Old Testament Law?
It’s very practical in life to obey God first and then ask any questions later, but I find most people never get around to asking “why?” to these kinds of questions.
Thinking through why God finds murder wrong and forbids it is an excellent mental exercise. No one (hardly) will argue that murder is ok, but how many have thought through WHY it is wrong and WHY God forbids it? I’m not interested in the distraction of the difference between murder and killing, such as killing in a war or capital punishment, but plain old murder-murder: why is it wrong. Thinking this through (and, of course arriving at a conclusion that it IS wrong) is an excellent way to think about extramarital sex being wrong and why.
While we’re at it, why are bestiality, pederasty, and homosexuality wrong?
I am not advocating that anyone find these things ok, just that we think through the WHYs and the WHEREFOREs to what exactly makes them wrong. As to adultery, I think the John Scheonheit Paper’s appendixes hit on a few of the why’s without making a big deal out of them.
Instead of filling ourselves with a lot of emotion and outrage over these issues, we who have been given so much of God’s Word ought to graduate to a higher level of understanding. God made known His acts and his written commandments to the 5-senses bound children of Israel, but His WAYs were made know to Moses who pretty much alone had the spirit. We ought to rise up with the Word we know to see the whys and wherefores of things like this if we are to be healed of some of the pains that bog us down and distract us from God’s light.
So, have at it. Maybe someone would like to start a Doctrinal forum thread on this (not me), but I put it here because this topic came up a lot, and I thought Oakspear wouldn’t mind it if this thread popped back up higher on the charts.
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oldiesman
Oakspear:
I think you're making a bigger issue than what exists. What happens if some folks already have figured out for themselves that some of Wierwille's teachings are biblically accurate, or at least biblically reasonable? For those folks, Wierwille taught the truth, in those areas. No need to start from scratch then, because of Wierwilles sins. In fact, it would be a sin to throw out truth, because of someone else's sin.Link to comment
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oldiesman
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Georgio Jessio
oops wrong post.
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rascal
Oh lessee well ..ASIDE from the obvious fact that GALATIONS lists it as an action that only a man of the flesh endulges in....(geeze I feel like I am having to lecture my teenager) .... extra marital sex puts yourself at risk for std`s, some of them incurable...others will result in death....
Unfortunatly, as is commonly the case...the spouse who was not out putting themselves at risk....is assuming the SAME risks (unbeknownst to themselves) as the mate that indulges themselves with prolific sexual partners... and stands a darn good chance of infection with a life threatening disease before the cheating spouse is discovered.
My friends cheating spouse infected her with a std...and though she has since divorced him for his betrayal... she will have to suffer the effects and indignity of the symptoms ...reminding her of his faithleness for the rest of her life....
So I`d say that if galations isn`t a good enough reason for you.....that the risk of disease and death for you .... your partner, possibly resulting in the orphaning any children you two may already have together would make a pretty good argument for monogomous relationships.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
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Steve!
rascal - you've allowed smikeol to successfully derail this thread. If smikeol wants a new thread on sex, he should start one.
smikeol does his absolute best to take attention away from his idol (and I don't use that word loosely) docvic (praise be his name).
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rascal
awww darn Steve, you`d think that I`d learn that by now..sorry.
I thought it aplicable...if he can get us to thinking adulterous behavior is no big deal...then he can reinstate vp to his man of the spirit status.
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