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Rocky, we know there can't be intellectual honesty when there's an agenda to protect. The biblical agenda was that VPW got that special revelation, remember? I call it the Snow Story. God told VP that He would teach VP the Word like it hadn't been known since the first century if he would teach it to others. And the rest of the agenda, in my opinion, has to do with upholding the belief that the original text had no contradictions. Right. And how would you know you have recovered the orignal text if there is no original text in existence to compare your findings to? Anyway, right, Chockull, what could go wrong? It was wrong from the beginning, in my view, since VPW stole most of his work from others, etc., and had an ego that wouldn't stand others usurping his power. What a mess he created. And the mess continued. In Undertow, I cite a letter VPW wrote to the Way Corps about a mess he created when members of the 8th Corps challenged his "biblical research," especially his gross ignorance and lack of understanding about what the Aramaic version (actually Syriac, but that's another story) was all about. He kicked them out of The Way Corps training in Emporia and they never returned.

In Craig’s day he would throw tantrums about a lot of research topics. He hated GMIR in the way mag and they mostly did away with any research there - he wanted to forge his own way in Bible interpretation. Which took the form of things like the Galatians tapes teachings. Which was mostly crying about his treatment during the fog years mixed in with seeing devil spirits around everywhere especially with any critics. He I think does not have an extremely high IQ and so he ran off anyone he perceived as smarter than him in research circles. He published the Acts book which he did most of the research on. I think Wayne Clapp was his trusted research associate for most of his endeavors. Wayne has a masters degree so is more formally educated or was. Then Rosalie basically disbanded the research department because there is nothing new to discover in scripture seeing as we already have the truth given to us like it hasn’t been known since the first century And the current brain trust is doubling down on PFAL except having modern relevant teachers teach it. So basically we have a worldwide ministry whose research roots are ripping off JE Stiles, Bullinger, and the Canadian ministers class complete with characters, repackaging it, and telling an origin story that is every bit as sketchy as Joseph Smiths is in the Mormon religion. And scholars who appear more Machiavellian than scholarly. What could go wrong?

INteresting!! Have a few Q's here - I remember him telling us that he had travelled various places and talked with various scholars; I think I used to have a few names in my brain but memory fails now. Anyone else remember this? AGREE re: his lack of interest in ACTUALLY deeply investigating and teaching various theological positions. E.g. Dispensationalism. Honest Biblical scholarship would have required him, when teaching a class on understanding the Bible, to have taught that there were OTHER POSITIONS, such as Covenant theology. But NO, there is only ONE WAY to interpret the Bible, MY WAY. Am sure others have posted, but I am just now seeing again more clearly, that his was a Sleight of Hand Trick to say that NO PRIVATE INTERPRETATION = the Bible interprets itself = MY INFALLIBLE INTERPRETATION. Anyone know where/how he he came up with this??? Wonder if BG Leonard leaned in this direction?? Thanks to anyone replying!!

In my experience, I met plenty of "older adults" in TWI 1970 - 1987. What I realized after escaping and reflecting on who they were, it became clear to me that none of them were equipped to challenge VPW on his teachings because they, like most of us younger ones, readily accepted the basic assumptions that VP based his biblical beliefs on: the inerrancy of scripture, the cannon of the KJV, and that Christianity was the only avenue to reach "God." And VP was good at deflecting questions. No serious scholars that I know of took PFAL. There were a few ministers, but they didn't stick around long.

Thank you Rocky!!

You could, apparently, no longer take Victor's word for it what it all, or any of it, meant. That expression take his word for it jumped out and SCREAMED at me when I read your comment. Isn't that why Victor NEEDED young people to join his movement, rather than older, more seasoned researchers with whom he would have been challenged on his numerous claims of what God actually meant? I was 19 when I first learned of Victor's ministry and his take on "truth." I THOUGHT (at the time) what I responded to was an intellectually honest take on God, scripture and such. But really, reflecting back on my developmental place and emotional/social needs at that moment, I responded to something altogether different, a friendship at a US military base overseas where and when I had few people I felt I had much in common with. But I digress, for Victor to effectively communicate with and proselytize more intellectually and emotionally mature people would have required him to be willing to listen and relate to people differently than those who eventually came to follow his ministry. But didn't he try reaching people with that kind of maturity for years with minimal success? Wouldn't his success have required different communication skills? More open minded listening perhaps? More of an open mind to what other people, closer to being peers with him, had to say? People who would listen to him but pose difficult questions. Didn't he actually HAVE people like that come into his orbit... but for reasons unknown he didn't engender the kind of emotional connection he was able to get with the "young people?" Did Victor have a temperament conducive to actual dialogue that could produce an understanding in two or more individuals which could reasonably be expected to include portions of each person's position. Could that be [part of] the reason he built a cult, instead of a community without demands on its followers?

Reality! Ha! The most expensive item on the menu, yet still the best value.

Hi Alex Feel free to search the many subjects about The Way International that have been posted at GSC over the past 20 plus years. I am sure you will find answers to a number of your concerns, and if not, please begin your own posts. Others here can probably fill in the blanks for you. WELCOME!

Well put!!! Rocky too!!. Am having anOTHER round of processing... I got involved in twi b/c of what was going on for me personally (some mental breakdown), and in the surrounding world/culture in the early 70's. E.g. All of my "spiritually-minded" siblings and cousins in New England turned to Eastern mysticism; we were SEARCHING. I had become a Jesus follower, but saw emptiness and hypocrisy in fundamental churches, and my hippie-ness was not welcomed. Been reading about Auroville in India- a Hindu (sort of) utopian community started in the 60s that drew ppl from around the globe, but turned out to promote similar types of magical thinking, leader-worship, conflict, extremism, etc. I was/many of us really thought we could CHANGE THE WORLD, eh? That idealistic youthful energy and belief. vpw took advantage of that... I very well could have joined an Eastern religous c ommunity instead of twi like my relatives, had it not been for God answering y prayers and leading me to saving faith in Jesus at age 16... Best to ALL here!

Great news. I would expect this type of thing with you being published with your story and so active at the different events focused on cult recovery. I think John Juedes has also experienced quite a lot of this with people coming to him with personal stories. I rejoice with you at the positive results of your work and the genuine help you are providing others.

Who am I, who are we, who are..We. Too many pronouns tonight.. I'd like a nice evening of *us* around a camp fire..

No problem Annio. Grieving such a loss over what you missed out on in your relationship with Christ because of twi will be according to your own personal timetable. Check back in if and when you want - the best thing I learned from being on GSC was that I'm not alone and neither are you.

One of the reasons to call these men out is to put faces with those who set the traps. Add Rosalie and Donna to the list. None of them held any credentials that qualified them to hold this authority over others. All five of them were raised up within twi's ranks and were incrementally given this "authority" by faithful obedience. Nothing more. They learned the racket of gaining power over others and lusted after it. Each of them were given undeserved adulation, undeserved loyalty, undeserved authority, and undeserved access to such levels of power over others. Only by setting emotional and psychological trappings of guilt and fear were they able to maintain what wierwille started. And, even though thousands of corps have deserted this stranglehold, these "trappers of men" show no remorse or repentance for what they've done. There is nothing wholesome or redeemable about their deeds. They should be counted among the low-lifes, con artists and ponzi scheme advocates who use the abs-monies of existing customers to peddle their influence by claiming higher returns on investment (rewards in heavens, crowns). In their underhanded hypocrisy, Jesus called out the Pharisees and mocked this deception by stating, "....they as such have their reward." In other words.... God sees this injustice and there will be no eternal rewards forthcoming for them. What's even more unconscionable is offshoot groups propagating from the stem cells of the mother plant [cult]. Each new sprouting drawing strength thru wierwille's name..... not Craig, Don, Howard, Rosalie or Donna. Like carnival attractions, there is always someone willing to part with their money for cheap entertainment and attention. Seemingly, these offshoot leaders have done the mental gymnastics too of rationalizing away virtues of morality and common decency. Peddlers in the marketplace of trade, these "sellers of deception" know full-well the body language of a gullible mark. There is no avenue of redress to gain by confronting deceitful cult leaders on their home turf. They hold all the advantages and support from sycophants nearby. All of them ready to mock and label your valid confrontation with aggressive lies and an echo chamber of support. The only path of escape is to pack your bags and get the hell away from them. Twi and splinters have the same recipes but label their soups differently. Maybe one adds a few more onions and garlic powder.... but realistically, it's the same soup. Lastly, it pays rich dividends to know the names of the trappers and the trappings they use. For over twenty years, GSC has been offering the first, clear vision that twi-followers are caught in a trap. No other group offers this direct approach. Nor does any other group have the cojones to back up that claim. They simply offer their own version of a wash-rinse-spin cycle trap. GSC's door is open 24/7 and stays open. You are free to come and go as if you were shopping in a free society. Welcome.

First off, Biblically speaking, Christ has never been absent...that doctrine does not come close to occuring anywhere in the Bible. Yet the way international teaches the word of God takes the place of the absent Christ. Damnable heresy all the way here. It would be worded better if they just told the truth: The way ministry takes the place of the real Jesus Christ. That holds true across the board for people in the way international. The directors act as the head of the body. The way ministry is considered by the way ministry "the functioning body of Christ"...the way corps stand in the gap....the only gap I have ever known about was the one that was put between God and his people by the sin nature. The real Jesus Christ stands in that gap as the way, the truth, and the life. Jesus Christ died for our sins...not the way international. I could keep going....does anyone have any idea whatsoever where this awful doctrine originated? I have never heard it outside the way ministry. Was this VPW's brainchild? To me this is a very anti-Christ doctrine. Nowhere is Christ ever called absent and nowhere is he replaced by anything. He has all the preeminance. Period. Jesus Christ is the chief corner stone and no other foundation can no man lay. I

The absent Christ doctrine is another of wierwille’s switcheroos…think about it – wierwille declared “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ”. Now any PFAL grad worth their salt knows “The Word” really means “the rightly-divided Word as taught by wierwille”. Thus for all practical purposes “The Word”…PFAL… “the rightly-divided Word as taught by wierwille” replaces the supremacy of Christ. Essentially this switcheroo enabled a sneaky pseudo-Christian cult-leader like wierwille to lord it over us! wierwille used, abused, violated, subverted, and perverted cult-followers – and he did all that in the name of Christ! In my opinion that’s a high-octane mind-fvck because if you question, challenge or reject wierwille’s twisted interpretation of the Bible – according to TWI-groupthink you are really questioning, challenging or rejecting Christ – since wierwille’s “The Word takes the place of the absent Christ”…To which I can confidently say now ( after being out of the cult’s clutches for some 36 years ) bull$hit! Let me spring a color-coded synchronicity “commentary” on you… the colors are just my opinion…the synchronicity aspect has to do with me being a former cult-follower and finding certain passages significantly relevant to my experiences in TWI…others my not see the connection…it’s just a walk people . Soooooooooo… bold blue Bible verses below are from BibleGateway website. I marked the phrases in bold red that I think are pertinent to call out some of the deceptive-ideology-swapping perpetrated by pseudo-Christian cult-leaders like wierwille with their pontificating-packed classes of Biblical sounding rubbish, manipulative tactics and exploitative tendencies. I marked the phrases in bold green that I think reflect how God AND Christ are NOT absent in a Christ-centered life…if I was a web-evangelist prone to hype I’d say “my people, we are spiritually loaded for bear !”…but me being the Grease Spotter that I am – let me just say we don’t need any of their stinking classes. …sooooooo keep it simple – remember bold red is bad – detrimental…what harmful and controlling cults do. bold green is good – i.e., beneficial…what God/Christ do. this is the color-coded part of the commentary - believe me I don’t have high hopes to compete with Bullinger…although I have imagined T-Bone’s Companion to Grease Spot Café - - which is actually a strong cup of Irish Coffee…oh - were you assuming it’s a book? Ha gotcha – the old T-Bone switcheroo! anyway here goes…from Colossians 1 & 2: 9 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives, 10 so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11 being strengthened with all power according to his glorious might so that you may have great endurance and patience, 12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. 15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. 24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. 25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— 26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. 29 To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me. Colossians 1: 9-29 NIV I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is. 6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ. 9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self-ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. Colossians 2 NIV

Pygmy Pharisees take the place of the risen Christ?

That is the WORST ERRANT doctrine that TWI ever taught and promoted. I clearly saw that as I was leaving TWI in the late 1980s. I even wrote an article to help educate people as I was leaving in the late 1980s. The article title was and is: "Lordship of Jesus Christ Contrasting the Lordship of Imperfect Man". With editing I even added this chapter as one of the 16 chapters of my recent biblical teaching book. The following is quoted from this chapter. In addition, if I met one of the leaders of TWI now, I would try to correct this false doctrine in a peaceful way. Hopefully, they corrected at least some of this DUMB DEE DUMB DUMB, errant and false doctrine.

If something is absent, it's not here, it's not present. God in Christ in you? How can Christ be in you if Christ is absent? Are you absent? Where is the power if it is absent? And what is the word that takes the place of this absent Christ? The Bible? The KJV Bible? The Llamsa Bible? What a disappointing substitute! This is one of many, many examples of victor defecating in his own hand and then throwing that feces in the face of God.

This one from WordWolf..." Every crackpot idea that connected to sex found a home in twi."

Hi Greasespotters! Dr. Rawlings birthed all 3 of our babies at St. Margaret's Hospital in Hammond, IN. 1979, 1982, and 1984. Our first was the first baby delivered in the pre-runner to what was to become the Birthing Center named after her at St. Margaret's. We never left the labor room for the delivery room. We did it all right there in the bed in the labor room. Doc was there the whole time for each of our births. We were immediately discharged when Lori and babies were rested, and spent a week at Dr. Rawlins' House after each birth. Seymour and Gloria Leven went up to Hammond when they graduated from the family corpse to run a "Medical WOW" twig. There were several corpse grads who worked with her as RNs, Nursing Assistants, a Nurse Midwife, receptionists, secretaries, etc. Mark and Ann Carli (6th corpse grads) were also a part of that medical thang, as Mark was at La Salle Univ in Valparaiso, IN, finishing up his PhD in Clinical Psychology. He was working closely with Seymour in the pre-cursor of what eventually became Couselling Services of OH, in Troy, OH from 1983-1985. They were doing "covert" professional psychiatric and psychological counseling for mostly the wives of "top leadership" in TWIt, many of whom were suffering from Clinical Depression, Bipolar Disorders, and a lot of Anxiety/Panic Attack associated with Major Depressive disorders. I began referring corpse spouses from the Midwest Region first, and then from all over the US Twunk. The support for this whole medical outreach and counseling thing was Don Wierwille, the ONLY genuinely EDUCATED member ever on the TWIt BOT until Rose-a-lie became VP as part of the settlement of the Allen Lawsuit. When they shitcanned da Forehead, Rosie became prez, and Don died of lung cancer in 2001, I think. That's how Rosie became the big Kahuna of TWIt. The "secularization" of TWIt's "spiritual counseling" by "a Jew shrink", approved and supported by Don, and the reliance upon "sense knowledge degrees and certificates" instead of Da woid and da corpse principles dictor taught us(sic!), "contributed greatly" to the "entire US Twunk" being seduced by the dark side, according to Crazy Chris and POP. But, what really happened was that, the epidemic of mental illness and acute depressive disorders widespread amongst the way corpse worldwide, was exposed AND documented. More importantly it was PROTECTED from TWIt interference because it was founded and run by REAL Doctors, and legally protected patient privacy, and privileged information from being communicated back to the BOTs. But, counseling services of OH digresses from the topic here. Doc Rawlins was a beloved "hero" in the Natural Childbirth "movement" as well as one of the most influential folks in the formation and expansion of the La Leche League. When she retired, she received the third of three large jars, each filled with 10,000 beebees representing the just over 30,000 childbirths she had attended in her career! That's a fairly good-sized city! She was well-known Nationally and Internationally for her pioneering work in natural childbirth and breastfeeding, and her birthing center. She was a titan in her field. She was a friend. As to why she was so dedicated to TWIt'n'Vic: Her firstborn child, Craig, was very much like his mother. Extremely bright, personable, and dedicated. His plan was to go to Medical School for OB/GYN and join his Mom in her very busy practice. But, he decided to go WOW first. He was the first in the Rawlins family to take piffle and he was the "star" of the family, as well as the apple of his mother's eye. Everybody loved him. Craig received special permission from dictor to visit his mom while he was on the WOW field. I forget what the occasion was, but on that drive back to Hammond, IN, Craig was killed in a car crash. Carolyn was devastated, as was her entire family, and everyone who had known Craig. Carolyn almost lost it, but dictor brought her to HQ, helped with the memorial and funeral (all at TWIt expense) and hooked her up with Seymour and Gloria who were in-Rez at Rome City. She spent lots of time there at Kneipp Springs, and her closeness to Seymour/Gloria as well as with Dr. Chris and Mary Boulange, who were also in-residence family corpse, was a critical support for her. This was where the Medical Outreach Area in Hammond idea was birthed and staffed. Carolyn was extremely indebted to dictor for all he did for her and her family during the biggest crisis and hurt of her life. And, she loved the Levens as "equals". She so loved Rome City, that when she retired, she bought a cabin on Sylvan Lake in RC, where she fished and ministered to wayfers from all over the world. She loved her cigarettes and her scotch-and-milk, and she was usually humming a tune all day. She loved life. And, since dictor was so integral in helping her accept and survive the traumatic death of her son, and TWIt gave her the perfect place to teach and continue her pioneering work, she was faithful to TWIt until Dotsie was institutionalized by her son Don, in St.Mary's. Regarding her "New Life" class, she was totally qualified, one of the tops in her field, to teach that. She was so very knowledgable and her personable engaging teaching style made her an entertaining lecturer. She, like everyone else in TWIt, was a shiny, valuable, reputable distraction from dic's con. She was worth special attention and patronization because she had $$, great reputation and acknowledgement in her profession, and she loved her Lord Jesus Christ. I am so glad I can tell my kids that a genuine legend attended each of their births. Their very first external touch was from a truly great lady. She will be long-remembered and sorely missed. Thanks for reading.