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i keep reading about how many people were told they would be "greasespots by midnight" if they left twi and i keep thinking about how many times i was told "the word" gave parents and husbands the "right" to kill "disobedient" children and wives and i know that taking my chances of being killed by the "adversary" was less dangerous than staying in twi and being killed because of that insanity. there are many kinds of real death and one is that instant death that everybody is afraid of but another is a slow death that kills the soul first and leaves the body with chronic problems that erode the strength and the life. getting beaten all the time may not have killed me but it caused chronic problems that will kill me so what does it matter when i die if i die because of the beatings? when i die it won't be because i left twi and became a "greasespot" because the "adversary" got me, but because i couldn't get out soon enough and twi insanity got me.

There were only two "successful" African Americans in twi that I can think of: L*nnel J8hnson and Claudette. I think L8nnel was ordained by vic.. don't know about claudette. That's two out of.. how many.. hundreds? Maybe there were a few others.. as far as liberty lobby and spotlight is concerned.. isn't it intriguing that the guy who said NEWSPAPERS were so darn "negative".. stories about murder, accidents, suicide, death.. were so "bad" for believing- which is a straw man to begin with- adopted different kind of "negatives"- stories of government takeover, murder, and intrigue? maybe vic should have put his newspapers and periodicals down for a while, and read the bible..

I was at that meeting also. The pattern that it set, at least in my area, was that whoever was running a meeting could do or say whatever they wanted. Martindale said that whoever was running the meeting (in that case, him) had free reign. I saw "leaders" take this attitude often, especially in "confrontation" meetings. Martindale...he should have been a diplomat :D --> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice...but in practice there is Oakspear <!--graemlin::cool:--> [This message was edited by Oakspear on December 19, 2003 at 18:41.]

There's a significant body of opinion here at the Café to the effect that VPW knew that PFAL / TWI was a scam – out to get money, and that he wasn't a genuine minister but (wording differs) a shyster, charlatan, snake-oil salesman, etc. It was set up as a scam, right from the beginning. It is also widely believed at the Café that he plagiarized the principal books (PFAL and RHST) and also used other people's work which he passed off as his own. It was a scam. People here are happy to say that. And those same people are happy to give Mrs Wierwille, Dotsie, a free pass. She is seen as a victim of VPW's sexual profligacy, and there seems to be no doubt that she was aware of his behavior in that direction. But ... does she deserve the free pass? She was with him right from the beginning. She supported him in his early years. She was a woman who could speak and act for herself: she ran away with him (apparently). She wasn't cowed by his "greatness" then. She was around when he was thrown out of his original church. She participated in his trip to India. She was there when he began to get involved with BG Leonard. She must have seen BG's book in the house; probably read it. And surely the original founding trustees didn't get together without discussing it with their wives? And yes, it was "another time" when she was younger, when VPW got going with his "ministry," and it may have been harder for a woman to leave her husband – but women did leave their husbands and did divorce them. So…does she really deserve the free pass? Didn't her support help the TWI juggernaut get off the ground (before it crushed her too!)? She didn't speak up right in the beginning, when she knew and could nip it in the bud. Doesn't that silence, and her enjoyment of the "benefits" make her also a scammer?

my opinion.............no free pass deserved!.............classic enabler and co-dependent............she knew of all der victoid's shenanigans..........and , for reasons known only to her, she chose, willfully, to suffer the indignities of vic's perversions and relentless megalomania............i saw her cry..............i saw her yell............but i NEVER saw her publicly defy what she knew to be his lies and vicious use of human beings to fulfill his personal lust and demons!...........she shared his bed........she bore his children, (well, at least 5 of them anyway), she kept his secrets, she covered his lies, she tolerated his meaness and cruelty to her own kipp family................she alone knows why...........i surely don't!................peace.

Behind every great man stand a great women. or something

Uh.......for me, Ruth Madoff comes to mind.

Before her kids were old enough to take her in. When they were just little. So it would be hard for a woman to leave her husband, with several small kids; don't know what support if any would have been available. Her own family? But...if she knew he was plagiarizing the work of others, and didn't say anything, that makes her an accomplice. Maybe he did keep her in the dark; he refers to discussing things with Ros Rinker. Hard to think that he didn't discuss with Dotsie. Or did VPW scam Dotsie, too? Any early Corps want to weigh in here?

There is a provision in the law for disobedient children to be taken to the elders and stoned. . . . are there accounts of this ever being carried out? Sadly, I have no problem believing this was taught as justifiable behavior.

I am not sure what was said after I left. . . but, I never heard anyone say that the bible gave parents the right to kill a disobedient spouse or child. That would have penetrated my foggy brain. I have always been disgusted and shook about the practice of female infanticide in rural parts of China and India. . . . even when I was in TWI. I would have taken note of that. Martindale did say something about . . . . if it were old testament times. . . and homosexuals. I can imagine it was not a leap for him to include cop-outs or disobedient "believers". It wouldn't have been worse than swatting a fly to him. . . wasn't there even a song? The "adversary" was always nipping at our heels. . . typical TWI. . . giving the devil control over the power of life and death while totally discounting God's role and purview in creation. Hmm, we had more faith in Satan's ability than God's. That is something to consider if we dare. Maybe that is part of the soul killing you mention. . . . or part of the cause of beatings and cruelty. We had some really obsessive traits in TWI. . . . we did train our eyes on evil.

The post about Oakspears 8 year anniversary got me thinking. Does anyone know of any situations where someone chose TWI over their spouse and are now alone and regretful? I know of someone who let others decide about the one she loved. She chose TWI and let him go. He married someone else and is very happy. She isn't, she regrets it deeply. I think this happened a lot. Any stories of this out there?

Yeah!!!! Glad to hear it! The best revenge is living well. :) (Not sure who said that or something similar) JT

Maybe not, but they made very clear who you were NOT supposed to marry.----Kinda limited the field.

Welcome, Alex, good to have you here. You are another European believer? Jeepers, marry this person or be put on probation? :blink: :wacko: Haven't heard that one before, at least not so blatantly. I do remember LCM yelling one lunchtime and saying "I'm not gonna tell you who to marry!" but then again, at the same time they did engineer situations where one person was eased out of the marriage so that the other spouse would be able (they hoped) to marry someone they thought s/he would be better married to. You know, husband stands up to leadership (especially protecting wife), he gets eased / kicked out, they want to marry her to someone less protective so that she will be prey to those with less Godly intent. I don't know about the salt covenant being unbiblical; most weddings were and are celebrated with a feast (both families eating together) and the food would be salted. Would indicate peace between the families. I can see it would be a burden though in the TWI situation, where if you broke your salt covenant you were spitting in God's face. What a laugh, who caused most of the marriages to break down? I am going now before I get too worked up. Very interesting subject and it would be good to hear from spouses who stayed and (presumably) have since left. Spouseless.

Ham, you agreeing with me? Or with Bolshy? SkyRider: like your ref to Ruth Madoff. So it looks so far like, No free pass. But no doubt others will join in this discussion. Who knows, from way (Way??) back? Thanks, DWBH, we were posting simultaneously. Your opinion carries a lot of weight, for me.

And so the effects of TWI continue to ripple out through the community. Poor woman. You may be able to help her a lot but it may be wise not to go into too much detail, which could be even more distressing.

Exactly!.......when roa was channeled to twi-hq grounds in '78, and every year to follow, the control and wayspeak escaled with each year. By circling the wagons, wierwille drew 'his people' closer to him, closer to his agendas. The WOW program was his sales campaign....and the corps program were his instructed sales force. Remember those slogans and song lyrics, "It's good to be Home Again, been away too long"........like twi's hqtrs was OUR HOME. Yeah, riiiiight. Sure.....and twi was our family, just like Charles Manson's buzz with his followers were "The Family." Same draw.....same pitch.....same with Jim Jones. Then......one finds out about wierwille's sex predation, alcoholism, abuse, plagairism, lies, snow-pump calling, liberty lobby connections, paranoia, butt-smacking on corps girls, sex-mentoring to martindale, etc......and the gripping realization that we were in the clutches of a sociopathic con-man. Could it be any clearer...?????????

Remember, she was also frequently used by LCM as a prop to prove he was the true MOGFODAT. Although, in her defense, she may not have had many options at that point in her life. Unless her kids would take her in. As I was around but only met her a few times, I don't feel qualified to comment too much. JT

So.....wierwille and co. fabricated FLAT-OUT LIES on the Jim Jones' cult driven to mass suicide. So.....wierwille and his cronies KNEW that they were changing the label of the peach jar to govt pickles. So.....wierwille and his cult-agenda BLATANTLY LIED TO ALL ADV CLASS ATTENDEES. And....some relish "the good ole days" when grandpa wierwille ruled...???

well what else are you going to do? I spent 10 or so years in and have been at GS for --well forever--She still has a lot of questions--and what else do I know this well? not too much. I was just glad that she somehow wandered into my place and also just happened to bring up that story---maybe, just maybe I can do something to aid or comfort her--I know that I cant bring back her daughter so whatever she may get from me will be minimal compared to what she has already endured..If I can give something to her I am glad to do it

What interesting things you miss when you're field Corps, and have the privilege of serving by scrubbing the portaloos! Bravo the guy who tossed the armband at the tosser

I actually know of a couple of situations where one spouse left twi, forcing a divorce. But when the second spouse eventually left twi too, the couple ended up back together. (( So there!!)) In my case, I found out (in no uncertain terms) as my marriage was ending, that my spouse had definitely married twi, not me. Over and over again he showed that he would be faithful to their dictates no matter how it cut across our marriage vows. I think his perspective was that since our marriage vows had taken place within the context of our vows to twi, his vow to twi would naturally trump any other. I know he has regrets (for instance, he deeply regrets that I copped out and filed for a divorce instead of holding fast to the Word and sticking it out no matter what he said or did). Unfortunately, that he stayed with twi is not one of them.

The salt covenant was a real big deal for me when I got divorced because I felt, at the time, like I had broken a promise to God.

Oh Hell NO. That is why I left(my husband and I)people trying to tell me who i can and should or should not marry. It shattered the glass "snow globe of mind control" and I am glad of that. That was when I started to see HEY there is something NOT right with The Way International.

After many years of faithful service and abundant sharing, TWI would not marry me to the woman I loved. That was the final straw and I never went to another TWI function or gave them another cent. We're still married and in love 25 years later.

Well we married in '81, VP still very much in charge and I know husband was told by LC(who married us)that if he married me we had better plan on me going into the corps within the next couple of years... . I was considered I guess less than desirable as I was not a corps grad.... This after going WOW and living in two fully functioning way homes...running Children's fellowship in our town not to mention twigs, classes, organizing a Thanksgiving Limb Party. and helping with the household holiday Limb party. I was offended.. but I suppose I really did encourage hubby to make the final move away.I certainly didn't discourage it. So maybe if he had married Corps he would still be in today.. Even at that time things were starting to get overbearing.... to put it mildly. I think at that time the marriage manipulation was really just getting started. although I am certain that at the Corps level it was in full swing already. I doubt I was the only person being told I better plan on going into the Corps if I was marring a Corps person.

I doubt we'll ever know. Don't hold your breath while you wait for our young friend to give us that insight.

That's how I see it, too. Ironic, though, he seemed to have forgotten that only four years prior (1976) he tried and succeeded to sell us on the idea that the gvt. was "out to get" The Way.

Looking back at wierwille's twi of 1974-1978.......it mirrored many aspects of the Peoples Temple movement in the same time frame. And, wasn't it at those 1976/1977 roa in sydney, ohio that opposition/protests/banners were outspoken that twi was a cult? And, further.......for those who attended the Advanced Class '79 what was spoken regarding the Jonestown mass suicide?

We, especially my husband, had a hard time believing this was happening to us. Our HFC was an old friend of hubby's. But as time went on, we saw lots of couple leave, or some divorced with an innie spouse and a M&A ex, huge custody battles. Our last coule of years in I was aware that I was a target. It finally became clear to hubbyafter the HFC got a little too bold, and it was a big factor in our leave taking. After we left we had contact with others who ahd been in our fellowship but left--all couples, all with the same story of division. By the time we left I had a plan to leave my husband--not divorce him, just get out of the area with the kids, and hope he would wise up, but it never came to that. Huh, being so evil and all I hadn't cut all ties to my family and former friends and had a place to go.

Especially the corpse under LCM. Marry non-corpse and you're out. REALLY limits things.... (I was never corpse but can empathize) JT

Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that does not describe my involvement at all.

Damned right Leafy Twig! We thought that we were joining a group that was going to teach us all of lifes anweres and Godliness. We thought that we were committing ourselves to a group that was trying to fight the spiritual battle, strike a blow against the adversary. We thought that the leaders were decent christians with morals and character, because of all of that, we trusted them with our lives :( Everything we thought and believed, we did because we were taught that it was God`s will. They took whatever they wanted from us in the name of God. If that isn`r the definition of a cult I don`t know what is. Garth, I disagree, I don`t know any other fundy christian groups that require sexual servitude, forced abortions, encourage abuse,and neglec, decide who you live with and where and even when and where you work. Bolshevik, maybe but many of us never dreamed of rebelling until told that Satan was at work in our parents, family and friends to keep us from the word, that this world was not our home but satans dominion.

in Belgium, leadership tried to separate many husbands and women. They also tried to make some mariage between some believers would not happen, because the man was not as good believer as the girl. They told X and Y to be married in 3 months or they will be put in probation . . . But No one chose TWI over spouse, even though the use of pressure or influence. Believers in Belgium are rebels a little. I think the salt of convenant in mariage is the biggest burden TWI put on believers. It is unbiblical

Hhmmmm, good point. ... ... kinda like when I voted for Dubya the first time, I was unaware of _his_ true nature as well. ;)

"Nobody joins a cult" Errmm, ... yes we did. (At the risk of sounding like Oldiesman, ... which upon further investigation, I do not) we all joined. We all accepted and believed in Piffle and Co., we all thought that we were on "God's Army" (from a Way kids song), and even with the fear motivation and controlling crap that _was_ hurled in our direction, we all joined, and later left (or were thrown out of) TWI. Sorry guys, I know that I'm singing the same old, same old, but our TWI experience is a lot more like some of these fundamentalist churches/religions (along with their fear motivating/controlling/intimidating tactics relevant to their doctrines) than many of us realize/dare to admit to. I could take a lot of what 'mind control cults' are accused of, and rightfully attribute them to a sizable majority of fundy, and even moderate churches. Hell the core of the Christian Gospel of "Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, ... or be damned for all eternity" (in all of its variations) has many attributes of a 'mind control cult'. It's that nobody realizes that or would have the guts to admit it. P.S., my main difference with Oldies is I don't abide by the "Get over it" song-and-dance, nor do I attribute the blame for what VPW and Co. did to the followers. Nor do I say that "It's your fault" for taking part in TWI, because they did lie to us, intimidated and brow beat us, and treated those who thought for themselves like crap. But (speaking for myself anyway) I did join. ... And I did leave.

I've seen numerous instances in twi where leadership intentionally tries to split marriages, including my own. Usually the if there's a split the wayfer goes and marries another wayfer.

George/waysider......yes, the Peoples Temple movement had strikingly similar aspects to that of The Way International. Some bible verses, a charismatic leader, an authoritarian figure, youth involvement, rebellious roots, communal living, isolationists, us-versus-them, etc. etc.....and the propaganda of their own making is fueling the movement. "Nobody joins a cult".........yet, the dynamics of social, physical, emotional, and psychological interaction leads one, sometimes, on a journey unintended. At a given time and place, some saw warning signs and defected......but the movement was little stifled. Thanks waysider for the links. WOW......even to revisit this stuff again......WOW. :blink:

DISCLAIMER The following is second hand information, conveyed to me, personally, in 1979, by the individual involved. 1979 (during "the wierwille administration") A friend of mine who had recently graduated from a Way leadership training program returned to his hometown to resume his life. He was quite disillusioned with some discrepancies that he had seen and some that had been brought to his attention. Mind you, now, this was 1979, pre internet times, so he obviously knew even less than the average GSC frequenter who has been here awhile. He began to speak out publicly against The Way. Within days, literally, an armed goon squad appeared at his door, hundreds of miles from HQ, and made it very clear to him he could suffer dire consequences if he didn't stop immediately. They did not sugar coat it with "spiritual" talk of the hedge of protection. When he told me, I was flabbergasted. I tried to bounce the information off several people, both "rank and file" and "leadership". I suppose you can imagine the sort of reception and rationalization that ensued. Who is to say what might have happened if that incident had escalated? ****************************** "Wierwille manipulated an "army" to jump at his command. Don't ask questions, don't ask how high to jump.........just jump. Thaaaaaat's riiiiiight." ****************************** Believe it if you want to, or dismiss it completely. Makes no difference to me.

There's a joke in there somewhere... JT

...before the Texas BBQ's we had the Southern Comfort Weenie Roasts.

I run into a certain poster's mother in Wal-Mart every now and then but she doesn't recognize me.... she's still very in, of course. At my work, I became good friends with a nurse in my department and one day disclosed I had been in a religious cult called "The Way Inter..." and she finished my sentence for me! She then tells me that her husband had been in TWI and he had gone WOW and was going in the WC when he left. That was mind blowing, to say the least!

I generally try to avoid running into people in general. I hear the fines are too steep and the possibility of jail is just way too unappealing. Though there are a few ex-wayfers that might make it all worthwhile.... *Note the tongue firmly planted in my cheek*

Wait a minute here, I must be missing something...not an impossibility with me. Where are these bbq's? Is this the Texas or Brit thing? Ya'll are bbq'ing without me? Helloooooo......

Ah yes.. "present (I'm still in da dumb *ministry*) *truth* and all.. I hope you get a favourable "out" soon, friend.. Old Wayfers don't *die*.. they just fade away..

We moved to a city we had never been to while in TWI. We do see way bumper stickers once in a while, but I don't know if they are current or really old. Since we moved here in 2001 we haven't seen any old Wafers we knew, though we have had a few letters and phone calls.

That's scary.

Well, pretty much everyone I fellowship with these days are ex-Wayfers. Does that count? :B) George

I'm not really sure. The other day, I was parked in my work van doing some paperwork. The van has our company name and nature of our business on the side. Some guy pulls up, gets out of his car and comes over to my window. Then he asks me if I do side jobs. (Forbidden by company due to conflict of interest.) Well, I explained that to him and suddenly the conversation somehow shifted topic and he was preaching a sermon on the evils of the illuminati, the masons and foreign financing. I listened politely as he calmly told me that HDTV is a GVT. plot to install TV's with built-in cameras in our homes so "they" can spy on us. Next, he told me how, in the future, all driver's licenses would have built in micro-chips to track our every move. Borrowing a line from a poster on GSC a few days ago, I chuckled and told him I wasn't worried because I already have a chip implanted in my forehead. My, oh, my, how quickly the conversation shifted yet again to focus on something cute his kid had done. Wayfer? I don't know. It sure wouldn't have come as any surprise, though, if a "green card" had suddenly appeared.