I think there's a distinct difference between forgiving someone...and restoring them to their previous position of authority.
For example...I could forgive Craig Martindale but I would never allow him to be in a leadership position again...and of course, are any of the examples that you listed TRULY repentant? It's easier to forgive someone when they admit their mistake and turn away from it...it's difficult to know this, when it comes to these high profile examples you list...for the most part, all we see or hear is a television soundbite or a brief article in a newspaper...
What about Jim Jones? He was a very charismatic minister.
According to former followers....Those women that belonged to Koresche generally were the daughters of followers who began their *service to Jesus* or statuatory rape experienced at about age 12.
Awww but HEY they are dead men, and after all.... they are not here to defend themselves...cough gag
What is the word of a few whining perpetual victims....We simply MUST do the loving thing and focus on the word they spoke and taught...Right??
... Jim Baker (of PTL fame) lied, embezzled, and covered up sex acts that may or may not have been consentual, and committed adultery. He was also convicted of
fraud, tax evasion and racketeering.
Does he get forgiven by other Christians now?
Does he get returned to his position as the leader of PTL?
Yes, so long as he has 'repented' of his wrongs, he should be fully forgiven.
No, he no longer qualifies to be a leader of the church.
... Jimmy Swaggart spent church moneys on consentual sex acts with prostitutes.
When he was caught, he was willing to make a partial confession-that he
sinned, but not what his sins were, and compared himself to King David of Israel.
Does he get forgiven by other Christians now?
Does he get returned to his position as the leader of PTL?
His televised confession was for public consumption, a PR thing. If he confessed his wrongs in his church, or to those whom he wronged, then yes.
As to returning to leadership? No.
... Oral Roberts, finding his ministries' financies in dire straits, announced that God
was taking him hostage for $8 million. He spent large amounts of their finances
on expensive clothes, jewelry and a private jet.
Does he get returned to his position as a church leader?
Did he confess to his wrongs?
I have not heard such.
... Peter Popoff was publicly exposed by James Randi (the Amazing Randi) & Johnny Carson.
The apparent healing miracles and prophetic acts performed by Popoff were in fact part of an elaborately stage-managed setup, including planting of audience members and broadcasts to an in-ear radio receiver.
Does he get returned to his position as a church leader?
Did he confess? If he did then, he should be forgiven.
However, he may have lost respectability.
... In 1991 ABC's Primetime Live announced that prayer requests sent along with financial donations to Tilton's organization were being thrown away without being read.
Do we resume handing over the loot to him?
I did not send him any of my money, I see no indication that I should start.
... Jim Whittington spent 10 years in prison for money laundering, mail fraud, conspiracy, and interstate transportation of stolen property from his evangelist crusades and direct mail business in the 1980s. He had high-speed boats and a Rolls-Royce.
Again, I feel the same.
... David Koresh ran the controversial Branch Dividian group of Christians, which was considered
controversial. After a raid of their hq near Waco, Tx, they all died. Among other things,
Koresh claimed that, technically, all the women in his group belonged to him.
Does his name get restored to respectability now?
His name only had 'respectability' among that sect, and no where else that I am aware of.
If he had survived, and served his prison sentence, and confessed, then fine he would be forgiven.
... Herbert W. Armstrong was the leader of the Worldwide Church of God. When alive, he committed sexual acts with his parishioners, including-and this was never challenged by him when it was asserted-serial incest. He spent God's money on planes and all sorts of luxuries. He plagiarized "his" work, and claimed it was revealed to him by God. He claimed it was revealed to him ALONE in this century. He claimed his "ministry" was the sole "one true church" today. He promised that financial success and an "abundant" life were there for people who followed his instructions. He died never having offered reparations or apologies to even SOME of the Christians whose lives he ruined.
Shall we call him a wonderful Christian now?
Shall we gloss over the hurts he inflicted on his congregation?
I would use the same measure here. If he committed wrongs chargeable against the state, then the state should have convicted him. If his church congregation feels that he wronged them, did he confess?
If they feel wronged by him, and if he never confessed; then no.
I think there's a distinct difference between forgiving someone...and restoring them to their previous position of authority.
For example...I could forgive Craig Martindale but I would never allow him to be in a leadership position again...and of course, are any of the examples that you listed TRULY repentant? It's easier to forgive someone when they admit their mistake and turn away from it...it's difficult to know this, when it comes to these high profile examples you list...for the most part, all we see or hear is a television soundbite or a brief article in a newspaper...
Yes we should forgive them. But that doesn't mean we let them take advantage of us.
Should we let them back in a leadership position.
Maybe. It would take a while for them to regain enough trust to be alowed to do so. But if they showed clear and obvious evidence of repentance (equalling a change in behavior and attitude) I believe that one could become a responsible leader.
Jim Baker, I believe, is back in a leadership position of a small ministry. From what I remember seeing he is doing very well and is very responsible. He was quoted on the program I watched as saying that he was much happier and more fulfilled than he ever was while he doing TV.
Forgive? Why is there a need to forgive these people? Just don't let them into your lives is all. I don't see any reason to forgive. God can forgive but then he is God. I don't have to let them into my life.
Does it say any where that you have to trust people? Why would you give them all the power then?
I don't know if forgiveness is the issue,but the guys mentioned above seem to only have the commonality that their followers thought they were following a man of God...A guy who does fake,staged miracles,throws prayer requests in the garbage,etc. obviously doesn't drink his own snake oil...He's not a sinful preacher,he's an imposter...A man who believes in what he's preaching,but succumbs to weakness or misuses and abuses his "calling" is a whole other matter...Sort of like the difference between a crooked cop and a civilian simply posing as a cop to screw people over....
Forgiveness is the mental and/or spiritual process of ceasing to feel resentment or anger against another person for a perceived offence, difference or mistake, or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution. Forgiveness may be considered simply in terms of the feelings of the person who forgives, or in terms of the relationship between the forgiver and the person forgiven. In some contexts, it may be granted without any expectation of compensation, and without any response on the part of the offender (for example, one may forgive a person who is dead). In practical terms, it may be necessary for the offender to offer some form of apology or restitution, or even just ask for forgiveness, in order for the wronged person to believe they are able to forgive
There is a lot of stuff in the Bible about forgiveness that I find interesting. Not all of it seems to jive for me. I guess it all depends on how you interpret the Bible and what you do to make it fit for you whether it be administrations or whatever else. I know I'm off the hook, but...I like to look at what I used to think I knew.
Let's see... don't ask me why the quote thingy isn't working for me
In the old testament there are verses that show people asking for thier enemies to be forgiven and verses asking for thier enemies not to be forgiven.
Psm. 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Context shows this is in reference to those that "fear" him (God).
NT:
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
He then tells the parable of the King who forgave the debt of servant and then the servant didn't forgive his fellowservant's debt and so the King tortured him.
Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
:26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Looks like God will forgive you your sins only if you forgive other people's sins. Don't judge and you won't be judged, don't condemn and you won't be condemned, but if you don't forgive you'll be both judged and condemned. Says nothing about repentance in any of those.
But, look at Luke 17:
:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
Sounds like the same account as the others but with the addition of "repent." So which is it? I know the one I like best. :) It also seems to line up with 1Jo 1:9...
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
How's bout' Luke 12
:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
I believe TWI taught this as the unforgivable sin, seed of the serpent, but I don't think it is that clear there. It says those that speak evil of God won't be forgiven. You don't have to be "seed" to do that. It also doesn't say anything about repentance, just that you won't be forgiven. Interesting.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
All tresspasses here. Different administration here, depending on who you are talking to.
Then of course there is Eph. 4
:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
:27 Neither give place to the devil.
:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
So don't do all those things but also forgive if you do. Forgive the way God has forgiven you. See previous citations for that. Confused?
Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
:7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
This comes right after "forgive as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you" and "sealed until the day of redemption." Yet, for those things there is no place in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Excellent post, Lindy. I wonder which part of the Bible some will choose to believe and which part they will discard, ignore or justify away.... :ph34r:
I would add that Christians are not only supposed to forgive but to LOVE their enemies - would that include Hitler? Castro? Saddam?
Luke 6:26-35
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Forgive? Doesn't the bible say 'woe unto those pastors'?...
I haven't really thought of any of these people... does that mean I haven't forgiven them... they were all wrong, along w/ those men we do know personally... people mess up... they're forgiven... but that doesn't mean they will have my trust or respect.
Now, Jim Baker does visit the Church down the 'road' from us, it's a Full Gospel place, and once in a while he comes and speaks... don't know if they consider that 'teaching', or if he's sharing on experience... after hearing about his visits, I just don't want to go there
I do not forgive them, primarily because I, individually, was never truly wronged by any of them. I now have reason not to trust them and detest the fact that they've given people "reason" to distrust God. And I have no qualms about relaying accurate info about them because I think that serves as a warning to others about them and the potential for others like them to repeat their actions.
There's a big difference between the two in my book. I can forgive someone who harmed me, but I will never forget their actions and never let them close to me and get hurt again.
That verse in Romans the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. If someone has an actual ministry of God, they don't lose it if they screw up. They may lose peoples' trust, but they don't lose the ability to minister.
The last 3 weeks my pastor has focused on forgiveness. It was eye-opening to me.
BikerBabe made the same distinction my pastor made: forgive does not equal forget. Especially concerning those with whom we have some sort of a relationship. There is a responsibility of boundaries. (Aha! That subject has come up on these boards before! :) )
One is NOT biblically required to forget as part of forgiveness.
For those with whom we no longer have some sort of relationship, the forgiving is primarily for our own wholeness...so we don't carry around bitterness and wrath and all that stuff.
If R.U. (the pedophile who was the scourge of Anchorage for a while) were to come to my door naked, hungry, thirsty and/or homeless, no way in hell would I let him in my door. I'd toss out a sheet for him to wrap himself in, point to the water hose, and then call the police and ask them to escort him to the nearest shelter.
So often the need to forgive and/or to be forgiven arises from not having clear boundaries in the first place...we make our own messes.
I always seek to forgive or be forgiven.
I used to always seek to reconcile. Not any longer, though. Reconciliation is not always important or in the best interest of either party.
Forgiveness is about recognizing what one has been forgiven for, not about making nice.
Whether living or dead, people who are in the position of ministers are examples. As such, they can be good examples or bad examples. We need not be judges of someone's afterlife, but to tell a good minister from a bad, which we are Biblically mandated to do, requires us to view or review a person's actions, particularly as they pertain to his exercise of his ministry.
VPW, regardless of anything he taught that was right, fit the Biblical description of someone we are to turn away from. The danger is that so few of us saw it in time. The lesson to be learned, repeatedly, is not to put trust in a man. Learning that Billy Graham has a secret life as a serial killer wouldn't cause me to reject everything he taught from the pulpit, but it would seriously alter my perception of the man.
Amazing to me that so many would look down on those who condemn the actions of VPW, calling such people quick to judge, when such an assertion is, itself, a judgment.
Everyone judges. You're supposed to. But there's a Biblical command not to judge at all, which by definition must be an example of hyperbole, as it is impossible and Biblically incorrect not to judge. The hyperbole takes the command to an extreme to make a point. Don't judge at all? That just means you must be extremely cautious about exercising judgment, particularly as reflexive judgmentalism can too easily be directed right back at you (or me).
How can Jesus himself tell you not to judge, then show you examples of what kinds of teachers to avoid? Is not the decision that a person meets the qualifications of someone to avoid an exercise of judgment? Either the command not to judge is an example of hyperbole, not to be taken literally, or the commands to exercise judgment are not truly of God.
I don't want to worship a god who tells me not to exercise judgment. Such a god wants you in the motorcoach and has disarmed you of the one weapon at your disposal to avoid ever being put in such a horrific position.
I oft wonder how things would have turned out had while alive, Wierwille publically confessed his crimes, exploitations and wrongdoings and stepped down. It's really quite tragic that he didn't, because it could have become a golden opportunity to putting the "grace" stuff through the ultimate test. At the very least, with some confession and humility, his legacy may not have turned out as irreversibly jaded as it is now.
At this point I don't feel hatred toward Wierwille - rather, great sadness and disappointment, at the thought of one having had at one time the resources and opportunities to effect so much good for so many, but rather, having used all this toward committing evil and selfish gain, and now, being dead, has no more opportunity in this earthly plane to rectify make up for those wrongs, in any way possible. Man, did he really blow it.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
6
5
5
4
Popular Days
Sep 20
22
Sep 21
13
Aug 6
9
Aug 7
9
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 6 posts
WordWolf 5 posts
templelady 5 posts
Deciderator 4 posts
Popular Days
Sep 20 2006
22 posts
Sep 21 2006
13 posts
Aug 6 2007
9 posts
Aug 7 2007
9 posts
GrouchoMarxJr
I think there's a distinct difference between forgiving someone...and restoring them to their previous position of authority.
For example...I could forgive Craig Martindale but I would never allow him to be in a leadership position again...and of course, are any of the examples that you listed TRULY repentant? It's easier to forgive someone when they admit their mistake and turn away from it...it's difficult to know this, when it comes to these high profile examples you list...for the most part, all we see or hear is a television soundbite or a brief article in a newspaper...
Edited by GrouchoMarxJrLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
What about Jim Jones? He was a very charismatic minister.
According to former followers....Those women that belonged to Koresche generally were the daughters of followers who began their *service to Jesus* or statuatory rape experienced at about age 12.
Awww but HEY they are dead men, and after all.... they are not here to defend themselves...cough gag
What is the word of a few whining perpetual victims....We simply MUST do the loving thing and focus on the word they spoke and taught...Right??
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
That felt nasty to type even in sacasm...bleche
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Groucho is correct there is a big difference between the two questions
Does he get forgiven by other Christians now?
Absolutely Yes
Does he get returned to his position as the leader of ........
Of course not
I assume you are considering guilty as in a real trial not by accusation, but proven guilt as in Jim Bakers case.
Edited by WhiteDoveLink to comment
Share on other sites
Galen
No, he no longer qualifies to be a leader of the church.
His televised confession was for public consumption, a PR thing. If he confessed his wrongs in his church, or to those whom he wronged, then yes.
As to returning to leadership? No.
Did he confess to his wrongs?I have not heard such.
Did he confess? If he did then, he should be forgiven.
However, he may have lost respectability.
I did not send him any of my money, I see no indication that I should start.Again, I feel the same.
His name only had 'respectability' among that sect, and no where else that I am aware of.If he had survived, and served his prison sentence, and confessed, then fine he would be forgiven.
I would use the same measure here. If he committed wrongs chargeable against the state, then the state should have convicted him. If his church congregation feels that he wronged them, did he confess?
If they feel wronged by him, and if he never confessed; then no.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Ditto on what Groucho said.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Keith
Yes we should forgive them. But that doesn't mean we let them take advantage of us.
Should we let them back in a leadership position.
Maybe. It would take a while for them to regain enough trust to be alowed to do so. But if they showed clear and obvious evidence of repentance (equalling a change in behavior and attitude) I believe that one could become a responsible leader.
Jim Baker, I believe, is back in a leadership position of a small ministry. From what I remember seeing he is doing very well and is very responsible. He was quoted on the program I watched as saying that he was much happier and more fulfilled than he ever was while he doing TV.
Edited by KeithLink to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
Forgive? Why is there a need to forgive these people? Just don't let them into your lives is all. I don't see any reason to forgive. God can forgive but then he is God. I don't have to let them into my life.
Does it say any where that you have to trust people? Why would you give them all the power then?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jim
I agree with Vickles.
Their forgiveness is not an issue one way or another with me. Let God sort it out.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
simonzelotes
I don't know if forgiveness is the issue,but the guys mentioned above seem to only have the commonality that their followers thought they were following a man of God...A guy who does fake,staged miracles,throws prayer requests in the garbage,etc. obviously doesn't drink his own snake oil...He's not a sinful preacher,he's an imposter...A man who believes in what he's preaching,but succumbs to weakness or misuses and abuses his "calling" is a whole other matter...Sort of like the difference between a crooked cop and a civilian simply posing as a cop to screw people over....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Forgiveness is the mental and/or spiritual process of ceasing to feel resentment or anger against another person for a perceived offence, difference or mistake, or ceasing to demand punishment or restitution. Forgiveness may be considered simply in terms of the feelings of the person who forgives, or in terms of the relationship between the forgiver and the person forgiven. In some contexts, it may be granted without any expectation of compensation, and without any response on the part of the offender (for example, one may forgive a person who is dead). In practical terms, it may be necessary for the offender to offer some form of apology or restitution, or even just ask for forgiveness, in order for the wronged person to believe they are able to forgive
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forgive
In short forgiveness has to do with healing how our hearts feel toward the offender
Forgiving in no way says that the person forgiven is now trustworthy, honest reliable etc etc etc
Link to comment
Share on other sites
lindyhopper
There is a lot of stuff in the Bible about forgiveness that I find interesting. Not all of it seems to jive for me. I guess it all depends on how you interpret the Bible and what you do to make it fit for you whether it be administrations or whatever else. I know I'm off the hook, but...I like to look at what I used to think I knew.
Let's see... don't ask me why the quote thingy isn't working for me
In the old testament there are verses that show people asking for thier enemies to be forgiven and verses asking for thier enemies not to be forgiven.
Psm. 103:12
Context shows this is in reference to those that "fear" him (God).
NT:
He then tells the parable of the King who forgave the debt of servant and then the servant didn't forgive his fellowservant's debt and so the King tortured him.
Looks like God will forgive you your sins only if you forgive other people's sins. Don't judge and you won't be judged, don't condemn and you won't be condemned, but if you don't forgive you'll be both judged and condemned. Says nothing about repentance in any of those.
But, look at Luke 17:
Sounds like the same account as the others but with the addition of "repent." So which is it? I know the one I like best. :) It also seems to line up with 1Jo 1:9...
How's bout' Luke 12
I believe TWI taught this as the unforgivable sin, seed of the serpent, but I don't think it is that clear there. It says those that speak evil of God won't be forgiven. You don't have to be "seed" to do that. It also doesn't say anything about repentance, just that you won't be forgiven. Interesting.
All tresspasses here. Different administration here, depending on who you are talking to.
Then of course there is Eph. 4
So don't do all those things but also forgive if you do. Forgive the way God has forgiven you. See previous citations for that. Confused?
This comes right after "forgive as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you" and "sealed until the day of redemption." Yet, for those things there is no place in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
I feel the doctrinal forum coming on.
Sorry
Edited by lindyhopperLink to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Excellent post, Lindy. I wonder which part of the Bible some will choose to believe and which part they will discard, ignore or justify away.... :ph34r:
I would add that Christians are not only supposed to forgive but to LOVE their enemies - would that include Hitler? Castro? Saddam?
Luke 6:26-35
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also.
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
SafariVista
Forgive? Doesn't the bible say 'woe unto those pastors'?...
I haven't really thought of any of these people... does that mean I haven't forgiven them... they were all wrong, along w/ those men we do know personally... people mess up... they're forgiven... but that doesn't mean they will have my trust or respect.
Now, Jim Baker does visit the Church down the 'road' from us, it's a Full Gospel place, and once in a while he comes and speaks... don't know if they consider that 'teaching', or if he's sharing on experience... after hearing about his visits, I just don't want to go there
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
I do not forgive them, primarily because I, individually, was never truly wronged by any of them. I now have reason not to trust them and detest the fact that they've given people "reason" to distrust God. And I have no qualms about relaying accurate info about them because I think that serves as a warning to others about them and the potential for others like them to repeat their actions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
coupcake
I second what both Groucho and TempleLady had to say.
Edited by coupcakeLink to comment
Share on other sites
BikerBabe
Forgive someone when they mess up? Sure.
Forget what they did? Never!
There's a big difference between the two in my book. I can forgive someone who harmed me, but I will never forget their actions and never let them close to me and get hurt again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Stayed Too Long
Peter denied Jesus a number of times and his leadership position was never called into question.
Judas betrayed Jesus and he was never kicked out of the 12.
Thomas doubted that Jesus rose from the dead and his position was not taken from him.
Paul slaughtered quite a few Christians and the people let him become their leader.
David had men killed so he could have their wives and he was never removed as king.
I don't think the bible says leaders who sin should be kicked out of their positions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
watersedge
Jesus said on the cross, "father forgive them for they know not what they do"
This seems to be a blanket statement of gift giving, a gift un-earned, yet given despite circumstance
"Go and sin no more" is another example
Those that placed Jesus on the tree of embaressment didn't "deserve" his forgiveness
The woman caught in adultery didn't either
gifts are given, by those who freely give
by those who care not upon the return of favor
that is what makes it a gift
Give and you will recieve, a gift beyond expectation
that is salvation, that is peace, that is restoration
far beyond the frailties of human understanding
that is why we have Jesus Christ
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
That verse in Romans the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. If someone has an actual ministry of God, they don't lose it if they screw up. They may lose peoples' trust, but they don't lose the ability to minister.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
The last 3 weeks my pastor has focused on forgiveness. It was eye-opening to me.
BikerBabe made the same distinction my pastor made: forgive does not equal forget. Especially concerning those with whom we have some sort of a relationship. There is a responsibility of boundaries. (Aha! That subject has come up on these boards before! :) )
One is NOT biblically required to forget as part of forgiveness.
For those with whom we no longer have some sort of relationship, the forgiving is primarily for our own wholeness...so we don't carry around bitterness and wrath and all that stuff.
If R.U. (the pedophile who was the scourge of Anchorage for a while) were to come to my door naked, hungry, thirsty and/or homeless, no way in hell would I let him in my door. I'd toss out a sheet for him to wrap himself in, point to the water hose, and then call the police and ask them to escort him to the nearest shelter.
So often the need to forgive and/or to be forgiven arises from not having clear boundaries in the first place...we make our own messes.
I always seek to forgive or be forgiven.
I used to always seek to reconcile. Not any longer, though. Reconciliation is not always important or in the best interest of either party.
Forgiveness is about recognizing what one has been forgiven for, not about making nice.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
So, then,
is everyone saying (or almost everyone- STL has made exception)
that there's a separate issue between "forgiveness"
and "telling the truth" about them,
and that redemption AND forgiveness have NOTHING to do
with trusting them again, and pretending they never hurt anyone,
and that the trust and pretending they did no wrong is OUTSIDE
our responsibilities?
So, for example,
when discussing Herbert W. Armstrong,
we are NOT required to pretend he didn't do wrong,
or gloss over the hurts he did others?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Whether living or dead, people who are in the position of ministers are examples. As such, they can be good examples or bad examples. We need not be judges of someone's afterlife, but to tell a good minister from a bad, which we are Biblically mandated to do, requires us to view or review a person's actions, particularly as they pertain to his exercise of his ministry.
VPW, regardless of anything he taught that was right, fit the Biblical description of someone we are to turn away from. The danger is that so few of us saw it in time. The lesson to be learned, repeatedly, is not to put trust in a man. Learning that Billy Graham has a secret life as a serial killer wouldn't cause me to reject everything he taught from the pulpit, but it would seriously alter my perception of the man.
Amazing to me that so many would look down on those who condemn the actions of VPW, calling such people quick to judge, when such an assertion is, itself, a judgment.
Everyone judges. You're supposed to. But there's a Biblical command not to judge at all, which by definition must be an example of hyperbole, as it is impossible and Biblically incorrect not to judge. The hyperbole takes the command to an extreme to make a point. Don't judge at all? That just means you must be extremely cautious about exercising judgment, particularly as reflexive judgmentalism can too easily be directed right back at you (or me).
How can Jesus himself tell you not to judge, then show you examples of what kinds of teachers to avoid? Is not the decision that a person meets the qualifications of someone to avoid an exercise of judgment? Either the command not to judge is an example of hyperbole, not to be taken literally, or the commands to exercise judgment are not truly of God.
I don't want to worship a god who tells me not to exercise judgment. Such a god wants you in the motorcoach and has disarmed you of the one weapon at your disposal to avoid ever being put in such a horrific position.
Edited by RafLink to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
I oft wonder how things would have turned out had while alive, Wierwille publically confessed his crimes, exploitations and wrongdoings and stepped down. It's really quite tragic that he didn't, because it could have become a golden opportunity to putting the "grace" stuff through the ultimate test. At the very least, with some confession and humility, his legacy may not have turned out as irreversibly jaded as it is now.
At this point I don't feel hatred toward Wierwille - rather, great sadness and disappointment, at the thought of one having had at one time the resources and opportunities to effect so much good for so many, but rather, having used all this toward committing evil and selfish gain, and now, being dead, has no more opportunity in this earthly plane to rectify make up for those wrongs, in any way possible. Man, did he really blow it.
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.