I remember being in FLO and hearing with horror that the goal was that no one would EVER hold any kind of leadership position, including twig leader/coordinator without being a WC grad. Which was stupid then and is stupid now. The program might make an individual more knowledgeable and adept at kissing butt, but had little to do, at least in my three months or he!! there, with living life with God's people, loving them and teaching them and walking with them (rather than walking all over them).
I got in very deep do-do once for commenting to a staff member, a WC grad naturally, that my father had taught me to hold tree branches aside for someone following me through the woods, rather than criticizing the follower for following too closely and getting whapped in the face as a result. I mean screaming at me and what an ignorant fool my father must have been, was HE a WC grad? Oh he!! no, so he didn't know beans from barium about anything, now did he? The offendee was a graduate of the WC and therefore filled with all the knowledge, wisdom and understanding of the universe and WHO THE HE!! DID I THINK I WAS TO OFFER A SUGGESTION TO THIS GREAT AND MIGHTY MAN OF GOD?
I still hold branches aside for the follower, and I still think Dad knew more about woodsmanship than that puffed up little $hytazz. But he was WC and therefore knew everything. And I have forgiven the above nameless idiot, even for maligning a man he had never met who was a better man than he knew existed.
Yeah.....lots of little $hytazzes throughout my twi/corps tenure when it came to the organizational side of things. Only good-hearted people sweetened the moments and memories. But twi????.....nope, don't miss it one bit.
When I was a WOW.....some $hytazzes were WOW vets.
When I was a WOW vet.....some $hytazzes were corps.
When I was inresidence corps....some $hytazzes were corps grads.
When I was a corps grad.........some $hytazzes were clergy.
When I was twi clergy...........some $hytazzes were limb coordinators.
When I was a limb coord.........some $hytazzes were region or trunk guys.
When I was at large twi events.....some $hytazzes had trustee titles.
UNLESS YOU WERE THE LEAD DOG......lock-step following is a $hytazz view of life.
Sadly VPW's attitude infected most everyone. Marc Andreessen, one of the founders of Netscape said something like "Netscape started with employees that wanted to make it a successful company and ended up with employees that wanted to work for a successful company. I saw some of this principle at work in TWI.
Sadly VPW's attitude infected most everyone. Marc Andreessen, one of the founders of Netscape said something like "Netscape started with employees that wanted to make it a successful company and ended up with employees that wanted to work for a successful company. I saw some of this principle at work in TWI.
Wierwille had a PT Barnum approach.....always trying to be "the greatest show on earth." He knew how to strike a balance in public appearances and absent mystique. Of course, at age 55 in 1972....wierwille's attempts no longer worked on the Ohio farmers, but the youth were mesmerized. And, his chain-smoking, drambuie-sipping, rebellion-spouting, church-demeaning, sex-talking, communal-living, spontaneous-living, swagger was appealing to us young rebels.
It was about money. With all the hype in those days about going into the WC, how would it have looked to the general masses if someone were an effective leader while not being WC grad?
Also, the program would have worked better if there were very vew corps assignments. In other words, TWI (as it were) would provide the training. Perhaps the training would help someone formulate a goal or vision for their ministry or whatever. After graduation, the individual would decide what to do, not Father Wierwille. Maybe it would be to start a new work somewhere; maybe it would be to support a work already in existence. I think that was the way it was originally promoted.
TWI was not qualified to run a program such as this because the truth was they knew almost nothing about developing leaders. They were incompetent and ineffective but they would laud the WC program to the skies. Most people I knew in The Way Corps were just regular people trying to accomplish something for God, or so we thought. Many, and I saw it myself, acted less than kind when they went on the field. I'll offer two reasons for this, there are probably more.
1) The "acting tough was a cover for a feeling, or inner suspicion, of inadequacy; inadequacy as a leader, and possibly inadequacy as a person.
2) This tough, "in your face" behavior was what was modeled to us in our "training". We thought that was how a leader was supposed to act.
As I mentioned, not everyone acted this way. I can think of some people who did not. Keep in mind, the reality of the whole thing is that we were just a bunch of kids who thought we knew what we were doing. If you were 30 back then, you were old. I think back to some of my own actions and I bristle. I would never do those things now. When I read posts here on GSC about some idiotic thing a Corps grad did or said, I rack my brains trying to figure out if the person might be talking about me. I'm sure there are followers out there who could tell some very interesting stories about my "leadership style".
In other words, TWI (as it were) would provide the training. Perhaps the training would help someone formulate a goal or vision for their ministry or whatever. After graduation, the individual would decide what to do, not Father Wierwille. Maybe it would be to start a new work somewhere; maybe it would be to support a work already in existence. I think that was the way it was originally promoted.
That is, in essence, how the Fellow Laborer program was promoted. (at least to me) We were supposed to be "in-rez." at limb HQ for two years to do an in depth study of Acts. Then we were supposed to go back home as better, more qualified leaders. (Anyone who actually participated in the program is probably chuckling their butt off reading that.)
I can't think of any TWI programs that worked as promoted!
In my observation, those who were effective leaders before going in, were also effective leaders coming out, (although some of those were corrupted while in) and those who weren't were just as ineffective upon graduation, only know they thought they were leaders.
For the most part, the problem wasn't the people in the program, it was the whole idea that "leaders" were even needed.
something i am finding out now that i am "over 30" is that when i wasn't "over 30" it all seemed like such a good idea to "change the world" with a "new, improved" vision of things and when i read discussions like this one and i see how "doc vic" used young people to do his dirty work i get to thinking about how society as a whole uses young people to do its dirty work, and i even think of other religious groups and nowadays how every "non-denominational" religious group is run by people barely in their twenties thinking they are going to "change the world" with some "new, improved" vision of things. there's this one church that i used to go to because it was so "hip" and "with it" and the pastors were young and "alive" (meaning about my age) but now they're still about my age and have children and out of college and they've done everything the "old timers" we were so disgusted with had done like begged for more tithes and offerings, made bigger boards with more "suitable" board members (in other words, more "old timers" with more money to invest in programs) and are even shunning those "off beats" that helped them start the church because they don't pay tithes and offerings as much as others do. so what i'm trying to say is that i think "doc vic" picked up on the same old idea that if you want to start a movement, get the kids to do it and then you can dump them once they're used up. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that's a good thing or that i agree with it at all, but i'm just saying he was hardly the first or the only con man to run this particular con.
I can't think of any TWI programs that worked as promoted!
In my observation, those who were effective leaders before going in, were also effective leaders coming out, (although some of those were corrupted while in) and those who weren't were just as ineffective upon graduation, only know they thought they were leaders.
For the most part, the problem wasn't the people in the program, it was the whole idea that "leaders" were even needed.
I think you nailed it on the head Oakspear, except I think leaders were needed. We just didn't need leaders sanctioned and under the control of The Way International. The fact TWI didn't know how to raise up leaders only exacerbated the problem. The cream should have been allowed to rise to the top so to speak. Any talents or abilities exhibited could have been encouraged and strengthened instead of saying, "We'll make you into a leader." But who was there to do that? We were all in our 20's with very few middle-aged folks to guide.
You think maybe Wierwille ran them off, or maybe they ran off? After all, if Wierwille would have had peers around, someone may have confronted his character and conduct. Now we couldn't have that could we?
I think you nailed it on the head Oakspear, except I think leaders were needed. We just didn't need leaders sanctioned and under the control of The Way International. The fact TWI didn't know how to raise up leaders only exacerbated the problem. The cream should have been allowed to rise to the top so to speak. Any talents or abilities exhibited could have been encouraged and strengthened instead of saying, "We'll make you into a leader." But who was there to do that? We were all in our 20's with very few middle-aged folks to guide.
You think maybe Wierwille ran them off, or maybe they ran off? After all, if Wierwille would have had peers around, someone may have confronted his character and conduct. Now we couldn't have that could we?
Leaders needed for what? To run the cult? Not being facetious. . . . I just don't get it.
.. .I knew many, many non-corps who had better qualities, better leadership than corps. And, every time that waysider (a GS poster) details his fellow-laborers commitment.....it exemplifies how many non-corps had the same drive, discipline and determination to fulfill "spiritual quests." But rather than spur on this pi$ing contest between corps vs non-corps.......I see it as a divisive measure that fueled a competitive nature in the ranks of twi.. .
.
Sometimes I think VP reveled in the strife he generated
A great point guys! Maybe this isn't where you wanted to go on this but it's all i thought of on it.. .anywho.. .divide & conquer was one of vp's most powerful weapons imho. Divide and conquer is a key strategy to gain or maintain power. I see it at every phase of my TWI experience. As a newbie, I was slowly pulling away from relationships and interests that had nothing to do with TWI. Family, friends, hobbies, etc. which were a part of MY life, maybe somewhat defining who I was – heritage, preferences, likes & dislikes, habits – all being severed in a most insidious manner – by ME in my desire to achieve the happiness & fulfillment that was promised to those who sold out!
Maybe it's pressing it a bit – but I even think the way vp works at getting PFAL students to disregard the five senses & any knowledge obtained by them in favor of the superior "spiritual knowledge" in his class was a divisive means of overthrowing our mainline of defense in the cerebral arena – our powers of reason.
Thinking of any of their programs I now see them as a divide & conquer tactic at the most rudimentary level – breaking down all aspects of one's personality – in order to render it malleable. Makes me think of the cracking process in chemistry – the breaking down of something complex into something smaller and more useful. In regards to people – TWI's programs worked at reducing folks to some kind of a raw pliable material that they could pour into a mold to suit their agenda.
I remember the theme of my first few months in-residence "world out, word in". And yeah I can even see a sick competition in the ranks generated by this. "How much old-man stuff can you get rid of? How fast can you change? Do you have what it takes to be Corps? How committed are you? Remember Paul considered it all rubbish compared to knowing the greatness of the Word!" It was a weird competition though – we weren't all striving for some unique goal or reward that cannot be shared. We were all shooting for becoming the ideal Way believer.
Ya know, maybe in the background of many controversies, this divide & conquer threat loomed like a deterrent to maintain the unity. If there's 99 percent of the folks on the side of the man-O-gawd on a certain issue - do I have the cajones to disagree if I see things differently? To be honest - I usually saw things their way since I was brain dead anyway. But in the time leading up to when I left TWI - a fear of being destroyed [becoming a grease spot by midnight :unsure:] through the folly of thinking for myself was a very real hurdle to overcome.
~~
I can't think of any TWI programs that worked as promoted!
In my observation, those who were effective leaders before going in, were also effective leaders coming out, (although some of those were corrupted while in) and those who weren't were just as ineffective upon graduation, only know they thought they were leaders.
For the most part, the problem wasn't the people in the program, it was the whole idea that "leaders" were even needed.
Yeah I agree – TWI's programs didn't give anything to participants that they didn't already have.. .and my 2 cents on leadership from some management book I've read – there's leaders [who have the vision, clearly see the goal] and then there's managers [who adopt the vision of the leader and plans & directs the work of those under them toward the goal]. Imho TWI had only one leader [the prez], all the programs were designed to develop managers.
Actually, as leadership training went, we were taught to become great followers (because you can't be a great leader without fisrt being a great follower). Therefore, we were okay to accept menial roles in the dishroom or wherever, because that was a way of following (Jesus washed feet, that was a menial servant job). A few in rez elder Corps got to coordinate in-rez twigs or otherwise got to boss a few others about in work crews. But one didn't get such a position without already being appropriate doormat leadership material.
At no point was there any teaching of leadership principles, vision, communicating one's vision, psychology, strategy or anything that might help become a more effective leader. Early Corps got some "counselling" training; nothing when I was in rez.
I think the greatest values from my time in rez are:
1. Meeting some awesome people, both in rez and recently on staff.
2. Seeing what good leadership IS NOT.
3. An opportunity to read the Bible quietly for myself, when I wouldn't have made that amount of time anyway.
I did meet some truly awesome and good-hearted people, who were great to be working with. But I think they would have been great leaders anyway, because they loved people and cared about their work crews.
I also met some people I avoided as much as possible. It was easy to spot some wannabes whilst in rez.
Yeah I agree – TWI's programs didn't give anything to participants that they didn't already have.. .and my 2 cents on leadership from some management book I've read – there's leaders [who have the vision, clearly see the goal] and then there's managers [who adopt the vision of the leader and plans & directs the work of those under them toward the goal]. Imho TWI had only one leader [the prez], all the programs were designed to develop managers.
The corps program was not a leadership program.........it was a followship program.
Wierwille designed the way corps to follow orders, to promote pfal, to run classes PERIOD. Even after corps graduation, wierwille brought these corps grads -- limb/region leaders -- BACK TO HQ FOR MORE TRAINING INDOCTRINATION. This move accomplished two things: 1) it gutted them from any growing allegiance/following in their respective states and 2) wierwille wanted them to know that "he was still in charge"....ie they were to follow him or else!
Yet, I've long contested that many corps grads were bolting as early as 1978/79. The wierwille illusion was wearing thin, the mog-hype was unraveling, the corps program had become a doulos-slave camp. To stop the hemorraging of corps grads.....bullying and name-calling mounted on corps nights. Mandatory meetings and mandatory corps week attendance might have slowed the hemorraging....but it only, especially in hindsight, highlighted the obvious: wierwille was NOT who we thought he was.
Yes, many corps grads want martindale to be the fall guy for twi, but in truth.....it was wierwille. He baked the loaf with leaven......the absent Christ teachings, the "law of believing," the man of God of the universe allegiance, the elitist attitude, the household of zion, the truth like it hasn't been known since the first century, the new dynamic church cult, etc. etc.
When corps/clergy stopped following wierwille they were history....striken from twi listings, twi history, twi bookstores. Huh? Wasn't this about being Christ-like? Wasn't this about following scriptures? NOPE. This was about wierwille. This was about wierwille's legacy. This was about wierwille's cult.
The corps program WAS the leaven in the way ministry.....it accelerated the elistist and antagonistic fermentation in the whole loaf. It puffed up twi AGAINST the knowledge of God.
Wierwille's corps, for the most part, BECAME the image of wierwille.
Any talents or abilities exhibited could have been encouraged and strengthened instead of saying, "We'll make you into a leader."
Abilities and talents were NOT encouraged for any other reason but to serve Wierwille's goals, clothed in the verbiage that they were "moving The Word." Only there WAS NOT ANY WORD only VP's dogmas.
The corps program was not a leadership program.........it was a followship program.
Wierwille designed the way corps to follow orders, to promote pfal, to run classes PERIOD. Even after corps graduation, wierwille brought these corps grads -- limb/region leaders -- BACK TO HQ FOR MORE TRAINING INDOCTRINATION. This move accomplished two things: 1) it gutted them from any growing allegiance/following in their respective states and 2) wierwille wanted them to know that "he was still in charge"....ie they were to follow him or else!
Yet, I've long contested that many corps grads were bolting as early as 1978/79. The wierwille illusion was wearing thin, the mog-hype was unraveling, the corps program had become a doulos-slave camp. To stop the hemorraging of corps grads.....bullying and name-calling mounted on corps nights. Mandatory meetings and mandatory corps week attendance might have slowed the hemorraging....but it only, especially in hindsight, highlighted the obvious: wierwille was NOT who we thought he was.
Yes, many corps grads want martindale to be the fall guy for twi, but in truth.....it was wierwille. He baked the loaf with leaven......the absent Christ teachings, the "law of believing," the man of God of the universe allegiance, the elitist attitude, the household of zion, the truth like it hasn't been known since the first century, the new dynamic church cult, etc. etc.
When corps/clergy stopped following wierwille they were history....striken from twi listings, twi history, twi bookstores. Huh? Wasn't this about being Christ-like? Wasn't this about following scriptures? NOPE. This was about wierwille. This was about wierwille's legacy. This was about wierwille's cult.
The corps program WAS the leaven in the way ministry.....it accelerated the elistist and antagonistic fermentation in the whole loaf. It puffed up twi AGAINST the knowledge of God.
Wierwille's corps, for the most part, BECAME the image of wierwille.
<_<
I agree. We were told we must carry VP's "heart for the Word and the ministry" to the world because he was only one man and could not do it all himself. Basically, we were to be PFAL puppets, etc.
Maybe it's pressing it a bit – but I even think the way vp works at getting PFAL students to disregard the five senses & any knowledge obtained by them in favor of the superior "spiritual knowledge" in his class was a divisive means of overthrowing our mainline of defense in the cerebral arena – our powers of reason.
Thinking of any of their programs I now see them as a divide & conquer tactic at the most rudimentary level – breaking down all aspects of one's personality – in order to render it malleable. Makes me think of the cracking process in chemistry – the breaking down of something complex into something smaller and more useful. In regards to people – TWI's programs worked at reducing folks to some kind of a raw pliable material that they could pour into a mold to suit their agenda.
T-Bone.....I agree. Wierwille latched onto "scriptural triggers" that he could use to mold his self-serving agendas such as Romans 12:2......"Be ye TRANSFORMED (yada, yada, yada)..." And, who better to lord over this transformation, to be acceptable......than wierwille???
Having moved away from the church-style setup, wierwille experimented with program after program in his narcisstic laboratory of interests. The WOW program, Fellow-Laborers, the College WOWs, Medical WOWs, the WOW Vet Program to 12 Cities, the Way Corps, the LEAD program.....all were to "transform" the individual, right?
In hindsight, it's apparent that NONE of wierwille's classes, seminars or programs were original. He copied and tweaked "his" classes and programs from multiple sources through the decades. Heck, even the "original radio broadcast program in 1942" was a copycat of another radio program that wierwille listened to each week. Men like JE Stiles, Oral Roberts, BG Leonard and others......gave a desperate wierwille inroads to lording over youthful transformations.
And, the corps indoctrination was the pinnacle of transformation, BECAUSE OF ITS ISOLATION. Removed for months on end from family, friends, newspapers.....all information was filtered through vpw-leadership that monitored all aspects of "spiritual transformation." Into the abyss of isolationism and cult control, wierwille masked his sexual predation all to no avail via the internet.
My experience with Corps ... as a twiglet was that many of them did not understand what their role really should be as a leader...
They expected everyone to have the same level of commitment to the word(TWI DOCTRINE)as they had...
They had little patience for the regular believer... and felt that they were superior.
And when they ran a TWIG the people in the twig could tell they felt this way...
If they were lucky they had a regular person around to remind them that their position as a twig leader was not to be a superior but to be a loving example of how to study and practice the lifestyle of Christ and the Apostles...
(Yes I know this is contrary to what VP taught and I am darn sure it goes contrary to CM's teachings, I also know the one person I was closest to struggled with this and I am not sure but I suspect it was the reason we finally actually left..because the truth of what he was supposed to be went contrary to what Corps taught him to be)
Corps was incredibly divisive, but how could it be anything but that when you realize that the people in charge were teaching a bunch of lies... and were following the wrong person, both of them VP and CM were angry horrible men. there was no love for the people involved in TWI.
Wierwille had no training for creating his version of a theological seminary(though he attended 2 such institutions, and no, Pikes Peak does not count). Instead he merged a counterfeit seminary with Peace Corps, Salvation Army, and American military, particularly Marines. His WOW program was based on domestic evangelistic programs such as Jehovah's Witness and the Mormons(plus some Baptists) and Census field workers based on Navigators/Billy Graham Evangelistic Association's Christian Life and Witness Course(also used in Campus Crusaders for Christ and Fellowship of Christian Atheletes)and retitled as Witnessing and Undershepherding(see separate topic forum). His plagarized works were from Norman Vincent Peale, Robert Schuller, Albert Cliffe, Dale Carnegie, Ruben Archer Torrey, Albert Benjamin Simpson, Watchman Nee, certain books by Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Derek Prince, Ethelbert Bullinger, Ezzak William Kenyon, George Lamsa,Stiles, Leonard, etc. We were naive and led by a Satanic counterfeit to genuine Christianity. If only we all were given a second chance and make a different choice.
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skyrider
double post
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TheHighWay
Hey, I was once a sweet College Division girl at Emporia!! (and then I went into the corps)
THW
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Watered Garden
I remember being in FLO and hearing with horror that the goal was that no one would EVER hold any kind of leadership position, including twig leader/coordinator without being a WC grad. Which was stupid then and is stupid now. The program might make an individual more knowledgeable and adept at kissing butt, but had little to do, at least in my three months or he!! there, with living life with God's people, loving them and teaching them and walking with them (rather than walking all over them).
I got in very deep do-do once for commenting to a staff member, a WC grad naturally, that my father had taught me to hold tree branches aside for someone following me through the woods, rather than criticizing the follower for following too closely and getting whapped in the face as a result. I mean screaming at me and what an ignorant fool my father must have been, was HE a WC grad? Oh he!! no, so he didn't know beans from barium about anything, now did he? The offendee was a graduate of the WC and therefore filled with all the knowledge, wisdom and understanding of the universe and WHO THE HE!! DID I THINK I WAS TO OFFER A SUGGESTION TO THIS GREAT AND MIGHTY MAN OF GOD?
I still hold branches aside for the follower, and I still think Dad knew more about woodsmanship than that puffed up little $hytazz. But he was WC and therefore knew everything. And I have forgiven the above nameless idiot, even for maligning a man he had never met who was a better man than he knew existed.
WG
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skyrider
Yeah.....lots of little $hytazzes throughout my twi/corps tenure when it came to the organizational side of things. Only good-hearted people sweetened the moments and memories. But twi????.....nope, don't miss it one bit.
When I was a WOW.....some $hytazzes were WOW vets.
When I was a WOW vet.....some $hytazzes were corps.
When I was inresidence corps....some $hytazzes were corps grads.
When I was a corps grad.........some $hytazzes were clergy.
When I was twi clergy...........some $hytazzes were limb coordinators.
When I was a limb coord.........some $hytazzes were region or trunk guys.
When I was at large twi events.....some $hytazzes had trustee titles.
UNLESS YOU WERE THE LEAD DOG......lock-step following is a $hytazz view of life.
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waysider
Sometimes I think VP reveled in the strife he generated
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dmiller
If you ain't the Lead Dog, the view never changes.
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Ham
and for the life of me.. I can't figure why anyone would want to duplicate the process..
I'm really starting to think it is far more sinister than it appears..
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Jim
Sadly VPW's attitude infected most everyone. Marc Andreessen, one of the founders of Netscape said something like "Netscape started with employees that wanted to make it a successful company and ended up with employees that wanted to work for a successful company. I saw some of this principle at work in TWI.
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skyrider
Wierwille had a PT Barnum approach.....always trying to be "the greatest show on earth." He knew how to strike a balance in public appearances and absent mystique. Of course, at age 55 in 1972....wierwille's attempts no longer worked on the Ohio farmers, but the youth were mesmerized. And, his chain-smoking, drambuie-sipping, rebellion-spouting, church-demeaning, sex-talking, communal-living, spontaneous-living, swagger was appealing to us young rebels.
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Broken Arrow
It was about money. With all the hype in those days about going into the WC, how would it have looked to the general masses if someone were an effective leader while not being WC grad?
Also, the program would have worked better if there were very vew corps assignments. In other words, TWI (as it were) would provide the training. Perhaps the training would help someone formulate a goal or vision for their ministry or whatever. After graduation, the individual would decide what to do, not Father Wierwille. Maybe it would be to start a new work somewhere; maybe it would be to support a work already in existence. I think that was the way it was originally promoted.
TWI was not qualified to run a program such as this because the truth was they knew almost nothing about developing leaders. They were incompetent and ineffective but they would laud the WC program to the skies. Most people I knew in The Way Corps were just regular people trying to accomplish something for God, or so we thought. Many, and I saw it myself, acted less than kind when they went on the field. I'll offer two reasons for this, there are probably more.
1) The "acting tough was a cover for a feeling, or inner suspicion, of inadequacy; inadequacy as a leader, and possibly inadequacy as a person.
2) This tough, "in your face" behavior was what was modeled to us in our "training". We thought that was how a leader was supposed to act.
As I mentioned, not everyone acted this way. I can think of some people who did not. Keep in mind, the reality of the whole thing is that we were just a bunch of kids who thought we knew what we were doing. If you were 30 back then, you were old. I think back to some of my own actions and I bristle. I would never do those things now. When I read posts here on GSC about some idiotic thing a Corps grad did or said, I rack my brains trying to figure out if the person might be talking about me. I'm sure there are followers out there who could tell some very interesting stories about my "leadership style".
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Broken Arrow
Nice picture!
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waysider
That is, in essence, how the Fellow Laborer program was promoted. (at least to me) We were supposed to be "in-rez." at limb HQ for two years to do an in depth study of Acts. Then we were supposed to go back home as better, more qualified leaders. (Anyone who actually participated in the program is probably chuckling their butt off reading that.)
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Oakspear
I can't think of any TWI programs that worked as promoted!
In my observation, those who were effective leaders before going in, were also effective leaders coming out, (although some of those were corrupted while in) and those who weren't were just as ineffective upon graduation, only know they thought they were leaders.
For the most part, the problem wasn't the people in the program, it was the whole idea that "leaders" were even needed.
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brainfixed
something i am finding out now that i am "over 30" is that when i wasn't "over 30" it all seemed like such a good idea to "change the world" with a "new, improved" vision of things and when i read discussions like this one and i see how "doc vic" used young people to do his dirty work i get to thinking about how society as a whole uses young people to do its dirty work, and i even think of other religious groups and nowadays how every "non-denominational" religious group is run by people barely in their twenties thinking they are going to "change the world" with some "new, improved" vision of things. there's this one church that i used to go to because it was so "hip" and "with it" and the pastors were young and "alive" (meaning about my age) but now they're still about my age and have children and out of college and they've done everything the "old timers" we were so disgusted with had done like begged for more tithes and offerings, made bigger boards with more "suitable" board members (in other words, more "old timers" with more money to invest in programs) and are even shunning those "off beats" that helped them start the church because they don't pay tithes and offerings as much as others do. so what i'm trying to say is that i think "doc vic" picked up on the same old idea that if you want to start a movement, get the kids to do it and then you can dump them once they're used up. don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that's a good thing or that i agree with it at all, but i'm just saying he was hardly the first or the only con man to run this particular con.
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Broken Arrow
I think you nailed it on the head Oakspear, except I think leaders were needed. We just didn't need leaders sanctioned and under the control of The Way International. The fact TWI didn't know how to raise up leaders only exacerbated the problem. The cream should have been allowed to rise to the top so to speak. Any talents or abilities exhibited could have been encouraged and strengthened instead of saying, "We'll make you into a leader." But who was there to do that? We were all in our 20's with very few middle-aged folks to guide.
You think maybe Wierwille ran them off, or maybe they ran off? After all, if Wierwille would have had peers around, someone may have confronted his character and conduct. Now we couldn't have that could we?
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geisha779
Leaders needed for what? To run the cult? Not being facetious. . . . I just don't get it.
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T-Bone
A great point guys! Maybe this isn't where you wanted to go on this but it's all i thought of on it.. .anywho.. .divide & conquer was one of vp's most powerful weapons imho. Divide and conquer is a key strategy to gain or maintain power. I see it at every phase of my TWI experience. As a newbie, I was slowly pulling away from relationships and interests that had nothing to do with TWI. Family, friends, hobbies, etc. which were a part of MY life, maybe somewhat defining who I was – heritage, preferences, likes & dislikes, habits – all being severed in a most insidious manner – by ME in my desire to achieve the happiness & fulfillment that was promised to those who sold out!
Maybe it's pressing it a bit – but I even think the way vp works at getting PFAL students to disregard the five senses & any knowledge obtained by them in favor of the superior "spiritual knowledge" in his class was a divisive means of overthrowing our mainline of defense in the cerebral arena – our powers of reason.
Thinking of any of their programs I now see them as a divide & conquer tactic at the most rudimentary level – breaking down all aspects of one's personality – in order to render it malleable. Makes me think of the cracking process in chemistry – the breaking down of something complex into something smaller and more useful. In regards to people – TWI's programs worked at reducing folks to some kind of a raw pliable material that they could pour into a mold to suit their agenda.
I remember the theme of my first few months in-residence "world out, word in". And yeah I can even see a sick competition in the ranks generated by this. "How much old-man stuff can you get rid of? How fast can you change? Do you have what it takes to be Corps? How committed are you? Remember Paul considered it all rubbish compared to knowing the greatness of the Word!" It was a weird competition though – we weren't all striving for some unique goal or reward that cannot be shared. We were all shooting for becoming the ideal Way believer.
Ya know, maybe in the background of many controversies, this divide & conquer threat loomed like a deterrent to maintain the unity. If there's 99 percent of the folks on the side of the man-O-gawd on a certain issue - do I have the cajones to disagree if I see things differently? To be honest - I usually saw things their way since I was brain dead anyway. But in the time leading up to when I left TWI - a fear of being destroyed [becoming a grease spot by midnight :unsure:] through the folly of thinking for myself was a very real hurdle to overcome.
~~
Yeah I agree – TWI's programs didn't give anything to participants that they didn't already have.. .and my 2 cents on leadership from some management book I've read – there's leaders [who have the vision, clearly see the goal] and then there's managers [who adopt the vision of the leader and plans & directs the work of those under them toward the goal]. Imho TWI had only one leader [the prez], all the programs were designed to develop managers.
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Twinky
Actually, as leadership training went, we were taught to become great followers (because you can't be a great leader without fisrt being a great follower). Therefore, we were okay to accept menial roles in the dishroom or wherever, because that was a way of following (Jesus washed feet, that was a menial servant job). A few in rez elder Corps got to coordinate in-rez twigs or otherwise got to boss a few others about in work crews. But one didn't get such a position without already being appropriate doormat leadership material.
At no point was there any teaching of leadership principles, vision, communicating one's vision, psychology, strategy or anything that might help become a more effective leader. Early Corps got some "counselling" training; nothing when I was in rez.
I think the greatest values from my time in rez are:
1. Meeting some awesome people, both in rez and recently on staff.
2. Seeing what good leadership IS NOT.
3. An opportunity to read the Bible quietly for myself, when I wouldn't have made that amount of time anyway.
I did meet some truly awesome and good-hearted people, who were great to be working with. But I think they would have been great leaders anyway, because they loved people and cared about their work crews.
I also met some people I avoided as much as possible. It was easy to spot some wannabes whilst in rez.
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skyrider
The corps program was not a leadership program.........it was a followship program.
Wierwille designed the way corps to follow orders, to promote pfal, to run classes PERIOD. Even after corps graduation, wierwille brought these corps grads -- limb/region leaders -- BACK TO HQ FOR MORE TRAINING INDOCTRINATION. This move accomplished two things: 1) it gutted them from any growing allegiance/following in their respective states and 2) wierwille wanted them to know that "he was still in charge"....ie they were to follow him or else!
Yet, I've long contested that many corps grads were bolting as early as 1978/79. The wierwille illusion was wearing thin, the mog-hype was unraveling, the corps program had become a doulos-slave camp. To stop the hemorraging of corps grads.....bullying and name-calling mounted on corps nights. Mandatory meetings and mandatory corps week attendance might have slowed the hemorraging....but it only, especially in hindsight, highlighted the obvious: wierwille was NOT who we thought he was.
Yes, many corps grads want martindale to be the fall guy for twi, but in truth.....it was wierwille. He baked the loaf with leaven......the absent Christ teachings, the "law of believing," the man of God of the universe allegiance, the elitist attitude, the household of zion, the truth like it hasn't been known since the first century, the new dynamic church cult, etc. etc.
When corps/clergy stopped following wierwille they were history....striken from twi listings, twi history, twi bookstores. Huh? Wasn't this about being Christ-like? Wasn't this about following scriptures? NOPE. This was about wierwille. This was about wierwille's legacy. This was about wierwille's cult.
The corps program WAS the leaven in the way ministry.....it accelerated the elistist and antagonistic fermentation in the whole loaf. It puffed up twi AGAINST the knowledge of God.
Wierwille's corps, for the most part, BECAME the image of wierwille.
<_<
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Broken Arrow
Hmmm...you make a good point. I'm going to have to think about this some more.
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penworks
Abilities and talents were NOT encouraged for any other reason but to serve Wierwille's goals, clothed in the verbiage that they were "moving The Word." Only there WAS NOT ANY WORD only VP's dogmas.
I agree. We were told we must carry VP's "heart for the Word and the ministry" to the world because he was only one man and could not do it all himself. Basically, we were to be PFAL puppets, etc.
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skyrider
T-Bone.....I agree. Wierwille latched onto "scriptural triggers" that he could use to mold his self-serving agendas such as Romans 12:2......"Be ye TRANSFORMED (yada, yada, yada)..." And, who better to lord over this transformation, to be acceptable......than wierwille???
Having moved away from the church-style setup, wierwille experimented with program after program in his narcisstic laboratory of interests. The WOW program, Fellow-Laborers, the College WOWs, Medical WOWs, the WOW Vet Program to 12 Cities, the Way Corps, the LEAD program.....all were to "transform" the individual, right?
In hindsight, it's apparent that NONE of wierwille's classes, seminars or programs were original. He copied and tweaked "his" classes and programs from multiple sources through the decades. Heck, even the "original radio broadcast program in 1942" was a copycat of another radio program that wierwille listened to each week. Men like JE Stiles, Oral Roberts, BG Leonard and others......gave a desperate wierwille inroads to lording over youthful transformations.
And, the corps indoctrination was the pinnacle of transformation, BECAUSE OF ITS ISOLATION. Removed for months on end from family, friends, newspapers.....all information was filtered through vpw-leadership that monitored all aspects of "spiritual transformation." Into the abyss of isolationism and cult control, wierwille masked his sexual predation all to no avail via the internet.
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leafytwiglet
My experience with Corps ... as a twiglet was that many of them did not understand what their role really should be as a leader...
They expected everyone to have the same level of commitment to the word(TWI DOCTRINE)as they had...
They had little patience for the regular believer... and felt that they were superior.
And when they ran a TWIG the people in the twig could tell they felt this way...
If they were lucky they had a regular person around to remind them that their position as a twig leader was not to be a superior but to be a loving example of how to study and practice the lifestyle of Christ and the Apostles...
(Yes I know this is contrary to what VP taught and I am darn sure it goes contrary to CM's teachings, I also know the one person I was closest to struggled with this and I am not sure but I suspect it was the reason we finally actually left..because the truth of what he was supposed to be went contrary to what Corps taught him to be)
Corps was incredibly divisive, but how could it be anything but that when you realize that the people in charge were teaching a bunch of lies... and were following the wrong person, both of them VP and CM were angry horrible men. there was no love for the people involved in TWI.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Wierwille had no training for creating his version of a theological seminary(though he attended 2 such institutions, and no, Pikes Peak does not count). Instead he merged a counterfeit seminary with Peace Corps, Salvation Army, and American military, particularly Marines. His WOW program was based on domestic evangelistic programs such as Jehovah's Witness and the Mormons(plus some Baptists) and Census field workers based on Navigators/Billy Graham Evangelistic Association's Christian Life and Witness Course(also used in Campus Crusaders for Christ and Fellowship of Christian Atheletes)and retitled as Witnessing and Undershepherding(see separate topic forum). His plagarized works were from Norman Vincent Peale, Robert Schuller, Albert Cliffe, Dale Carnegie, Ruben Archer Torrey, Albert Benjamin Simpson, Watchman Nee, certain books by Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Derek Prince, Ethelbert Bullinger, Ezzak William Kenyon, George Lamsa,Stiles, Leonard, etc. We were naive and led by a Satanic counterfeit to genuine Christianity. If only we all were given a second chance and make a different choice.
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