At age 64, my motto has become "I know that I know that I DON'T know"! Leaves a lot more room to fill a half-full bucket with objective, fact-based knowledge and affords one the luxury of not having to "be right" all the time, or having all the answers to human life and the human condition because "God revealed them to you." It allows for the mutual respect for human dignity and the miracle of life that all humans share.
Amen and AMEN! ... for all the reasons you mentioned.
When I was involved with TWI, was I brainwashed? To what extent? How?
Yes. I was brainwashed. I think an indicator was my use of the TWI jargon. I was brainwashed to the same extent as I used that jargon instead of my ordinary language. I was brainwashed through the voluntary renewing of my mind to the words of Wierwille in PFAL.
In PFAL we were taught to "Stand, no matter what happens." (paraphrased a bit) You can't do that without modifying your own behavior. In doing so, you become an active part of the procedure. That's what makes it so difficult to recognize.
In PFAL we were taught to "Stand, no matter what happens." (paraphrased a bit) You can't do that without modifying your own behavior. In doing so, you become an active part of the procedure. That's what makes it so difficult to recognize.
Good point. Self-reflection dropped to zero in many of our cases. When you are in a box, you don't realize it until it begins to split apart and you see specs of light peek through.
From all of our posts, it's apparent we are well aware of the cult problem. What are solutions?
Again, last night we watched a show on the History Channel titled, America's Book of Secrets. Season 2, Deadly Cults (first aired May 10, 2013). The segment on dangerous cults was pretty good.
Rick Ross, a cult examiner who is often an expert witness in courts, made the point, along with others who were interviewed, that our own freedoms in the US - freedom of speech, religion, and assembly, are what pave the way for cults to form legally...and easily.
To most of us, the following is not news: It is easy in our country to form a non-profit and say it is a new religion and boom, a new cult is born. And it enjoys the protections under the constitution that major well-known religions enjoy, including tax exemption status. That's one downside...
Note: Remember that Europeans endured the rough seas of the Atlantic to get to this promised land so they could express their beliefs and enjoy religious freedom and boy did they get it, for the most part. Some persecutions persisted for years until those freedoms were enforced. Give a nod here to Thomas Jefferson, etc.
Everyone goes through hard times in life, as Rick Ross pointed out on the Deadly Cults episode, and it is during those vulnerable times that a devoted follower of a dangerous cult comes along with ANSWERS. Those of us here at GSC can say AMEN to that!
We are all too familiar with the problem of dangerous cults.
What are solutions?
I wish I had one magic answer, don't you?
As far as I can tell, all we can do is try and head off seekers at the pass that leads into cult territory.
One way is to tell our stories. GSC has had some good results in opening peoples' eyes to TWI and to cults in general.
Let's not fear sharing our cautionary tales whenever and however we can. In my experience, as uncomfortable as that has been sometimes as a guest with groups of students in a classroom, in the end it is worth the embarrassment and sweaty armpits, and sometimes I get choked up. Usually I find people are thankful for the heads-up.
Maybe that's the best preventive measure we have available in our country. Tell our stories. Any time that is appropriate.
Otherwise, we'd be stuck with someone "at the top of government" I guess, who would have to decide which groups are destructive cults and which ones are not. Case in point, the Branch Davidians, as that History Channel show pointed out, was a "benign commune" until David Koresh showed up. He took over as prophet and we know the rest of that terrible, devastating story.
I suppose I am rambling, but I just want to say---don't ever stop talking, Grease spotters. Wish me luck for another presentation at another college soon. I need new deodorant!
At the age of 66, I am currently working on a masters degree in theological studies at the Anderson University School of Theology. The mission of the school is to form women and men for the ministry of biblical reconciliation. The religious organization behind the SOT was never fundamentalist, though they have a high view of scripture. Students come from various denominational backgrounds and are prepared to serve in whatever denominational structure they feel called to go into. Members of the faculty hold differing opinions on some major issues, but have agreed to disagree, viewing fellowship in Christ as more important than any kind of doctrinal "purity." Several of the younger professors are rising stars in the Society of Biblical Literature. I have been taking classes here since the fall of 2011. I have maybe a year or two to go depending on how my health holds out.
When I originally came here, I had to ask myself if I was going to reveal the time I spent with The Way International. Sometimes when people ask my background I give them my smarta$$ answer that I am a Free Range Baptist... I believe in baptism but not in cages... but generally I have been open with people about my involvement with TWI, both in class and in casual discussion. Far from being looked down on for having been involved with a cult, people seem to be fascinated by the perspective that I can offer to the conversation.
Right now, I am taking a class called "Spiritual Formation" which is odd because it's supposed to be one of the very first classes a student takes. All my classmates are in their very first semester, and I am in my what... ninth? One of the functions of the Spiritual Formation class is to encourage students to form habits that will help them succeed at the SOT... making budgets, managing time, participating in small prayer groups, telling stories, etc. ... many of the same things I was doing exactly 30 years ago in my first block in residence with the 16th Corps at Emporia.
I have to go take care of some unexpected things. This will tie back into cult prevention when I get the chance to continue...
In PFAL we were taught to "Stand, no matter what happens." (paraphrased a bit) You can't do that without modifying your own behavior. In doing so, you become an active part of the procedure. That's what makes it so difficult to recognize.
I wanted to add to this rather than edit...
Some might argue that, because you are the one who is modifying your own behavior, that the fault lies with you. (The old "gun to the head" routine) However, if you are basing your decisions on false or misleading information being fed to you, the fault must be shared by the deceiver.
Example: You buy a used car. One of the factors that motivates your choice is low mileage. You later find out the seller altered the actual mileage. It was your decision to buy the car but it was the seller's choice to bias the deciding factors.
So there I was... surrounded by multi-level marketeers... oh, wait... wrong story...
So here I am, at the end of my adult life, in school with a bunch of folks at the beginning of their adult lives, who are training to be church leaders. The school doesn't teach just one brand of church leadership, but leadership that can be applied across a wide spectrum of Wesleyan style organizations.
I have been forthcoming in my classes and casual discussion about being an aspiring cult leader when I was in my 30s. There has been one other Greasespotter in the student body while I've been there, and one of my classmates was born at Camp Gunnison the same block I was in residence there, and was raised in the post-fog-years TWI. His family is still with TWI.
It strikes me that Christianity became a cult when Theodosius made it the only official religion of the Roman Empire in 381 CE. That was when Christianity became "here's a church and here's the steeple... open the doors and see all the people." To the extent that church is a building people have to go to on Sunday morning, regular Christianity is still a cult. The difference between religion in the United States and in all previous countries is that in all the other countries there was only one cult authorized by the state. In the United States, everybody is free to start their own cults.
The School of Theology teaches that a "church" (or "faith community", or whatever you want to call it) is a web of developmental relationships indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That seems to me to be a workable definition. A cult is a web of developmental relationships, possibly, though not necessarily, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The difference between a church and a cult is that the leaders of a cult have hi-jacked the web of developmental relationships to serve their own hidden agenda. The purpose of the development is not to grow the individual members, but to make the individuals deployable to the leaders' agenda.
The tack I have taken on "teaching" cult prevention at the SOT (I am a student, not a professor, so my teaching has to be indirect) is that every one of the students there is going to be exposed to cult behavior and could very well become a cult-leader her or his own self. I don't think what I am telling them sinks in, but it might come back to their memory when they need it. The SOT is not fundamentalist, so there is no attitude of "we have the truth and nobody else does." Sometimes the SOT has taken heat from the parent denomination because the SOT is not as doctrinaire as they would like for the school to be.
The only general cult preventive I can think of is to teach people how to think critically, and to impress on them that critical thinking cannot be departed from without running grave risks. Our culture does NOT teach critical thinking. Both major political parties are cults, even though they are political rather than religious. The political/academic/media complex drives everybody into a cult mentality, one way or another...
It sounds like people who are isolated already are the easiest targets?
Bol, I think many people who get involved in cults are looking for love, and acceptance. I know I was; my family life sucked when I was a kid. When I got involved in TWI in 1978, I felt loved, and accepted for the first time in my life. What a glorious feeling it was! Perhaps if I had grown up in a loving, and kind family, I would never have felt the need to join TWI.
For several years, I worked as an RN in the OR at Robert Wood Johnson Hospital in NJ. I had the opportunity to meet a very diverse, highly educated and trained compassionate group of great human beings. I worked with a well-renowned vascular surgeon who was from Pakistan. He liked having me in his OR because we enjoyed interesting conversations while working together. He was a devout Muslim. I am not.
He often said that the best thing he ever did in his life was leave his native Pakistan and come here to the USA. He felt the USA was the greatest country in the world to live in. I asked him what made him feel and think that. His answer was swift and emphatic. "It is the genius of our Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, and especially the first amendment. To protect the FREEDOMS of religion, and the press, and the rights to peaceably assemble and to demand the redress of our grievances, is to me, the genius of our Bill of Rights. In Pakistan, these freedoms do not exist. And the reason given as to why they don't is because our dominant religion, which is also the religion of the state, refuses to accept anything else and thinks that the dominant religion should determine their laws and freedoms, and that religion should should underpin all government laws and determine societal conduct. That enslaves us all. The genius of keeping the State and all religions separate is what makes us the greatest country in the world.
As a citizen by birth, born, raised, and educated in the USA, I realized how much of our founding governing documents I daily take for granted. And, when I saw how much they meant to a very talented man who felt so strongly about them that he gave up a very lucrative and important position in Pakistan to emigrate to the USA, to enjoy those freedoms.
I agree with Broken Arrow: "What you are suggesting has been attempted and it didn't work so well. It was during the middle ages and it resulted in inquisitions. It came to where if you didn't agree with the king or authority you risked persecution, or even execution. Then a different authority would gain power and they would persecute for different reasons. There was no freedom for the individual and the carnage was much much worse. I would suggest that tyranny exists where dissent is forbidden and governments as a rule to not like dissent." Indeed, imo, tyranny does exist where dissent is forbidden. I also think our pal Rocky has offered some tremendous information and identified some books which are spot on in describing, exposing, and defining aspects common to cult groups of any kind. Thanks Rock!
I agree that attempting to legislate cults out of existence would be tyranny. Most recent horrifying example to me was the spate of RFRAs that were introduced in state legislatures dominated by Christian Dominionists and political conservatives leaning to the far right. RFRA= religious freedom restoration acts, such as in IN, AR, and a number of other "red" states. These were pushed under the guise of supporting and defending the first amendment rights of individual churches and their members, which they interpreted as giving them the right to discriminate against the LGBTQ communities in their states by refusing them services, or products available to the general public simply because of their sexual orientation or "beliefs and practices". I was outraged by these blatant attempts at legalizing religious bigotry through laws "guaranteeing" freedom to discriminate against anyone whose beliefs do not line up with what these various religionists believe to be necessary behavior on the part of a certain group of citizens in order to allow these "freedom fighters" to practice their faith and follow their consciences by totally discriminating against the members of the LGBTQ communities in their states because they do not live their lives according to the dictates of the lawmakers interpretation of the Christiam religions' doctrines or practices. Totally opposite the First Amendement guarantees of freedom of religion they claim to be protecting by these bigoted, unconstitutional laws! Sounds like the Pakistan Dr. Khan left!
That same First Amendment they claim the protection or restoration of by legalized bigotry, also protects our right to the freedom of critical thinking and freedom of speech and freedom of the press and the right to peaceable assemble and demand redress of our grievances. ALL of those together allow for peaceful dissent, rational, uncensored dialogue and informed, unrestricted, political debate. In other words, they protect us from TYRRANY, which was one of the fundamental causes of our Revolutionary War. Imo, it is sad that a talented and highly educated naturalized citizen from Palistan has more love and respect for our Constitution than many of our own, Ametican born "patriots"! Tyranny for any reason is WRONG, and unacceptable, at least in the USA. The right to free speech, an unfettered press, to believe what we choose to believe and think what we choose to think, and to freely and openly dissent and debate with those who disagree, must NEVER BE ABRIDGED for any reason, philisophy, or religious ideology. NEVER!
DWBH, I think of all the posts I have ever read here at the GSC, your's may be the best one I have ever read. Thanks for posting this; I need to read it a few more times to really absorb it.
I don't really think we are in disagreement on most of this. It is true I made the decision to do many of the things I did in TWI, including taking "the class" and entering FellowLaborers.
At the local level, it was much easier to think for yourself. If you didn't want to do this or that, you simply didn't do it. But, once you became entrenched in a so-called training program (freely avail yourself), however, everything changed. You didn't make most of the decisions, they were made for you, what time you awoke, when you slept, what, when and how much you ate, who you could socialize with, who you could date (and ultimately marry.... this one was implied , not directly ordered.), what disagreements you could vocalize without repercussions, what creative impulses you could act on and so on. If you failed to comply you were out the door. And, they painted a very, VERY dismal picture of what your life would be if you ever left. (a grease spot by midnight)
When you're sleep deprived and hungry most of the time, for long periods of time, you begin to lose your desire for confrontation. You just want to do whatever makes the situation more bearable. Instead of looking at the big picture, you look at life and the future from a very narrow perspective.
Now, maybe that's not what brainwashing is. I don't know. I do know it's no way to live unless you can delude yourself into believing that compliance is the answer.
Way, you did an excellent job of describing Boot Camp!!
Yes Steve, but it still boils down to following "a" guy who has had outrageous claims made on his behalf that have yet to be proven to have actually happened.
Tzaia, what a polite way of saying that VBW was full of caca!
Hi everyone. Getting back to the topic of this thread, Cult Prevention, I'd like to add a couple of things.
I think we can all agree that cult prevention is no easy task, especially in the U.S. where we have freedom of religion and certain constitutional protections, and apparent ease in creating a cult disguised as a non-profit organization BUT I think we can try. We must. Too much damage in the name of God is done by cults, right?
One way is warning others about destructive cults so they don't get mixed up in them, like having a place like this. Yay!
As I understand it, GSC was created for former TWI followers to share their stories and help each other understand The Way phenomenon and recover more mental and emotional health. At least that was my impression. So, I just want to say cheers to the people behind the scenes, i.e. moderators, etc. who keep the café open.
Maybe because I was recruited to TWI as a teenager in college I have a hunch that young people need more education about religion so they recognized a sales pitch for a cult when they hear it.
I don't mean education IN a religion but ABOUT religion and its power. So, I'd like to recommend a book by Stephen Prothero titled Religious Literacy: What Every American Needs to Know--And Doesn't. I wish I'd read that when I was 18 years old!
Prothero is a Christian and a scholar who writes in a way the general public can enjoy. The cover of the book states, "Provocative and timely...combines a lively history of the rise and fall of American religious literacy with a set of proposed remedies." - The Washington Post.
I am a firm believer in reading good educational material like Prothero's to help me, as well as poetry, fiction, newspapers, whatever...without censorship.
Full disclosure -- I am no longer a Christian, but an agnostic with a Buddhist sort of spirituality. I say that because I like people to know I am not a defender of any kind of "doctrine," but a defender of free inquiry and free speech, which is why I like to visit (and lurk at) this site. While in TWI, those freedoms were not respected, as least in my experience. I paid a high price.
So, does anyone else have a book they can recommend or other actions we can take to address cult prevention besides keeping GSC open and sharing our experiences whenever appropriate?
Cheers,
Penworks
Penworks, interesting post. I think many of us paid a "high price" for our involvement in TWI; some perhaps more than others. I think I was fortune in that I left unscarred; I know some of the women, and children, were brutally abused by others members of the cult. If I could turn time backwards, I would love to have VPW, and others pay for their crimes; I know that isn't possible so I will have to let go, and let God deal with them.
In PFAL we were taught to "Stand, no matter what happens." (paraphrased a bit) You can't do that without modifying your own behavior. In doing so, you become an active part of the procedure. That's what makes it so difficult to recognize.
On 10/24/2015 at 8:26 AM, penworks said:
Good point. Self-reflection dropped to zero in many of our cases. When you are in a box, you don't realize it until it begins to split apart and you see specs of light peek through.
From all of our posts, it's apparent we are well aware of the cult problem. What are solutions?
Again, last night we watched a show on the History Channel titled, America's Book of Secrets. Season 2, Deadly Cults (first aired May 10, 2013). The segment on dangerous cults was pretty good.
Rick Ross, a cult examiner who is often an expert witness in courts, made the point, along with others who were interviewed, that our own freedoms in the US - freedom of speech, religion, and assembly, are what pave the way for cults to form legally...and easily.
To most of us, the following is not news: It is easy in our country to form a non-profit and say it is a new religion and boom, a new cult is born. And it enjoys the protections under the constitution that major well-known religions enjoy, including tax exemption status. That's one downside...
Note: Remember that Europeans endured the rough seas of the Atlantic to get to this promised land so they could express their beliefs and enjoy religious freedom and boy did they get it, for the most part. Some persecutions persisted for years until those freedoms were enforced. Give a nod here to Thomas Jefferson, etc.
Everyone goes through hard times in life, as Rick Ross pointed out on the Deadly Cults episode, and it is during those vulnerable times that a devoted follower of a dangerous cult comes along with ANSWERS. Those of us here at GSC can say AMEN to that!
We are all too familiar with the problem of dangerous cults.
What are solutions?
I wish I had one magic answer, don't you?
As far as I can tell, all we can do is try and head off seekers at the pass that leads into cult territory.
One way is to tell our stories. GSC has had some good results in opening peoples' eyes to TWI and to cults in general.
Let's not fear sharing our cautionary tales whenever and however we can. In my experience, as uncomfortable as that has been sometimes as a guest with groups of students in a classroom, in the end it is worth the embarrassment and sweaty armpits, and sometimes I get choked up. Usually I find people are thankful for the heads-up.
Maybe that's the best preventive measure we have available in our country. Tell our stories. Any time that is appropriate.
Otherwise, we'd be stuck with someone "at the top of government" I guess, who would have to decide which groups are destructive cults and which ones are not. Case in point, the Branch Davidians, as that History Channel show pointed out, was a "benign commune" until David Koresh showed up. He took over as prophet and we know the rest of that terrible, devastating story.
I suppose I am rambling, but I just want to say---don't ever stop talking, Grease spotters. Wish me luck for another presentation at another college soon. I need new deodorant!
Enjoy your weekend.
Penworks
On 10/24/2015 at 0:13 PM, waysider said:
I wanted to add to this rather than edit...
Some might argue that, because you are the one who is modifying your own behavior, that the fault lies with you. (The old "gun to the head" routine) However, if you are basing your decisions on false or misleading information being fed to you, the fault must be shared by the deceiver.
Example: You buy a used car. One of the factors that motivates your choice is low mileage. You later find out the seller altered the actual mileage. It was your decision to buy the car but it was the seller's choice to bias the deciding factors.
Great points Waysider & Penworks !
Ya know, this is one of the most fascinating things about my cult experience – and perhaps the driving force that compels me to keep coming to Grease Spot…It’s almost like a compulsive obsession I have - to better understand cult tactics and how and why I fell for them…Grease Spot uses a two prong approach – here posters not only examine & expose cult tactics, doctrine, practice, etc. but also reveal the weaknesses in their own thought process whereby they bought into the cult hook, line and sinker. In my humble opinion, this two prong approach is critical to one’s recovery from cult involvement.
I have been involved in all aspects of security for some 38 years now and think a similar two prong approach is necessary when addressing any security concerns. A competent security consultant will not only keep up on the latest motives & methods of the bad guys but will also assess existing strengths and weaknesses of their client...Perhaps an axiom for security concerns holds true for cult prevention as well – good honest people are to be ever vigilant…whereas the bad guys are always looking for where vigilance is low or non-existent.
When it first dawned on me that I had been deceived by wierwille & company – it was a little overwhelming and perhaps a bit of a shock. Almost like a bank president wondering in disbelief “how could those thieves pull off this huge heist with all the security measures I have in place?” But I think it takes a lot of time…self-reflection…honesty and humility to come to grips with the fact that it was partly an “inside job” - wierwille could not have pulled it off without some inadvertent cooperation on my part. Like Waysider was explaining – wierwille sold us a bill of goods – and we paid dearly for that in time, money & resources…It’s like some weird coordinated effort of wierwille’s disarmingly charming attack on our weak or non-existent critical thinking skills.
When it first dawned on me that I had been deceived by wierwille & company – it was a little overwhelming and perhaps a bit of a shock. Almost like a bank president wondering in disbelief “how could those thieves pull off this huge heist with all the security measures I have in place?” But I think it takes a lot of time…self-reflection…honesty and humility to come to grips with the fact that it was partly an “inside job” - wierwille could not have pulled it off without some inadvertent cooperation on my part. Like Waysider was explaining – wierwille sold us a bill of goods – and we paid dearly for that in time, money & resources…It’s like some weird coordinated effort of wierwille’s disarmingly charming attack on our weak or non-existent critical thinking skills.
Good post, T-Bone.
I'd add that even if we had quite well-developed critical thinking skills, these were also constantly undermined by the allegation that we weren't spiritual enough to understand... and we weren't meek enough to receive spiritual information... and (esp in rez WC) that we were in training and shouldn't expect to know everything but learn to wait on the Lord... blah blah. I saw information/plans deliberately withheld from those involved, simply to teach them to trust leadership. Yeah, a great confidence booster.
When it first dawned on me that I had been deceived by wierwille & company – it was a little overwhelming and perhaps a bit of a shock. Almost like a bank president wondering in disbelief “how could those thieves pull off this huge heist with all the security measures I have in place?” But I think it takes a lot of time…self-reflection…honesty and humility to come to grips with the fact that it was partly an “inside job” - wierwille could not have pulled it off without some inadvertent cooperation on my part. Like Waysider was explaining – wierwille sold us a bill of goods – and we paid dearly for that in time, money & resources…It’s like some weird coordinated effort of wierwille’s disarmingly charming attack on our weak or non-existent critical thinking skills.
And,.........some "inadvertent cooperation" from his entourage......i.e. enablers.
Bodyguards, valets, yes-men, swooning fawning admirers.........adding to the top marquee in town. Everyone, one and all.....come early, get your front row seats and expect to be excited......"Gawd's word is going to be delivered on a silver platter." This is the spiritual epicenter and no one gets missed.
The hype and hoopla was at every class, every event. Promotion, promotion, promotion.........everyone was selling the soap.
ALL of wierwille's long-standing enablers had their fiefdoms.......Harry was the successful business icon, Ermal was the quiet construction manager who listened to "pappy," George jess was the tree planter and sower of the seed, Howard was the "greatest layman in the church," Don was the educator, Emogene had her fiefdom in The Way's Bookstore, Wanda helped Mrs. W. with Guest Housing and Interior Decorating......and Mrs. W. was the epitome of "The Way's virtuous woman." Add the bus drivers/valets, security team personnel, corps coordinators, research team, roa administrators, musicians, architects, etc.......and The Entourage was a captivating package !!
YET...........in all my years, I never saw any of the top-tier enablers step out and do any of the "Big Six" manifestations. Not one.
I'd add that even if we had quite well-developed critical thinking skills, ....
Reflecting back myself, I find that many like myself got involved in the Way when we were either teenagers or no older than say 23 years old.
How many teenagers in this day and time, or young adults to the age of 23 do you know that have what you would describe as well-developed critical thinking skills? I know I certainly would not describe myself that way looking back at that time. Maybe Jesus did, but i'm not like him in so many ways.
This is not even talking about those indoctrinated second gen Way people who went to childrens fellowship. They all probably had to unlearn some thinking skills first before delving into developing critical thinking after leaving or more likely they just finally realized your average person in the world is going to treat you better than your average interaction with a Way "believer".
Then the Way teaching pattern started out on the small stuff - 4 Crucified, how many died with Jesus / angels can dance on the head of a pin, etc. etc. then from there VP's homiletics led to how can you trust them on the eternal life stuff? Very slick. In this I see the basis for the small-step compromises I accepted over years.
I would actually say that the Way preys on the lack of well-developed critical thinking skills.
Learning critical thinking skills after the fact is a great tool. I don't believe it can be taught to teenagers and idealistic early 20 somethings effectively. It won't prevent much unless a specific cult is taught about. Many joined TWI after being warned.
How is it Wierwille did what he did without breaking any laws? (I assume he broke some) He ran classes. No licence? No FDA warning label? No citations?
How is it Wierwille did what he did without breaking any laws? (I assume he broke some)
Well, im sure he broke many, especially considering craig and his co conspirators simply followed what wierwille set in motion. Also, twi being 501c3, brings up private inurement. Vic and the gang spent donations on pwrsonal use like the money was given to them to burn.
Reflecting back myself, I find that many like myself got involved in the Way when we were either teenagers or no older than say 23 years old.
How many teenagers in this day and time, or young adults to the age of 23 do you know that have what you would describe as well-developed critical thinking skills? I know I certainly would not describe myself that way looking back at that time. Maybe Jesus did, but i'm not like him in so many ways.
This is not even talking about those indoctrinated second gen Way people who went to childrens fellowship. They all probably had to unlearn some thinking skills first before delving into developing critical thinking after leaving or more likely they just finally realized your average person in the world is going to treat you better than your average interaction with a Way "believer".
Then the Way teaching pattern started out on the small stuff - 4 Crucified, how many died with Jesus / angels can dance on the head of a pin, etc. etc. then from there VP's homiletics led to how can you trust them on the eternal life stuff? Very slick. In this I see the basis for the small-step compromises I accepted over years.
I would actually say that the Way preys on the lack of well-developed critical thinking skills.
Chock, honey you are so right; TWI did prey on young people who lacked critical thinking skills. My thinking skills, and my lack of self-esteem, made me an easy mark for VPW, and company. In college, I started to develop my critical thinking-skills, and realised a lot of what TWI taught was garbage, and started to live my life for myself; that did not go over well with the local leadership. Now I understand why TWI didn't want people to go on for higher education; they wanted people to think in terms of what was best for The Ministry, not was best for the individual.
At the age of 66, I am currently working on a masters degree in theological studies at the Anderson University School of Theology. The mission of the school is to form women and men for the ministry of biblical reconciliation. The religious organization behind the SOT was never fundamentalist, though they have a high view of scripture. Students come from various denominational backgrounds and are prepared to serve in whatever denominational structure they feel called to go into. Members of the faculty hold differing opinions on some major issues, but have agreed to disagree, viewing fellowship in Christ as more important than any kind of doctrinal "purity." Several of the younger professors are rising stars in the Society of Biblical Literature. I have been taking classes here since the fall of 2011. I have maybe a year or two to go depending on how my health holds out.
When I originally came here, I had to ask myself if I was going to reveal the time I spent with The Way International. Sometimes when people ask my background I give them my smarta$$ answer that I am a Free Range Baptist... I believe in baptism but not in cages... but generally I have been open with people about my involvement with TWI, both in class and in casual discussion. Far from being looked down on for having been involved with a cult, people seem to be fascinated by the perspective that I can offer to the conversation.
Right now, I am taking a class called "Spiritual Formation" which is odd because it's supposed to be one of the very first classes a student takes. All my classmates are in their very first semester, and I am in my what... ninth? One of the functions of the Spiritual Formation class is to encourage students to form habits that will help them succeed at the SOT... making budgets, managing time, participating in small prayer groups, telling stories, etc. ... many of the same things I was doing exactly 30 years ago in my first block in residence with the 16th Corps at Emporia.
I have to go take care of some unexpected things. This will tie back into cult prevention when I get the chance to continue...
Love,
Steve
Steve, the staff, and students are allowed to disagree with each other??!! Obviously, most of them were not involved in TWI; if you disagreed with leadership, you were sharply reproved for voicing your opinions.
YET...........in all my years, I never saw any of the top-tier enablers step out and do any of the "Big Six" manifestations. Not one.
Now wait just a minute ! What about the time - and I was there too - what about the time Ted collapsed on stage and Craig was on the scene "booms quick" ministering to Ted, praying for his heart - after which Ted said softly to him "Craig, it's my knee" .... uhm....errr....ok never mind, Skyrider I see your point.
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Rocky
Preach it, brother!
skyrider
And,.........some "inadvertent cooperation" from his entourage......i.e. enablers. Bodyguards, valets, yes-men, swooning fawning admirers.........adding to the top marquee in town. Everyone, one
Tzaia
MRAP - there are a fair number of people here who fell for TWI hook, line, and sinker. They gave years - many times the best years - of their lives only to be unceremoniously dumped at the first quest
Rocky
Amen and AMEN! ... for all the reasons you mentioned.
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Steve Lortz
When I was involved with TWI, was I brainwashed? To what extent? How?
Yes. I was brainwashed. I think an indicator was my use of the TWI jargon. I was brainwashed to the same extent as I used that jargon instead of my ordinary language. I was brainwashed through the voluntary renewing of my mind to the words of Wierwille in PFAL.
Love,
Steve
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waysider
In PFAL we were taught to "Stand, no matter what happens." (paraphrased a bit) You can't do that without modifying your own behavior. In doing so, you become an active part of the procedure. That's what makes it so difficult to recognize.
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penworks
Good point. Self-reflection dropped to zero in many of our cases. When you are in a box, you don't realize it until it begins to split apart and you see specs of light peek through.
From all of our posts, it's apparent we are well aware of the cult problem. What are solutions?
Again, last night we watched a show on the History Channel titled, America's Book of Secrets. Season 2, Deadly Cults (first aired May 10, 2013). The segment on dangerous cults was pretty good.
Deadly cults
Rick Ross, a cult examiner who is often an expert witness in courts, made the point, along with others who were interviewed, that our own freedoms in the US - freedom of speech, religion, and assembly, are what pave the way for cults to form legally...and easily.
Rick Ross, cult awareness site
To most of us, the following is not news: It is easy in our country to form a non-profit and say it is a new religion and boom, a new cult is born. And it enjoys the protections under the constitution that major well-known religions enjoy, including tax exemption status. That's one downside...
Note: Remember that Europeans endured the rough seas of the Atlantic to get to this promised land so they could express their beliefs and enjoy religious freedom and boy did they get it, for the most part. Some persecutions persisted for years until those freedoms were enforced. Give a nod here to Thomas Jefferson, etc.
Everyone goes through hard times in life, as Rick Ross pointed out on the Deadly Cults episode, and it is during those vulnerable times that a devoted follower of a dangerous cult comes along with ANSWERS. Those of us here at GSC can say AMEN to that!
We are all too familiar with the problem of dangerous cults.
What are solutions?
I wish I had one magic answer, don't you?
As far as I can tell, all we can do is try and head off seekers at the pass that leads into cult territory.
One way is to tell our stories. GSC has had some good results in opening peoples' eyes to TWI and to cults in general.
Let's not fear sharing our cautionary tales whenever and however we can. In my experience, as uncomfortable as that has been sometimes as a guest with groups of students in a classroom, in the end it is worth the embarrassment and sweaty armpits, and sometimes I get choked up. Usually I find people are thankful for the heads-up.
Maybe that's the best preventive measure we have available in our country. Tell our stories. Any time that is appropriate.
Otherwise, we'd be stuck with someone "at the top of government" I guess, who would have to decide which groups are destructive cults and which ones are not. Case in point, the Branch Davidians, as that History Channel show pointed out, was a "benign commune" until David Koresh showed up. He took over as prophet and we know the rest of that terrible, devastating story.
I suppose I am rambling, but I just want to say---don't ever stop talking, Grease spotters. Wish me luck for another presentation at another college soon. I need new deodorant!
Enjoy your weekend.
Penworks
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DontWorryBeHappy
Good luck Charlene!
Remember.....in a pinch, Pathouli Oil never fails! It's a throwback thing.
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Steve Lortz
At the age of 66, I am currently working on a masters degree in theological studies at the Anderson University School of Theology. The mission of the school is to form women and men for the ministry of biblical reconciliation. The religious organization behind the SOT was never fundamentalist, though they have a high view of scripture. Students come from various denominational backgrounds and are prepared to serve in whatever denominational structure they feel called to go into. Members of the faculty hold differing opinions on some major issues, but have agreed to disagree, viewing fellowship in Christ as more important than any kind of doctrinal "purity." Several of the younger professors are rising stars in the Society of Biblical Literature. I have been taking classes here since the fall of 2011. I have maybe a year or two to go depending on how my health holds out.
When I originally came here, I had to ask myself if I was going to reveal the time I spent with The Way International. Sometimes when people ask my background I give them my smarta$$ answer that I am a Free Range Baptist... I believe in baptism but not in cages... but generally I have been open with people about my involvement with TWI, both in class and in casual discussion. Far from being looked down on for having been involved with a cult, people seem to be fascinated by the perspective that I can offer to the conversation.
Right now, I am taking a class called "Spiritual Formation" which is odd because it's supposed to be one of the very first classes a student takes. All my classmates are in their very first semester, and I am in my what... ninth? One of the functions of the Spiritual Formation class is to encourage students to form habits that will help them succeed at the SOT... making budgets, managing time, participating in small prayer groups, telling stories, etc. ... many of the same things I was doing exactly 30 years ago in my first block in residence with the 16th Corps at Emporia.
I have to go take care of some unexpected things. This will tie back into cult prevention when I get the chance to continue...
Love,
Steve
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waysider
I wanted to add to this rather than edit...
Some might argue that, because you are the one who is modifying your own behavior, that the fault lies with you. (The old "gun to the head" routine) However, if you are basing your decisions on false or misleading information being fed to you, the fault must be shared by the deceiver.
Example: You buy a used car. One of the factors that motivates your choice is low mileage. You later find out the seller altered the actual mileage. It was your decision to buy the car but it was the seller's choice to bias the deciding factors.
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Rocky
Unlike many internet quotes, this one actually has a source citation, at the linked page.
This, of course, for those willing to apply some critical analysis, goes to wierwille's claims of authority in the PLAF class...
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Steve Lortz
So there I was... surrounded by multi-level marketeers... oh, wait... wrong story...
So here I am, at the end of my adult life, in school with a bunch of folks at the beginning of their adult lives, who are training to be church leaders. The school doesn't teach just one brand of church leadership, but leadership that can be applied across a wide spectrum of Wesleyan style organizations.
I have been forthcoming in my classes and casual discussion about being an aspiring cult leader when I was in my 30s. There has been one other Greasespotter in the student body while I've been there, and one of my classmates was born at Camp Gunnison the same block I was in residence there, and was raised in the post-fog-years TWI. His family is still with TWI.
It strikes me that Christianity became a cult when Theodosius made it the only official religion of the Roman Empire in 381 CE. That was when Christianity became "here's a church and here's the steeple... open the doors and see all the people." To the extent that church is a building people have to go to on Sunday morning, regular Christianity is still a cult. The difference between religion in the United States and in all previous countries is that in all the other countries there was only one cult authorized by the state. In the United States, everybody is free to start their own cults.
The School of Theology teaches that a "church" (or "faith community", or whatever you want to call it) is a web of developmental relationships indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That seems to me to be a workable definition. A cult is a web of developmental relationships, possibly, though not necessarily, indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The difference between a church and a cult is that the leaders of a cult have hi-jacked the web of developmental relationships to serve their own hidden agenda. The purpose of the development is not to grow the individual members, but to make the individuals deployable to the leaders' agenda.
The tack I have taken on "teaching" cult prevention at the SOT (I am a student, not a professor, so my teaching has to be indirect) is that every one of the students there is going to be exposed to cult behavior and could very well become a cult-leader her or his own self. I don't think what I am telling them sinks in, but it might come back to their memory when they need it. The SOT is not fundamentalist, so there is no attitude of "we have the truth and nobody else does." Sometimes the SOT has taken heat from the parent denomination because the SOT is not as doctrinaire as they would like for the school to be.
The only general cult preventive I can think of is to teach people how to think critically, and to impress on them that critical thinking cannot be departed from without running grave risks. Our culture does NOT teach critical thinking. Both major political parties are cults, even though they are political rather than religious. The political/academic/media complex drives everybody into a cult mentality, one way or another...
All for now,
Love,
Steve
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Grace Valerie Claire
Bol, I think many people who get involved in cults are looking for love, and acceptance. I know I was; my family life sucked when I was a kid. When I got involved in TWI in 1978, I felt loved, and accepted for the first time in my life. What a glorious feeling it was! Perhaps if I had grown up in a loving, and kind family, I would never have felt the need to join TWI.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, I love your posts; you seem to have your feet on the ground, and your head on straight. Just my two cents!
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Grace Valerie Claire
DWBH, I think of all the posts I have ever read here at the GSC, your's may be the best one I have ever read. Thanks for posting this; I need to read it a few more times to really absorb it.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Way, you did an excellent job of describing Boot Camp!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Tzaia, what a polite way of saying that VBW was full of caca!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Penworks, interesting post. I think many of us paid a "high price" for our involvement in TWI; some perhaps more than others. I think I was fortune in that I left unscarred; I know some of the women, and children, were brutally abused by others members of the cult. If I could turn time backwards, I would love to have VPW, and others pay for their crimes; I know that isn't possible so I will have to let go, and let God deal with them.
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T-Bone
Great points Waysider & Penworks !
Ya know, this is one of the most fascinating things about my cult experience – and perhaps the driving force that compels me to keep coming to Grease Spot…It’s almost like a compulsive obsession I have - to better understand cult tactics and how and why I fell for them…Grease Spot uses a two prong approach – here posters not only examine & expose cult tactics, doctrine, practice, etc. but also reveal the weaknesses in their own thought process whereby they bought into the cult hook, line and sinker. In my humble opinion, this two prong approach is critical to one’s recovery from cult involvement.
I have been involved in all aspects of security for some 38 years now and think a similar two prong approach is necessary when addressing any security concerns. A competent security consultant will not only keep up on the latest motives & methods of the bad guys but will also assess existing strengths and weaknesses of their client...Perhaps an axiom for security concerns holds true for cult prevention as well – good honest people are to be ever vigilant…whereas the bad guys are always looking for where vigilance is low or non-existent.
When it first dawned on me that I had been deceived by wierwille & company – it was a little overwhelming and perhaps a bit of a shock. Almost like a bank president wondering in disbelief “how could those thieves pull off this huge heist with all the security measures I have in place?” But I think it takes a lot of time…self-reflection…honesty and humility to come to grips with the fact that it was partly an “inside job” - wierwille could not have pulled it off without some inadvertent cooperation on my part. Like Waysider was explaining – wierwille sold us a bill of goods – and we paid dearly for that in time, money & resources…It’s like some weird coordinated effort of wierwille’s disarmingly charming attack on our weak or non-existent critical thinking skills.
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Twinky
Good post, T-Bone.
I'd add that even if we had quite well-developed critical thinking skills, these were also constantly undermined by the allegation that we weren't spiritual enough to understand... and we weren't meek enough to receive spiritual information... and (esp in rez WC) that we were in training and shouldn't expect to know everything but learn to wait on the Lord... blah blah. I saw information/plans deliberately withheld from those involved, simply to teach them to trust leadership. Yeah, a great confidence booster.
Save your questions till the end, folks.
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skyrider
And,.........some "inadvertent cooperation" from his entourage......i.e. enablers.
Bodyguards, valets, yes-men, swooning fawning admirers.........adding to the top marquee in town. Everyone, one and all.....come early, get your front row seats and expect to be excited......"Gawd's word is going to be delivered on a silver platter." This is the spiritual epicenter and no one gets missed.
The hype and hoopla was at every class, every event. Promotion, promotion, promotion.........everyone was selling the soap.
ALL of wierwille's long-standing enablers had their fiefdoms.......Harry was the successful business icon, Ermal was the quiet construction manager who listened to "pappy," George jess was the tree planter and sower of the seed, Howard was the "greatest layman in the church," Don was the educator, Emogene had her fiefdom in The Way's Bookstore, Wanda helped Mrs. W. with Guest Housing and Interior Decorating......and Mrs. W. was the epitome of "The Way's virtuous woman." Add the bus drivers/valets, security team personnel, corps coordinators, research team, roa administrators, musicians, architects, etc.......and The Entourage was a captivating package !!
YET...........in all my years, I never saw any of the top-tier enablers step out and do any of the "Big Six" manifestations. Not one.
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chockfull
Reflecting back myself, I find that many like myself got involved in the Way when we were either teenagers or no older than say 23 years old.
How many teenagers in this day and time, or young adults to the age of 23 do you know that have what you would describe as well-developed critical thinking skills? I know I certainly would not describe myself that way looking back at that time. Maybe Jesus did, but i'm not like him in so many ways.
This is not even talking about those indoctrinated second gen Way people who went to childrens fellowship. They all probably had to unlearn some thinking skills first before delving into developing critical thinking after leaving or more likely they just finally realized your average person in the world is going to treat you better than your average interaction with a Way "believer".
Then the Way teaching pattern started out on the small stuff - 4 Crucified, how many died with Jesus / angels can dance on the head of a pin, etc. etc. then from there VP's homiletics led to how can you trust them on the eternal life stuff? Very slick. In this I see the basis for the small-step compromises I accepted over years.
I would actually say that the Way preys on the lack of well-developed critical thinking skills.
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Bolshevik
Learning critical thinking skills after the fact is a great tool. I don't believe it can be taught to teenagers and idealistic early 20 somethings effectively. It won't prevent much unless a specific cult is taught about. Many joined TWI after being warned.
How is it Wierwille did what he did without breaking any laws? (I assume he broke some) He ran classes. No licence? No FDA warning label? No citations?
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OldSkool
Well, im sure he broke many, especially considering craig and his co conspirators simply followed what wierwille set in motion. Also, twi being 501c3, brings up private inurement. Vic and the gang spent donations on pwrsonal use like the money was given to them to burn.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, honey you are so right; TWI did prey on young people who lacked critical thinking skills. My thinking skills, and my lack of self-esteem, made me an easy mark for VPW, and company. In college, I started to develop my critical thinking-skills, and realised a lot of what TWI taught was garbage, and started to live my life for myself; that did not go over well with the local leadership. Now I understand why TWI didn't want people to go on for higher education; they wanted people to think in terms of what was best for The Ministry, not was best for the individual.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Steve, the staff, and students are allowed to disagree with each other??!! Obviously, most of them were not involved in TWI; if you disagreed with leadership, you were sharply reproved for voicing your opinions.
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T-Bone
Now wait just a minute ! What about the time - and I was there too - what about the time Ted collapsed on stage and Craig was on the scene "booms quick" ministering to Ted, praying for his heart - after which Ted said softly to him "Craig, it's my knee" .... uhm....errr....ok never mind, Skyrider I see your point.
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