Mike - my words and attitudes do not portray anyone as a simpleton in any way, harshly or otherwise. Especially this anonymous group of grads you claim to represent. So it sounds like your motives for posting here are to prove a point to some lurkers who feel they cant defend themselves on an internet forum. As for lucid and constant argument i would say your arguments are not constantly lucid.
As for critiscism and counter argument. I locked horns with the board of directors for close to a year and a half in what panned out to me having to do what was necessary to extricate my family from this cult. Ive endured more than my fair share of critiscism and argument, probably enough for both of us. U say u want to face off with TWI leaders in writing...thats cool. Ive done it face to face, on many occasions. You know what i encountered? One manipulation tactic after another. They even tried to pit me and my wife against each other. They sought any angle to get something they could accuse me with. Im not sure you would have found my experiences fun. But do try writing but know up front they'd never write back. Cheers!
Apologies again, in that I meant a plural "you" there, in the possible portraying them as simpletons. And you may be right about lurkers. I do think about them, in the back of my mind, and I know what they desire to get posted at times.. But I was thinking most of the many non-vocal grads out there who got blessed, and some of who still get blessed by PFAL books. They are not stupid dolts, getting blessed by garbage. The evil is not as simple as it's presented here.
As for talking to HQ, some of that I do right here, knowing they probably still do some monitoring here.
Also, I call them up every several years or so. One time I did have good talk with Harve Platig, but he was soon gone. I usually had the same results you experienced, but not as intense.
There are some areas I'd like to not get bogged down in.
I think if I was just rambling, no one would bother with me. But my posts often have ideas that are scarce here. Give them time and they may not seem as rambling. New ideas always seem that way.
Mike.......you KEEP SAYING that posts "get lost".....
So...........I again, would like to see if you know the reasons WHY WIERWILLE FAILED in "receiving revelation" to lead the way international.
14 hours ago, skyrider said:
Okay, Mike.........against my better judgment to indulge your wierwille-sycophancy......
The wierwille-shtick was devoid of "receiving revelation" ........the man was a fraud and huckster. In all my cult-years around wierwille, I NEVER ONCE saw the guy receive OR operate revelation......ie word of knowledge, word of wisdom or discerning of spirits. NOT ONE TIME.
Wierwille claimed an 8th corps guy was possessed in the BRC.......wierwille stomped and stammered and did nothing!
The night at corps week when it was pouring rain and the big top tent was dangerously pooling water above.....wierwille blamed the corps.
Wierwille looked me straight in the eyes after my deprogramming experience and said that my parents would be DEAD IN FIVE YEARS for having put me thru that captivity and experience. My Dad lived 27 years longer, my Mom lived 34 years longer........than wierwille's fraudulent "prophecy."
I could give plenty more examples, Mike.........but I don't care to.
After 24 years around Vic, Howard, Don, Dotsie, Emogene, Wanda, and the cult-clan........I saw everything I needed to see. But go ahead and live off the delusions of this scam if you like..........where "the rubber meets the road" it just wasn't there. I don't care how many times you add "references" or "written research" from wierwille.......the scriptures POINTEDLY SAY that we shall know them by their fruit.
And one more thing.......I spent time delving into all that backstory of wierwille's India trip and claims........a nothing burger. Wierwille plagiarized whole swaths of that "foreign missions pamphlet" from others before him. But I seriously doubt that any of this will have any sway over your wierwille-discipleship.
Mike.......you KEEP SAYING that posts "get lost".....
So...........I again, would like to see if you know the reasons WHY WIERWILLE FAILED in "receiving revelation" to lead the way international.
Because he had sin in his life that complicated things. As time went by this piled up. So as he was completing and succeeding the job of getting the Word into written form, he was not doing so well in the last days of the ministry.
He said and wrote several times and several ways "I wish I was the man I know to be." I wish he was too, but he wasn't. At least he completed the job offer he knew to be of getting the Word for us written in English. I'm thankful for that.
I think at times he may have gotten good revelation on running the ministry, but not the times that you wanted it. and not at some of the places I'd have wished for some.
quote:
The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory or ideology. This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies change, opinions change; but this Word of Godlives and abides forever. It endures. It stands. Let's see this from John 5:39. "Search the scriptures..." It does not say search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or VP Wierwille's writings or the writings of a denomination. No, it says, "Search the scriptures..." because all scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts; but the Scriptures - they are God-breathed.
What does Wierwille mean by "the Word of God?" Well, in the passage above, he's clearly equating the Word of God with "the scriptures." We also know from PFAL Chapter One verse One that "The Bible is the revealed Word and Will of God." Thus, by checking in the verse and in previous usage, and knowing that things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, we can state with certainty the following:
The Bible = The Word of God = The Scriptures.
We will also note that Wierwille specifically differentiates his own writings from the Word of God. He lumps his work in the same category as the work of other ministers, past and present, in comparison with the Word of God, which he holds up on a pedestal.
So, according to Wierwille, his writings are NOT to be taken as "God-breathed" by comparison to the Bible.
So what of his statement "not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed?" Does that mean, as some meek masters have said, that SOME of what Wierwille writes will be God-breathed?
Let's see how Wierwille defines it:
quote:
The greatness of this is that every time that a believer speaks the accuracy of God's Word, he is like a man of God. When you speak the accuracy of God's Word, you are as a man of God. When we speak His Word, we are speaking as though God Himself were speaking.
PFAL, p. 89
So, we know that God's Word is the Bible. The accuracy of the Bible is another way of saying a proper understanding of the Bible. When you speak with a proper understanding of the Bible, what you speak is just as though God Himself were speaking it. On this we can all agree.
So, taking the two passages together, we may reasonably conclude that Wierwille felt his writings, when they agreed with the Bible, were as valuable as the Bible (to which I say, no duh). Logic dictates that when Wierwille's writings disagreed with the Bible, they would NOT be as valuable as the Bible. Weirwille himself left this possibility open by noting that NOT EVERYTHING HE WRITES is God-breathed.
On the contrary, according to Wierwille, ALL of the Bible is God-breathed.
One may reasonably conclude, therefore, that PFAL is God-breathed ONLY insofar as it agrees with the Bible, ALL of which is God-breathed. If and when PFAL disagrees with the Bible, the Bible is always given pre-eminence (how can it be otherwise)?
The Bible is pre-eminent.
Wierwille's writings are no more authoritative than the works of Luther, Aristotle, Kant, Billy Graham or Oral Roberts. WIERWILLE HIMSELF SAID SO.
Mike, you have perverted the words of Wierwille, and dismissed the Word of God. You measure the Bible against the standard of PFAL, when you should be measuring PFAL against the standard of the Bible.
That Wierwille did not see his book as "The Word of God," or as the equivalent of "God-breathed scripture" is evidenced by the fact YOU brought up, which is that PFAL went through several printings and that changes were made. Wierwille taught that if you change one word of the Word of God, then you no longer have God's Word. You accuse him of tampering with God's Word by fiddling with PFAL.
I know this won't change your mind, as you have already stated, quite plainly, that no amount of evidence will persuade you to pull your head out of the sand. That's your choice, but don't expect a bunch of us to stick our heads in the sand with you and call it light.
Why? I spent 5 years doing that between 2003 and 2008. You're asking me to take a lot of time and energy... for what? For you to learn from? No, for you to try and poke holes at, and initiate another round where I show how your hole poking is wrong, and then another round of same. Don't you remember that routine?
(snip)
Mike's alternate take on history is in effect here. He was challenged, many, many, MANY times- to pick, at his choice, even ONE of the items on the Actual Errors list, and, using his supposed techniques, resolve it. He has completely refused to do so for the entire time. WE (independent of Mike) discussed ONE item on the list, and whether or not it should be included. Mike, having demonstrated NOTHING in the process, announced afterward that he'd succeeded and knew all along it was going to come off the list. That's transparent to most adults, and the most blatant of techniques that cold readers(charlatans) use.
So, Mike will continue to PRETEND he addressed the list, and, perhaps in his altered memories, he really remembers it that way.
Gee, Mike, it seems like a pretty easy request. You say you have a different way to deal with actual errors. Fine. How does it apply to something extremely basic, such as "thoroughly" and "throughly"? It doesn't seem like "that would take a lot of time and energy". Then again, I haven't seen a demonstration, so I have no way of really gauging the complexity involved..
In Dr, Wierwilles defense , all of his books contain great truth. Truth is where you find it.to say he stole others ,ideas, thoughts on the subject as big as God and his word is false. Dr found truth from others and built on it. He was able to organize and present it in such a way that helped open Gods Word to people.I personally have seen in my life more miracles and blessings by, learning , applying, and living what Dr wierwille taught than 20 years in the Baptist church. Most of what I read here is pure bologna. yes it is true there are Bad people in the Way , people were hurt, bad leadership, my heart goes out to those that had there life turned up side down. But, the fault lies in looking to people instead of God, his word and common sense, I have personally confronted many way leadership and backed them down every time. they ran with there tails between there legs . I have moved on and have acquired a bachelors degree in theology, and let me say , some of the studies are pure crap. I thank God what Dr Wierwille found from others. personally I don't care if you like what I say or not, you can disagree , cry, rant, claim you have the all truth and call me a liar, but I will say this one thing about this site, cowards , you should of stood up for yourself when you had the chance, IF you would have mastered his books, did the research, applied the principals, maybe all this venom, pain ,hatred, weakness, would have been avoided. We don't follow people , we study to show ourselves approved before God. God is love. Jesus Christ did come to give us the more abundant life To bad you focused on peoples flaws , and did not spend more time in the word, Again I am sorry for the pain the way caused , I am not in the way, but, what others did, to people, was wrong. but there is no religious organization that is perfect. No College degree that has all the answers. No preacher ,paster, that is perfect. Only God and his Word are. This site needs forgiveness, forgiveness of others , the way, forgiveness of our own self . then look to God and his wonderful son Our Lord and Savior , Jesus Christ. then move out and enjoy the freedom God gives. Tim lee
Sorry I am not glong to give you a pass for calling me a coward when you are too lazy and deluded to get to know me or my story.
I focused on God and truth. you on the other hand are an armchair quarterback hyping your self up on a sick man's stolen work, all while being too cowardly to look behind the curtain at the fruit as Jesus instructed us.
What you accuse others of oozes out of your post like an open sore. you are not in the way and didn't have to live the Word with the people teaching it like I did. I damn well know the difference between someone living and teaching God's Word and someone who is trying to teach what they are not living.
So why don't you with all your .... accusations crawl on back out of here where you came from and kiss 100% of my @$$ on the way out.
Or be a man and apologize.
And stop lying about all the many way leadership you have confronted and backed down with them running away with their tail tucked. None of the people named here has ever been seen by anyone responding to Joe believer confronting them in this fashion. I mean I could believe you talked harshly to your lady twig coordinator and made her cry based on your post but certainly not anyone we post about around here.
If we would have mastered his books. idiot we pored over those hours a day for years. More than you have even dreamed about. Rosie has spent the last decade plus dumbing the Way down to the collaterals. And it is worse now than ever before.
I have a lot of tolerance for people but about zero for seagulls who want to fly by crap on things and then fly off.
And Mike with visions of Jesus returning holding an orange piffle book? I mean someone who can elevate vps book above the words of the Father like that is not even remotely close to being sound of mind. Closer to tinfoil hats and alien abductions. Tune in to the revelation channel where you can live for the devil and speak for God all at the same time
I think if I was just rambling, no one would bother with me. But my posts often have ideas that are scarce here. Give them time and they may not seem as rambling. New ideas always seem that way.
Your posts and ideas are like the wooden spoon. Completely forced and wielded in blind chaotic madness against the easiest targets for trumped up imaginary problems. Your right, given time, they won't just be seen as rambling.
They are not stupid dolts, getting blessed by garbage. The evil is not as simple as it's presented here.
Nobody said anyone is a stupid dolt. I wouldnt call PFAL garbage. The problem with way ministry publications is the pedestal they are placed by you, twi, et al. I dunno, caveat emptor about sums up my point of view on the matter.
Really the evil that was perpetrated by Wierwille and his posse really is simple in concept. The problem comes in with the perpetual cover up, especially the deception caused on those that are seeking a better relationship with God. I never got involved with the way expecting anything other than a godly principle based ministry. While godly principle is lived by many people involved with twi, the top leadership is still morally corrupt in the massive coverup they are still working on. So in essence, wierwilles fraud lives on posthumously.
I would call PFAL garbage. A number of posters here have shown that the teachings are designed to encourage reduced critical thinking skills. By reading VPW's works, you can be made stupider. VPW may have plagiarized much, but he arranged it as a trap. In that way he was an author.
And one more thing I'd like to address - what is the difference between truth and fact?
Perhaps it's a bit of a philosophical issue (and worth making some distinction between truth and what is true,) but however they're ultimately defined, I think truth directly reveals the pertinent facts, while facts do not always (or necessarily) signify, relate to, lead to, or directly reveal the real truth.
Because he had sin in his life that complicated things. As time went by this piled up. So as he was completing and succeeding the job of getting the Word into written form, he was not doing so well in the last days of the ministry.
He said and wrote several times and several ways "I wish I was the man I know to be." I wish he was too, but he wasn't. At least he completed the job offer he knew to be of getting the Word for us written in English. I'm thankful for that.
I think at times he may have gotten good revelation on running the ministry, but not the times that you wanted it. and not at some of the places I'd have wished for some.
He also said “…I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” from page 175 of Whiteside’s"The Way Living in Love"… however after contacting the registrar’s office of the Moody Correspondence School in 1987, I found out they have no record of wierwille completing a course with them.
Yeah, let’s talk about the sin in his life that complicated things - wierwille was a pathological liar – that does really complicate things - Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice To Deceive !
I’ve shared this document before along with some other comments:
Perhaps it's a bit of a philosophical issue (and worth making some distinction between truth and what is true,) but however they're ultimately defined, I think truth directly reveals the pertinent facts, while facts do not always (or necessarily) signify, relate to, lead to, or directly reveal the real truth.
First of all, there's a big difference between being selected to be a minister in an organization and being selected to get the Word into writing...
Where in the world did you ever get the idea in your head that vpw was ever "selected to get the Word into writing"? Certainly not from vpw himself (as that little quip would have made its way to surface many, many long years ago...)
And yeah, neither am I unaware aware of what CG said some time after the POP paper about putting things into book form.
11 hours ago, Mike said:
We just had a big discussion here about PFAL page 83 and how Dr said that not all of his writings were God-breathed.
Even when in fellowship we were taught (and Dr claims it worked this way for him too) that we must find out everything we can by the 5-senses, and THEN revelation can be sought and expected if needed to bless God’s people.
Good grief. Why would you think that ANY of his writings were "God-breathed" when he himself didn't think (much less believe) that? Or perhaps you never listened to (or weren't around to hear) him expound on how the scriptures were originally written by revelation. Evidently you've not seen (or heard about) a preliminary draft for one of his books (or pamphlets.) Are you aware they were others that proofed and "edited" his work? Think Karen Mart1n (or anyone else) would dare to change even one word if it were "God-breathed?"
Furthermore, whatever fellowship you attended that taught you that you must find out everything you can by the 5-senses, and THEN seek and expect revelation... probably never received any (or they might have had a little better understanding of how it really works.)
I would call PFAL garbage. A number of posters here have shown that the teachings are designed to encourage reduced critical thinking skills. By reading VPW's works, you can be made stupider. VPW may have plagiarized much, but he arranged it as a trap. In that way he was an author.
I disagree. But take it for what it's title says it is.
It's a book about how to live life more abundantly. (Which might not absolutely or necessarily be, more Godly.)
I disagree. But take it for what it's title says it is.
It's a book about how to live life more abundantly. (Which might not absolutely or necessarily be, more Godly.)
If we're judging books by their cover, here's some more that might interest somebody LINK
Good grief. Why would you think that ANY of his writings were "God-breathed" when he himself didn't think (much less believe) that? Or perhaps you never listened to (or weren't around to hear) him expound on how the scriptures were originally written by revelation. Evidently you've not seen (or heard about) a preliminary draft for one of his books (or pamphlets.) Are you aware they were others that proofed and "edited" his work? Think Karen Mart1n (or anyone else) would dare to change even one word if it were "God-breathed?"
Furthermore, whatever fellowship you attended that taught you that you must find out everything you can by the 5-senses, and THEN seek and expect revelation... probably never received any (or they might have had a little better understanding of how it really works.)
Yikes!How can I EVER answer all this fan mail?
Nibbling through VERY slowly is my only option today, so I’m doing a semi-random sample, with a view towards brevity.
*************
TLC,
This set of comments from your will fill my available timeslot.
You wrote: “Good grief. Why would you think that ANY of his writings were "God-breathed" when he himself didn't think (much less believe) that?”
One of my main themes is that we forgot many items and/or did not absorb many items. This line of yours demonstrates this well.
I have found approximately 90 places where Dr told us on tape or in writing that he was given this job. About 7 or 8 or 9 years ago I wrote up exact quotes for 22 of them. I think they are still here. If not I can pretty easily find them and re-post them. I used the phrase “thus saith the lord” to describe them often.
***
You wrote: “Or perhaps you never listened to (or weren't around to hear) him expound on how the scriptures were originally written by revelation. Evidently you've not seen (or heard about) a preliminary draft for one of his books (or pamphlets.) Are you aware they were others that proofed and "edited" his work? Think Karen Mart1n (or anyone else) would dare to change even one word if it were ‘God-breathed?’”
Also posted here years ago is approximately the following:
I rented a room for 2 years from J.Fred W. in New Knoxville. He and Karen edited the PFAL book. I discussed this process with him MANY TIMES for those two years. He was my best friend.He passed away several years ago.
I kept in touch with J.Fred all these years. When I started posting here I was on the phone with him quite often, AGAIN discussing the editing process.
Dr also taught in the Univ of Life for I Thess 1:1 and then again for II Thess 1:1 that Timothy and Silas discussed the epistles with Paul before they were put into written form. It was like they were his editors, also having the same spirit. Same for Dr’s editors: fine people!
By coincidence, another best friend of mine is David C,. another one of Dr’s editors.Many similar discussions with him over the decades. I also lived across the street from Milford Bowen, another earlier editor of Dr’s.Do you see a pattern here?
I was utterly fascinated by the editing process and how many were involved back in the 70s.However I did not make the leap that the PFAL collaterals were God-breathed. HONEST! I did not think that.
I was much more mainstream then. Like many others,I thought the film class was SPOKEN by revelation or by inspiration, and that a lot of SNS tapes were spoken the same way.
Not a Wierwille worshipper like some, I was of the opinion that Dr was a sinner and that NOT ALL of his spoken words were to be trusted.But I, like many others then, thought he often spoke by the spirit, especially when a microphone was on.
The phrase a lot of us used then describing the film class was that it was “Almost straight prophesy!”Anyone remember?
Several years ago I called up Karen W to discuses all these things. We also did some e-mailing. She was a bit shocked by my thesis, but we still were able to discuss it some. At that time Donnie got very sick and soon passed away, and I’ve not had a chance to get back to her. I’d like to.
I also spent 11 years researching and corresponding with Walter in the 70s and early 80s on the topic of the “Who put together the New Testament scriptures and when?” otherwise known as the Canon of Scripture. Kinda like the NT “Editors” if you will? My old paper-file folder on this almost 3 inches thick.
***
You wrote: “Furthermore, whatever fellowship you attended that taught you that you must find out everything you can by the 5-senses, and THEN seek and expect revelation... probably never received any (or they might have had a little better understanding of how it really works.)”
This is another item that looks to have been forgotten.
I am almost quoting from the Advanced Class on working the 5-senses first before getting revelation. It’s called Key #4 in the syllabus list titled “16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit.”
Dr spends a segment on this, and teaches how Jesus had to ask around with his 5-senses in order to re-locate the man-born-blind, whom he had healed. The 1965 SNS tape I mentioned earlier on this thread “Light Began to Dawn” also had many passages devoted to this principle of “What you can know by the 5-senses God expects you to know.”
***
My time is up for now. Stay tuned! By Christmas I ought to be able to respond (in this much detail?) to everyone else.
You wrote: “Or perhaps you never listened to (or weren't around to hear) him expound on how the scriptures were originally written by revelation.
Worth repeating, as it's still true. But just for the record, I have heard him (from his own lips, in person) speak quite plainly on the matter as to what he believed Paul did NOT do when writing them. As proud a man as vpw was, and as much as he might of viewed himself as an apostle, I don't believe he ever put himself in the position of "writing scripture."
31 minutes ago, Mike said:
I kept in touch with J.Fred all these years. When I started posting here I was on the phone with him quite often, AGAIN discussing the editing process.
Dr also taught in the Univ of Life for I Thess 1:1 and then again for II Thess 1:1 that Timothy and Silas discussed the epistles with Paul before they were put into written form.
Well, there's a few things about J. Fred that would probably surprise you.
Not only did I probably hear it taught live, I also have those U of L tapes, and (years ago) listened to them (more than once.) Never did I hear what you now claim are there. Something like that just doesn't fit with anything I've ever thought, and it would undoubtedly have jumped out at me and slapped me in the face had anything like that been said. So, I'm calling your bluff.
42 minutes ago, Mike said:
I also spent 11 years researching and corresponding with Walter in the 70s and early 80s on the topic of the “Who put together the New Testament scriptures and when?” otherwise known as the Canon of Scripture
The Canonizing of Scripture (which I'm not that ignorant of) is an entirely different matter than scripture itself. If indeed you spent 11 years on said topic, you surely ought to know that.
But, as noted below
47 minutes ago, Mike said:
Several years ago I called up Karen W to discuses all these things. We also did some e-mailing. She was a bit shocked by my thesis, but we still were able to discuss it some.
...you evidently have a thesis to prove.
Which probably pretty much explains why nothing whatsoever is going to derail you. You have a mission.
(Mission Impossible, move over.)
Funny (almost... but not really) how when a man gets a notion so stuck in his head he easily molds things to it, yet remains oblivious to the fact that he's changed anything.
Actually I was here 7 years ago doing light posting, but the Mike Wars ended 10 years ago... I think.
As far as I'm concerned, yes, they ended 10 years ago or more.
We no longer have anything approaching a common frame of reference anymore, so there's nothing for me to debate.
It should be noted at this point, however, that you and I are finally in agreement. I now consider the works of VPW to be just as "God-breathed" as the Bible. So I guess you win.
Hi Raf. It's MikeLite this time. That's my goal. Going slow and trying to be more friendly.
***
TLC, is there any way I can post clips of those Thess tapes here? I have them and can clip them down. They should be easy for anyone to find, because they right at the beginnings of sections, being verse 1:1 ....BTW, there's more detail in the first one, second one almost word for word same, but abbreviated.
***
TLC,
You asked about vpw’s editors, and I forgot about one more. It’s Uncle Harry.
When I lived at HQ he took me under his wing and helped me with stuff, like getting a car. He’d take me to auctions and we’d talk about ministry business.
One day we were talking about BOT meetings and I asked him about vpw’s revelations point blank. He laughed, and said in BOT meetings, where a lot of difficult decisions filter up to, they usually fought like cats and dogs!Then got serious and said, almost word for word quoting <<…but when Vic said ‘thus saith the Lord’ then I’d shut up.>>
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Mike
Apologies again, in that I meant a plural "you" there, in the possible portraying them as simpletons. And you may be right about lurkers. I do think about them, in the back of my mind, and I know what they desire to get posted at times.. But I was thinking most of the many non-vocal grads out there who got blessed, and some of who still get blessed by PFAL books. They are not stupid dolts, getting blessed by garbage. The evil is not as simple as it's presented here.
As for talking to HQ, some of that I do right here, knowing they probably still do some monitoring here.
Also, I call them up every several years or so. One time I did have good talk with Harve Platig, but he was soon gone. I usually had the same results you experienced, but not as intense.
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skyrider
chockfull / mike...............yeah, same excuse from mike over and over again.
He doesn't answer specifics.......just rambling regurgitations.
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Mike
skyrider,
I do answer some specifics, and will some more.
There are some areas I'd like to not get bogged down in.
I think if I was just rambling, no one would bother with me. But my posts often have ideas that are scarce here. Give them time and they may not seem as rambling. New ideas always seem that way.
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skyrider
Mike.......you KEEP SAYING that posts "get lost".....
So...........I again, would like to see if you know the reasons WHY WIERWILLE FAILED in "receiving revelation" to lead the way international.
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Mike
Because he had sin in his life that complicated things. As time went by this piled up. So as he was completing and succeeding the job of getting the Word into written form, he was not doing so well in the last days of the ministry.
He said and wrote several times and several ways "I wish I was the man I know to be." I wish he was too, but he wasn't. At least he completed the job offer he knew to be of getting the Word for us written in English. I'm thankful for that.
I think at times he may have gotten good revelation on running the ministry, but not the times that you wanted it. and not at some of the places I'd have wished for some.
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WordWolf
The following was posted by Goey, June 1, 2003, 2:12pm Eastern.
=======
--------------------------
From PFAL- p83
"The Bible was written so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of
doctrine or theory or ideology. This Word of God does not change. Men change, ideologies
change, opinions change; but this Word of God lives and abides forever. It endures, it
stands. Let's see this from John 5:39. "Search the scriptures..." It does not say
search Shakespeare or Kant or Plato or Aristotle or V.P. WIerwille's writings or the
writings of a denomination. No, it says "Search the scriptures..." because all
scripture is God-breathed. Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be
God-breathed; not what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor Roberts;
but the Scriptures- they are God-breathed.
--------------------
In think WIerwille put "necessarily" in there because he believed or wanted others to
believe that it was "possible" for him to write from inspiration. Just as possible for
him as it was for the others he mentioned, like Luther, Wesley, etc. I have no problem
with that. It is certainly possible that God could inspire any one of us to write.
In the last sentence, Wierwille uses a semicolon after
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed."
Then he lists these other folks but omits the word 'necessarily'. This, according to
Bullinger, is the figure of speech-ellipsis or omission. We could add the word
'necessarily' before 'what Calvin said'-and not change the sense of the sentence.
It would then read:
"Not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed, not
[necessarily] what Calvin said, nor Luther, nor Wesley, nor Graham, nor
Roberts; but the Scriptures- they are God-breathed."
In fact, you could rearrange the names in any order and not change the sense of what
Wierwille was saying here.
After he lists these men he then says 'but'.
BUT! BUT! BUT!...IN CONTRAST to what all these men have written- it is the Scriptures
that are God-breathed and it is the Scriptures that are to be searched (and mastered.)
The thrust and point of WIerwille's message here is that the works of men-
including Luther, Wesley, Calvin, etc-and Wierwille himself; even though they
'could' be God-breathed (inspired)- are not scripture. They are not in the Bible and are
not a part of the canon of scripture. And, rather than rely on the works of men,
(Wierwille includes himself), we are to search the Bible (scriptures)-
"so that you as a believer need not be blown about by every wind of doctrine or theory
or ideology."
Mike, it seems that because of your seeking for "hidden messages" and because of your
presumptions necessary to support your theories, that you have missed the actual
message that Wierwlle was really attempting to make. You got it exactly reversed from
what Wierwille was trying to teach here in PFAL.
==================
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WordWolf
January 3, 2003,
Raf:
What does Wierwille mean by "the Word of God?" Well, in the passage above, he's clearly equating the Word of God with "the scriptures." We also know from PFAL Chapter One verse One that "The Bible is the revealed Word and Will of God." Thus, by checking in the verse and in previous usage, and knowing that things equal to the same thing are equal to each other, we can state with certainty the following:
The Bible = The Word of God = The Scriptures.
We will also note that Wierwille specifically differentiates his own writings from the Word of God. He lumps his work in the same category as the work of other ministers, past and present, in comparison with the Word of God, which he holds up on a pedestal.
So, according to Wierwille, his writings are NOT to be taken as "God-breathed" by comparison to the Bible.
So what of his statement "not all that Wierwille writes will necessarily be God-breathed?" Does that mean, as some meek masters have said, that SOME of what Wierwille writes will be God-breathed?
Let's see how Wierwille defines it:
PFAL, p. 89
So, we know that God's Word is the Bible. The accuracy of the Bible is another way of saying a proper understanding of the Bible. When you speak with a proper understanding of the Bible, what you speak is just as though God Himself were speaking it. On this we can all agree.
So, taking the two passages together, we may reasonably conclude that Wierwille felt his writings, when they agreed with the Bible, were as valuable as the Bible (to which I say, no duh). Logic dictates that when Wierwille's writings disagreed with the Bible, they would NOT be as valuable as the Bible. Weirwille himself left this possibility open by noting that NOT EVERYTHING HE WRITES is God-breathed.
On the contrary, according to Wierwille, ALL of the Bible is God-breathed.
One may reasonably conclude, therefore, that PFAL is God-breathed ONLY insofar as it agrees with the Bible, ALL of which is God-breathed. If and when PFAL disagrees with the Bible, the Bible is always given pre-eminence (how can it be otherwise)?
The Bible is pre-eminent.
Wierwille's writings are no more authoritative than the works of Luther, Aristotle, Kant, Billy Graham or Oral Roberts. WIERWILLE HIMSELF SAID SO.
Mike, you have perverted the words of Wierwille, and dismissed the Word of God. You measure the Bible against the standard of PFAL, when you should be measuring PFAL against the standard of the Bible.
That Wierwille did not see his book as "The Word of God," or as the equivalent of "God-breathed scripture" is evidenced by the fact YOU brought up, which is that PFAL went through several printings and that changes were made. Wierwille taught that if you change one word of the Word of God, then you no longer have God's Word. You accuse him of tampering with God's Word by fiddling with PFAL.
I know this won't change your mind, as you have already stated, quite plainly, that no amount of evidence will persuade you to pull your head out of the sand. That's your choice, but don't expect a bunch of us to stick our heads in the sand with you and call it light.
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WordWolf
Mike's alternate take on history is in effect here. He was challenged, many, many, MANY times- to pick, at his choice, even ONE of the items on the Actual Errors list, and, using his supposed techniques, resolve it. He has completely refused to do so for the entire time. WE (independent of Mike) discussed ONE item on the list, and whether or not it should be included. Mike, having demonstrated NOTHING in the process, announced afterward that he'd succeeded and knew all along it was going to come off the list. That's transparent to most adults, and the most blatant of techniques that cold readers(charlatans) use.
So, Mike will continue to PRETEND he addressed the list, and, perhaps in his altered memories, he really remembers it that way.
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WordWolf
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chockfull
Sorry I am not glong to give you a pass for calling me a coward when you are too lazy and deluded to get to know me or my story.
I focused on God and truth. you on the other hand are an armchair quarterback hyping your self up on a sick man's stolen work, all while being too cowardly to look behind the curtain at the fruit as Jesus instructed us.
What you accuse others of oozes out of your post like an open sore. you are not in the way and didn't have to live the Word with the people teaching it like I did. I damn well know the difference between someone living and teaching God's Word and someone who is trying to teach what they are not living.
So why don't you with all your .... accusations crawl on back out of here where you came from and kiss 100% of my @$$ on the way out.
Or be a man and apologize.
And stop lying about all the many way leadership you have confronted and backed down with them running away with their tail tucked. None of the people named here has ever been seen by anyone responding to Joe believer confronting them in this fashion. I mean I could believe you talked harshly to your lady twig coordinator and made her cry based on your post but certainly not anyone we post about around here.
If we would have mastered his books. idiot we pored over those hours a day for years. More than you have even dreamed about. Rosie has spent the last decade plus dumbing the Way down to the collaterals. And it is worse now than ever before.
I have a lot of tolerance for people but about zero for seagulls who want to fly by crap on things and then fly off.
And Mike with visions of Jesus returning holding an orange piffle book? I mean someone who can elevate vps book above the words of the Father like that is not even remotely close to being sound of mind. Closer to tinfoil hats and alien abductions. Tune in to the revelation channel where you can live for the devil and speak for God all at the same time
God is not mocked what a man sows he reaps.
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Bolshevik
Your posts and ideas are like the wooden spoon. Completely forced and wielded in blind chaotic madness against the easiest targets for trumped up imaginary problems. Your right, given time, they won't just be seen as rambling.
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OldSkool
Nobody said anyone is a stupid dolt. I wouldnt call PFAL garbage. The problem with way ministry publications is the pedestal they are placed by you, twi, et al. I dunno, caveat emptor about sums up my point of view on the matter.
Really the evil that was perpetrated by Wierwille and his posse really is simple in concept. The problem comes in with the perpetual cover up, especially the deception caused on those that are seeking a better relationship with God. I never got involved with the way expecting anything other than a godly principle based ministry. While godly principle is lived by many people involved with twi, the top leadership is still morally corrupt in the massive coverup they are still working on. So in essence, wierwilles fraud lives on posthumously.
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Bolshevik
I would call PFAL garbage. A number of posters here have shown that the teachings are designed to encourage reduced critical thinking skills. By reading VPW's works, you can be made stupider. VPW may have plagiarized much, but he arranged it as a trap. In that way he was an author.
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TLC
Perhaps it's a bit of a philosophical issue (and worth making some distinction between truth and what is true,) but however they're ultimately defined, I think truth directly reveals the pertinent facts, while facts do not always (or necessarily) signify, relate to, lead to, or directly reveal the real truth.
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T-Bone
He also said “…I took everything I could take at the Moody Bible Institute too, through their correspondence courses.” from page 175 of Whiteside’s "The Way Living in Love"… however after contacting the registrar’s office of the Moody Correspondence School in 1987, I found out they have no record of wierwille completing a course with them.
letter from Moody Correspondence School registrar's office
Yeah, let’s talk about the sin in his life that complicated things - wierwille was a pathological liar – that does really complicate things - Oh! What A Tangled Web We Weave When First We Practice To Deceive !
I’ve shared this document before along with some other comments:
patchwork post 1
patchwork post 2
let's rephrase the question on this thread - is it okay to recommend the books of a pathological liar?
PFAL = Prolific Fibs And Lies by victor paul wierwille
Edited by T-Bonebonus features of DVD
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T-Bone
sorry - still sounds confusing to me
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TLC
Where in the world did you ever get the idea in your head that vpw was ever "selected to get the Word into writing"? Certainly not from vpw himself (as that little quip would have made its way to surface many, many long years ago...)
And yeah, neither am I unaware aware of what CG said some time after the POP paper about putting things into book form.
Good grief. Why would you think that ANY of his writings were "God-breathed" when he himself didn't think (much less believe) that? Or perhaps you never listened to (or weren't around to hear) him expound on how the scriptures were originally written by revelation. Evidently you've not seen (or heard about) a preliminary draft for one of his books (or pamphlets.) Are you aware they were others that proofed and "edited" his work? Think Karen Mart1n (or anyone else) would dare to change even one word if it were "God-breathed?"
Furthermore, whatever fellowship you attended that taught you that you must find out everything you can by the 5-senses, and THEN seek and expect revelation... probably never received any (or they might have had a little better understanding of how it really works.)
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TLC
I disagree. But take it for what it's title says it is.
It's a book about how to live life more abundantly. (Which might not absolutely or necessarily be, more Godly.)
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Bolshevik
If we're judging books by their cover, here's some more that might interest somebody LINK
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Mike
Yikes! How can I EVER answer all this fan mail?
Nibbling through VERY slowly is my only option today, so I’m doing a semi-random sample, with a view towards brevity.*************
TLC,
This set of comments from your will fill my available timeslot.
You wrote: “Good grief. Why would you think that ANY of his writings were "God-breathed" when he himself didn't think (much less believe) that?”
One of my main themes is that we forgot many items and/or did not absorb many items. This line of yours demonstrates this well.
I have found approximately 90 places where Dr told us on tape or in writing that he was given this job. About 7 or 8 or 9 years ago I wrote up exact quotes for 22 of them. I think they are still here. If not I can pretty easily find them and re-post them. I used the phrase “thus saith the lord” to describe them often.***
You wrote: “Or perhaps you never listened to (or weren't around to hear) him expound on how the scriptures were originally written by revelation. Evidently you've not seen (or heard about) a preliminary draft for one of his books (or pamphlets.) Are you aware they were others that proofed and "edited" his work? Think Karen Mart1n (or anyone else) would dare to change even one word if it were ‘God-breathed?’”Also posted here years ago is approximately the following:
I rented a room for 2 years from J.Fred W. in New Knoxville. He and Karen edited the PFAL book. I discussed this process with him MANY TIMES for those two years. He was my best friend. He passed away several years ago.
I kept in touch with J.Fred all these years. When I started posting here I was on the phone with him quite often, AGAIN discussing the editing process.Dr also taught in the Univ of Life for I Thess 1:1 and then again for II Thess 1:1 that Timothy and Silas discussed the epistles with Paul before they were put into written form. It was like they were his editors, also having the same spirit. Same for Dr’s editors: fine people!
By coincidence, another best friend of mine is David C,. another one of Dr’s editors. Many similar discussions with him over the decades. I also lived across the street from Milford Bowen, another earlier editor of Dr’s. Do you see a pattern here?
I was utterly fascinated by the editing process and how many were involved back in the 70s. However I did not make the leap that the PFAL collaterals were God-breathed. HONEST! I did not think that.
I was much more mainstream then. Like many others, I thought the film class was SPOKEN by revelation or by inspiration, and that a lot of SNS tapes were spoken the same way.
Not a Wierwille worshipper like some, I was of the opinion that Dr was a sinner and that NOT ALL of his spoken words were to be trusted. But I, like many others then, thought he often spoke by the spirit, especially when a microphone was on.
The phrase a lot of us used then describing the film class was that it was “Almost straight prophesy!” Anyone remember?
Several years ago I called up Karen W to discuses all these things. We also did some e-mailing. She was a bit shocked by my thesis, but we still were able to discuss it some. At that time Donnie got very sick and soon passed away, and I’ve not had a chance to get back to her. I’d like to.
I also spent 11 years researching and corresponding with Walter in the 70s and early 80s on the topic of the “Who put together the New Testament scriptures and when?” otherwise known as the Canon of Scripture. Kinda like the NT “Editors” if you will? My old paper-file folder on this almost 3 inches thick.
***
You wrote: “Furthermore, whatever fellowship you attended that taught you that you must find out everything you can by the 5-senses, and THEN seek and expect revelation... probably never received any (or they might have had a little better understanding of how it really works.)”
This is another item that looks to have been forgotten.I am almost quoting from the Advanced Class on working the 5-senses first before getting revelation. It’s called Key #4 in the syllabus list titled “16 Keys to Walking in the Spirit.”
Dr spends a segment on this, and teaches how Jesus had to ask around with his 5-senses in order to re-locate the man-born-blind, whom he had healed. The 1965 SNS tape I mentioned earlier on this thread “Light Began to Dawn” also had many passages devoted to this principle of “What you can know by the 5-senses God expects you to know.”
***
My time is up for now. Stay tuned! By Christmas I ought to be able to respond (in this much detail?) to everyone else.
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TLC
Worth repeating, as it's still true. But just for the record, I have heard him (from his own lips, in person) speak quite plainly on the matter as to what he believed Paul did NOT do when writing them. As proud a man as vpw was, and as much as he might of viewed himself as an apostle, I don't believe he ever put himself in the position of "writing scripture."
Well, there's a few things about J. Fred that would probably surprise you.
Not only did I probably hear it taught live, I also have those U of L tapes, and (years ago) listened to them (more than once.) Never did I hear what you now claim are there. Something like that just doesn't fit with anything I've ever thought, and it would undoubtedly have jumped out at me and slapped me in the face had anything like that been said. So, I'm calling your bluff.
The Canonizing of Scripture (which I'm not that ignorant of) is an entirely different matter than scripture itself. If indeed you spent 11 years on said topic, you surely ought to know that.
But, as noted below
...you evidently have a thesis to prove.
Which probably pretty much explains why nothing whatsoever is going to derail you. You have a mission.
(Mission Impossible, move over.)
Funny (almost... but not really) how when a man gets a notion so stuck in his head he easily molds things to it, yet remains oblivious to the fact that he's changed anything.
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Raf
He's back!
Welcome back, Mike!
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Raf
As far as I'm concerned, yes, they ended 10 years ago or more.
We no longer have anything approaching a common frame of reference anymore, so there's nothing for me to debate.
It should be noted at this point, however, that you and I are finally in agreement. I now consider the works of VPW to be just as "God-breathed" as the Bible. So I guess you win.
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Mike
Hi Raf. It's MikeLite this time. That's my goal. Going slow and trying to be more friendly.
***
TLC, is there any way I can post clips of those Thess tapes here? I have them and can clip them down. They should be easy for anyone to find, because they right at the beginnings of sections, being verse 1:1 ....BTW, there's more detail in the first one, second one almost word for word same, but abbreviated.
***
TLC,
You asked about vpw’s editors, and I forgot about one more. It’s Uncle Harry.
When I lived at HQ he took me under his wing and helped me with stuff, like getting a car. He’d take me to auctions and we’d talk about ministry business.One day we were talking about BOT meetings and I asked him about vpw’s revelations point blank. He laughed, and said in BOT meetings, where a lot of difficult decisions filter up to, they usually fought like cats and dogs! Then got serious and said, almost word for word quoting <<…but when Vic said ‘thus saith the Lord’ then I’d shut up.>>
I had to sneak back in to add that.
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