I didn't watch the video but if they are saying we are still supposed to tithe then that's incorrect. Tithing was for the Levites, we aren't under Mosaic law so we are simply instructed to give as we purpose in our hearts and to give cheerfully, not of necessity, or compulsion in other words.
He didn't say we were supposed to tithe, in fact he specifically said that was one of TWI's inconsistencies i.e. he noted that TWI taught the old testament was not written "to" us but epistles only are "to" us therefore how can TWI teach we must obey it? Good point.
He didn't say we were supposed to tithe, in fact he specifically said that was one of TWI's inconsistencies i.e. he noted that TWI taught the old testament was not written "to" us but epistles only are "to" us therefore how can TWI teach we must obey it? Good point.
there’s a little more on it - the sides seem to differ over “same substance” and whether or not Jesus had an origin. The councils were voting to unify a position and one side lost and disappeared. Maybe VPs first century schtick had to do with resurrecting what he considered the right side of that argument.
I think they were arguing over different views of the elephant.
They were the best of times. They were the worst of times.
I was amused by that fact that this Edict of Thessalonica was issued on February 27 (380 A.D.)... and today, was February 27th. One of those flukes in life, I guess.
Emperor Constantine, through the Council of Nicaea in 325, attempted to unite Christianity and establish a single, imperially approved version of the faith. Ironically, his efforts were the cause of the deep divisions created by the disputes after Nicaea.[1][2]
Inside the Roman Empire, theTrinitarianfaction ultimately gained the upper hand through theEdict of Thessalonica, issued on 27 February AD 380 by the then reigning three co-Emperors, which made Nicene Christology thestate religionof theRoman Empire,[3]and through strict enforcement of that edict. However, outside the Roman Empire,Arianismand other forms ofUnitarianismcontinued to be preached for some time. The modernRoman Catholic Churchand theEastern Orthodox Church, as well as most other modern Christian sects, have generally followed the Trinitarian formulation, though each has its own specific theology on the matter.
But that’s a sidetrack - back to the guy. He is just a young teacher in a Baptist church doing an online class mostly for the people in his church. He has helped me in certain vision aspects but I’m not selling him as snake oil either.
Yes... at this stage of life, I'm not all that interested in some young teacher's dissecting a topic into one box or the other. There is a much wider perspective to consider than just a limited list of one's statement of beliefs. At times, the guy seemed a little too cagey for me. At least, he did stop and take questions after he'd made his insertions and injections. But if the audience is filled with a bunch of other people are steeped in the same doctrine.... not much of a contested environment.
Which, of course..... makes me so thankful for GSC. Here there are a variety of experiences and viewpoints given on any thread. I like this model of thought and feedback.
Yes... at this stage of life, I'm not all that interested in some young teacher's dissecting a topic into one box or the other. There is a much wider perspective to consider than just a limited list of one's statement of beliefs. At times, the guy seemed a little too cagey for me. At least, he did stop and take questions after he'd made his insertions and injections. But if the audience is filled with a bunch of other people are steeped in the same doctrine.... not much of a contested environment.
Which, of course..... makes me so thankful for GSC. Here there are a variety of experiences and viewpoints given on any thread. I like this model of thought and feedback.
Sure. I will call out what he does as well.
TWI has on its main website a statement of beliefs that masks what they really do believe and teach by structuring the statement similar to a denominations statement, including the same main elements that they do, and masks the major doctrinal differences with mainstream Christianity.
This is deceptive. This draws the naïve Christian in. This isn’t usually addressed anywhere.
Im not signing people up for his class. I took it though for personal purposes.
Everyones on medication. The JWs have a rate of 3x the average population with paranoid schizophrenia disorders. And much higher rates of depression.
And yet they are the one cult that witnesses and proselytizes more than any other cult. If that lifestyle pattern was healthy then you would see different results.
Giving every last minute of their life trying to “baptize” another in their religion and the rest of their thoughts trying to avoid any appearances of evil and disfellowshipping. And a suspicious environment where everyone “tattles” on each other to as high a level of leadership as will give them audience.
I see similar patterns of behavior in The Way International. Especially as it involves leadership functioning and roles.
Want a more abundant life, with 30% higher rates of depression and paranoia? Take the PFAL class.
Ot grow a clue like the young people already are and run as fast as you can in the opposite direction!
Yes holding leaders accountable or even having them answer to some form of governance and licensing is key to their genuine function. Without that their heads blow up like a watermelon and they start having their greatest concern is their legacy and how God called them directly to not be accountable to anyone.
These are checks and balances. US government has 3 branches of accountability to each other. Now this election cycle that is a real zoo. But it is a check on unconstrained action and power.
The Ways leaders have never been accountable to anyone in the top positions and below that is sheer obedience. The exact same thing happens in their leadership body that happens in all the other cults where the power is similarly unconstrained. A few fat-headed idiots acting Anti Christ and placing themselves in Christs position as the head of the body. The adulation and the money flows upwards. The legalism and demand for obedience flows downward.
I mean even the mere suggestion of moving to a democratically elected governing body got immediate personal phone calls from the BOD marking and avoiding them.
You can look at their pictures and see the fat-headed superior attitudes in their body language towards others in the photos- you don’t even need to listen for the condescending tone directly.
I saw this on Reddit posted by an active Jehovahs Witness regarding their assembly meeting and the teaching of the Governing Body.
This is way funnier than anything I could say so here it is:
—————————————————————-
I took extensive notes at our assembly yesterday, thought I'd share
Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told.
In my experience with The Way (1970-1987), Wierwille's suggestions and outright orders amounted to "Do what you're told."
Many of us loyalists in The Way Corps derived our willingness to obey Wierwille from our belief that when we did what we were told, we were "obeying God." We believed Wierwille spoke for God.
This setup treats mature adults as children. It kept me and other Way Corps especially, stuck in an immature role, not thinking for ourselves, not claiming our own autonomy, not questioning VP. Today, I say he was overbearing and mean.
Added to this, Wierwille called us "his kids." He would say it in a charming way, like when we sat around the campfire in the Way Woods down Wierwille Road. We felt like a family then. BUT he was deliberately setting himself up as a father image and we fell for it. Until some of us woke up to the B.S., and that doesn't stand for Boy Scouts :-)
WE WERE NOT HIS KIDS. We had our own parents.
HE WAS NOT OUR FATHER.
HE WAS A CON ARTIST who used us to promote him as a bible authority and get others to support his organization.
Can you tell I'm worked up this morning? I'm feeling like this because this week I got more messages from victims of Wierwille's insanity, either in the old days or recently in an off-shoot spawned by Wierwille's twisted beliefs and practices.
You may know about the phrase we all used (and MANY innies and off-shoot believers still use): "Dr. Wierwille is our father in the Word." That was so ingrained in many of us (not all) that it locked us into dependence on him, trapped us in a stage of unquestioning obedience to whatever he said the Bible said to do.
We also adopted his opinions about the world and how we should behave in it.
For instance, he taught that The Way represented God's true household of believers because we had "the accuracy of The Word." That fostered the practice of looking down on outsiders. It made us think we were more "spiritual" than they were and we'd get more rewards in heaven if we remained faithful to The Way (give our time, money, resources). As Greasespotters know, this only breeds haughtiness and unkindness to people who did not follow Wierwille--to say the least.
I could go on, but enough already.
Have a good day.
Charlene L. Edge
Author of Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International
Can you tell I'm worked up this morning? I'm feeling like this because this week I got more messages from victims of Wierwille's insanity, either in the old days or recently in an off-shoot spawned by Wierwille's twisted beliefs and practices.
Can you share what happened?
38 minutes ago, penworks said:
You may know about the phrase we all used (and MANY innies and off-shoot believers still use): "Dr. Wierwille is our father in the Word." That was so ingrained in many of us (not all) that it locked us into dependence on him, trapped us in a stage of unquestioning obedience to whatever he said the Bible said to do.
Yes. It was powerful. So powerful that I use it today with my Catholic "mother in Catholicism" who encouraged me to go back there.
Since being so totally taken in and deceived by VPW and TWI I now find myself being very critical of things that people say. When an ad appears on TV my immediate reaction is what is the hook they are using to reel me in.
Especially when someone quotes something they heard via social media, i immediately want to know who is their source? So many on social media are only interested in their 15 minutes of fame and will say about anything.
Always in the back of my mind is the realization I once was tricked by a con man and I do not want to allow this to happen again.
These articles are very helpful to ensure I can make an informed decision about what I am listening to.
I keep those messages confidential. But one thing I can tell you without naming names is one person asked whether I knew if their mother was one of VPW's "girls." I did and I told that person the truth, which they said they already suspected from comments they'd heard directly from their mother, who was a Corps grad. I also know she solicited other women for VPW.
How would you like to hear that about your mother?
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Nathan_Jr
I really despise these euphemisms, but charlatans and criminals wouldn’t leave the house without them. The media seems to have normalized this linguistic apologetic by referring to rape as sexual
Stayed Too Long
Since being so totally taken in and deceived by VPW and TWI I now find myself being very critical of things that people say. When an ad appears on TV my immediate reaction is what is the hook they are
penworks
I admire Jennifer's bravery in sharing her traumatic experiences and related information on Substack. Here's my blog today that includes a link to her post: Speaking of "Way" Stories ... | C
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skyrider
Me too.
I have no interest in going thru something that has been in debate since the Council of Nicaea.
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oldiesman
He didn't say we were supposed to tithe, in fact he specifically said that was one of TWI's inconsistencies i.e. he noted that TWI taught the old testament was not written "to" us but epistles only are "to" us therefore how can TWI teach we must obey it? Good point.
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OldSkool
Cool, thanks for the update!!
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chockfull
Yeah I’m with you on that. It is kind of an interesting discussion
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_controversy
there’s a little more on it - the sides seem to differ over “same substance” and whether or not Jesus had an origin. The councils were voting to unify a position and one side lost and disappeared. Maybe VPs first century schtick had to do with resurrecting what he considered the right side of that argument.
I think they were arguing over different views of the elephant.
They were the best of times. They were the worst of times.
Lol.
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skyrider
Thanks for the link.
I was amused by that fact that this Edict of Thessalonica was issued on February 27 (380 A.D.)... and today, was February 27th. One of those flukes in life, I guess.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Arian controversy was a series of Christian disputes about the nature of Christ that began with a dispute between Arius and Athanasius of Alexandria, two Christian theologians from Alexandria, Egypt. The most important of these controversies concerned the relationship between the substance of God the Father and the substance of His Son.
Emperor Constantine, through the Council of Nicaea in 325, attempted to unite Christianity and establish a single, imperially approved version of the faith. Ironically, his efforts were the cause of the deep divisions created by the disputes after Nicaea.[1][2]
These disagreements divided the Church into various factions for over 55 years, from the time of the First Council of Nicaea in 325 until the First Council of Constantinople in 381. There was no formal schism.
Inside the Roman Empire, the Trinitarian faction ultimately gained the upper hand through the Edict of Thessalonica, issued on 27 February AD 380 by the then reigning three co-Emperors, which made Nicene Christology the state religion of the Roman Empire,[3] and through strict enforcement of that edict. However, outside the Roman Empire, Arianism and other forms of Unitarianism continued to be preached for some time. The modern Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, as well as most other modern Christian sects, have generally followed the Trinitarian formulation, though each has its own specific theology on the matter.
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skyrider
Yes... at this stage of life, I'm not all that interested in some young teacher's dissecting a topic into one box or the other. There is a much wider perspective to consider than just a limited list of one's statement of beliefs. At times, the guy seemed a little too cagey for me. At least, he did stop and take questions after he'd made his insertions and injections. But if the audience is filled with a bunch of other people are steeped in the same doctrine.... not much of a contested environment.
Which, of course..... makes me so thankful for GSC. Here there are a variety of experiences and viewpoints given on any thread. I like this model of thought and feedback.
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chockfull
Sure. I will call out what he does as well.
TWI has on its main website a statement of beliefs that masks what they really do believe and teach by structuring the statement similar to a denominations statement, including the same main elements that they do, and masks the major doctrinal differences with mainstream Christianity.
This is deceptive. This draws the naïve Christian in. This isn’t usually addressed anywhere.
Im not signing people up for his class. I took it though for personal purposes.
I also am thankful for the discussion on GSC.
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Raf
I think it's a great video for what it is, and it doesn't pretend to be something else.
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chockfull
One of the most evil things about these cults is the disciplinary methods and tactics they use. This is a study in gaslighting.
Here is an account of one in the Mormon church:
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chockfull
Here we go. Kingdom Hall storming is becoming a thing!
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chockfull
Dayum. Way Ambassadors you gotta step up your game lol….
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chockfull
https://reddit.com/r/exjw/s/irDTr1rNp3
Everyones on medication. The JWs have a rate of 3x the average population with paranoid schizophrenia disorders. And much higher rates of depression.
And yet they are the one cult that witnesses and proselytizes more than any other cult. If that lifestyle pattern was healthy then you would see different results.
Giving every last minute of their life trying to “baptize” another in their religion and the rest of their thoughts trying to avoid any appearances of evil and disfellowshipping. And a suspicious environment where everyone “tattles” on each other to as high a level of leadership as will give them audience.
I see similar patterns of behavior in The Way International. Especially as it involves leadership functioning and roles.
Want a more abundant life, with 30% higher rates of depression and paranoia? Take the PFAL class.
Ot grow a clue like the young people already are and run as fast as you can in the opposite direction!
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penworks
In Kenya, there's an effort by churches etc. to hold religious leaders to a code of conduct (a good code!). Interesting attempt.
Cult News 101 - CultNEWS101 Library: Church Leaders Roll Out Code of Conduct to Put Rogue Preachers in Check
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Rocky
I'll be curious to know how it works out.
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chockfull
Yes holding leaders accountable or even having them answer to some form of governance and licensing is key to their genuine function. Without that their heads blow up like a watermelon and they start having their greatest concern is their legacy and how God called them directly to not be accountable to anyone.
These are checks and balances. US government has 3 branches of accountability to each other. Now this election cycle that is a real zoo. But it is a check on unconstrained action and power.
The Ways leaders have never been accountable to anyone in the top positions and below that is sheer obedience. The exact same thing happens in their leadership body that happens in all the other cults where the power is similarly unconstrained. A few fat-headed idiots acting Anti Christ and placing themselves in Christs position as the head of the body. The adulation and the money flows upwards. The legalism and demand for obedience flows downward.
I mean even the mere suggestion of moving to a democratically elected governing body got immediate personal phone calls from the BOD marking and avoiding them.
You can look at their pictures and see the fat-headed superior attitudes in their body language towards others in the photos- you don’t even need to listen for the condescending tone directly.
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Twinky
In my perusal of CNN this morning;
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/09/15/us/soldiers-of-christ-south-korean-woman-murder/index.html
Horrendous.
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chockfull
I saw this on Reddit posted by an active Jehovahs Witness regarding their assembly meeting and the teaching of the Governing Body.
This is way funnier than anything I could say so here it is:
—————————————————————-
I took extensive notes at our assembly yesterday, thought I'd share
Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told. Do what you're told.
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penworks
Hilarious but seriously sad.
In my experience with The Way (1970-1987), Wierwille's suggestions and outright orders amounted to "Do what you're told."
Many of us loyalists in The Way Corps derived our willingness to obey Wierwille from our belief that when we did what we were told, we were "obeying God." We believed Wierwille spoke for God.
This setup treats mature adults as children. It kept me and other Way Corps especially, stuck in an immature role, not thinking for ourselves, not claiming our own autonomy, not questioning VP. Today, I say he was overbearing and mean.
Added to this, Wierwille called us "his kids." He would say it in a charming way, like when we sat around the campfire in the Way Woods down Wierwille Road. We felt like a family then. BUT he was deliberately setting himself up as a father image and we fell for it. Until some of us woke up to the B.S., and that doesn't stand for Boy Scouts :-)
WE WERE NOT HIS KIDS. We had our own parents.
HE WAS NOT OUR FATHER.
HE WAS A CON ARTIST who used us to promote him as a bible authority and get others to support his organization.
Can you tell I'm worked up this morning? I'm feeling like this because this week I got more messages from victims of Wierwille's insanity, either in the old days or recently in an off-shoot spawned by Wierwille's twisted beliefs and practices.
You may know about the phrase we all used (and MANY innies and off-shoot believers still use): "Dr. Wierwille is our father in the Word." That was so ingrained in many of us (not all) that it locked us into dependence on him, trapped us in a stage of unquestioning obedience to whatever he said the Bible said to do.
We also adopted his opinions about the world and how we should behave in it.
For instance, he taught that The Way represented God's true household of believers because we had "the accuracy of The Word." That fostered the practice of looking down on outsiders. It made us think we were more "spiritual" than they were and we'd get more rewards in heaven if we remained faithful to The Way (give our time, money, resources). As Greasespotters know, this only breeds haughtiness and unkindness to people who did not follow Wierwille--to say the least.
I could go on, but enough already.
Have a good day.
Charlene L. Edge
Author of Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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oldiesman
Can you share what happened?
Yes. It was powerful. So powerful that I use it today with my Catholic "mother in Catholicism" who encouraged me to go back there.
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Stayed Too Long
Since being so totally taken in and deceived by VPW and TWI I now find myself being very critical of things that people say. When an ad appears on TV my immediate reaction is what is the hook they are using to reel me in.
Especially when someone quotes something they heard via social media, i immediately want to know who is their source? So many on social media are only interested in their 15 minutes of fame and will say about anything.
Always in the back of my mind is the realization I once was tricked by a con man and I do not want to allow this to happen again.
These articles are very helpful to ensure I can make an informed decision about what I am listening to.
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Nathan_Jr
Matt 23:9 (KJV)
And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
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penworks
I keep those messages confidential. But one thing I can tell you without naming names is one person asked whether I knew if their mother was one of VPW's "girls." I did and I told that person the truth, which they said they already suspected from comments they'd heard directly from their mother, who was a Corps grad. I also know she solicited other women for VPW.
How would you like to hear that about your mother?
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Nathan_Jr
Mmmph
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