One of the great things about life post-twi is the options to look at different points of view, consider them in a healthy fashion, and form an opinion rather than have one handed to you.
There's a number of thoughts on different positions with this, and many of them, IMHO, take cheap shots at opposing points of view. I'm not going to pronounce the absolute truth on the matter, but I feel free to outline the major positions and why they're held.
However, I'm going to do that in a Doctrinal thread, and link the thread to here. I think this is a good enough subject to warrant its own thread that belongs in Doctrinal rather than a passing question that would sit in "About the Way." Although the Way- and what it teaches/taught is relevant to the discussion, I think the discussion is bigger than they are.
Sometime between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2, all the unicorns vanished from the face of the planet. No one is sure just why, but the current thinking is that they got left off the ark.
There were green alligators and long-necked geese
Some humpty-back camels and some chimpanzees
Some cats and rats and elephants, but sure as you're born
The loveliest of all was the unicorn
Here is another example of victor contradicting himself. There are hundreds of examples of this kind of error laced throughly throughout "his writings" and recorded sermons. Either he was a liar or just stupid, or both. Either way, he hoped no one would notice or question the dead rabbits pulled from his hat.
If one digs beneath the glowing, seductive, superficial word salad of his "teachings," one can find out. Now, this effort will require a sharp and sturdy tool to penetrate the thick, petrified crust of bullshonta. An infant's fingernail should suffice.
I want to know what the text says. I have no doctrinal agenda. (For a doctrinal perspective, go to WordWolf's excellent discussion of Genesis 1 he started in the Doctrinal forum.)
As far as I can tell, there is no adverb then in Genesis 1:2. There is no textual evidence supporting victor's bloody rabbit. None. NONE. To say there should be is to tip one's hand to using an eisegetical process of "private interpretation" - a method victor CONSTANTLY railed against!
To your point, like the serpent, victor added words to the text ALL THE TIME. As you know, he also deleted words, even entire paragraphs - "Cross it out!" Indeed, there are inauthentic, interpolated words and verses that made it into the Bible, but only those that didn't fit victor's glove were crossed out. And he crossed out added words because he didn't understand how translations work, as in John 19:18.
victor also frequently changed the meaning of words. Partly because he didn't understand how language works and partly as a means to force fit his voodoo into his bloody glove. Further into Genesis at chapter 2 verse 2, he changes the meaning of the Hebrew verb shabbath. He says it means SIT, not REST, and not that it should mean SIT, but that it actually means SIT, because God doesn't need to REST. A complete invention! Total bullshonta! A blatant lie from the mouth of a liar! Shabbath means to cease, to desist, to rest (from labor), to stop working. Period. It never, ever, EVER means to sit.
Here is another example of victor contradicting himself. There are hundreds of examples of this kind of error laced throughly throughout "his writings" and recorded sermons. Either he was a liar or just stupid, or both. Either way, he hoped no one would notice or question the dead rabbits pulled from his hat.
If one digs beneath the glowing, seductive, superficial word salad of his "teachings," one can find out. Now, this effort will require a sharp and sturdy tool to penetrate the thick, petrified crust of bullshonta. An infant's fingernail should suffice.
I want to know what the text says. I have no doctrinal agenda. (For a doctrinal perspective, go to WordWolf's excellent discussion of Genesis 1 he started in the Doctrinal forum.)
As far as I can tell, there is no adverb then in Genesis 1:2. There is no textual evidence supporting victor's bloody rabbit. None. NONE. To say there should be is to tip one's hand to using an eisegetical process of "private interpretation" - a method victor CONSTANTLY railed against!
To your point, like the serpent, victor added words to the text ALL THE TIME. As you know, he also deleted words, even entire paragraphs - "Cross it out!" Indeed, there are inauthentic, interpolated words and verses that made it into the Bible, but only those that didn't fit victor's glove were crossed out. And he crossed out added words because he didn't understand how translations work, as in John 19:18.
victor also frequently changed the meaning of words. Partly because he didn't understand how language works and partly as a means to force fit his voodoo into his bloody glove. Further into Genesis at chapter 2 verse 2, he changes the meaning of the Hebrew verb shabbath. He says it means SIT, not REST, and not that it should mean SIT, but that it actually means SIT, because God doesn't need to REST. A complete invention! Total bullshonta! A blatant lie from the mouth of a liar! Shabbath means to cease, to desist, to rest (from labor), to stop working. Period. It never, ever, EVER means to sit.
So God rested sat on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Did vp explain why God would need (or want) to even sit? I understood the 7th day of creation was a model of what God would later command the Israelites to do no work on the Sabbath so they would solely focus on all God had done for them. Another reason was the Sabbath pointed towards the Messiah's completed work of redemption at which time man would cease needing to keep the law to be right before God.
So why would this "revered man of God" say God simply sat? What was the spiritual significance of God sitting? I don't get it.
So God rested sat on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Did vp explain why God would need (or want) to even sit? I understood the 7th day of creation was a model of what God would later command the Israelites to do no work on the Sabbath so they would solely focus on all God had done for them. Another reason was the Sabbath pointed towards the Messiah's completed work of redemption at which time man would cease needing to keep the law to be right before God.
So why would this "revered man of God" say God simply sat? What was the spiritual significance of God sitting? I don't get it.
Right.
He very briefly and stupidly mentions the Hebrew radicals (the sequence of consonants forming the root of the verb) and that they are the "most difficult radicals in all of Hebrew"... yada yada bull yada shonta... but quickly trails off because he has no fcking clue what he is talking about and then changes the subject to Paul and what he says about Christ sitting at the right hand of God... yada bull yada shonta... therefore, BOOM! Shabath means to sit, not to cease working, because God doesn't need to rest, he sits, Sits, SITS!!.. See, kidz? Math! Accuracy!
Like in so many sermons or "teachings," he mentions something technical (or mundane) that he read once or heard somewhere or imagined in a fantasy but never quite understood, because stupidity, and he regurgitates it incorrectly, hoping his audience won't understand it, either, but will be impressed with the esoterica and just smugly mutter, "Mmmmph."
vp didn't understand genesis (or much) because he didn't understand or even have a clue to what revelations says ===
genesis and revelations are uniquely connected, like all the books
he knew very basic Christian doctrine and mixed it with his phobias
VP started out with a class for helping others regardless of denomination better understand the Bible. When that failed to produce a narcissist level of attention and income he escalated to attacking the other denominations to make himself stand out. He did this on multiple fronts the biggest of which is the Holy Spirit field. To make that pill easier to swallow he spent a lot of time in harmony of the gospels endeavors, with the goal of making himself viewed as the sole authority in the field and all other Biblical scholars as untrustworthy. He himself was not that much of a detail man so he relegated the research detail to teams for Greek and Bernita Jess for Aramaic. He stole BG Leonard’s characters to spice up his class Johnny Jumpup and Maggie Muggins. He plagiarized through straight scribe copying at a motel he checked into for 10 days over 70% of JE Stiles book on the Holy Spirit field. He didn’t have a clue in most theological areas because he was a narcissist whose main interest was not in helping other people but in propping up himself as “The Doctor” a one phrase cult worship title indicating the sole authority on Biblical matters and “father in the Word” which is another scriptural acrobatic used to increase the worship and idolatry toward the person. This culture successfully embedded itself into Way International culture to the point of literally creating brazen images of VPW for every clergy desk and larger than life images created for teaching centers. This culture of idolatry and self serving focus has persisted to this day with the Way International isolating itself off from the rest of the body of Christ and worshipping its top leaders way beyond any Biblical instruction.
At this point they are relegated mostly to foreign mission endeavors in 3rd world countries for the majority of the numbers today. Which brings the irony of VP full circle, as when he was leaving his denomination to start the cult, he wrote a paper criticizing the denomination’s foreign mission work calling it “cultural appropriation”. This attack on his denomination was found out to be a smoke screen thrown up as he was leaving timed to be just ahead of denominational sanctioning for having an affair with his secretary which had become known to his denominational elders.
what happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2? A whole lotta detail filled in mostly by imagination and mans goals.
Thanks for the replies. Growing up in this cult really did a number on me. I was afraid to ask questions and instead of thinkign that was not OK, I thought I was being decieved by Satan and it was him who was putting the questions in my mind. Think about being 9 years old and thinkign Satan himself is weaponizing your thoughts as a way to attack the Way. It's soul crushing. I just wanted the devil to leave me alone. In reality the devil had no interest in me at all. ugh
Short (or long?) lived it was.. the conflict that is..maybe.. this deserves another conversation.. does God play games.. and one must set aside almightness to play.. Mike had a pretty good handle on some of this.
Just to be clear: If you want to answer the question that is the title of this thread, that belongs in doctrinal. If you want to discuss how TWI and VPW approached this subject, that's stays here.
I know I know I know. Ok Johnny Jumpup tell us. So Moses was like in the middle of translating these messages in his head down to hieroglyphics enscribed on animal skins. Then just as he was finishing up 1:1 and moving on to 1:2 his scribe died of colon cancer. He said whatamigonnado? So unlike Joseph Smith who said screw the golden tablets I’m gonna stick my face in a hat and make up some BS, Moses was true to the vision and eventually replaced the scribe and continued on writing Genesis 1:2.
Oh you mean the time between the events described in the verses? Well just about anything could happen.
Some unknown centuries later a flim flam artist from Ohio filled it in with all sorts of imaginative drama. And then his successor not a bright man took even further liberties with imagined stories in Genesis.
Genesis has all sorts of cool stuff in it. Giants. People living 700 years. Human sacrifice. Incest.
But these guys needed their own flair to make $$$$. Snow in July. White and black heart visions. Conspiracy theory. And strange sex.
Gen 1:1 and 1:2 has a gap in it where cult leaders designed screen doors for submarines.
Yeah, well, mogadishu rafa calamari peshwari naan. I would that you all SIT as much as I do.
He said Jesus sits at the right hand of God. God is sitting next to his seated son, Jesus. Neither needs to stop working at any time. They can work while sitting. Neither requires rest because neither gets tired, probably because they are sitting. Though God and Christ are absent, take comfort in knowing that they are sitting down
I know I know I know. Ok Johnny Jumpup tell us. So Moses was like in the middle of translating these messages in his head down to hieroglyphics enscribed on animal skins. Then just as he was finishing up 1:1 and moving on to 1:2 his scribe died of colon cancer. He said whatamigonnado? So unlike Joseph Smith who said screw the golden tablets I’m gonna stick my face in a hat and make up some BS, Moses was true to the vision and eventually replaced the scribe and continued on writing Genesis 1:2.
Oh you mean the time between the events described in the verses? Well just about anything could happen.
Some unknown centuries later a flim flam artist from Ohio filled it in with all sorts of imaginative drama. And then his successor not a bright man took even further liberties with imagined stories in Genesis.
Genesis has all sorts of cool stuff in it. Giants. People living 700 years. Human sacrifice. Incest.
But these guys needed their own flair to make $$$$. Snow in July. White and black heart visions. Conspiracy theory. And strange sex.
Gen 1:1 and 1:2 has a gap in it where cult leaders designed screen doors for submarines.
I like this.. well.. I'd like some strange sex but I'm a tad too old. Joseph Smith.. Joseph Campbell had a better grip on reality. Follow your passion if you don't have to run over too many other human beings or animals to achieve it..
but what did TWI think.. honestly- I'm at the point that I don't even care anymore. What is more relevant is what do I think..
Or you.
Ancient manuscripts.. old creation stories. Where did Moses get them from.. if one accepts the authority of the bible.. perhaps he got them from his early years in Egypt.
I have a few theories.. lots happened before what we consider recorded history. So how would one pass down what we now consider ancient knowledge.. it would have to survive the ravages of time. And the amount of labor and effort would (in my opinion) require a common agreement of those who did the labor.
The pyramids seem to be date stamped and survived the ravages of time.
And explorers are finding pyramids and other structures buried under pyramids and other structures.. I wonder if the older structures are date stamped with current astronomical configurations as well..
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waysider
"These types of things bothered me then but I didn't dare ask."
We were conditioned NOT to ask. Gotta just STAND!...doncha know?
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WordWolf
One of the great things about life post-twi is the options to look at different points of view, consider them in a healthy fashion, and form an opinion rather than have one handed to you.
There's a number of thoughts on different positions with this, and many of them, IMHO, take cheap shots at opposing points of view. I'm not going to pronounce the absolute truth on the matter, but I feel free to outline the major positions and why they're held.
However, I'm going to do that in a Doctrinal thread, and link the thread to here. I think this is a good enough subject to warrant its own thread that belongs in Doctrinal rather than a passing question that would sit in "About the Way." Although the Way- and what it teaches/taught is relevant to the discussion, I think the discussion is bigger than they are.
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WordWolf
I have started addressing this subject/these subjects in the thread, " What Happened in Genesis 1?"
https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25660-what-happened-in-genesis-1/
Time permitting, I will continue addressing it/them.
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waysider
Sometime between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2, all the unicorns vanished from the face of the planet. No one is sure just why, but the current thinking is that they got left off the ark.
Some humpty-back camels and some chimpanzees
Some cats and rats and elephants, but sure as you're born
The loveliest of all was the unicorn
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Nathan_Jr
Here is another example of victor contradicting himself. There are hundreds of examples of this kind of error laced throughly throughout "his writings" and recorded sermons. Either he was a liar or just stupid, or both. Either way, he hoped no one would notice or question the dead rabbits pulled from his hat.
If one digs beneath the glowing, seductive, superficial word salad of his "teachings," one can find out. Now, this effort will require a sharp and sturdy tool to penetrate the thick, petrified crust of bullshonta. An infant's fingernail should suffice.
I want to know what the text says. I have no doctrinal agenda. (For a doctrinal perspective, go to WordWolf's excellent discussion of Genesis 1 he started in the Doctrinal forum.)
As far as I can tell, there is no adverb then in Genesis 1:2. There is no textual evidence supporting victor's bloody rabbit. None. NONE. To say there should be is to tip one's hand to using an eisegetical process of "private interpretation" - a method victor CONSTANTLY railed against!
To your point, like the serpent, victor added words to the text ALL THE TIME. As you know, he also deleted words, even entire paragraphs - "Cross it out!" Indeed, there are inauthentic, interpolated words and verses that made it into the Bible, but only those that didn't fit victor's glove were crossed out. And he crossed out added words because he didn't understand how translations work, as in John 19:18.
victor also frequently changed the meaning of words. Partly because he didn't understand how language works and partly as a means to force fit his voodoo into his bloody glove. Further into Genesis at chapter 2 verse 2, he changes the meaning of the Hebrew verb shabbath. He says it means SIT, not REST, and not that it should mean SIT, but that it actually means SIT, because God doesn't need to REST. A complete invention! Total bullshonta! A blatant lie from the mouth of a liar! Shabbath means to cease, to desist, to rest (from labor), to stop working. Period. It never, ever, EVER means to sit.
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waysider
New bumper stickers!
R.E.S.T. MUCH
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Charity
So God
restedsat on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Did vp explain why God would need (or want) to even sit? I understood the 7th day of creation was a model of what God would later command the Israelites to do no work on the Sabbath so they would solely focus on all God had done for them. Another reason was the Sabbath pointed towards the Messiah's completed work of redemption at which time man would cease needing to keep the law to be right before God.So why would this "revered man of God" say God simply sat? What was the spiritual significance of God sitting? I don't get it.
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Nathan_Jr
Right.
He very briefly and stupidly mentions the Hebrew radicals (the sequence of consonants forming the root of the verb) and that they are the "most difficult radicals in all of Hebrew"... yada yada bull yada shonta... but quickly trails off because he has no fcking clue what he is talking about and then changes the subject to Paul and what he says about Christ sitting at the right hand of God... yada bull yada shonta... therefore, BOOM! Shabath means to sit, not to cease working, because God doesn't need to rest, he sits, Sits, SITS!!.. See, kidz? Math! Accuracy!
Like in so many sermons or "teachings," he mentions something technical (or mundane) that he read once or heard somewhere or imagined in a fantasy but never quite understood, because stupidity, and he regurgitates it incorrectly, hoping his audience won't understand it, either, but will be impressed with the esoterica and just smugly mutter, "Mmmmph."
Short answer: E. Coli-laced word salad.
And he is a charlatan.
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cman
vp didn't understand genesis (or much) because he didn't understand or even have a clue to what revelations says ===
genesis and revelations are uniquely connected, like all the books
he knew very basic Christian doctrine and mixed it with his phobias
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chockfull
VP started out with a class for helping others regardless of denomination better understand the Bible. When that failed to produce a narcissist level of attention and income he escalated to attacking the other denominations to make himself stand out. He did this on multiple fronts the biggest of which is the Holy Spirit field. To make that pill easier to swallow he spent a lot of time in harmony of the gospels endeavors, with the goal of making himself viewed as the sole authority in the field and all other Biblical scholars as untrustworthy. He himself was not that much of a detail man so he relegated the research detail to teams for Greek and Bernita Jess for Aramaic. He stole BG Leonard’s characters to spice up his class Johnny Jumpup and Maggie Muggins. He plagiarized through straight scribe copying at a motel he checked into for 10 days over 70% of JE Stiles book on the Holy Spirit field. He didn’t have a clue in most theological areas because he was a narcissist whose main interest was not in helping other people but in propping up himself as “The Doctor” a one phrase cult worship title indicating the sole authority on Biblical matters and “father in the Word” which is another scriptural acrobatic used to increase the worship and idolatry toward the person. This culture successfully embedded itself into Way International culture to the point of literally creating brazen images of VPW for every clergy desk and larger than life images created for teaching centers. This culture of idolatry and self serving focus has persisted to this day with the Way International isolating itself off from the rest of the body of Christ and worshipping its top leaders way beyond any Biblical instruction.
At this point they are relegated mostly to foreign mission endeavors in 3rd world countries for the majority of the numbers today. Which brings the irony of VP full circle, as when he was leaving his denomination to start the cult, he wrote a paper criticizing the denomination’s foreign mission work calling it “cultural appropriation”. This attack on his denomination was found out to be a smoke screen thrown up as he was leaving timed to be just ahead of denominational sanctioning for having an affair with his secretary which had become known to his denominational elders.
what happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2? A whole lotta detail filled in mostly by imagination and mans goals.
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Junior Corps Surviver
Thanks for the replies. Growing up in this cult really did a number on me. I was afraid to ask questions and instead of thinkign that was not OK, I thought I was being decieved by Satan and it was him who was putting the questions in my mind. Think about being 9 years old and thinkign Satan himself is weaponizing your thoughts as a way to attack the Way. It's soul crushing. I just wanted the devil to leave me alone. In reality the devil had no interest in me at all. ugh
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Ham
What happened between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
Generally speaking- the Victors of any conflict pretty much write the history. I don't know if there were any victors in this particular conflict..
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Ham
Short (or long?) lived it was.. the conflict that is..maybe.. this deserves another conversation.. does God play games.. and one must set aside almightness to play.. Mike had a pretty good handle on some of this.
I should say has. Don't think he is expired yet.
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modcat5
Just to be clear: If you want to answer the question that is the title of this thread, that belongs in doctrinal. If you want to discuss how TWI and VPW approached this subject, that's stays here.
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chockfull
I know I know I know. Ok Johnny Jumpup tell us. So Moses was like in the middle of translating these messages in his head down to hieroglyphics enscribed on animal skins. Then just as he was finishing up 1:1 and moving on to 1:2 his scribe died of colon cancer. He said whatamigonnado? So unlike Joseph Smith who said screw the golden tablets I’m gonna stick my face in a hat and make up some BS, Moses was true to the vision and eventually replaced the scribe and continued on writing Genesis 1:2.
Oh you mean the time between the events described in the verses? Well just about anything could happen.
Some unknown centuries later a flim flam artist from Ohio filled it in with all sorts of imaginative drama. And then his successor not a bright man took even further liberties with imagined stories in Genesis.
Genesis has all sorts of cool stuff in it. Giants. People living 700 years. Human sacrifice. Incest.
But these guys needed their own flair to make $$$$. Snow in July. White and black heart visions. Conspiracy theory. And strange sex.
Gen 1:1 and 1:2 has a gap in it where cult leaders designed screen doors for submarines.
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Allan
What happened ?...the same thing thats going to happen very shortly...His- story sure has a way of repeating itself at times huh :)
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Twinky
Lol, God SITS! Speaks in Tongues! He SITs!! What else could this mean?
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Nathan_Jr
Yeah, well, mogadishu rafa calamari peshwari naan. I would that you all SIT as much as I do.
He said Jesus sits at the right hand of God. God is sitting next to his seated son, Jesus. Neither needs to stop working at any time. They can work while sitting. Neither requires rest because neither gets tired, probably because they are sitting. Though God and Christ are absent, take comfort in knowing that they are sitting down
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waysider
Glowwry! Isn't that wuuuunderful?
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Ham
I like this.. well.. I'd like some strange sex but I'm a tad too old. Joseph Smith.. Joseph Campbell had a better grip on reality. Follow your passion if you don't have to run over too many other human beings or animals to achieve it..
but what did TWI think.. honestly- I'm at the point that I don't even care anymore. What is more relevant is what do I think..
Or you.
Ancient manuscripts.. old creation stories. Where did Moses get them from.. if one accepts the authority of the bible.. perhaps he got them from his early years in Egypt.
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Ham
I have a few theories.. lots happened before what we consider recorded history. So how would one pass down what we now consider ancient knowledge.. it would have to survive the ravages of time. And the amount of labor and effort would (in my opinion) require a common agreement of those who did the labor.
The pyramids seem to be date stamped and survived the ravages of time.
And explorers are finding pyramids and other structures buried under pyramids and other structures.. I wonder if the older structures are date stamped with current astronomical configurations as well..
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waysider
here
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Nathan_Jr
So good!
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