Reading that post was like looking into the face of God, and him saying, "You are my beautiful child." Well played.
Under the wayfer system:
If you leave twi/adhering to vpw beliefs, the adversary will attack your life and eventually kill you, your kids, and your goldfish. Worst of all, he will take your eternal rewards, and you won't get to ride on an eternal Cushman. You'll be scrubbing toilets and choping firewood nonstop forever, with an already renewed mind of course.
Now, the adversary can't take your eternal life, no matter how hard you try to rid yourself of it. Playing bumper golf carts for eternity can only be enjoyable for so long. And wearing crowns is sooo last millenium.
So, since wayworld is an eternal given, was anyone really scared of death? Or at least, was scared at first, but after a few years of this malarky, just didn't give a hoot?
Well, when I was in Wayworld, I wasn't scared of death.....But I will tell you leaving TWI, I feared the worst would happen to me. I was relieved to leave, but at the same time, fearful. I had no outside friends. I had no family so to speak because I was the one who walked away from them. And I was afraid that bad things would happen to me because they said things would happen if you left and walked away.
And so, when I got a very, deadly disease, I had to wonder if it wasn't because I left the ministry. Fortunately, in spite of the fact I was given the Death sentence by the Dr.....I had a miracle and was healed! praise God! That's when I knew God was "outside" of Way world and He wasn't angry with me. It was a scary period of time in my life, and God was with me all the time, I just didn't know it at first.
yes, I was afraid... when I stopped tithing, and when I severed ties. I was less afraid of my own death, and much more afraid for my kids. intellectually, I knew that the fear wasn't reasonable... but I'd been conditioned for so long, the emotional terror was quite real.
Although I never said so out loud, I thought that the TWI vision of the afterlife had more detail than what you could reasonably find in the bible. The doctrine about losing rewards balanced on a lot of assumptions about what certain verses meant. As I recall Martindale would say "It says that you can't lose eternal life, but it doesn't say that you can't lose rewards". Yeah, but it doesn't say that you can lose them either, nor is it real specific about what those rewards are exactly. It seems like TWI leaders had to dig hard to find places in the bible to back up their belief that there were (eternal) consequenses to being a Christian that didn't hang out with TWI. I never realy thought that they adquately made their case, so I wasn't any more afraid of death than anybody else in this world, and being "out of fellowship" or leaving TWI didn't make me any more or less afraid.
I wasn't really afraid of being a "greasespot by midnight" either. Any fear that I had was of being cut off from a group that at one time I thought was the only one accurately teaching the bible. When I finally was kicked out I had left TWI teachings so far behind that there wasn't any fear then either
I was told my family would die now that we were outside the household of Zion, the whole shebang about being a greasespot by midnight. Pretty funny, they said we walked away, but they threw us out, really.
They also told me not to come on their headquarters cause they had armed guards with our pictures on them and would shoot us.
Someone I knew was told the adversary would get them before they got back home to family when they were marked and avoided and sent halfway across the country all alone after being threatened with devil possession and death.
Not only for myself, but for the safety and well being of my family as well.
Imagine having this droned into you for years and then being kicked out of The Corps or Fellow Laborers, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere. There are people here who have first hand experience with that scenario.
Now here's a bit of a twist on the subject.
How did you feel when you eventually realized that you had been fooling yourself into thinking that you could "believe" or SIT yourself out of harm's way? Have you ever looked back on the absurd expectations you tried to "believe" for? Ever try to "believe" that a job would work out, or a serious illness or perhaps a marriage? Might as well have gone to the local shopping mall and tossed a handful of coins in the fountain.
If there really are rewards, we will probably all get a few just for finally realizing that all we really walked out on was a two-bit cult not some Godly endeavor.
If there really are rewards, we will probably all get a few just for finally realizing that all we really walked out on was a two-bit cult not some Godly endeavor.
amen, waysider. if God really is love, then he heaves a sigh of relief for everyone who is freed from that horrible life.
Nah, never gave it a moment's thought as I recall.
I'd had serious doubts about the veracity of religion in general and the "Bible" specifically long before I got involved with WayWorld. Once I'd figured out that they were as full of "it" as any other denomination or sect (and maybe a lot more so), I pretty much walked away and never looked back.
The only hard thing for me to figure out was what KEPT me staying around that looney bin for as long as I did. For THAT I still don't have a real good answer...
The thought of death and afterlife wasn't much of a motivator for me while in TWI. It's even less now. My upbringing was centered around the spiritual world, namely the mystical, so I found TWI's take on the spirit realm interesting.
Where I probably diverged from TWI thinking was that I believed GOD provided the hedge of protection, not adherence to TWI's rules.
No I was not afraid of death when leaving TWI. My relationship with God and Jesus Christ existed prior to TWI involvement and will continue afterwards. It was not defined by TWI. In fact, the growing diversity between the truth written in my heart defined by that relationship and the goods peddled by TWI made it evidently and progressively more clear that TWI is not genuine Christianity. So leaving did not bring fear of death, but trusting life and He who created it.
TWI had one thing right - man's greatest enemy is fear. I still remember one of Donnie Fugit's teachings "You know what man's greatest enemy is? Sand..." God rest his soul, he had some passion at least, different from the drivel of teachings today in TWI. Fear is goods sold and promoted by the adversary. Trust and grace are from God. The funny twist is the abuse angle. TWI instills the fear by their practices, then blames the person for being afraid, saying the fear inside of themselves is their fault.
You know who really should be afraid? The leadership of TWI, when the Lord Jesus Christ returns and we are standing right with him shoulder to shoulder with him demanding accountability for their lives and actions as Christians. Then their petty positions and earthly abusive authority will have no bearing and they will remain on their face before him ashamed.
The only hard thing for me to figure out was what KEPT me staying around that looney bin for as long as I did. For THAT I still don't have a real good answer...
Amen to that!
I'm coming up on my 10th anniversary of the day they kicked me out. I still feel like a monkey is off my back.
Where I probably diverged from TWI thinking was that I believed GOD provided the hedge of protection, not adherence to TWI's rules.
In my opinion, this is a critical observation.
When I took *PLAF* (The Wonder Class) in--1972?, the concept du jour was that we now had knowledge of "The Mystery", which is "Christ in you, the hope of glowwree!"---- ie:Christ was present anywhere you were present.
This was supposedly such privileged information that the adversary would have never allowed Jesus to be crucified if he had known it. (Session #5 seems like the place this was stressed.)
The idea was that "the adversary" was hell bent on keeping the mystery from being known by any more people. So, if you left The Way, which represented the epicenter of all that spiritually mattered, (cough) the adversary would try anything to get you to forget about the mystery or from divulging it to others.--- anything up to and including death.
Now what would you give for it?
But wait!! There's more!!
By simply remaining yoked together with "like minded believers", God was able to generate a magical force field around you and your loved ones, which was known to TWI-sters as "the hedge of protection". Walking away from those who held this common knowledge, ("the one true household"), was equivalent to tightrope walking without a net. And don't forget, SIT was a major part of it, too, because VeePeePee taught in the Advanced Class that revelation was only available to those who spoke in tongues much on a daily basis. And, of course, revelation was an absolute necessity if one were to outwit "the old bird". Vp even said it was a "prerequisite". (That is #3 in the Keys To Walking By The Spirit chart that appears on page 10 of the AC silly-bus. (1971)
My point is that it the whole concept became rather convoluted. Eventually it was simplified into the belief that leaving TWI could result in death. I never bought into that particular variation of the concept.
I think vepee showed his fear of death when he taught on fear and believing equals/is receiving.
After I was out of twi and spinoffs I once tried explaining to someone what the twi belief was regarding believing and death, this person was a christian, who worked in a dangerous profession where there was 15% attrition due to death on the job annually. I told him twi taught that if you die it is directly related to a person failing to believe or death being a result of not believing, he was aghast we'd been taught that. He had personally gotten out of many situations that should have killed him but he walked away unscathed which he attributed to God guiding him and saving his butt. He could not believe a preacher would teach such a harmful doctrine wholescale to all who followed. I felt bad that I had ever swallowed that drivel from wierewille and believed it...
Thank God in my lifetime, it was God who saved my butt countless times, not wierwille, not vepee's doctines.
I think vepee was showing his snakely soft white underbelly in this one, he was afraid of death and judgement since he alone knew what sick, perverted acts he had participated in, and he knew better than anyone else that his career was based on adulterating and beguiling gullable and vulnerable young people and knew that he himself was a false preacher, a wolf, armed with a self serving doctrine and was not in the business of teaching the words and intent of God Almighty.
Honestly for several years before I left, I prayed for death. Often. It just seemed like a much easier way out of the trap of The Way. I didn't fear dying from leaving. I feared living through it. At some point, I don't recall when, it occurred to me how ridiculous that was to feel that way. I realized there was nothing they could truly do to hurt me, and that my freedom was more important to me than anything else, even family. It took a few years to sort out, but I am happily out of that mess now.
Afraid that I was doing the wrong thing, that I was 'ticking God off' with my choices. That I would totally screw up the rest of my life and my kid's life...
Definitely afraid.
That's what they had taught me: a distrust of my own gut feelings and a terrible fear of going against what "they" said.
I did not fear any of this but did think about it. My greatest concern was rebuilding my life and learning to live in the real world not the fantasy world of TWI. I have been out for 7 years now and it just gets easier and better each year. I am so glad I got out when I did and wish I would have left sooner.
God continues to bless my life, It is not based on being in the Way or any other organization or even if I ABS or not. Don’t get me wrong it hasn’t been easy but I have learned a lot in the process and am better off for it.
I have been out for 7 years now and it just gets easier and better each year. I am so glad I got out when I did and wish I would have left sooner.
God continues to bless my life, It is not based on being in the Way or any other organization or even if I ABS or not. Don’t get me wrong it hasn’t been easy but I have learned a lot in the process and am better off for it.
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shortfuse
Reading that post was like looking into the face of God, and him saying, "You are my beautiful child." Well played.
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newlife
Well, when I was in Wayworld, I wasn't scared of death.....But I will tell you leaving TWI, I feared the worst would happen to me. I was relieved to leave, but at the same time, fearful. I had no outside friends. I had no family so to speak because I was the one who walked away from them. And I was afraid that bad things would happen to me because they said things would happen if you left and walked away.
And so, when I got a very, deadly disease, I had to wonder if it wasn't because I left the ministry. Fortunately, in spite of the fact I was given the Death sentence by the Dr.....I had a miracle and was healed! praise God! That's when I knew God was "outside" of Way world and He wasn't angry with me. It was a scary period of time in my life, and God was with me all the time, I just didn't know it at first.
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potato
yes, I was afraid... when I stopped tithing, and when I severed ties. I was less afraid of my own death, and much more afraid for my kids. intellectually, I knew that the fear wasn't reasonable... but I'd been conditioned for so long, the emotional terror was quite real.
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Watered Garden
Honestly? Yes and no. I thought I would die right away. God had already punished me with a chronic illness for an unknown sin.
Now, I wonder when I will die if I'll go to hell for leaving. That's a little worse than death, I guess.
WG
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rascal
Yup
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Ham
Might sound weird.. when I exited, the fears fell like scales from my eyes.
I figured "hell" or losing rewards.. it had to be better than what twi had to offer..
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Oakspear
Although I never said so out loud, I thought that the TWI vision of the afterlife had more detail than what you could reasonably find in the bible. The doctrine about losing rewards balanced on a lot of assumptions about what certain verses meant. As I recall Martindale would say "It says that you can't lose eternal life, but it doesn't say that you can't lose rewards". Yeah, but it doesn't say that you can lose them either, nor is it real specific about what those rewards are exactly. It seems like TWI leaders had to dig hard to find places in the bible to back up their belief that there were (eternal) consequenses to being a Christian that didn't hang out with TWI. I never realy thought that they adquately made their case, so I wasn't any more afraid of death than anybody else in this world, and being "out of fellowship" or leaving TWI didn't make me any more or less afraid.
I wasn't really afraid of being a "greasespot by midnight" either. Any fear that I had was of being cut off from a group that at one time I thought was the only one accurately teaching the bible. When I finally was kicked out I had left TWI teachings so far behind that there wasn't any fear then either
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bowtwi
I was told my family would die now that we were outside the household of Zion, the whole shebang about being a greasespot by midnight. Pretty funny, they said we walked away, but they threw us out, really.
They also told me not to come on their headquarters cause they had armed guards with our pictures on them and would shoot us.
Someone I knew was told the adversary would get them before they got back home to family when they were marked and avoided and sent halfway across the country all alone after being threatened with devil possession and death.
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waysider
Not only for myself, but for the safety and well being of my family as well.
Imagine having this droned into you for years and then being kicked out of The Corps or Fellow Laborers, in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere. There are people here who have first hand experience with that scenario.
Now here's a bit of a twist on the subject.
How did you feel when you eventually realized that you had been fooling yourself into thinking that you could "believe" or SIT yourself out of harm's way? Have you ever looked back on the absurd expectations you tried to "believe" for? Ever try to "believe" that a job would work out, or a serious illness or perhaps a marriage? Might as well have gone to the local shopping mall and tossed a handful of coins in the fountain.
If there really are rewards, we will probably all get a few just for finally realizing that all we really walked out on was a two-bit cult not some Godly endeavor.
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skyrider
Fear of death?...........not really.
I waited to see if twi's voodoo had any punch to it...........nope.
<_<
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potato
amen, waysider. if God really is love, then he heaves a sigh of relief for everyone who is freed from that horrible life.
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ljn698
ya know sumpin,
this whole adversary's gonna get you thing
probably would have carried a little more weight
had it been advanced by people who
did NOT wake up an entire WAYCORP class at 3:00 AM
and demand their signitures on a LOYALTY OATH
under pain of immediate expulsion
or
people who were NOT so easily recognizable as
DO as I SAY NOT as I DO types in general
or maybe people who DID NOT immediately
change the subject or worse yet
blow people off outright when one of those
"uncomfortable questions" was asked
you know, one of those soup to nuts things
and a whole lotta other stuff
that hundreds of other folks have related
over the years since
therefore, fretting about the loss of God's protection
just for not being a dedicated TWI follower anymore
seemed like worrying over nothing to me.
however I certainly admire the guts
that some of you guys had
and still have
after sticking with TWI for so long and
then getting kicked out for some
petty reason or another
to pick up and start anew
in a whole new atmosphere
where almost nobody has ever even heard of TWI
and even fewer people
consider them anything more than
a blip on the GODSTUFF radar.
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George Aar
Nah, never gave it a moment's thought as I recall.
I'd had serious doubts about the veracity of religion in general and the "Bible" specifically long before I got involved with WayWorld. Once I'd figured out that they were as full of "it" as any other denomination or sect (and maybe a lot more so), I pretty much walked away and never looked back.
The only hard thing for me to figure out was what KEPT me staying around that looney bin for as long as I did. For THAT I still don't have a real good answer...
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Tzaia
The thought of death and afterlife wasn't much of a motivator for me while in TWI. It's even less now. My upbringing was centered around the spiritual world, namely the mystical, so I found TWI's take on the spirit realm interesting.
Where I probably diverged from TWI thinking was that I believed GOD provided the hedge of protection, not adherence to TWI's rules.
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chockfull
No I was not afraid of death when leaving TWI. My relationship with God and Jesus Christ existed prior to TWI involvement and will continue afterwards. It was not defined by TWI. In fact, the growing diversity between the truth written in my heart defined by that relationship and the goods peddled by TWI made it evidently and progressively more clear that TWI is not genuine Christianity. So leaving did not bring fear of death, but trusting life and He who created it.
TWI had one thing right - man's greatest enemy is fear. I still remember one of Donnie Fugit's teachings "You know what man's greatest enemy is? Sand..." God rest his soul, he had some passion at least, different from the drivel of teachings today in TWI. Fear is goods sold and promoted by the adversary. Trust and grace are from God. The funny twist is the abuse angle. TWI instills the fear by their practices, then blames the person for being afraid, saying the fear inside of themselves is their fault.
You know who really should be afraid? The leadership of TWI, when the Lord Jesus Christ returns and we are standing right with him shoulder to shoulder with him demanding accountability for their lives and actions as Christians. Then their petty positions and earthly abusive authority will have no bearing and they will remain on their face before him ashamed.
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outintexas
Amen to that!
I'm coming up on my 10th anniversary of the day they kicked me out. I still feel like a monkey is off my back.
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waysider
In my opinion, this is a critical observation.
When I took *PLAF* (The Wonder Class) in--1972?, the concept du jour was that we now had knowledge of "The Mystery", which is "Christ in you, the hope of glowwree!"---- ie:Christ was present anywhere you were present.
This was supposedly such privileged information that the adversary would have never allowed Jesus to be crucified if he had known it. (Session #5 seems like the place this was stressed.)
The idea was that "the adversary" was hell bent on keeping the mystery from being known by any more people. So, if you left The Way, which represented the epicenter of all that spiritually mattered, (cough) the adversary would try anything to get you to forget about the mystery or from divulging it to others.--- anything up to and including death.
Now what would you give for it?
But wait!! There's more!!
By simply remaining yoked together with "like minded believers", God was able to generate a magical force field around you and your loved ones, which was known to TWI-sters as "the hedge of protection". Walking away from those who held this common knowledge, ("the one true household"), was equivalent to tightrope walking without a net. And don't forget, SIT was a major part of it, too, because VeePeePee taught in the Advanced Class that revelation was only available to those who spoke in tongues much on a daily basis. And, of course, revelation was an absolute necessity if one were to outwit "the old bird". Vp even said it was a "prerequisite". (That is #3 in the Keys To Walking By The Spirit chart that appears on page 10 of the AC silly-bus. (1971)
My point is that it the whole concept became rather convoluted. Eventually it was simplified into the belief that leaving TWI could result in death. I never bought into that particular variation of the concept.
*PLAF* = Puke, Loogey And Flatulence
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now I see
I think vepee showed his fear of death when he taught on fear and believing equals/is receiving.
After I was out of twi and spinoffs I once tried explaining to someone what the twi belief was regarding believing and death, this person was a christian, who worked in a dangerous profession where there was 15% attrition due to death on the job annually. I told him twi taught that if you die it is directly related to a person failing to believe or death being a result of not believing, he was aghast we'd been taught that. He had personally gotten out of many situations that should have killed him but he walked away unscathed which he attributed to God guiding him and saving his butt. He could not believe a preacher would teach such a harmful doctrine wholescale to all who followed. I felt bad that I had ever swallowed that drivel from wierewille and believed it...
Thank God in my lifetime, it was God who saved my butt countless times, not wierwille, not vepee's doctines.
I think vepee was showing his snakely soft white underbelly in this one, he was afraid of death and judgement since he alone knew what sick, perverted acts he had participated in, and he knew better than anyone else that his career was based on adulterating and beguiling gullable and vulnerable young people and knew that he himself was a false preacher, a wolf, armed with a self serving doctrine and was not in the business of teaching the words and intent of God Almighty.
...just my opinion..
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Twinky
Some great insights on this thread...
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sirguessalot
sad as this feels...i cant help but write
for what feels like the 100th time
cult or culture
if the twi system was/is/will be at the cutting edge of any wave of spirituallity
it was/is/will be in the spirituallity of avoiding and rejecting most all forms death and dying
as well as avoiding most any and all types and kinds of suffering or loss or grief
including all those other important little deaths we face in life
on our way from the womb to the tomb
"are the dead alive now?" seems the clearest doctrinal expression of this in TWI
but twi is not so special or unique in this regard
in spite of all our gifts to the world
for the past century much of our western world has already been boiling in a cultural and social flight from death
weve created an exotic array of magical myths and secrets of eternal fantastic health and wealth
and are often terrorized at the thought of the loss of our stuff and things ... especially our egos and mental jewelry
our interests are mostly clearly severely divorced from most any recorded history or lineage or language of practical experience in dying
particularly in ways that allow development of
presence
stillness
listening
trust
inquiry
freedom
respect
civility
dialogue
and such
which are at the root of all true good and beautiful
religions
sciences
spirituality
medicine
counsel
friendship
love
life
change
rebirth
art
and such
believe it or not...some good news ive found
is that not only the history of christianity richly laced with veins of evidence of such arts of dying
but so are pretty much all the other old and very old religious traditions
especially rich are times of great equalizing loss and change that great interfaith movements developed
...like there are now
perhaps from having recognized something bloody red mutual in the arts of dying
that is both beyond and includes everyone's more ethnocentered values
in the so-called dark ages, for example
prior to this distorted retarded backwards relationship we now have between so-called business and so-called medicine
and even prior to the great psychological split we call "the enlightenment"
jews, christians, muslims, celts and others planted the seeds of our modern hospital systems all over europe
leaving a legacy of womb to tomb service
not magical powers to control the universe and make it change
but the freedom to celebrate each and every change
as we are being pushed and pulled along
naked and unashamed
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shortfuse
Honestly for several years before I left, I prayed for death. Often. It just seemed like a much easier way out of the trap of The Way. I didn't fear dying from leaving. I feared living through it. At some point, I don't recall when, it occurred to me how ridiculous that was to feel that way. I realized there was nothing they could truly do to hurt me, and that my freedom was more important to me than anything else, even family. It took a few years to sort out, but I am happily out of that mess now.
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TheHighWay
I wasn't afraid of dying... no.
But I was afraid.
VERY afraid.
Afraid that I was doing the wrong thing, that I was 'ticking God off' with my choices. That I would totally screw up the rest of my life and my kid's life...
Definitely afraid.
That's what they had taught me: a distrust of my own gut feelings and a terrible fear of going against what "they" said.
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MountainTopCO
I did not fear any of this but did think about it. My greatest concern was rebuilding my life and learning to live in the real world not the fantasy world of TWI. I have been out for 7 years now and it just gets easier and better each year. I am so glad I got out when I did and wish I would have left sooner.
God continues to bless my life, It is not based on being in the Way or any other organization or even if I ABS or not. Don’t get me wrong it hasn’t been easy but I have learned a lot in the process and am better off for it.
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TheHighWay
EXACTLY!!!
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