It's stupid to even consider that someone could do that ... if anyone could have done it, it would have been Jesus Christ ... but even he was tempted by the devil. You will note he replied, "It is written..." not "You're not on my schedule for the day." Just absurd arrogance on the part of TWI leaders.
Plan the adverary out of your life, speak in tongues much, fill your mind with endless retemories-----
It all accomplishes the same end. It keeps your mind so occupied with mental busy work that you don't have time to objectively consider the big picture.
IF you buy the whole ball of wax: including - anything in the real world can be seen by the adversary.
You have just shown your hand to the adversary AND your TC AND your mother in law.
If you want to keep somebody off your tail, don't do the same thing in the same way with no variation. Write down a plan, if you want....and follow it most of the time, but once and a while don't follow it exactly and you retain an element of surprise.
I maintain that there is an adversary, although not framed the same way as twi did. I also maintain that some of the spiritual "rules" are valid. but likewise in the same category as the adversary [please don't press me on this....it's not fully formed in my mind] Therefore, within the confines of this post....I maintain that twi set all up for any and all "attacks"....and...when Greasespot-ness was guaranteed by spittle from the horse's - er jackass' mouth it was the old Girl's Volleyball rules...set up and pass...touble tap. Once they tapped you over the net, into the view of whomever ...you were already doomed. So I also maintain that their evil came/comes in many flavors.
Planning the adversary out of your life is an incredibly egotistical elitist type of statement from deluded Christians. It's representative of the ego and elitism wrapped up in TWI.
I don't know why ,but lately I have been thinking about the absurdity of that statement "plan the adversary out of your life".I used to hear it alot when I went to twi,don't get me wrong I think it's good to have a plan,but think about the arrogance of this statement.
I'm pretty clueless about these things, but I'm interested what people think.
So then...three questions:
1. Isn't it TWI doctrine that this is the adversary's world? -- that God is not in control? (And if the adversary is in control then doesn't it follow that the adversary permeates everything and is thus inescapable?)
2. Is secular music (i.e., pop, rock, blues, r&b) of the adversary? (If so, how do you know?)
3. Is the adversary in cancer cells? (Or only in healthy, non-cancer cells?)
I'm not trying to be sarcastic with these questions (although I might classify them as somewhat pointed). It's just that when people start talking about a "devil", I wonder what they suppose the nature of this devil might be. John 10:10 doesn't give us a lot of detail.
I'm pretty clueless about these things, but I'm interested what people think.
So then...three questions:
1. Isn't it TWI doctrine that this is the adversary's world? -- that God is not in control? (And if the adversary is in control then doesn't it follow that the adversary permeates everything and is thus inescapable?)
2. Is secular music (i.e., pop, rock, blues, r&b) of the adversary? (If so, how do you know?)
3. Is the adversary in cancer cells? (Or only in healthy, non-cancer cells?)
I'm not trying to be sarcastic with these questions (although I might classify them as somewhat pointed). It's just that when people start talking about a "devil", I wonder what they suppose the nature of this devil might be. John 10:10 doesn't give us a lot of detail.
I'll try, soul searcher, but remember, TWI doctrine is built out of thousands of tiny little pieces, put together like a leggo robot.
Q.#1 Yes, Twi doctrine maintains that the devil (the "adversary") controls the "senses/natural" world. Do you remember an old song called, "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands"? Way theology maintained that the song was talking about the devil, not God or Jesus. I guess you were supposed to feel spiritually mature (ie: smug) if you realized the "real' meaning of the song. Now, the only way to "escape" the adversary was to stay in "the one true household of God" (read:The Way)because God had a hedge of protection erected around it. Of course, there were other requirements, such as renewed mind and speaking in tongues, also, that went along with that.
Q.#2 Much secular music was labeled "devilish" because it supposedly carried subliminal /ambiguous meanings, meant to trick you out of The Word. An example would be a song like
. Since, according to Way thinking, "what you confess is what you possess", by singing these words, you were subconsciously giving control to the adversary. Didn't too much matter what the song was, they always found some "deper, spiritual" meaning to the lyrics Also, Wierwille said that artistic virtuosity of any sort was only obtainable through "selling out", either to the devil or to God. Naturally, that meant you had to forego secular influences and focus exclusively on Way sanctioned art.
Q.#3 Wierwille taught that cancer was caused by devil possession. I'm not sure I ever heard him talk about it being at a cellular, biological level. I mean, you were either possessed or you weren't. That's a spiritual thing, not an anatomical thing.
don't know why ,but lately I have been thinking about the absurdity of that statement "plan the adversary out of your life".
I dont know if his is exactly on topic but for my money I have never ever seen another group of people anywhere that was so
obsessed with devils as TWI. Looking back on it now is incredibly bizarre.
I dont know what it was all about--whether it was a response to all the dark repressions stuffed by way doctrines... all the masked internal fears filtering through disturbed minds or what it was, but it was clinical insane and at times was like agroup psychosis
I'll try, soul searcher, but remember, TWI doctrine is built out of thousands of tiny little pieces, put together like a leggo robot.
I have three young boys who love Leggos so I know how messy it can be with all those thousands of little pieces all over the place. lol
Q.#2 Much secular music was labeled "devilish" because it supposedly carried subliminal /ambiguous meanings, meant to trick you out of The Word. An example would be a song like
.
I love that song.
Since, according to Way thinking, "what you confess is what you possess", by singing these words, you were subconsciously giving control to the adversary. Didn't too much matter what the song was, they always found some "deper, spiritual" meaning to the lyrics Also, Wierwille said that artistic virtuosity of any sort was only obtainable through "selling out", either to the devil or to God. Naturally, that meant you had to forego secular influences and focus exclusively on Way sanctioned art.
"Way-sanctioned" art? Hee-hee! What nonsense.
I'm curious as to how one can identify which songs have hidden "subliminal" messages from the adversary. Could it be the ones that cause hip-shakin' and the ol' "backbone slip"?
I hated fellowship (twig). Only stupid people go to twig fellowship.
Remember having to turn in a schedule every sunday of what you did (in 15 minute intervals) for the past week and what you planned to do the next week?
Those stupid schedules ruined so many plans. How many years you couldn't take action on anything because it wasn't written is some @$#&%!! plan!!
Thank goodness this madness of the weekly plan didn't set in till after I'd been kicked out. I'd never have survived. I'm a hopeless timekeeper, am frequently late for things, and love dealing with things that happen spontaneously. Which doesn't mean I can't keep to a timetable when I need to, or that I don't have a plan. Just that what I plan has flexibility to deal with the unexpected., and I don't burden myself with unnecessary deadlines (like, always being at least 10 mins early for anything; if you weren't, you were "late").
But if I'd had a "plan," in fact I'd never have followed through with the person who witnessed to me (hey, that may be a good reason for having a plan!!) because there would have been no time in the schedule.
Come to think of it...
Would Jesus have found time to speak to all the people he did, if he'd had a plan in 15 minute slots? The Samaritan woman at the well? Zachaeus? Healing all those sick people? What would his schedule have said?
7-8 am Go to temple for worship
8-9 am Wander around market place looking for sick people to heal
9-9.15 am Talk to man up tree. Decline dinner invitation but re-schedule for two weeks hence
Remember having to turn in a schedule every sunday of what you did (in 15 minute intervals) for the past week and what you planned to do the next week?
While I remember having to do those stupid schedules.. I guess I wasn't "sold" on their purpose or benefit, thus, mine never reflected anything but what I thought they wanted to see, and then went about life as usual. That went on for what, 5 years of stupid meaningless schedules. Right up to the point when I put my final plan into action for planning the adversary out of my life, leaving TWI! And they think I'm going to submit that in my schedule to them?! lol
Would Jesus have found time to speak to all the people he did, if he'd had a plan in 15 minute slots? The Samaritan woman at the well? Zachaeus? Healing all those sick people? What would his schedule have said?
7-8 am Go to temple for worship
8-9 am Wander around market place looking for sick people to heal
9-9.15 am Talk to man up tree. Decline dinner invitation but re-schedule for two weeks hence
...
Yeah right.
Exxxxaaaaaccccttllyy!!!!!!
And where exactly do I read about Jesus leadership abilities requiring schedules planned in 15 minutes slots of the 12 disciples later called apostles? Like if Jesus could have helped the 12 with a better plan, like Judas, then Judas never would have failed like he did. Jesus just wasn't quite up to par as a TWI leader.
Ex: Judas schedule
5-6am Rise up a great while before day
6-6:15am Depart to a solitary place
6:15-7am Pray
7-8am Temple
8-10am Office Hours
10-11 Witnessing
11-12 Lunch
12-1 CP3 - exercise
1-1:30pm - steal money from the common fund bag
1:30-3pm - Office hours
3-3:30pm - Meet with Roman leadership to betray Jesus
3:30-5pm - Meeting prep
5-6pm - Dinner
6pm - 7 Household chores
7pm - 8pm Fantasize about women
8pm - sleep
See - if Judas would just work on what he's spending time on in the 1-1:30pm, 3-3:30pm and 7pm slots, he could plan the adversary out of his life. Oh, and if Jesus was really a great leader, he would have noticed this in Judas's schedule, or some kind of discrepancy so that he could have helped Judas earlier. Jesus could have planned the adversary out of his life better too.
The end comes. . . your life flashes before your eyes. . . and a large portion of it is sectioned off into 15 minute increments. . . accounted for . . . to some *ministry* leader you secretly despised.
All because you were so afraid of the *adversary* you forgot to live.
I'm a big planner, I'm an organizer; sometimes that's a good thing, but taken to an extreme, it's a bad thing, it just gets in the way of living life.
Any of you who hosted me back in 2002 when I drove across the central and northeaster United States (& southern Ontario) might have seen my red 3-ring binder that included maps, addresses, phone numbers, estimated travel times etc that I used to plan my trip. I had 12 days to visit 10 or 12 sets of family members, GSers, and miscellaneous friends spread out across as many cities and had to be back at work on time. So I had a highly detailed PLAN.
Now normally my day isn't so highly structured. I use the calendar that is included in Microsoft Office to block out work, appointments and events that I want to attend, and pretty much just wing the rest. As long as my wife and I communicate on our schedules, everything is fine.
TWI didn't recognize that different people organize their time in different ways. Some people actually thrive using that 15-minute-increment schedule, others just have a to-do list that they work through. Even at work, my method of organization changed when my job changed. As a sales rep for a newspaper circulation department, I was on the road a lot and had to plan travel time into my day, so at the time I blocked my day out in half-hour segments. Now, working in a grocery store I get interrupted a lot and have to adjust my time based on what the customers are doing, so I have a list of things to do and deadlines & priorities, and just plug away at it all day. For me it would have been impossible to stay on top of things using my current method at my old job and vice versa.
this discussion makes me think of a novel i recently read titled "i know this much is true" by wally lamb. it's about identical twin brothers, one that is paranoid schizophrenic and the other that is trying to take care of him, and is told from the voice of the caretaker brother. very interesting stuff when it comes to comparisons to the way international because the mentally ill brother says so many things that are so much like what was said and repeated and taught often in the way international and are like this discussion right now, and how the caretaker brother tries to make sense of it all. good read if anybody is interested, and it's quite interesting to the whole discussion about the "adversary" and what is and is not "devilish" or at cellular or molecular or genetic levels or "spiritual" levels.
this discussion makes me think of a novel i recently read titled "i know this much is true" by wally lamb. it's about identical twin brothers, one that is paranoid schizophrenic and the other that is trying to take care of him, and is told from the voice of the caretaker brother. very interesting stuff when it comes to comparisons to the way international because the mentally ill brother says so many things that are so much like what was said and repeated and taught often in the way international and are like this discussion right now, and how the caretaker brother tries to make sense of it all. good read if anybody is interested, and it's quite interesting to the whole discussion about the "adversary" and what is and is not "devilish" or at cellular or molecular or genetic levels or "spiritual" levels.
I have sometimes wondered if that whole *revelation* thing coupled with SIT didn't set some of us up for some sort of mental illness later in life. . . . . listening for voices in our head, hearing them, doing what they say. . . . . or blanking out instead of engaging in what is going on around us. . . . not everyone. . .but, it may have contributed to problems some have.
I remember reading something from JAL about knowing the difference between Jesus' voice and God's voice speaking to him. . . . that is two voices right there.
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TrustAndObey
Well, of course they deserve it.. I mean, they must have believed for it, or maybe forgot to believe NOT to get it..
At least, so they say... lol..
I just believed they were right. And I planned the adversary out of my life! Yes, it works..
It's called leaving TWI! ;)
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DogLover
It's stupid to even consider that someone could do that ... if anyone could have done it, it would have been Jesus Christ ... but even he was tempted by the devil. You will note he replied, "It is written..." not "You're not on my schedule for the day." Just absurd arrogance on the part of TWI leaders.
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waysider
Yep.
Plan the adverary out of your life, speak in tongues much, fill your mind with endless retemories-----
It all accomplishes the same end. It keeps your mind so occupied with mental busy work that you don't have time to objectively consider the big picture.
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krys
it is an oxymoron.
IF you buy the whole ball of wax: including - anything in the real world can be seen by the adversary.
You have just shown your hand to the adversary AND your TC AND your mother in law.
If you want to keep somebody off your tail, don't do the same thing in the same way with no variation. Write down a plan, if you want....and follow it most of the time, but once and a while don't follow it exactly and you retain an element of surprise.
I maintain that there is an adversary, although not framed the same way as twi did. I also maintain that some of the spiritual "rules" are valid. but likewise in the same category as the adversary [please don't press me on this....it's not fully formed in my mind] Therefore, within the confines of this post....I maintain that twi set all up for any and all "attacks"....and...when Greasespot-ness was guaranteed by spittle from the horse's - er jackass' mouth it was the old Girl's Volleyball rules...set up and pass...touble tap. Once they tapped you over the net, into the view of whomever ...you were already doomed. So I also maintain that their evil came/comes in many flavors.
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chockfull
Planning the adversary out of your life is an incredibly egotistical elitist type of statement from deluded Christians. It's representative of the ego and elitism wrapped up in TWI.
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soul searcher
I'm pretty clueless about these things, but I'm interested what people think.
So then...three questions:
1. Isn't it TWI doctrine that this is the adversary's world? -- that God is not in control? (And if the adversary is in control then doesn't it follow that the adversary permeates everything and is thus inescapable?)
2. Is secular music (i.e., pop, rock, blues, r&b) of the adversary? (If so, how do you know?)
3. Is the adversary in cancer cells? (Or only in healthy, non-cancer cells?)
I'm not trying to be sarcastic with these questions (although I might classify them as somewhat pointed). It's just that when people start talking about a "devil", I wonder what they suppose the nature of this devil might be. John 10:10 doesn't give us a lot of detail.
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waysider
I'll try, soul searcher, but remember, TWI doctrine is built out of thousands of tiny little pieces, put together like a leggo robot.
Q.#1 Yes, Twi doctrine maintains that the devil (the "adversary") controls the "senses/natural" world. Do you remember an old song called, "He's Got the Whole World in His Hands"? Way theology maintained that the song was talking about the devil, not God or Jesus. I guess you were supposed to feel spiritually mature (ie: smug) if you realized the "real' meaning of the song. Now, the only way to "escape" the adversary was to stay in "the one true household of God" (read:The Way)because God had a hedge of protection erected around it. Of course, there were other requirements, such as renewed mind and speaking in tongues, also, that went along with that.
Q.#2 Much secular music was labeled "devilish" because it supposedly carried subliminal /ambiguous meanings, meant to trick you out of The Word. An example would be a song like
Q.#3 Wierwille taught that cancer was caused by devil possession. I'm not sure I ever heard him talk about it being at a cellular, biological level. I mean, you were either possessed or you weren't. That's a spiritual thing, not an anatomical thing.
Is it clear as mud now?
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soul searcher
There is a lot of real truth and beauty in the world. And it doesn't belong to a "devil", I don't care what anybody says.
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waysider
"The views expressed do not necessarily represent the views of this station -----yada yada yada"
In other words----I'm just answering your question, not giving my personal take on things.
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mstar1
I dont know if his is exactly on topic but for my money I have never ever seen another group of people anywhere that was so
obsessed with devils as TWI. Looking back on it now is incredibly bizarre.
I dont know what it was all about--whether it was a response to all the dark repressions stuffed by way doctrines... all the masked internal fears filtering through disturbed minds or what it was, but it was clinical insane and at times was like agroup psychosis
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waysider
If "Idle hands are the devil's tools", then why is there "no rest for the wicked"?
:B)
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act2
Waysider, thanx for the laugh this morning. I am riding my exercise bike & reading this on my iPhone!! Helps pass the time!
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soul searcher
I have three young boys who love Leggos so I know how messy it can be with all those thousands of little pieces all over the place. lol
I love that song.
"Way-sanctioned" art? Hee-hee! What nonsense.
I'm curious as to how one can identify which songs have hidden "subliminal" messages from the adversary. Could it be the ones that cause hip-shakin' and the ol' "backbone slip"?
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krys
oops - - I thought it was no rest for the weary.
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Bolshevik
I hated fellowship (twig). Only stupid people go to twig fellowship.
Remember having to turn in a schedule every sunday of what you did (in 15 minute intervals) for the past week and what you planned to do the next week?
Those stupid schedules ruined so many plans. How many years you couldn't take action on anything because it wasn't written is some @$#&%!! plan!!
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Ham
so da adversary isn't in the day planner. By protocol, all he has to do is call the right underling and make an appointment.
the *procedure* is "sacrosanct"..
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Twinky
Thank goodness this madness of the weekly plan didn't set in till after I'd been kicked out. I'd never have survived. I'm a hopeless timekeeper, am frequently late for things, and love dealing with things that happen spontaneously. Which doesn't mean I can't keep to a timetable when I need to, or that I don't have a plan. Just that what I plan has flexibility to deal with the unexpected., and I don't burden myself with unnecessary deadlines (like, always being at least 10 mins early for anything; if you weren't, you were "late").
But if I'd had a "plan," in fact I'd never have followed through with the person who witnessed to me (hey, that may be a good reason for having a plan!!) because there would have been no time in the schedule.
Come to think of it...
Would Jesus have found time to speak to all the people he did, if he'd had a plan in 15 minute slots? The Samaritan woman at the well? Zachaeus? Healing all those sick people? What would his schedule have said?
7-8 am Go to temple for worship
8-9 am Wander around market place looking for sick people to heal
9-9.15 am Talk to man up tree. Decline dinner invitation but re-schedule for two weeks hence
...
Yeah right.
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TrustAndObey
While I remember having to do those stupid schedules.. I guess I wasn't "sold" on their purpose or benefit, thus, mine never reflected anything but what I thought they wanted to see, and then went about life as usual. That went on for what, 5 years of stupid meaningless schedules. Right up to the point when I put my final plan into action for planning the adversary out of my life, leaving TWI! And they think I'm going to submit that in my schedule to them?! lol
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Tzaia
Every time I think that TWI could not get any more insane, someone brings another tidbit to prove me wrong.
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chockfull
Exxxxaaaaaccccttllyy!!!!!!
And where exactly do I read about Jesus leadership abilities requiring schedules planned in 15 minutes slots of the 12 disciples later called apostles? Like if Jesus could have helped the 12 with a better plan, like Judas, then Judas never would have failed like he did. Jesus just wasn't quite up to par as a TWI leader.
Ex: Judas schedule
5-6am Rise up a great while before day
6-6:15am Depart to a solitary place
6:15-7am Pray
7-8am Temple
8-10am Office Hours
10-11 Witnessing
11-12 Lunch
12-1 CP3 - exercise
1-1:30pm - steal money from the common fund bag
1:30-3pm - Office hours
3-3:30pm - Meet with Roman leadership to betray Jesus
3:30-5pm - Meeting prep
5-6pm - Dinner
6pm - 7 Household chores
7pm - 8pm Fantasize about women
8pm - sleep
See - if Judas would just work on what he's spending time on in the 1-1:30pm, 3-3:30pm and 7pm slots, he could plan the adversary out of his life. Oh, and if Jesus was really a great leader, he would have noticed this in Judas's schedule, or some kind of discrepancy so that he could have helped Judas earlier. Jesus could have planned the adversary out of his life better too.
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geisha779
The end comes. . . your life flashes before your eyes. . . and a large portion of it is sectioned off into 15 minute increments. . . accounted for . . . to some *ministry* leader you secretly despised.
All because you were so afraid of the *adversary* you forgot to live.
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Oakspear
I'm a big planner, I'm an organizer; sometimes that's a good thing, but taken to an extreme, it's a bad thing, it just gets in the way of living life.
Any of you who hosted me back in 2002 when I drove across the central and northeaster United States (& southern Ontario) might have seen my red 3-ring binder that included maps, addresses, phone numbers, estimated travel times etc that I used to plan my trip. I had 12 days to visit 10 or 12 sets of family members, GSers, and miscellaneous friends spread out across as many cities and had to be back at work on time. So I had a highly detailed PLAN.
Now normally my day isn't so highly structured. I use the calendar that is included in Microsoft Office to block out work, appointments and events that I want to attend, and pretty much just wing the rest. As long as my wife and I communicate on our schedules, everything is fine.
TWI didn't recognize that different people organize their time in different ways. Some people actually thrive using that 15-minute-increment schedule, others just have a to-do list that they work through. Even at work, my method of organization changed when my job changed. As a sales rep for a newspaper circulation department, I was on the road a lot and had to plan travel time into my day, so at the time I blocked my day out in half-hour segments. Now, working in a grocery store I get interrupted a lot and have to adjust my time based on what the customers are doing, so I have a list of things to do and deadlines & priorities, and just plug away at it all day. For me it would have been impossible to stay on top of things using my current method at my old job and vice versa.
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brainfixed
this discussion makes me think of a novel i recently read titled "i know this much is true" by wally lamb. it's about identical twin brothers, one that is paranoid schizophrenic and the other that is trying to take care of him, and is told from the voice of the caretaker brother. very interesting stuff when it comes to comparisons to the way international because the mentally ill brother says so many things that are so much like what was said and repeated and taught often in the way international and are like this discussion right now, and how the caretaker brother tries to make sense of it all. good read if anybody is interested, and it's quite interesting to the whole discussion about the "adversary" and what is and is not "devilish" or at cellular or molecular or genetic levels or "spiritual" levels.
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geisha779
I have sometimes wondered if that whole *revelation* thing coupled with SIT didn't set some of us up for some sort of mental illness later in life. . . . . listening for voices in our head, hearing them, doing what they say. . . . . or blanking out instead of engaging in what is going on around us. . . . not everyone. . .but, it may have contributed to problems some have.
I remember reading something from JAL about knowing the difference between Jesus' voice and God's voice speaking to him. . . . that is two voices right there.
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