Is PLAF theopneustos, god-breathed?

[Mike]

1 hour ago, T-Bone said:

Mike, you’ve used interchangeably...

 

T-Bone, I responded to this and had some editing problems. My response is now above a few posts, without the notifications bells and whistles.

[Mike]

37 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Oh, what rubbish. 

Twinky, I need to run, but I do want to answer this much.

Several quick fixes of miscommunications will make it easier for you to deal with me.

The God-breathed stuff will not get a quick fix, though. Yes it is a controversial thesis (or whatever) I have and want to write out in a manifesto. It's probably the MOST controversial idea possible for PFAL grads. I know that. I don't mean to shock you.

There are a few minor things though I will fix when I return. The major will have to wait fort a while.

[So_crates]

2 hours ago, Mike said:

a) By "devoid of authority" I mean near every English word can be contested by some scholar somewhere; many ancient words by another manuscript somewhere.  Something that doesn't have this void can be authoritative. Especially nuanced attitudes that context builds. When I see and understand something from the book of Revelation inside PFAL, then I have something authoritative from that book.  So it depends where you read in Revelations and how much of it you read whether it's devoid of authority or not.

 

Every word and concept in PLAF have also been contested. What is believing? How does one get born again? Water baptism or baptism in the holy spirit? These continue to be contested by scholars/ Does that make PLAF "devoid of authority"? Why the bible and not PLAF?

 

Quote

b)  No. Please read it again. Plus, I'll try again:

Because we mark in it and change words and commas, we are demonstrating that we know what is printed is not authoritative. We are trying to supply something we think is more authoritative when we mark in the KJV,  usually.

 

No, we marked in the bible because a con man told us we were getting a more accurate translation. It wasn't a matter of authority, it was a matter of accuracy. 

Remember making it so it "fits like a hand in a glove."

Or so it work "with a mathematical accuracy and scientific precision."

What do you think was the purpose of all those "literals according to usage"? Authority? Maybe for Saint Vic. For most of us it was accuracy.

I'll ask you another question: If I mark up a book of civil law is it "devoid of authority"?

 

Quote

You also wrote: "Where does he think the bible gets its authority from?"

Didn't I ask you all here? What do YOU think the KJV Bible gets its authority from. That's a more precise question that yours IMO.  I don't know exactly what you mean by "the bible."   What DO you mean by that ever so slightly ambiguous phrase?

 

Would you like to dance around a little more? We're back to that depends on what the definition of 'is' is. Ask Joe Sixpack what a bible is, he know. As him where its authority comes from, he knows.

Unforunately, I didn't ask him, I asked you.

Like I said, you can tell a lot about people by the questions they avoid answering.

Edited January 8, 2018 by So_crates

[JayDee]

If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going. 

When your IQ rises to 28, sell. 

Professor Irwin Cory. The "World's Foremost Authority". 

I'm waiting patiently for Mike to make a point. Any point. Besides the obvious that he's a devoted worshiper of all things VeePee. 

[Grace Valerie Claire]

13 minutes ago, JayDee said:

If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going. 

When your IQ rises to 28, sell. 

Professor Irwin Cory. The "World's Foremost Authority". 

I'm waiting patiently for Mike to make a point. Any point. Besides the obvious that he's a devoted worshiper of all things VeePee. 

Jay,  

[T-Bone]

6 hours ago, Mike said:

 

30 minutes ago, T-Bone said:

I also challenged you on the false dilemma you forwarded over the KJV and other translations as lacking validity or authority in matters of faith because they’re not the original first-edition documents from the Almighty’s publishing company.

 

.This is an extended matter and can take many pages to discuss. We have hardly begun this topic you refer to here. I look forward to facing your challenge here in great detail, as it can find time.

 

I think we can shorten the discussion by just getting right to the heart of the matter; two notable scholars F.F. Bruce  and Sir Frederic Kenyon  – both with expertise in the historical reliability of the New Testament have stated that very little has been lost as to what was originally written in the New Testament docs, in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable?  by FF Bruce... it says on pages 14 and 15:

“The study of the kind of attestation found in MSS and quotations in later writers is connected with the approach known as Textual Criticism. This is a most important and fascinating branch of study, its object being to determine as exactly as possible from the available evidence the original words of the documents in question. It is easily proved by experiment that it is difficult to copy out a passage of any considerable length without making one or two slips at least. When we have documents like our New Testament writings copied and recopied thousands of times, the scope for copyists’ errors is so enormously increased that it is surprising there are no more than there actually are. Fortunately, if the great number of MSS increases the number of scribal errors, it increases proportionately the means of correcting such errors, so that the margin of doubt left in the process of recovering the exact original wording is not so large as might be feared; it is in truth remarkably small. The variant readings about which any doubt remains among textual critics of the New Testament affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice.

To sum up, we may quote the verdict of the late Sir Frederic Kenyon, a scholar whose authority to make pronouncements on ancient MSS was second to none:

‘The Interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.’ “

== == == == == 

Bruce’s point is simple – with the increase of hand-copies comes the possibility of scribal errors – but that also means you have that many more “witnesses” as to what was originally said. And another thing to consider is what type of scribal errors occurred. Was a word misspelled, or repeated or transposed, etc. - - these would be easy to spot and corrected by comparing other copies...

It appears wierwille is somewhat removed from analyzing the actual texts that are still in existence; in the PFAL book, page 128 in chapter 11, “The Translations of the Word of God”, wierwille states:

“Since we have no originals and the oldest manuscripts that we have date back to the fifth century A.D., how can we get back to the authentic prophecy which was given when holy men of God spoke? To get the Word of God out of any translation or out of any version, we have to compare one word with another and one verse with another verse. We have to study the context of all verses.”

== == == == == 

I see two issues with wierwille’s approach:

First: He’s off by about a century and a half on the oldest manuscripts in existence – Bruce notes on page 10 of his book that there are in existence over 5,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament in whole or in part and that the best and most important of these go back to somewhere about AD 350.

Second: wierwille is not comparing Greek manuscripts – instead he is comparing translations or versions of the Bible! That’s like playing the telephone game - the first person states a message and by the time it goes through a whole line of people the message might sound somewhat different from the original.  wierwille is at the end of the line - comparing how one translator interprets a phrase in the Greek to how another translator handles the same phrase. Frankly I don’t have much faith in wierwille’s ability to see beyond his own doctrinal preferences to note differences or similarities in translations since he would come up with goofy phrases that blurred variations like “all without exception” and “all without distinction” – which is the same thing.

== == == == ==

Here are multiple challenges:  

First challenge: how can wierwille claim he can get back to the authentic prophecy when it was first given if he is only looking at translations and versions instead of the manuscripts written in the original biblical languages? In my humble opinion, it is doubtful wierwille was even competent to read and understand any of the biblical languages anyway.

Second challenge: what standard or criteria are you using to declare that the KJV or other translations lack validity and authority in matters of the Christian faith?

Third challenge: specifically what errors are there in the KJV - or in other translations, for that matter - that need to be addressed because it is mission critical to the church and/or one’s Christian faith? Or to put it another way - what errors does your manifesto confront and resolve to make your unique creed a better version of Christianity?

Fourth challenge: How is PFAL God-breathed if all wierwille did to put it together was just supposedly compare translations /versions …oh and plagiarize the work of others too?

Fifth challenge: If God’s breath gave life to scripture (II Timothy 3:16) and in a way that represents an extension of God himself then doesn’t that make God a liar and thief if you believe that a bundle of plagiarized material (aka PFAL) is God-breathed?

Edited January 8, 2018 by T-Bone
needed more time / formatting

[Rocky]

8 hours ago, Mike said:

Well, I left here yesterday morning thinking I had cleaned up everything, and could concentrate on a big writing project. Then I get notifications of 7 or 8 more posts, now I see they are all about me. I thought you folks wanted a break from me?

I was very encouraged a few times the other day when a few posters asked me questions on my position. Getting those facts straight was cool. However, in reading over the past page of posts I see MANY more misconceptions or misreadings of what I have posted.

I swear, I see two types of intelligence working. One is infrequent and it seeks to understand WHAT is being posted by me.  This intelligence asks questions before it pounces.

The other intelligence, far more frequent, seeks to pounce first on whatever looks like a good target in my writing, and then it asks questions to seek more targets.

You can learn a lot about people from the questions they ask.

I spent the past 24 hours pondering lightly the categories in my manifesto that will needed to communicate it. I looked at other threads to see more of where your heads are at after my being gone for ten years. I am searching my own more complete archives for past presentations that will fit into the manifesto project.

But what am I going to do with all the simple correctable errors I see in the past 24 hours of posting?

I am very thankful to those who have attempted to do some real communicating with me. I invite more to join.

SMH. Mike, whether or not YOU should take a break from posting (and reading) GSC is NOT dependent on what others post about you. It's about whether or not you are able to focus on your stated goal. THIS is further indication (as in Eph 4:14) that you are tossed about with all sorts of distraction. It also lends credence to my suggestion that you seek to be approved to people here, on some level even if not consciously. The sentence I highlighted is in YOUR words indicating that you were responding to people here rather than focused on your stated intent.

Perhaps you might reflect on your intentions more to be sure you're clear on what you want to accomplish... oh and btw, if you really do want to stop getting distracted, you're going to need to sign out, ignore notifications and stop reading posts here... for (substantially) MORE than 24 hours.

[Mike]

5 hours ago, JayDee said:

If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going. 

When your IQ rises to 28, sell. 

Professor Irwin Cory. The "World's Foremost Authority". 

I'm waiting patiently for Mike to make a point. Any point. Besides the obvious that he's a devoted worshiper of all things VeePee. 

 Ok. Here's a point.

A friend of mine saw Professor Irwin Cory live in NYC a few years ago. He was over 95 then. I remember seeing him on the old Steve Allen Show in 1963.

That wasn't the point I was going to make.

This is it:

I'm definitely not a worshiper of "all things"  VPW.

I've stated here many ways I have a healthy distance between him and me. There's only a few key things that get my attention about him.

The main thing is the written form of PFAL. This is NOT solely due to VPW. As has been posted here many times by many, and published in print and on tape by VPW:  ..... he did not originate most of this written material.

PLUS, there was a very competent team of Way grads who assisted him. Some say large sections of articles and chapters were written by them, under his supervision.

So why not say I'm a worshiper of all those teachers of VPW, and all those assistants of VPW, since my main focus is on written forms of PFAL?

***

Another thing I appreciate about VPW was the way he got this material to me.

I doubt if any other Christian could have done that. He found a way to get many people the material. I admire him and his skills for that.

Of  course, if I say that too poetically, then I'm accused by Word Wolf of worship again. Baloney! I admire LOTS of people for their skills and accomplishments. The way VPW got this material out into the world where it was needed is admirable. The amount of material he put into the Foundational film class was a great achievement.

What I am most appreciative to VPW is that now I have awareness of, due largely to his efforts, the good God to worship, the Father who raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Mike

[Mike]

7 hours ago, Twinky said:

Oh, what rubbish.  Either it fits all or it fits none.  If your whatever-it-is is really the revealed word of God, then it should be good for "OLGs," "refugees from Craig," grads, and people who have never heard of TWI.

My manifesto will not be God-breathed. For efficiency in writing it would help to be clear on my audience.

Do you know, Mike, if people do a PhD (as in "Dr W"), they have a very searching oral examination on the minutiae of the subject of their thesis?

" Once you have submitted your thesis you will be invited to defend your doctorate at a ‘viva voce' (Latin for ‘by live voice') or oral examination. The thesis defence can be a daunting prospect, but many people really enjoy this experience of discussing their PhD research with genuinely interested experts. It can also be a useful networking opportunity. "  https://www.vitae.ac.uk/doing-research/doing-a-doctorate/completing-your-doctorate/your-viva

Your Dr W would (if he'd really done a doctorate) have had to defend his thesis (premises) before real experts.  He would have to show he really knew his stuff.  It's a bit more than delivering a token sermon.

Now then, Mike.  You will see if you care to read the link above that to some extent you are being subject to some searching and challenging questions.  (I know you aren't defending a PhD but you are presenting some very controversial material.)  You have to answer these challenges if you want to be taken seriously. 

I do want to try. I am limited in time and ability. I may be able to satisfy some.

 

If (as appears) you want people to throw away their Bibles, their compilations of sacred literature going back for millennia, in favour of PFAL material, you have to deal with the challenges as to why that might not be an appropriate course of action.

I'd say KJV tossing is NOT a good course of action at all.  There are lots of things it's still good for.  We all knew long ago that the KJV was not God-breathed. Nobody advocated throwing it out back then. What I definitely AM advocating is looking at written PFAL as the Word of God, and the KJV and things like it are "aids to devotion."  

The only thing really different in my avocation here is the ADDITION of something authoritative.

I daren't even think about you presenting PFAL to a Jewish person, telling them that Moses is a liar or deluded or hadn't got it right

I have NEVER  advocated ANYTHING LIKE that!  Honest!  How did you come up with THAT?

Moses is fine and dandy.  The Old Testament scriptures suffered far less degradation, forgeries, and mis-copying. It's what is sold in bookstores as Bibles that I have a beef with. Too say something is devoid of authority is not to say it's deluded, or that the characters portrayed are deluded. It mainly means sections rendering is not a sure thing, and that further research can overturn what it seems to say now. This is all MUCH more the case with translating to English. That's another way authority gets voided out.

 

and that some cornfield preacher in Ohio is the only one who really understands God.  Never mind "OLGs," "refugees from Craig," and grads.

 

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Rocky said:

Perhaps you might reflect on your intentions more to be sure you're clear on what you want to accomplish... oh and btw, if you really do want to stop getting distracted, you're going to need to sign out, ignore notifications and stop reading posts here... for (substantially) MORE than 24 hours.

I pretty well agree, and am working in that direction.

However I have seen a few hints helping my organization as I deal with a few simple distractions. I am refraining from getting into the extended topics.

If I can clear up a simple misunderstanding, it's worth the distraction.

 

[Twinky]

6 hours ago, T-Bone said:

I think we can shorten the discussion by just getting right to the heart of the matter...

Very good post, T-Bone.  Very good.

[JayDee]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

 

I'm definitely not a worshiper of "all things"  VPW.

 

Yes you are Mike. 

You’re putting lipstick on a pig by legitimizing his writings with the caveat “He had a competent team of Way grads who assisted him”. They did exactly what he wanted them to do, or they got bounced. Nobody dared to cross him. 

I’m sincerely sorry that you’ve spent decades believing that VeePee was a legitimate scholar and teacher. He was an unrepentant, unconvicted felon. That’s YOUR HERO. I’m thankful he wasn’t mine. 

[So_crates]

9 hours ago, Mike said:

Now then, Mike.  You will see if you care to read the link above that to some extent you are being subject to some searching and challenging questions.  (I know you aren't defending a PhD but you are presenting some very controversial material.)  You have to answer these challenges if you want to be taken seriously. 

I do want to try. I am limited in time and ability. I may be able to satisfy some.

I find it very telling that Twinky, T-Bone, or I challange you and your excuse is that you don't have time. Yet you have time to present a several inch post on Professor Irwin Corey.

Like I said, you can tell a lot about people by the questions they avoid answering.

[Raf]

[WordWolf]

13 hours ago, Mike said:

(snip)

I'm definitely not a worshiper of "all things"  VPW.

I've stated here many ways I have a healthy distance between him and me. There's only a few key things that get my attention about him.

(snip)

You stated he was "born with an overabundance of brains and brawn." You stated that he was "OVERgifted."

The man's brains and brawn were strictly average- as has been shown beyond any REASONABLE doubt.

You don't have "a healthy distance" from him.

[WordWolf]

3 hours ago, JayDee said:

Yes you are Mike. 

You’re putting lipstick on a pig by legitimizing his writings with the caveat “He had a competent team of Way grads who assisted him”. They did exactly what he wanted them to do, or they got bounced. Nobody dared to cross him. 

I’m sincerely sorry that you’ve spent decades believing that VeePee was a legitimate scholar and teacher. He was an unrepentant, unconvicted felon. That’s YOUR HERO. I’m thankful he wasn’t mine. 

 

[chockfull]

I'd say KJV tossing is NOT a good course of action at all.  There are lots of things it's still good for.  We all knew long ago that the KJV was not God-breathed. Nobody advocated throwing it out back then. What I definitely AM advocating is looking at written PFAL as the Word of God, and the KJV and things like it are "aids to devotion."  

------------------------------------------------

Mike, if you can't see the problem with looking at written PFAL as God-breathed whereas the KJV is not God-breathed, then there's not a whole lot more to discuss.  It's like you have this weird view of VP like he is Balaam's @$$ or something.  

I guess we could discuss my topic of God-breathed halitosis.

Thoughts?

[Mike]

5 hours ago, chockfull said:

I'd say KJV tossing is NOT a good course of action at all.  There are lots of things it's still good for.  We all knew long ago that the KJV was not God-breathed. Nobody advocated throwing it out back then. What I definitely AM advocating is looking at written PFAL as the Word of God, and the KJV and things like it are "aids to devotion."  

------------------------------------------------

Mike, if you can't see the problem with looking at written PFAL as God-breathed whereas the KJV is not God-breathed, then there's not a whole lot more to discuss.  It's like you have this weird view of VP like he is Balaam's @$$ or something.  

I guess we could discuss my topic of God-breathed halitosis.

Thoughts?

Not Balaam's a$$, but Balaam himself.

Balaam’s story is an OT example of the GREAT forgiveness of God. It's much greater than any forgiveness we can muster.  I've seen in my life how God can work with me even when I'm out of fellowship. But when I'm in fellowship things work MUCH better. The faster I can get back in fellowship, the faster God forgives and is ready to work with any readiness I operate.

Balaam’s story is one of God’s GREAT ability to work with even just a little good believing. 

Instead of guessing wrongly that I have some inappropriate affection toward VPW, look at my deliberate focus on the God that forgives MUCH more than humans want Him to. 

I imagine many of Uriah’s relatives wanted God to not forgive David.  My God can forgive David and still work with him.  Can you forgive David for his treachery and murder?  My God can forgive VPW and still work with him.  My God can forgive me of WHATEVER and still work with me. My God can forgive you and work with you the same way.

If God really did forgive VPW (over  and over) and still get lots of blessing of God’s people accomplished, JUST THINK of how much more blessing He can accomplish with you.

Instead of reveling in how much you don’t want to see God’s grace and forgiveness given to VPW, try reveling in how much MORE blessing God can accomplish with you. VPW had a lot of inefficiencies that limited how much God could do with him. With less inefficiencies in your life, God and His GREAT forgiveness and grace can do SO MUCH more with you.

VPW accomplishing all he did testifies to God’s GREAT love. Those are my thoughts. I choose to look at God’s forgiveness.  To see that Jesus forgave Judas is key.

Instead of me talking up VPW, I choose to magnify God.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Mike

[So_crates]

3 hours ago, Mike said:

Not Balaam's a$$, but Balaam himself.

Balaam’s story is an OT example of the GREAT forgiveness of God. It's much greater than any forgiveness we can muster.  I've seen in my life how God can work with me even when I'm out of fellowship. But when I'm in fellowship things work MUCH better. The faster I can get back in fellowship, the faster God forgives and is ready to work with any readiness I operate.

Balaam’s story is one of God’s GREAT ability to work with even just a little good believing. 

Instead of guessing wrongly that I have some inappropriate affection toward VPW, look at my deliberate focus on the God that forgives MUCH more than humans want Him to. 

I imagine many of Uriah’s relatives wanted God to not forgive David.  My God can forgive David and still work with him.  Can you forgive David for his treachery and murder?  My God can forgive VPW and still work with him.  My God can forgive me of WHATEVER and still work with me. My God can forgive you and work with you the same way.

If God really did forgive VPW (over  and over) and still get lots of blessing of God’s people accomplished, JUST THINK of how much more blessing He can accomplish with you.

Instead of reveling in how much you don’t want to see God’s grace and forgiveness given to VPW, try reveling in how much MORE blessing God can accomplish with you. VPW had a lot of inefficiencies that limited how much God could do with him. With less inefficiencies in your life, God and His GREAT forgiveness and grace can do SO MUCH more with you.

VPW accomplishing all he did testifies to God’s GREAT love. Those are my thoughts. I choose to look at God’s forgiveness.  To see that Jesus forgave Judas is key.

Instead of me talking up VPW, I choose to magnify God.

The first error you made was God forgives when we admit our transgressions. Saint Vic never admitted he transgressed.

During the early days when Saint Vic claimed it was okay to be in a orgy because God would have wrote "It was best not to touch a woman" rather than the "It is good" He wrote. 

He threatened his victims with saying they were possessed by devil spirits.

That sound repentant to you?

All the way through the latter days, one person in this forum describes how he approached Saint Vic with his indiscretions. Saint Vic's answer, "We don't discuss that." And the individual sat in the room for several minute threatened by a growling dog.

This sound repentant to you?

Did God forgive David? Yes he did after he admitted his sins.

I'm willing to bet the same is true with anyone in the bible.

Confession leads to redemption. Not continuing in lust leads to great revelation.

What does PLAF teach? When we sin we're out of fellowship--we're out of alignment and harmony. Until we ask for forgivenss, God is unable to bless us. This includes his spirit moving in us to reveal great revelations. 

I serious doubt Saint Vic ever asked for forgiveness, because, as the "best man not touc a woman," line proves he never thought he was wrong.

How did Saint Vic put it?

"God would have to rewrite all the laws in the universe to accomodate him."

Edited January 9, 2018 by So_crates

[Twinky]

I think we should give Mike a bit of a break so that he can put his "manifesto" together.  In one coherent place.

(Then we can really challenge him.)

 

Yeah.  That's really going to happen.

[chockfull]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

Not Balaam's a$$, but Balaam himself.

Balaam’s story is an OT example of the GREAT forgiveness of God. It's much greater than any forgiveness we can muster.  I've seen in my life how God can work with me even when I'm out of fellowship. But when I'm in fellowship things work MUCH better. The faster I can get back in fellowship, the faster God forgives and is ready to work with any readiness I operate.

Balaam’s story is one of God’s GREAT ability to work with even just a little good believing. 

Instead of guessing wrongly that I have some inappropriate affection toward VPW, look at my deliberate focus on the God that forgives MUCH more than humans want Him to. 

I imagine many of Uriah’s relatives wanted God to not forgive David.  My God can forgive David and still work with him.  Can you forgive David for his treachery and murder?  My God can forgive VPW and still work with him.  My God can forgive me of WHATEVER and still work with me. My God can forgive you and work with you the same way.

If God really did forgive VPW (over  and over) and still get lots of blessing of God’s people accomplished, JUST THINK of how much more blessing He can accomplish with you.

Instead of reveling in how much you don’t want to see God’s grace and forgiveness given to VPW, try reveling in how much MORE blessing God can accomplish with you. VPW had a lot of inefficiencies that limited how much God could do with him. With less inefficiencies in your life, God and His GREAT forgiveness and grace can do SO MUCH more with you.

VPW accomplishing all he did testifies to God’s GREAT love. Those are my thoughts. I choose to look at God’s forgiveness.  To see that Jesus forgave Judas is key.

Instead of me talking up VPW, I choose to magnify God.

So if VPW was Balaam, does that then make you Balaam's @$$?

Dude, your poor attempts at delving into my psyche are pathetically humorous.

No, I don't revel in whatever is God's business.  Forgiveness of sin is God's business.  However, this guy Jesus taught a little teaching about how to recognize people.  By their fruit.   I actually don't revel in that teaching either.  But it is so universally presented across so many religions that it's really fundamental and easy to understand for most people.

[Raf]

Change VPW to Paul and you all will be where I am today.

Just saying.

[Mike]

6 hours ago, Twinky said:

I think we should give Mike a bit of a break so that he can put his "manifesto" together.  In one coherent place.

(Then we can really challenge him.)

 

Yeah.  That's really going to happen.

Twinky, 

Thanks for the suggestion to give me a break. 

This “one place” stipulation and “coherent (to you)” stipulation sets the bar a little high, though.

I was challenged many times, ten years ago, to put my thesis into written form and in one place. Often I’ve thought about it over the past decade. I’m not sure how possible it is, but I now have a systematic plan for getting the basics together.  Even just that is a massive project.

The rainy season started yesterday in San Diego, so time will becoming abundant for the next 3 months.  I’m coming and going looking at and copying many old threads. Many of the pieces of my manifesto are already on this board.

In the meantime, I do not mind at all answering some questions.

In just the past couple weeks I’ve seen that there are MANY misconceptions here to MANY things I stand for. If we can get those cleared up a little, then communication on the “PFAL=God-breathed” idea will be much more efficiency.  

Another point on efficiency:  wasting your time on shaming me or ridiculing me are vain and stupid. Let’s stick to the ideas, and not try hard to spoil someone’s ego.  It is just SO twi to use shame and ridicule to try and force an idea into someone. Such effort makes the instigator look ugly.

So, I’d appreciate a break on the shame and ridicule. But keep the questions coming that can clear up some of the shocks that this most controversial idea is so surrounded by.

[Mike]

2 hours ago, Raf said:

Change VPW to Paul and you all will be where I am today.

Just saying.

I did read some of your posting on your current belief system, Raf. 

But I don't quite understand this analogy. Not that I need to...

[Mike]

On 1/7/2018 at 3:53 PM, So_crates said:

 

Every word and concept in PLAF have also been contested. What is believing? How does one get born again? Water baptism or baptism in the holy spirit? These continue to be contested by scholars/ Does that make PLAF "devoid of authority"? Why the bible and not PLAF?

Let me try again.

When a person (like ME for instance)  believes PFAL is God-breathed then, FOR ME, the contents are incontestable. They are the last word FOR ME because of my belief. FOR ME there are no other documents that are at that status. Every English word and every comma in the KJV is contestable in the sense, that FOR ME, I can keep searching for a better rendering when there is a problem.

If you relax a little, maybe we can get my idea more clear in your head. That way you can argue WITH ME, instead of arguing with what you may erroneously THINK that I am saying.

 

No, we marked in the bible because a con man told us we were getting a more accurate translation. It wasn't a matter of authority, it was a matter of accuracy. 

.No, we marked our Bibles because we were confident that the curse at the end of Revelations did not apply to altering our KJV copies.

Remember making it so it "fits like a hand in a glove."

Or so it work "with a mathematical accuracy and scientific precision."

Worthy goals; both.

What do you think was the purpose of all those "literals according to usage"? Authority? Maybe for Saint Vic. For most of us it was accuracy.

.Most of the literals were devoid of authority, unless they appeared in the final product of the published collaterals. They were useful aids to devotion, like the KJV, NIV, etc.

I'll ask you another question: If I mark up a book of civil law is it "devoid of authority"?

CLEARLY, you have something confused here about my position. You got cause and effect backwards.

Marking up something does not void it's authority, if it had any.

If you can find any place where I said this, with this causation, then it must be a typo I can fix. But I think it's the chip on your shoulder that prevents you from getting the causation right in my statement on marking.

For you to repeatedly get this wrong is interesting.

Here's the causation: First a pen owner finds out that the KJV is not God-breathed, THEN that pen owner feels comfortable to mark up the KJV. 

Get it now?  When you see a pen marking in a KJV, it tells you that that KJV owner PROBABLY feels it is not God-breathed. Either that or he is challenging the end curse of Revelation.

 

Would you like to dance around a little more?

Sure!   If the music is right.

We're back to that depends on what the definition of 'is' is. Ask Joe Sixpack what a bible is, he know. As him where its authority comes from, he knows.

Ok, can I ask you? 

What is your definition of  "a bible" and where does it's authority come from? 

I'd like to add: How do you deal with mistakes and mis-translations in "a bible"?

Unforunately, I didn't ask him, I asked you.

Like I said, you can tell a lot about people by the questions they avoid answering.

It's your turn to dance.

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Mike