No doubt JJ never thought he'd still be making these videos contra'ing VPW, after all these years.
As well as showing the copies of the books plagiarised by VPW, it might have been useful if JJ had recommended one or two deeper (but not too deep) theological tomes by reputable writers, since he mentions that VPW's writings are not only plagiarised, but shallow, sloppy, subbed, stolen, etc. Too many ex-Wayfers have no idea where to start looking, if they want more info, or want to study or think for themselves, and find it difficult to accept, let alone analyse, the content of non-Way materials.
Anyway, well done John, for sticking with it all these years.
The thing is, while some of the people who were leaders in twi at some point are still alive, this can be necessary because some of them are spreading lies. A generation later, this becomes a lesser problem but still exists. This "vpw said" business carries weight if people think vpw was an exceptional Christian rather than the lying, lukewarm dirtbag he actually was. A few people are still teaching their kids this, but this problem self-corrects over time, with the numbers of adherents to the vpw delusion decreasing exponentially. Worldwide, now, the numbers are tiny, and they drop further every decade, and eventually will just be a handful of adults scattered around the USA who were taught that vpw was some Superman and to shun other Christians. Either they'll die out completely, or they'll discover the truth and drift away from vpw apologetics. I mean, we've had vpw apologists here before. Some have died due to old age, and at least one joined a mainstream religion that vpw used to badmouth. The process has been going on for decades, and will continue. I don't know if there will ever be a time with ZERO wierwillists, but it's not ridiculous to imagine it will be down to less than one living-room full before I pass away from old age.
BTW, beginning thinkers don't need JJ to recommend something weighty and logical. They need something simple and clear. They need years to work up to "scholarly."
The thing is, while some of the people who were leaders in twi at some point are still alive, this can be necessary because some of them are spreading lies. A generation later, this becomes a lesser problem but still exists. This "vpw said" business carries weight if people think vpw was an exceptional Christian rather than the lying, lukewarm dirtbag he actually was. A few people are still teaching their kids this, but this problem self-corrects over time, with the numbers of adherents to the vpw delusion decreasing exponentially. Worldwide, now, the numbers are tiny, and they drop further every decade, and eventually will just be a handful of adults scattered around the USA who were taught that vpw was some Superman and to shun other Christians. Either they'll die out completely, or they'll discover the truth and drift away from vpw apologetics. I mean, we've had vpw apologists here before. Some have died due to old age, and at least one joined a mainstream religion that vpw used to badmouth. The process has been going on for decades, and will continue. I don't know if there will ever be a time with ZERO wierwillists, but it's not ridiculous to imagine it will be down to less than one living-room full before I pass away from old age.
BTW, beginning thinkers don't need JJ to recommend something weighty and logical. They need something simple and clear. They need years to work up to "scholarly."
Charlene’s post made me think of how vic finagled the finances for his “Aramaic Interlinear and Concordance”. Most of the financing came from “designated gifts” from Bud Reahard, Bo’s father. These gifts were “above and beyond” Bud’s “regular ABS”, according to what Bo told me. Bud was the International Operations Mgr. for Eli Lily Corp at the time. The Reahard family had been involved with Eli Lily from it’s founding, as Bud’s father was there at the beginning. Bo told me that the total of the “designated gifts” Bud gave for the Aramaic Interlinear project came to $140,000. Bud’s giving was genuine. He very much believed in the project because Bo was so invested in it and spoke about it to his father often. But I don’t think Bud ever knew that all the giving yielded a product that was largely bent to wierwille’s “Word” rather than to what the “research” and all those man-hours put into it actually found. That’s where the “research” rubber always hit the road for Walter. Whatever wierwille WANTED “The Word” to say, it was Walter and the team’s job to “find him a text” to prove it. That’s the ethical dilemma Charlene so aptly describes in her book. It’s what produced that unbearable cognitive dissonance that so many team members faced.
i have no idea what Bo’s opinion of the the thing is today. He doesn’t talk to me anymore because I have confronted him publicly on his FB page regarding his current rabid dominionist “Christian” views, and the radical right-wing political views it produces, as evidenced by the almost daily long-winded “prayers” he posts on political issues in the same King James English “thus saith the Lord” huff’n’puff and blow your house down wierwille condescending style that the offshoots and splinters love so much. Makes them feel like they’re right back in the BRC! LOL!
i’ve never really investigated how the thing was received by the biblical research and textual criticism folks at the academic and university levels. I wonder if anyone outside TWIt or the splinters and offshoots even uses it?? Anyone know?
DWBH wrote: "I’ve never really investigated how the thing was received by the biblical research and textual criticism folks at the academic and university levels. I wonder if anyone outside TWIt or the splinters and offshoots even uses it?? Anyone know?"
I recall that the Society of Biblical Literature knew the concordance was published in 1985 because some of the guys on the research team had been attending SBL meetings and talking about it to SBL members over the years. I do not know how it was actually received by those academics, or whether it is used by anyone today, including anyone at TWI HQ or in offshoots. Wish I could be more helpful.
i’ve never really investigated how the thing was received by the biblical research and textual criticism folks at the academic and university levels. I wonder if anyone outside TWIt or the splinters and offshoots even uses it?? Anyone know?
I have no idea on how it was received. IIRC, circa 1980 or so IBM was working on the lightweight Selectric "ball" or 'typing element" with that alphabet. Then the PC came out circa 1982 and bye bye you wonderful Selectric you.
I just looked. It seems that many Academics like it, though they are aware of it's origins, and that old "Father, Father, for this purpose was I....." was translated per vpw in Piffle.
DETOUR:
RE: Dominionist Theology: what a CROCK of poo-poo. If those Dominionists are in charge in anything in this future Kingdom they speak of (Millenial Kingdom) or get any authority, then I will tell Jesus personally to count me OUT! I will stay outside those walls. Rhema Words??? Good gravy....even further out on the edge of the Bell curve than twi. Speak the Words of God from your Spirit, and it will come into being. These words are special Rhema words....not Logos words...huh? The more of us who do it then the more effect it has. Hence, IMHO, that's why one can see this on FB and the like. I had respect for these folks at one time. Great respect the folks that now believe that crap and even "suggest" that believers names might be written in the Stars, too. And, maybe even learn what your Ministries are if you run your birthdate on our little program....for a fee...levels I- III. Guess who owns the Program? Another quietly uses this Program as a way to help one recognize and free-up your Ministry areas. Each level up, more detail, more bucks. Not much....but, why?
More Ethelbert taken as Gospel. And, thanks, all you Dominionists, for creating another Class struggle, as you use your superior wealth and connections to influence OUR Country and World politics so that all will comply and submit to you, and more, in His Holy Name. I thank you for showing me publicly your true thoughts and loving ideas- DOMINION over us all....in Love, of course! For Him, most certainly indeed. Bunk.
the Academic section offers more thorough studies in the areas of Biblical languages, theology, Biblical studies, apologetics, church history, theological dictionaries, theological encyclopedias, etc.
For those of you who can’t afford more classes and books, or just vomit at the thought, there are a number of folks who do lots of really excellent and academically legitimate work in and with Syriac language textual criticism of New Testament scripture. Bob Wassung in CT comes to mind.
Don’t let his affiliation with Jalvis’ TLTF confuse you. Bob has a genuine and impressive background in the study of Syriac. He has published numerous articles and runs an online independent study group for those interested.
Our good friend Penworks also knows some of the old Syriac/Aramaic legitimate researchers from the days she worked with them in the Research Team of the mid 1980s.
If your interest in Syriac is profound and you desire to seriously study it and understand it linguistically, then, imho, books and classes as recommended by our friend johnj above are an excellent starting point. But, if you just want to understand how Vic, and Walter manipulated the Aramaic Dept. and bullied Bernita Jess and her copse Aramaic assistants in the Research Dept., then you might even be able to find enough right here in the GSC archives to give you all the accurate info you need. Whatever you choose, enjoy!
Or, for something completely different along these lines, there's a very compelling argument for doing away with bible study altogether in a "shocking" book called The End of Biblical Studies (gasp!) by Hector Avalos, PhD. Prometheus Books. 2007.
Just sayin … there is an alternative viewpoint for those interested in questioning the value of continuing to hammer away at biblical texts in hopes of recreating "the original." Even if we did reach that goal, what would we have? A text that still contains contradictions (four different viewpoints in the 4 gospels), violence against "unbelievers," in the Hebrew Bible, condemnation of homosexuals, subjugation of women, etc.
Just sayin … let's take a look at bibliolatry and get honest about that. Perhaps this is a topic for the Doctrinal thread. Sigh …
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Twinky
No doubt JJ never thought he'd still be making these videos contra'ing VPW, after all these years.
As well as showing the copies of the books plagiarised by VPW, it might have been useful if JJ had recommended one or two deeper (but not too deep) theological tomes by reputable writers, since he mentions that VPW's writings are not only plagiarised, but shallow, sloppy, subbed, stolen, etc. Too many ex-Wayfers have no idea where to start looking, if they want more info, or want to study or think for themselves, and find it difficult to accept, let alone analyse, the content of non-Way materials.
Anyway, well done John, for sticking with it all these years.
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WordWolf
The thing is, while some of the people who were leaders in twi at some point are still alive, this can be necessary because some of them are spreading lies. A generation later, this becomes a lesser problem but still exists. This "vpw said" business carries weight if people think vpw was an exceptional Christian rather than the lying, lukewarm dirtbag he actually was. A few people are still teaching their kids this, but this problem self-corrects over time, with the numbers of adherents to the vpw delusion decreasing exponentially. Worldwide, now, the numbers are tiny, and they drop further every decade, and eventually will just be a handful of adults scattered around the USA who were taught that vpw was some Superman and to shun other Christians. Either they'll die out completely, or they'll discover the truth and drift away from vpw apologetics. I mean, we've had vpw apologists here before. Some have died due to old age, and at least one joined a mainstream religion that vpw used to badmouth. The process has been going on for decades, and will continue. I don't know if there will ever be a time with ZERO wierwillists, but it's not ridiculous to imagine it will be down to less than one living-room full before I pass away from old age.
BTW, beginning thinkers don't need JJ to recommend something weighty and logical. They need something simple and clear. They need years to work up to "scholarly."
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Rocky
That all makes sense to me.
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penworks
P.S. Rocky posted in the Doctrinal section a link to another video Juedes made about TWI's Aramaic project, which I worked on in part.
.
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DontWorryBeHappy
Charlene’s post made me think of how vic finagled the finances for his “Aramaic Interlinear and Concordance”. Most of the financing came from “designated gifts” from Bud Reahard, Bo’s father. These gifts were “above and beyond” Bud’s “regular ABS”, according to what Bo told me. Bud was the International Operations Mgr. for Eli Lily Corp at the time. The Reahard family had been involved with Eli Lily from it’s founding, as Bud’s father was there at the beginning. Bo told me that the total of the “designated gifts” Bud gave for the Aramaic Interlinear project came to $140,000. Bud’s giving was genuine. He very much believed in the project because Bo was so invested in it and spoke about it to his father often. But I don’t think Bud ever knew that all the giving yielded a product that was largely bent to wierwille’s “Word” rather than to what the “research” and all those man-hours put into it actually found. That’s where the “research” rubber always hit the road for Walter. Whatever wierwille WANTED “The Word” to say, it was Walter and the team’s job to “find him a text” to prove it. That’s the ethical dilemma Charlene so aptly describes in her book. It’s what produced that unbearable cognitive dissonance that so many team members faced.
i have no idea what Bo’s opinion of the the thing is today. He doesn’t talk to me anymore because I have confronted him publicly on his FB page regarding his current rabid dominionist “Christian” views, and the radical right-wing political views it produces, as evidenced by the almost daily long-winded “prayers” he posts on political issues in the same King James English “thus saith the Lord” huff’n’puff and blow your house down wierwille condescending style that the offshoots and splinters love so much. Makes them feel like they’re right back in the BRC! LOL!
i’ve never really investigated how the thing was received by the biblical research and textual criticism folks at the academic and university levels. I wonder if anyone outside TWIt or the splinters and offshoots even uses it?? Anyone know?
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penworks
DWBH wrote: "I’ve never really investigated how the thing was received by the biblical research and textual criticism folks at the academic and university levels. I wonder if anyone outside TWIt or the splinters and offshoots even uses it?? Anyone know?"
I recall that the Society of Biblical Literature knew the concordance was published in 1985 because some of the guys on the research team had been attending SBL meetings and talking about it to SBL members over the years. I do not know how it was actually received by those academics, or whether it is used by anyone today, including anyone at TWI HQ or in offshoots. Wish I could be more helpful.
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engine
I have no idea on how it was received. IIRC, circa 1980 or so IBM was working on the lightweight Selectric "ball" or 'typing element" with that alphabet. Then the PC came out circa 1982 and bye bye you wonderful Selectric you.
I just looked. It seems that many Academics like it, though they are aware of it's origins, and that old "Father, Father, for this purpose was I....." was translated per vpw in Piffle.
DETOUR:
RE: Dominionist Theology: what a CROCK of poo-poo. If those Dominionists are in charge in anything in this future Kingdom they speak of (Millenial Kingdom) or get any authority, then I will tell Jesus personally to count me OUT! I will stay outside those walls. Rhema Words??? Good gravy....even further out on the edge of the Bell curve than twi. Speak the Words of God from your Spirit, and it will come into being. These words are special Rhema words....not Logos words...huh? The more of us who do it then the more effect it has. Hence, IMHO, that's why one can see this on FB and the like. I had respect for these folks at one time. Great respect the folks that now believe that crap and even "suggest" that believers names might be written in the Stars, too. And, maybe even learn what your Ministries are if you run your birthdate on our little program....for a fee...levels I- III. Guess who owns the Program? Another quietly uses this Program as a way to help one recognize and free-up your Ministry areas. Each level up, more detail, more bucks. Not much....but, why?
More Ethelbert taken as Gospel. And, thanks, all you Dominionists, for creating another Class struggle, as you use your superior wealth and connections to influence OUR Country and World politics so that all will comply and submit to you, and more, in His Holy Name. I thank you for showing me publicly your true thoughts and loving ideas- DOMINION over us all....in Love, of course! For Him, most certainly indeed. Bunk.
Go reread the Gospels, please and thank you!
Back to the thread.
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johnj
someone asked about more thorough theological books. A place to begin is the "academic" section of christianbook.com
Bible Reference Tools: Handbook, Atlas, Dictionary - Christianbook.com
the Academic section offers more thorough studies in the areas of Biblical languages, theology, Biblical studies, apologetics, church history, theological dictionaries, theological encyclopedias, etc.
Basics of Classical Syriac Video Lectures: A Complete Course for the Beginner: Steven C. Hallam: 9780310535171 - Christianbook.com
23 session DVD class on basics of Syriac. This page has a 19 minute video segment on the alphabet you can view
There is a matching book. The class is $70, class and book package is $94
In certain categories you can refine the book search by searching for semi-technical or technical level books
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DontWorryBeHappy
Greasespotters:
For those of you who can’t afford more classes and books, or just vomit at the thought, there are a number of folks who do lots of really excellent and academically legitimate work in and with Syriac language textual criticism of New Testament scripture. Bob Wassung in CT comes to mind.
Don’t let his affiliation with Jalvis’ TLTF confuse you. Bob has a genuine and impressive background in the study of Syriac. He has published numerous articles and runs an online independent study group for those interested.
Our good friend Penworks also knows some of the old Syriac/Aramaic legitimate researchers from the days she worked with them in the Research Team of the mid 1980s.
If your interest in Syriac is profound and you desire to seriously study it and understand it linguistically, then, imho, books and classes as recommended by our friend johnj above are an excellent starting point. But, if you just want to understand how Vic, and Walter manipulated the Aramaic Dept. and bullied Bernita Jess and her copse Aramaic assistants in the Research Dept., then you might even be able to find enough right here in the GSC archives to give you all the accurate info you need. Whatever you choose, enjoy!
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Also look into University of Chicago which has been studying Aramaic/Syriac manuscripts since the 1970's
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penworks
Or, for something completely different along these lines, there's a very compelling argument for doing away with bible study altogether in a "shocking" book called The End of Biblical Studies (gasp!) by Hector Avalos, PhD. Prometheus Books. 2007.
Just sayin … there is an alternative viewpoint for those interested in questioning the value of continuing to hammer away at biblical texts in hopes of recreating "the original." Even if we did reach that goal, what would we have? A text that still contains contradictions (four different viewpoints in the 4 gospels), violence against "unbelievers," in the Hebrew Bible, condemnation of homosexuals, subjugation of women, etc.
Just sayin … let's take a look at bibliolatry and get honest about that. Perhaps this is a topic for the Doctrinal thread. Sigh …
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