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My point is that the ripples of The Way's extremism are far reaching--through generations, not just those that got involved back in the 60's, 70's and 80's. How terrible to feel as though the community that shaped you would want you to be dead.

Good stuff DWBH. Works-based so-called christianity will always leave a person empty and unsatisfied. The genuine article puts the capital "C" back in Christ, makes him Lord in reality and is all about living a relationship with Him. Something these antichrists know nothing about flapping their jaws in the breeze and setting themselves up to be the mediator to cure your works problem, which of course will involve sending them money, because all that hot air making is hard work and deserves compensation, don-cha-know....

Also, just wanted to bring it up in light of TWI, I remember many of their "mind-reading" tricks especially at HQ or another root locale involved having a flock of spineless tattletale spies who go around and report to the top on everything. I talked to a clergy woman later who detailed some of this out - how she and husband were put in a "unit" (read trailer) with another family to live per TWI housing requirements, and the prez cabinet person would have her come tattle on private details in life with the other couple. Hey I guess that's one benefit they don't list of going on staff - you can experience a flock of spineless tattletale spy seagulls.

One thought I had on the LGBTQ movement - that it probably is not a new thing under the sun. I know Rome had some practices and beliefs I've read about historically, besides Bible references. I bet all of that was commonly practiced in Rome - maybe not trans medical like today. Of course there is a balance, and yes the movement will have to address issues like 3% of the population dictating an inordinate amount of policy proportionally, and as you mentioned people getting different ideas about children - raising gender neutral. I mean it doesn't hurt me how people raise their children, and to my thoughts she kind of misses the point of the movement anyway which tries to communicate kids gravitate towards a sexuality or choice by 6 or 7. Meaning they on their own do it, and it has little to do with the environment they are raised in. But the Bible fundamentalists on this point are really just modern-day Pharisees. To think that God would put a genetic tendency towards something to do with sexual identity and attraction into a person that is by His standards condemning them to death means that their idea of God is a cruel, manipulative and abusive tyrant. No idiots, that would be you projecting your own traits onto God. Or your Pharisaic interpretation of scripture. I mean GTFO and go back to flogging yourself - leave me out of it.

thanks for that post, Don't Worry - very incisive! For some reason that made me think of Luke 9: 49 & 50 - where John came to Jesus Christ and said they (John and some other disciples) saw someone casting out demons in Jesus' name - we tried to stop him because he wasn't affiliated with our group (T-Bone paraphrase); Jesus responded with saying don't hinder him - whoever is not against us is for us. edited: wanted to tack on a clarification - i did not intend to convey the idea that any offshoots of TWI are doing some form of service for Jesus Christ that is similar to other groups; i merely wanted to criticize the snobbish exclusivity of offshoots - i.e. "you can't do jack-squat unless you're with us and know what we know."....and to cut everyone "some slack" - i'll speak very broadly now and say it another way: whoever is not antagonistic to Jesus Christ can't be all that bad.

Ya know.........as much as these vain babblers say they live to serve Christ by His grace and mercy, TWIt-n-vic, TLTF, STFI, wrenn, SOWERS, finnegan, rood, sides, et al, they, more than any other Christians I know of, are among the most works oriented bible idolaters on the planet. EVERYTHING in life, death, and in between has to to with their forged and foibled "Written Word of God". They even teach Jesus Christ only had "the written word" (The Old Testament) to go on for everything he said and did always. Nothing works in their ritualistic, over-structured "minustray" without the bibliolatry DPW ingrained in them. "The word, the word, and nothing but the word!" The entire context of jally's new piffle redux, JCDOA, is all wierwilleism and other smarmy bible-crap. And, it's all based on what YOU DO, or don't do according to da woid. God is completely limited by your "believing action" just like he was in TWIt. God is not in control! Either the debbil is or YOU are, BY YOUR CHOICE. So, your will trumps God's will, because no matter what, YOU must not blame God for YOUR defects in faith and practice. It's YOUR fault not His. Works get you "rewards(or not sic!) at da bema. If YOU don't do what THEY say Da Woid says you must do you lose. There's more to their eternal life than just making it to paradise. You got to make God's work in and through Christ and the salvation They accomplished better! You gots to get rewards for following Christ. How do you get them? Not by how much word you know but how much word YOU DO......WORKS. It's all up to the choices YOU make. God and Christ are powerless unless YOU choose to believe jally's version of da Woid. WOW! What an insult to God and His Son, IMO. That must be why jally's latest WWF "teaching" is all about how suffering is the key to good Christian character and victorious living. How's that working for ya jally?

I've had The Confidence Game on my Kindle for a few months now - but have to finish 3 other books i'm reading first (Going Clear on Scientology, The Proud Tower, a portrait of the world before WWI, and Life Itself, a memoir of Roger Ebert)....and besides that i've gotten lost in binge-watching Lost and coupled with some long hours at work - i'm way behind in my reading....i know - i should get my priorities in order...in that case Lost comes first ..... but seriously - thanks for sharing that quote from Confidence Game - that has given me a renewed interest in getting to that soon - thanks Rocky!

The Confidence Game: Why we fall for it every time

When it comes to figuring out what someone's thinking, 2 completely mundane methods are the COLD READ and the HOT READ. Both are used by so-called psychics all the time. The COLD READ begins with generic messages that could apply to most people, while the mentalist watches all the reactions of the person, and tailors his responses accordingly. "I see him dressed formally.... *person hesitates as if that's incorrect*....which is odd because I sense he normally doesn't dress up." The person gives things away in their reactions, and often in the responses they give. Someone saying that a child is in trouble may get the pigeon to blurt out a name-after which it's incorporated into the reading. The next thing they know, the person's agreeing to pay lots of money because they're convinced the mentalist knew things. A HOT READ is rarer, but more effective, especially when added to a cold-read. In a Hot Read, the mentalist has gotten ahold of information about the other person, like a diary, or an autobiography ("From Birth to the Corps") or someone else hands them a personal history of the pigeon. It's FAR more effective because the person has no clue that the mentalist has a mundane information source so they're more convinced. (Like when someone told cg about some problems at HQ, and the clueless people automatically assumed that God Almighty snitched on their issues because they couldn't imagine a mundane reason he would know-but we had the person who told him speak up to us, and also to them when they started imagining that.) Depending on the specifics, the skill of the mentalist, and the gullability of the audience, a mentalist can develop quite a following. We had a thread where both types were demonstrated (mostly the cold read in its most basic form) in response to the supposed "personal prophecy" nonsense that ces/stfi peddles and refuses to discuss. We saw how easy it is to set up the basics for that and make it look like it's really special knowledge of the pigeon. (Raf also demonstrated the "hot read" at one point, purely as illustration.) "Step Right Up, Get your own Personal Prophecy" was the thread.

Did you do that on purpose? You just reiterated what was implied by Way leadership.

Going back to the notion of academic research related to social and emotional intelligence, I just found this article published yesterday.

ladies and gentlemen, that is amazing !!!!! i have never mentioned on this thread that i am bass-player-centric when i listen to music!!!! let's hear it for the one and only Waysider the Magnificent !

I was trying to read your mind. All I could make out was "something, something, Donald Duck Dunn".

This picture is for you, Don't Worry....that's Luna with her soulful look.

Well, well, wel-come

Hey Lanikaigal, You seem like a very interesting person...

Mmmmmm! Looks delicious. If you're not going to drink that, I'll take it off your hands. Oh, and welcome aboard.

Indeed, to exploit vulnerable people who were too trusting and not guarded enough... and no doubt did assist with mindreading, to a degree.

great post LaniK - i don't think that's off topic at all; those birth to the way corps papers was one of the many tricks they used to exploit people - like what Twinky was sharing about - finding out your weaknesses one way or another - to develop a profile of their target. yikes!

Hi LaniK and welcome to Grease Spot !!! I can relate to lurking; my wife Tonto was into previous ex-way sites before Grease Spot – between what she shared from them as well as from Grease Spot got me interested enough to join here. I got a kick out of your wide-eyed-with-wonder reference. I think a lot of folks were that way – myself included; Grease Spot draws upon the experience and wisdom of us all; I believe this place can help one develop critical thinking skills – and over time that wide-eyed-with-wonder look is slowly replaced with vision that easily penetrates the fog of nonsense. thanks for sharing……..I’m glad you joined - have a cup of cappuccino, kick back and enjoy Grease Spot!

Indeed. At least one poster once said that vpw called her in to put the moves on her-and had her "From Birth to the Corps" paper IN HIS HAND when she arrived. Can't get much more overt than that.... I never thought about OTHER PEOPLE having access to those. If I'd ever had to write one, I'm sure I deliberately would have left some things out and invented some things specifically for privacy and revelation reasons- if they know the actual and not the written version, they might know by revelation....

Welcome! Many or most of us have been there. Even down to the "CoC in Upper Manhattan" thing. (They really liked Upper Manhattan, apparently.) Hope you like it here. If you want, you can even join the games we're playing. They're currently paused because we're all watching the Olympics, but I think that's going to taper off by Monday morning, so it's a good time to join the games. Whether or not you do, feel free to join in any discussion and share your thoughts-even if they're unpopular. It's nice to be free to agree to disagree.

(This may be off topic ... and my apology if it is ... I'm new here!) ... but this topic made me think of something a lot of corps folks may recall. Maybe some "mind-reading revelation" in TWIT came about because vee-pee (and other select "leaders") had access to certain people's "autobiographies"! A requirement for Corps folks -- after a certain year, I think -- when one arrived on "campus" was to write one. It was to be titled "From Birth to the Corps." This was a virtual blueprint to identify the most vulnerable among us, for sure! For instance, if one shared about sexual abuse in your past -- it would pretty much make a person ripe for the picking when it came to choosing someone who could be persuaded to engage in the sexual exploitation/abuse/crimes that we all know now were rampant among the corrupted leadership, starting from vee-pee on down. God only knows how many people had access to those things -- and how they may have played a part in how people were manipulated by false "revelation" from those in leadership who wanted that information to use people. Again, sorry if this is not quite on topic. Little did so many of us who were so trusting and idealistic ever think that sharing our life stories with someone as "Godly" as Dr. Weirwille to read would ever have such a darker side to it!!

"Diameter of the Ages," what the heck is that? This class sounds like "Die-a-Minute" - the excerpt that DWBH posted is more than enough for me. :confused:/>

yeah you could say that about the old class too - PFAL.....man oh man let me count how many times i went to that funeral...

"Hey, gang! We have a new class and it's D.O.A.!" Heh. How much more appropriate can it get?

One of the things I see with some of the offshoots of twi are listed here by Jesus. Pride will make a person do some pretty hurtful things to people. It'll make them think they're right, when they're dead wrong. It'll make them hold on to things when they should let them go. They'll teach things for doctrine they shouldn't. Sadly it goes on. Mark 7:15 "There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 "If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!"[fn] 17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, "Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 "because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?"[fn] 20 And He said, "What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

The only time I remember seeing something the weekend it opened was, IIRC, "Lord of the Rings-Fellowship of the Ring." That was by accident. I had gotten off work and walked past a movie theater. There was no crowd and no line waiting to buy tickets. (There were people waiting but hardly a crowd.) I checked. In a few minutes, the midnight showing was going to start (which would let out something like 3:30am) and most people wanted to get home earlier than that or not stay up all the way till the end. So, I shrugged, got a ticket, hit the concessions, and enjoyed the movie, with only a few yawns once we hit 3am. (I was a serious nightowl.) Otherwise, I can wait for a less-crowded matinee during the week or something. And even moreso nowadays when I'm less interested in the latest offerings, most of the time.

Hmmmm.... in other words, the word of Wierwille is the will of Wierwille/god?

Charlene, They actually do NOT have a research department. At least there's nobody with a brown name tag that has "research" on it any more. They claim to have one, but the only research that goes on is when a teacher for the STS submits the teaching to the publication department to be "researched" to make sure it lines up with the collaterals. No new research is being done. They say it's because it's not being submitted, but that's just not true. People submit stuff and Rosalie fires them for it. It's "the collaterals, the collaterals, and nothing but the collaterals" these days

Hi BlueCord, I'm just chiming in to welcome you to this most rambunctious- in- the- best- way group of people around. Have no doubt. You are on the right track to disassociate yourself with TWI. Life outside is great, we have civil rights here, we can grow and follow our hearts. You can too. I trust you and your wife can leave without any big uproar. Respect others and they will respect you. That is not to say you agree with them or want to fellowship with them. It means by their behavior you decide it is best for you to go elsewhere. This is all an understatement. What I want to say its, Run, BlueCord, Run! A little about me (some of this may come in handy). I left in 87. It felt like an escape to me because of the terrible paranoia at HQ. I was in the 2nd Corps with LCM, I was married to a clergyman, I was a mother, I had been a researcher on the Aramaic project, and I had been loyal for 17 years. Boom. My personal crisis came while on the research team and then VP died and then Geer swooped in, and then and then and then.... long story short, I lost all but a couple of friends, but the new life I gained was more than worth it. You find that you can not only survive but thrive if you just remember TWI does not define who you are, nor does their propaganda. Cheers to your courage. Thanks for visiting us. I hope you find helpful info and abundant empathy here. Let me know if I can help answer any questions you might have, especially about the research dept. Just curious, do they still have a so-called research department any more? All the best, Charlene Edge

BlueCord, I wish you and your wife well on your journey out of TWI. God bless and prosper you both. At the Cafe, we're individuals with individual points of view. We are not TWI clones, all saying the same thing. Unless you are a VPW apologist (which you're not) your point of view is as valid as everyone else's. You can also expect your PoV to change over time. VPW was dead before I got involved; I suffered under Pontius Martindale. :mad2:/> For myself, when I first stumbled across this site, I was horrified, really horrified, at the things people were saying against this great ministry, TWI. How could people say such things? I was appalled at a number of levels. And yet... and yet... the stories people told had a strange coherency with my own experience. A strange ring of truth that was most disconcerting. As I continued to read here, I found that a lot of my suppressed concerns about TWI were voiced and the truth behind those concerns was articulated. I read with fascinated horror. This site is one of the places that set me free from TWI lies. Now, I enjoy exploring life with God and finding new ways to help and serve other people. Genuinely. No element of fear, or ostracism for non-compliance. I appreciate the wisdom of mature Christians from other strands of Christianity - and getting along with them without feeling I need to defend my PoV or be browbeaten by their PoV. Indeed, this very evening I've had a most interesting conversation with a deeply committed Trinitarian Christian and we can respect each others views of who Jesus Christ is (and how he came to be) and his gifts to us, and still learn from each other. You and your wife please just put your confidence in God and in the Lord Jesus Christ to guide you through what may seem strange times, and lead you to a place of peace and rest and green pasture, where you can first rebuild yourselves and your relationships, and then go out with strength wherever your path may lead. We here will help you on your spiritual journey, but no-one will tell you where to go or what to think. I'd like to extend a sincere invitation to your wife to join us and give voice to her legitimate concerns. If she doesn't want to join as a cafe resident, she can come as a lurker and just see what we talk about. If she comes in to "drink the coffee" [sign in], she's welcome to argue about anything she chooses. :drink:/>

Hi Blue Cord, I've marked in bold red your comments I'd like to say something about: Your wife is right in thinking that way….i think most folks when they first leave TWI are bitter and angry – and usually have more than that going on at the time. I think you'll find many folks at Grease Spot have mellowed out with the passage of time and in working things out – that's some of the mental baggage I talked about in my previous post. Btw – there's nothing wrong with being angry – sometimes it does take a "righteous" anger to spur someone on to speak up and right a wrong (think about Mark 3:5, Jesus' anger over the hardness of hearts and Matthew 21 where Jesus drove out those buying and selling, overturned tables, etc. to cleanse the Temple – I don't think his demeanor was happy and laid back). Anyway – like I said in my other post - open and honest communication between you and your wife is essential; matter of fact, my wife Tonto was into Grease Spot and its other "incarnations" long before I joined – and she got me interested in Grease Spot finally with things she would share because I plum run out of ideas on how to figure out the crazy-town-mess known as TWI....besides…. I think TWI was a man's world in many ways - I think a lot of guys/husbands felt superior to women, would snub them rather than consider their viewpoint on something. So when your wife says something like "be careful. You don't know those people" that's good advice. You "know" us only thru cyberspace. However, i want to offer another bit of advice to run in tandem while you're working things out - modifying what she said and pointing it back at TWI. Be careful – you really don't know the extent of the damage TWI has caused…I don't think anyone ever will.

This is so accurate. I was talking to a guy last night who was dropped from the corp and/or in residence training and I was explaining to him how I'm reading Karl's book. One of the things that I mentioned was that I hadn't even been born by the time VPW died. I didn't get into the Way until a decade after Martindale. So, all I've heard about VPW is what TWI wants you to hear. I start reading Karl's book and the parts about VPW have me absolutely horrified. Then I start thinking kind of like TWI has brainwashed us to think. "I wasn't there. I didn't see it. Maybe it's all made up." But when I was talking to this guy last night he and I came to the same conclusion. "Where there's smoke, there's fire." And there's a whole hell of a lot of smoke if even half of what Karl wrote is true. So, I believe this guy was the scum of the Earth. It's just left me kind of in shock, though. I'm certain I'll fit in just fine. I already like talking with y'all. I like that you already understand the lingo, you've been there, worked through the same stuff I'm working through and you're telling me it's normal. It's like "there's a light at the end of the tunnel" kind of scenario, and it's refreshing.

BlueCord: we all have different journeys. Most people on this board are still Christian or spiritual in one way or another. I myself am not. Nobody is going to brainwash you into anything here because we can't even agree with each other long enough to decide what to brainwash you into. You'd end up being an atheist-trinitarian-fundamentalist-evangelical-wiccan-dispensationalist-covenant-theologian who believes the Bible contains no contradictions or errors except for the errors and contradictions it contains. You may end up thinking Wierwille was anything from the second coming of the apostle Paul to a traveling salesman who always believes in the band, kid. To a rapist. You will be respected, but as you work out to sort truth from error, angry hyperbole from history, reality form/with spirituality, be assured that some of us will agree with you, some will not, and in the end we will always be happy to see you. Even when we're not. Happy posting.

Lot's of good insight for you, BlueCord, in the comments before mine. One of the most important things that will help you keep from getting sucked back in eventually will be to establish a support network of friends not connected to TWI. That's one of the benefits of connecting with a church near your home. It may be difficult to find one with which you feel comfortable with all of its teachings. That's less important (whether they agree doctrinally with what you learned in TWI) than making solid social contacts. Of course, churches aren't the only places to establish a good, supportive social network. Congratulations on recognizing the organizational problems and being willing to act on your concerns.

I lost friends, forever, when I left. However you exit, expect the loss of some and be willing to accept it - you and your wife have a life to live. You have a convoluted assocciation with The Way - numerous ties. Your exit will be quite differenct than I and my wife. Follow your heart and your logical thoughts BlueCord, memories will haunt you, expect it but grasp hold on the freedom and the awakened life you have chosen - DON'T LOOK BACK. You are not turning your back on God - always keep that in your head. If anyone tells you otherwise, and they will, just let it go, let it go.

I think I understand; you sound resolute in what you say – and expressing a concern of being sucked back may just be anticipating all the manipulative techniques leadership could use – and that concern is a good thing! It might be some good prep to anticipate scenarios and dialogues and rehearse your response. I left during my assignment year – (I think that's called the practicum year – hell, I asked my wife and she couldn't remember either – /> – that's maybe a good thing - anyway it's after 2 years in residence) – in the aftermath of "passing of a patriarch" (POP) I kept coming up with questions, questions, and more questions about everything; first I had questions about issues that were brought up in POP, since TWI leadership stonewalled me on all points, I slowly began focusing a critical eye on everything – even PFAL; one verse (listed below) I kept referring to whether it was in my resignation letters to TWI leadership or to believers in my area (we still went to various Twigs for a while – it was awkward though being the former area coordinator and wanting to just hang out and fellowship ) But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good - I Thessalonians 5:21 NASB As far as attempting to sort out the truth from lies in TWI's teachings – I'm sure you'll get a lot of feedback from Grease Spot; you may find it helpful to do some Internet searches and check out mainstream Christian doctrines – merely as an exercise in alternate viewpoints and analyzing ala I Thessalonians 5:21; wouldn't hurt to check out critical thinking on the Internet too.... A few books that helped me at first were:Scripture Twisting by J Squire Understanding the Bible by Stott Beyond Seduction by Hunt Besides re-examining all TWI doctrine you'll probably find some mental baggage along your journey; that may prove to be a trickier thing to work out. That's where Grease Spot comes in handy – and having open and honest communication with your wife. I wish you and your wife the best on your journey to freedom. Welcome to Grease Spot, Blue Cord – I'm glad you joined !!!!

I will NOT be talked out of my decision. I'm sure there will be attempts. But I'm done. Like you said, it's a cult. And there are still great people that are stuck in it or just now beginning to realize it like I am. What I'm struggling with right now is trying to sort out the truth from the lies in their teachings. I know a lot of folks here aren't Christians, but my wife and I still are. A lot of what was taught in the classes seem to make sense to us. Like, I have my doubts about the speaking in tongues and everything, but I still speak in tongues and it still helps me feel good and peaceful. Then at the same time it sounds like a bunch of gibberish to me. It's crazy. I haven't started the search for a church yet, but I'm about to Google local churches in my area. And to answer your question MRAP, I just want to go quietly. The last thing I want to do is alienate my friends or family that is still in. Like I said about the PEOPLE, there are good people that are in. They legitimately strive to be good Christians and walk in love. Those are the people that I don't want to hurt. So, while it may be "good" for The Way that I don't want to rock the boat, I'm not really thinking of them. I just want to wash my hands of the organization. Quit going to fellowship, quit having people call me about fellowship, no more classes, no more forced witnessing. For the most part I don't feel some overwhelming need to burn the "ministry". I mean, there are times when I feel really strongly about them and I do want to sort of stick it to them, but it wouldn't do me any good. It would really just draw out the process in my opinion.

BlueCord One thing that helps, in my opinion, is coming to grips with the reality that The Way is just a cult. It's not some elite organization, striving for some noble goal. It's just a cult, like thousands of cults that have come before it and thousands yet to come. You're not reneging on a sacred vow nor should you allow anyone to make you feel guilty or ashamed. Even the worst of organizations has people who, as individuals, are goodhearted. The organization, itself, is corrupt to its very core. I first became involved in 1972. Even back then, it was corrupt and evil. I didn't know that, of course, nor did many of the genuinely good people I met along the way. Get out while you can. Don't be talked out of your decision.