Leaderboard

Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of the manipulation and exploitation from the cult. It is my belief that most will recognize the early warning signs of an abusive relationship, sound the alarm for others and stay away. Many of us were deeply entrenched in the programs and networking of this cult. Whether it was WOW, Fellow Laborers, or Way Corps.....we saw the underpinnings that were non-Christian or pseudo-Christian, at best. The higher up the hierarchy, the more Pharisaic the cult's colors show thru. And, when wierwille enters the spotlight of Scriptural scrutiny, the drunkenness, serial plagiarism, bullying, striker, sexual predation, misogynic undertones, etc.....put him in the category of a man of the flesh. While there are still some who idolize wierwille, and post on GSC......their drumbeating of "this great man" is falling on deaf ears. As adults, we've moved on to the weightier matters of Scriptural integrity....or pursuits in life, career and family that give fulfillment. We see thru twi's deceptive scam that is played on the youth. We stay true to our own personal convictions and a core of GSC-posters stay committed to warning others of this evil that lurks near the flock of God. God bless. Happy New Year 2023.

Hey, all. It’s been awhile since I’ve stepped into the diner. I’m outing myself today because it’s too painful to keep my silence anymore, and I’m struggling right now. My name is Leah - I’m LCM’s oldest child. I don’t know what to do next...I feel like I need to speak, but I don’t know what to say. I’m just so tired of hurting. Penworthy, it’s lovely to “see” you here. I so appreciate your compassion...

I left twi over 30 years ago and have not been comfortable in any church all that time. My mind kept judging their doctrine no matter how loving and accepting the people were. When I began to spend time on GSC, beginning with the Absent Christ thread, I began to see how much of twi's doctrine on the holy spirit field, the law of believing and the "word takes the place of the absent Christ" was inaccurate and had crippled my walk with Christ. It's only been four months and now I've started to fellowship with Christians in a church where I feel at home. A lot of what I'm seeing there lines up with what I've learned on GSC. The important point to realize is that for me, I needed to begin having fellowship with Christ before I could fellowship with others who belong in his body outside of twi. What helped me to connect with my Lord was posting on GSC so the believers there could show from scripture how it is God's will that we have fellowship with Christ. Once I understood that and I could open the door to receiving him, he went from being someone I knew about in my head to being someone alive in my life. I still read and send posts on GSC so I can continue learning and maybe help others as I've been helped.

DWBH, what can I say? Thank you SO much for the love and your comments. I can’t quite find the words to tell you all how much I appreciate being welcome here. To answer a couple comments - I have 4 therapists and am on a battery of meds. I’ve been doing this latest round of hard work with said therapists for a year and a half. I think what has discouraged me is how deep the injuries go into my subconscious mind. But I am and will continue working. Being ME here is a big step I’ve wanted to take for years. Thanks again for the comfort <3

Insanity is often quoted as......"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ..........but with cult-splinter insanity, I find myself wondering if they are doing the same thing over and over again desiring the SAME results. With nearly 20 years of internet exposure..... Waydale and Greasespot Café.......surely IF these corps leaders had an ounce of integrity and empathy for others, they'd see the errors of their ways, no? What do ALL of the cult offshoots have in common? A self-appointed leader claims to have "the Word" and teach "it" to others. He offers up dissention and disagreements with martindale or rivenbark........and gives wierwille adulation. Without objective reflection and further seminary training or study, he tweaks the wierwille-teachings only slightly. Same pyramid structure is implemented..........same centralization, same lording over others, same rules on giving money. Now that you've met the *new boss, same as the old boss*..........how can you possibly expect DIFFERENT RESULTS? After exiting The Way International Cult.........how many got entrapped into another splinter group for another decade or more? Insanity right? And, within these various splinters......how many more twisted perversions were promoted and propagated by the spiritual elite (cough, cough) among us? The Geer group plunged into the posthumous indoctrinations of geer's idol, wierwille. CES/STFI grafted in new age, self-help quackery like Momentus and personal prophesies and nose spiders. Egads! And, CFF took you back to the nostalgia "good old days of twi" when that young blood was coursing thru your veins. Oh, the memories....... Here a splinter, there a splinter.............everywhere there is ANOTHER splinter. Whether the R&R group will get rooted is still questionable.......but Rico's upstart - Oikeos is another baby cult that is flailing its arms and legs. Nourished on the milk of "Wierwille's Word" this infant will grow up in the image of wierwille...........same result, same outcome as its mother-cult. IMO.........these splinters have NOTHING to do with serving and ministering to others, but rather are SELF-SERVING OVERLORDS. These corps cleave to the cult model, because they have no real-life job experience in the real world. At best, they would be hard to find middle management jobs, sales jobs or seek self-employment. There are near-zero employers out there who are willing to hire a 56-66 year old man who has been fossilized into an obscure "Christian" group for 35 or 40 years. Two years ago, I documented a timeline of my experiences during the Martindale Era.....Insanity on Steroids.......and it was crazy then. But now, seeing these corps who stayed ANOTHER 17 YEARS of Rivenbark's Reign of Error.........and now, wanting to claim the mantle of *Leadership* is laugh-out-loud appalling. What a bunch of weasels. Until they clean and sanctify themselves from all of wierwille cult, top to bottom, thoroughly and throughly............they are a blight on the body of Christ. They disappoint and diminish and destroy by seeking opportunities for filthy lucre's sake. Beware of their pernicious ways as they twist and pervert words to indulge and profit in this seduction. They seek those who've had their minds grooved with cult indoctrination and servitude, rather than do the hard work of reaching others. Beware of cults. Beware of groupthink. "In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. " Friedrich Nietzsche

twi is still run by old fogeys who seized power so they could have the money and the power, and won't let go. They're trying to figure out how to interest young people, since without young people, twi's fading into obscurity. It's an old people ministry that hasn't appealed to young folks since the 1980s, and that means, as their population ages out and some drop dead of old age and others leave, they don't have any replacements to pay 10% or more of their income because they are suckers to keep the luxuries coming in for the people at the top. So, twi now has a handful of old farts in power trying to convince young people that twi is actually relevant and meaningful. How are they doing that? They're reviving what worked in the 1970s with the baby boomers, in their own foolish youth. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.

For years I'd told myself, "Someday I will talk about what happened while I was a member of The Way International. I will tell how Limb Coordinator Christoph Stoop threatened my life when the US Army JAG and CID offices were investigating an incident that occurred involving us and others at my secure Army microwave transmitter station during my assignment in Europe. Those events eventually ended with me being (oddly) medically discharged a full 18 months early, after being hospitalized three separate times for suicidal ideation. Furthermore, as the guilt and fear consumed me post-discharge, and after several suicide attempts, I found myself in a VA psych ward, which was the beginning of my recovery with the help of the VA. It was a cathartic experience. I became stronger during that lengthy and intensive treatment process. It was excruciatingly slow and painful – but in the end, I am more whole today than ever before thanks to the caring professionals at the VA. During that time, I was evaluated for multiple service-connected disabilities, including PTSD related to the experiences centered on TWI. I was rated permanently disabled and awarded 100% compensation. I’ve never felt money fixes anything but it has opened doors for educational opportunities and housing possibilities I would not have realized beforehand." Thanks for listening.

I feel that, thanks Waysider. I have more to share but it took 25 years to tell my story. I'm still basking in the relief of letting the first chapter out. It's been a marathon of a life. Thanks for seeing me.

Happy New Year spotters! I am bumping this thread for all those who may still be stuck in TWI nostalgia bias. Perhaps you like me have seen a recent depiction of the “Jesus Revolution” with all of the social happenings in the 60s and 70s that preceded the Way Ministry and other groups like Calvary Chapel and all of the tales about the groovy Christians of Rye NY or the Life magazine articles or the House of Acts in SF California. Seeing all of that I was reminded of the motivation I had in my youth to seek out grassroots truth in the form of spiritual wisdom from the Bible and Christian fellowship. As I pursued that as a primary goal in life, got married, had kids, and worked out how to live as a Christian man father and husband I ran into direct conflict with the cult I was in, The Way International, and what the Bible taught about Christian life, marriage, family, careers, debt, and many other major categories of life where they were stepping beyond scriptural boundaries and into areas of life in the nunya category. Nunya d@mn bidness. I also witnessed several leadership couples where the Way broke up their marriage, convinced them they had major spiritual problems and forced them back into their training program again. And I witnessed the Way performing libelous acts talking about these people to their congregations and acting well beyond any authority reasonable for a church group. I witnessed any attempt to restore equal balance met by excommunication. So the times I could be swayed by nostalgia and the idea of a large church with many friends (they were fake) I recollect the doctrinal and practical manipulation of these people and others who have published their accounts, and I thank God on my knees that I am no longer subservient to little Napoleons and their Machiavellian imaginations and their evil acts against those in their own house. I thank God for freedom, like the freedom that the concept of the United States of America can bring when people aren’t being political moral midgets, like the freedom that emancipation can bring and has brought to minorities, like the freedom to worship God without any sense of lack of worth that another man or woman tries to introduce. There is a time for nostalgia. I can break out an old vinyl album I replaced and go back to my roots, to a simpler time filled with faith without manipulation, to a time of infinite possibility. But I have zero nostalgia of being under the authority of moral midgets and performing rote roles of service to magnify others and their egos. I will not sacrifice my future and family’s future to run a church for a group too cheap to build one in my house and try and hype a new lie which is the same old lie. God did not speak to Victor Paul Wierwille and give him divine instruction for all mankind that he would teach “the Word” like it hasn’t been known since the first century. That is a lie from a book they no longer claim and a lie that is not in the man’s biography written by his spouse. Freedom > Nostalgia

As wierwille's twi grew in the 1970's, it made a quantum leap from the 5th corps to the 6th corps. From the numbers I remember, the 5th corps had 75 graduates.... whereas, the 6th corps started in Emporia with near 340 corps. It was a massive leap in numbers and could not be trained at headquarters, so the trustees searched for a location and took out a second mortgage/loan to acquire the Emporia campus. Along with this risk.... twi was ill-equipped to handle the free-rolling, rowdy individuals that were part of this 6th corps influx. Thus, heavy-handed measures came into play. One of my big contentions with corps training was that it was obsessed with obedience. Far too much emphasis was placed on following leadership..... rather than diligence or spiritual vigilance. Why the excessive need for obedience? Control. Corps coordinators made it a dominant priority to rein corps into a herd-mentality. In other words, twi FEARED individual thought (and questioning authority). It is far easier to rule by fear than to rule with love. At one point, they shut the corps program down with an ultimatum..... OBEY or LEAVE. Why couldn't they gather the body of corps together for an open dialogue? Why, even today, does twi give GSC the *silent treatment* after 20+ years? For the same reasons that wierwille highlighted certain verses of scripture in pfal and ignored others. He was working towards a manufactured outcome. Remember his little "story" in pfal when wierwille talks about "The sower and the seed?" And, now Maggie, wierwille asks, "What do you think the good seed represents?" And, Snowball Pete, "What do you think this good seed is?" Wierwille's point.....STOP THINKING about what you think it means and keep reading. Yet, time and again, wierwille injects his thinking into other verses as the class unfolds. It wasn't only the things twi highlighted thru the years that were relevant, but what things THEY DISMISSED and MEMORY-HOLED that spoke volumes. We came to pfal or corps training as individuals..... but graduated as a part of wierwille's "crack troops" or corps grads. Where in the scriptures does Jesus specifically call the men who followed him as "my disciples" in the possessive term? Yet, wierwille brands his corps as cattle.... "my corps." The corps letters were littered with this group-inclusive terminology. The Way International fear us. Why do they fear us? They fear we will have our own thoughts and speak up for ourselves. They fear we will become independent of their branding and no longer be subjugated to their will. They fear we will question their authority over us and relegated to the dustbin of history. They fear we will stand up for ourselves and start banding together. They fear we will become stronger and their influence will become weaker. They fear we will use our power against them as they fall further into irrelevance. They fear that we will awaken others to the deception that they perpetuate. They fear our free-thinking and tossing aside the burdens of fear and guilt. They fear that we are no longer captive to their authority. They fear we are independent. Philosopher Bertrand Russell quote (after devastation of WWI): Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth — more than ruin, more even than death. Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habits; thought is anarchic and lawless, indifferent to authority, careless of the well-tried wisdom of the ages. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid…Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man.

The more I consider these myriad of tactics, the more examples come to mind. Understandably, the more one is isolated and immersed in this realm of control.... the higher the levels of abuse. That's why the corps program was the ultimate stronghold wierwille utilized to attain his narcissistic power and control over others. Everything about the corps program gave wierwille and corps coordinators access to twist and mold young minds. When you signed on the line to "be corps"... you entered the door of bait-and-switch. Generic terminology of the corps commitment was an accelerated *mission creep* bonanza. Young, committed minds surrounded by cunning leaders and peers was pressurized. Those who fell short were publically castigated for all to witness. The cult held absolute control over the daily schedule and could change it at any time. Keeping corps off-balance stripped individuals from any control over their daily lives or future. Edgy and dangerous exercises.... colon cleanse, hitch-hiking at dark, safety at work projects. Death came early for some....even then, wierwille did not adjust or change course. Some young corps girls were selected for wierwille's sexual delight and predatory nature. Resistance to wierwille's "advances" was enough to give her the bum's rush off twi-property. Corps were disposable. Dreams of "serving God" were dashed by one act of disobedience. Isolation, immersion, idolization breeds a world of absolute control over others. Twisted teachings like "the lock box" and "salt covenants" were weapons of control. Corps were used as slave-labor at Camp Gunnison and Tinney, New Mexico (and roa). L.E.A.D. replaced T.F.I. in California. Wierwille stripped John Svmmerville of his authority. Purging those who challenged vpw was evident throughout twi's history. Wierwille did NOT lead by example.... he flaunted his position to smoke and drink at will. By 1977, 1978.... dozens of elder corps were moving towards the exit doors. What's a cult leader to do? Change? LOL. Nope, move younger guys into those vacated positions. Damage control, damage control. Twi was a one-trick pony. Decades of carnival tactics for 8 years (1973-1981) of power and control. Even when transitioning to lcm and stepping down (1981).....wierwille detested giving away power. Wierwille wanted his son, Don, to lead the ministry.... but Don's teaching prowess was lame. So, martindale was chosen because he ALWAYS obeyed wierwille. Nothing about being God's servant. Twi was built on a man of the flesh and remains ungodly to this day.

I do want to address this Mike. You constantly come at me like I have forgotten, or have been talked out of the truth of wierwille, or that I just don't understand where you are coming from. Personally, I have never had a better relationship with God and Jesus Christ - just like it says in the Bible. I spend my time reading scripture and tracking topics through Church history and other avenues. I don't waste my time reading wierwille -- been there done that. I have very dillegently, and judiciously considered and reconsidered most everything I learned from TWI over the past 14 years since I left. Most of wierwille's doctrines are not supported in actual scripture. I don't mean pretending you are a biblical researcher because you know how to use lexicons and concordances where you get to cherrypick your own brand of Christianity...like saying cloak = book case. Anywho - Let me say this again and say it clearly - wierwille was a false prophet who abused the flock he was entrusted with. - wierwille was a thief and liar and also a drunk who liked to take advantage of the Lord's heritage - his people! - his legacy is riddled with lies and occultic based principles such as the law of believing. It is plainly noted that he studied people like Albert Cliffe - a known spiritist. - wierwille wanted people to only read his books because if you branch off too far you will find the sources he stole from and you will also find out the truth on a lot of topics he preached...that truth? He preached a lot of LIES. - The way international is a preservation society dedicated to elevating wierwille up there next to Jesus Christ, the true preeminent one, because they have NOTHING else. No new charismatic cult leaders, no new anything, only the half baked legacy of their drunk a$$ father in the word. Before you talk about me dragging up his sins and compare that locust to King David, et. al. let me say this. I AM a RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC who will openly talk about my past and my sins and they are sordid and many. You know why? Because I have repented and been forgiven and perhaps my story can serve to help others who are caught in the same snares. Wierwille HID his sins and I will do all I can to expose them and the corrupt organization he left behind. It's not out of hate for anything...it's out of a sense of duty to come out from among them and be ye seperate. I will not be associated with anything TWI because the organization is corrupt to the core and a lot of that corruption stems from doctrine, doctrine that is above question and considered proven ministry research by the way international. I will not slink off quietly in the night and not expose what I came here to expose. I will not give a tacit agreement with their practices by supporting them with silence.

VPW's statement that the Bible interprets itself is nonsense. The act of interpretation of any text is done by the reader of the text. People interpret what they read. They are the ones who give it meaning. Surely we can see that this is a basic reason for many different denominations. They have different interpretations of Scripture. People interpret books and make decisions about what the books mean based on lots of factors, such as the times in which the book was written. We're talking about reading literature here. I'll say the obvious: Bibles are collections of pieces of literature. BTW, some Bibles have different pieces of literature in them compared with other Bibles. People who understand what literature is and who were not brainwashed by Wierwille, realize that books don't "interpret themselves." People interpret books. But because many of us who were vulnerable PFAL students and considered VPW as some great Biblical scholar, when he said that nonsense, many of us believed it. BTW, he's not the only Bible teacher who passes along that thoughtless statement. In Undertow I show my experience in realizing that books don't interpret themselves, people interpret books. I highlighted that point mainly for readers who were indoctrinated in The Way. Readers who never bought into Wierwille's propaganda know that already.

Some of you know that in 1987, I escaped the fundamentalism and cult control of The Way International when I drove away from TWI headquarters in New Knoxville, Ohio, and never went back. I don't intend to return there in person. However, by checking in here at GSC every once in a while, I end up revisiting, by way of people's memories and documented facts, some of the terrible problems that issued from cultic beliefs and behaviors of Way leaders and some followers. I also rejoice in much healing. Your stories are important and I thank you for them. Today, I watched the televised coverage of Cassidy Hutchinson give her testimony of what happened behind-the-scenes in the White House leading up to, during, and shortly after the insurrection at the nation's Captial on Jan. 6, 2021. What struck me was how powerful a calm, fact-based, and as-best-as-I-remember personal testimony can be. Likewise, personal testimony here at GSC by former followers who tell the truth about what happened to them while associated with The Way can and HAS helped people understand the dangers of cultic manipulation. And I KNOW it has helped steer some people away from The Way. Some of them write to me. Some of them, particularly some from my daughter's generation whose parents are still in denial about the abuses of VPW, etc., reach out to me after reading Undertow. Thank you, Greasespotters, for your support of Undertow over the years. I urge all of us to continue telling our stories in a manner that invites thoughtful consideration. It's up to us to inform and to heal former Way followers when we can. Let's lay off any distracting nonsense (that shows up in some threads here) and remember: every word matters.

My official involvement in TWI was brief. My emotional involvement is another story. I was introduced to The Way in late December 1986. It took a lot of persuading, but I finally sat through the class nearly two years later. By then I had sat through dozens of hours of teaching tapes and Way music was part of my regular diet. I even taught a couple of times: Before I took the class! I was not abused in or by The Way. No one hurt me. No one stole my girlfriend or wife. I parted with my money voluntarily. i left because I was loyal to those who were fired en masse in the spring of 1989. Leaving The Way did not affect my worship life one whit. I was of the belief that we who were cast aside were the ones who were truly most loyal to the Word as taught to us by Dr. Wierwille. In the decade that followed, I got married and became a fellowship coordinator at our offshoot in the Bronx. I got divorced and had a crisis of conscience. I tried hard to stay true to Biblical principles no matter who taught them, and to reject non-Biblical principles (again, no matter who taught them). I ceased being loyal to any particular group, defending and challenging various offshoots at various times. I also began attending mainstream churches after I moved to Florida. After my divorce, I discovered this online community of former Way believers. In my naiveté, I guess I must have come off as quite arrogant and inflexible. Honestly, I was not emotionally prepared for the realization that people had such a wide variety of experiences. I think I grew with this site, both in my understanding and in my flexibility, at least when it comes to doctrine. Today I am not a Way believer. I am not a believer in any supernatural religion. I am a humanist: I believe it is incumbent on man to identify and seek to solve the problems we create, so that our progeny can live in a future worth living for. I can work with anyone who has the same belief, whether that belief is driven by an underlying belief similar to mine or by the belief that a Higher Power demands it of us. So be it. I am writing this (and opening this thread) because I wanted to articulate a simple truth: The "members" of this web community are not an ideological monolith. The only thing we have in common appears to be that we sat through some version of a class that The Way called "foundational." Some of us experienced more. Some of us, far less. We are not all here because we were hurt, though some of us were. We are not all here because we are bitter, though some of us are. We are not all here because we hate God or the Word. Some of us love both with all our hearts. Others would no sooner hate God than Godzilla, for all their ability to demonstrate their existence. We are in various states of personal recovery. Honestly, I'm here out of habit. I've been done with this stuff for years. But now and then I am called upon to explain some of the things I wrote when I was young, idealistic, and enthusiastic about my faith. What about the Blue Book review and Actual Errors? The Blue Book Review (look it up) is a sincere effort by a sincere Christian to weed out truth from error in the works of VPW. Actual Errors, while limited in scope and purpose, was apparently QUITE influential despite itself. It was, at its heart, a defense of the class and the collaterals: A defense against an effort to exalt them above the Word we purported to believe. It was never intended to be an attack on PFAL. It was intended to be a recognition of the obvious: That PFAL was not perfect. That discussion died out years and years ago. But not and then it comes back up, and my name is attached to it. So now and then I remind people what it was all about. From the horse's mouth, as it were. Anyway, back to this thread: There is no single "why I left the way" experience. There is no single "why I'm still out" experience. We are individuals. We are here to give a reason for where we are today. Just ask us.

Hello! I was in Ohio for most of my life, raised by my two parents who joined the way in the 70's. I was a somewhat enthusiastic "believer" until my early 20s and then I dove in - went Way Disciple after I graduated college then moved in with ministers in Syracuse, New York. I left everything behind and I was so worried that I wouldn't be okay without "God's protection." But I have to say, my life is improving. I have a master's degree, a great job, a great car, and will soon co-own a home. None of that would have been possible if I was still giving away 10%+ of my income and afraid of debt. I feel like I have a brighter future than the Way Royalty (as we jokingly called them in college) who were booted recently. I have transferrable skills, I can talk like a normal person in society, and I no longer have to hide "my" religious views from others. Imagine that.

As a grad of the 2nd Way Corps, I thought I'd pipe up and say a few words. It's no secret that I've rejected associating with The Way and have left its teachings in my rearview mirror. Nevertheless here's my opinion about what Vern should consider doing as the new Way president (although I'm not convinced he'll ever read this). Consider this, Vern: Many former Way Corps besides me have realized from personal experience that there is no "accuracy of The Word" that exists for anyone to "return to." In light of that, I ask: What is the purpose of The Way? This is just my opinion, but since The Way's "bedrock of biblical research" has been found to be full of holes, plagiarism, and Scriptural abuse, doesn't that sinking ship make the organization of The Way without a purpose? If I were Vern, as far as the organization goes, I'd disband it.

Or, for something completely different along these lines, there's a very compelling argument for doing away with bible study altogether in a "shocking" book called The End of Biblical Studies (gasp!) by Hector Avalos, PhD. Prometheus Books. 2007. Just sayin … there is an alternative viewpoint for those interested in questioning the value of continuing to hammer away at biblical texts in hopes of recreating "the original." Even if we did reach that goal, what would we have? A text that still contains contradictions (four different viewpoints in the 4 gospels), violence against "unbelievers," in the Hebrew Bible, condemnation of homosexuals, subjugation of women, etc. Just sayin … let's take a look at bibliolatry and get honest about that. Perhaps this is a topic for the Doctrinal thread. Sigh …

You know why I come here? To be judged by people who don't know who we are, why we're here, what motivates us. I love being called bitter by a total stranger making a blanket statement in a drive by post. Welcome to Greasespot, Your Honor.

Back when lcm drove off 80% of twi in 88-89 with his "line in the sand", a fellow with the screen-name of Cesar Salad said he thought the biggest problem with lcm was that he wasn't able to get humble enough to "wash the apostles' feet" and so he wasn't fit for ministry work, since it was for HIS OWN glory and not for Jesus. It's no different for any other alleged "leader" that vpw trained, or vpw's machine trained. They all want to be the top dog- so all of them are UNWORTHY to be ministers. All of them want to be SERVED and not to SERVE.

Hi Leah..........welcome to the Café. For those of you who grew up at hq and had parents in leadership positions, I can only imagine the hardships, scrutiny, challenges and fear that were embedded into your psyche at such a young age. As you distinguished astutely in an earlier post.....it sounds like you are well on your way to separating your "cult self" from your "authentic self." And further, you have now established proper boundary lines with your family and loved ones by openly and publically stating what is acceptable, and not acceptable, to you. Good for you! Keep claiming what is rightfully YOURS.......an "authentic self." Individual sovereignty........to think, explore, believe, live, challenge, and commit to the passions that burn within your soul. My wife and I exited twi nearly 21 years ago after, what I would term, six turbulent years as leadership in Oklahoma. Suffice it to say that I spent time with your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, and some of your first cousins. Look how their lives have changed in the past 20-something years! Commitments changed. Perspectives altered. None of what they were, or weren't, committed to should hold sway to YOUR goals, passions or self-esteem. You have every right and reason to pursue this journey of self-exploration. And, from the sounds of things.....you've read some good books and, for years, have read threads here at GSC. Good for you. Go at the pace that fits your schedule. Most all of us have a past of *burdens, hurts and fears* that we are working thru or have overcome........hell, I went thru 10-days of deprogramming to fight my way back to my fiancé and then, dealt with years of being estranged from my parents/family. So, yeah......I can relate to the challenges one faces of self-authenticity and autonomy. Live on the sunrise side of the mountain......and greet the days that are before you. You are a brave woman and I commend you for it.

Welcome, Leah. About time!! You will get a lot of support here.

I really despise these euphemisms, but charlatans and criminals wouldn’t leave the house without them. The media seems to have normalized this linguistic apologetic by referring to rape as sexual assault, which is easier on the conscience, I guess. Hearing or reading about rape is supposed to make people uncomfortable. Euphemisms are anesthetic.

It does seem evident that the sinner's REPENTANCE is a necessary part of the equation. We forgive IF HE REPENTS. If he continues in sin and demands forgiveness regardless, that's nothing at all like we are instructed to do, and we don't have to do it. We are, however, to be wary around anyone who would demand it, or even ask it, for that matter. Now, for those who would SINCERELY wonder about someone trespassing AND REPENTING all day (7 times), I would point out that HYPERBOLE is a legitimate figure of speech people use all the time in English, and others understand them all the time. It's possible to misunderstand hyperbole- as it's possible to misunderstand ALL communications- but it's a lot more common if someone's TRYING to misunderstand it. [/b] [/b] Example of misunderstanding clear communication: William Shatner: " I’ve spoken to many of you, and some of you have traveled… y’know… hundreds of miles to be here, I’d just like to say… GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it’s just a TV show! I mean, look at you, look at the way you’re dressed! You’ve turned an enjoyable little job, that I did as a lark for a few years, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME! It's just a TV show!" Fan: "Are you saying we should pay more attention to the movies?"

Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective. The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves. They did not send out the postcard to the entire list. Most notably they don’t like people who post on this site and will never invite them back. On this site we don’t blame their victims but help them recover. We don’t excuse their immorality we call them out on it. We have done no evil here. Why can’t they forgive us for telling the truth about them? Why aren’t people hounding them to forgive everyone who left for understandable reasons? They use worldly designated “statuses” on their records to help them not forgive. And most of those mark and avoids like the RNR group were people trying to help them right the ship. I think some people should take their forgiveness guilt trip and shove it right back down the throat of the people demanding it of them but not doing it themselves. That’s what I do.

The sound of irony is deafening.

I dont see jeering and chatter I saw you completely shut down because you were confronted with uncomfortable truths that you are smart enough to recognize but deluded enough to rationalize them away. Then of course you turn to insults when you do snap out of it, and a very arrogant condescending tone and choice of words. The adversary is everywhere huh....

The Corps is a necessary cult element providing free labor at the expense of volunteers lives. Any imagery like the Marines promotes extremist behavior. No other Christian seminary or school uses this type of imagery, only Wierwille. So extremist behavior dedicated to him is what he wanted in that program. Calling it Wierwilles folly is laughable as all of Wierwilles works were folly. What did he say? If we lose WOW and the Corps we lose the ministry. Just like the free volunteers in Jehovahs Witnesses, like the cheap labor in Scientology’s Sea Org, or all the missionaries in the Mormon church, using others at their expense for your benefit is what Wierwille excelled at. He didn’t even need excellor sessions in trading in peoples flesh and using them he was a natural. Zealots for the cause is what that term is intended to produce. And OMG does the Way have more than its share of self centered abusers, mostly Corps and clergy and officers and directors.

Looking back through the years of twi-involvement, I now see how this cult organization set their snares to entrap me. It is NO SECRET that cults target the youth and twi is no different. Through years of failure, wierwille learned that he was unable to get "church people" [especially church pastors] to join his ministry after taking the pfal class. Even teaching this class live to an audience.... wierwille failed to engage most pfal-attendees in the 1960's toward twi-servitude. Little by little, things began to change with "family camps" and the filming of the 1967 pfal class. Soon thereafter, young "firebrands" emerged to take the reins of outreach. Whether it was the hippie-types playing guitar in the park, like Donnie Fugit.... or the guys in a Way Home at ECU, youth were reaching other youth. Whatever the encounter, you were about to run the gauntlet as they set their I's on you. Introduction -- the entry point of your encounter Involvement -- the beginning baby-steps of attending twig, coffee house setting, or pfal class Isolation -- within weeks, you are subtly being isolated from friends, family, information, past activities Intimidation -- slowly, but surely, your authentic self is being re-formatted to a cult follower Immersion -- introduction of new classes, programs to reinstitute a new trajectory of your life Indoctrination -- most notably found in their programs, Fellow Laborers and Way Corps Training Idolization -- can be found at all levels, but mostly among adv class grads and corps grads Most generally, the first two steps are found at the "twig level." In the early 70's, many of these twig coordinators had a special care and oversight of those in their fellowship. Broadly speaking, it seemed to me like there were hundreds of true shepherds guarding their flocks by night. Dozens upon dozens of GSC-posts give testimony to those early days of twigs and twi-involvement. Depending on how long you stayed in this arrangement, you might have been left with the impression shared by many....Short stay, good memories. For those who were second generation and grew up in this cult environment, this scenario would be significantly altered. Isolation...incrementally, began at the twig level, but there was still plenty of time and freedom to "live and move about to your heart's desire." But it was the programs like Fellow Laborers and, specifically, the Way Corps Program where Isolation increased a hundredfold. What was presented as "a college where the Word of God is taught," was pure bait-and-switch. The overall tactic was nothing short of Manipulation of One's Consent. What we had agreed to was twisted to mean that we were consenting to "a lifetime of twi-servitude." Intimidation tactics began in earnest to quell any of the rabble-rousers. The hierarchy of leaders over leaders created an atmosphere of always needing some leader's permission to do the simplest of tasks. During work assignments, one might need to go to the shop coordinator to check out a screwdriver for fixing shelves, chairs or whatever. Yeah, sign your name on a checkout list to be allowed a screwdriver!?! God have mercy if you didn't return the item and resign your name in the appropriate box. Bullsh!t intimidation. The in-residence classes were straight-up cult Immersion. All classes were taught by in-house "Faculty".... ie, corps peers. Yeah, "in-house".... meaning that the echo chamber was growing louder as "the blind were leading the blind." In my case, we were being taught generally by the 5th, 6th, and 7th way corps. Much of the earlier corps 1-4 were busy with departments, limbs and regions to run. We didn't have any selection of classes or curriculum. Everything was block format. We were simply stationed at a specific campus and instructed to run ..... The Gauntlet of Classes and Indoctrination. With elder corps on both sides, I hoped to make it to "graduation day"... whatever that meant. LOL By the second year in-residence, we were heavily into more Indoctrination. Privy to more meetings and encounters with twi-hierarchy, one could see the machinations involved to keep the railroad running. Some experts tell us that a young man's mind is not fully developed until the age of 25..... and, in my case, I think that's a fitting description. I saw these red flags, but still wasn't fully cognizant of the destructive and evil nature of the beast. I wasn't aware that wierwille, martindale and others were abusing young corps girls in the motor coaches, cabin 12 at Gunnison and on-campus apartments. The indoctrination took all the full spectrum of cult tactics.... physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual abuse. Years ago, a poster named Catcup started a thread entitled.... The Nine Dots of Nonsense. Her opening post summarized very well how the corps program became a box of indoctrination. Is it any wonder that scores of followers reached the point of Idolization of wierwille and his doctrine? Entombed in a world of isolation for decades from the outside world can do that to your mind. What you look at.... you become. Remember that? What you center your whole mind and soul on.... becomes the center of YOUR world. It's a known reality in the psychological realm. All those hyperbolic declarations of "wierwille's greatness" .... all those night owls where we sat cross-legged at those campfires listening to wierwille's bloviating .... all the "bridge-builder" poem reading wherein wierwille equated himself as some great bridge builder who took time to stop and help others to new horizons .... those mind-numbing readings of "A Day with the Wierwilles" ... the life-size bronze statue of wierwille in the auditorium .... and the need to stand with the wierwille family in order that the word will continue to live......SHEEESH. Could I please have back at least three years of my life from such nonsense? The eyes of a cult, any cult, are always looking for new recruits. If there is a new generation of youth rising up at twi, I can only pray that they will be prodded awake by the hundreds of thought-provoking threads here at GSC. .

I copied the emotion graph and wanted to comment on how it made me aware of the wide range of emotions we as humans are capable of. A little off topic but looking at it reminds me that we were taught not to feel them. I’m so glad I can claim my humanity and not feel condemnation that I am being earthly and leaning on sense knowledge when I feel what I feel.

Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ. The gift of holy spirit that we received from God through Christ was changed five times into "your spirit" placing the emphasis on the believer's ownership (as mentioned in #2 above). This negates the "interagency" you spoke of in #1. In John 17:21, Jesus says, "That they (those who believe in him) all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." We know this is only possible because of God's spirit being within the believer. With regard to #3, the command or exhortation that we "operate the gift" (which is likened to driving a car) is so impersonal but it was stated seven times, as was the number of times that the emphasis was placed on us and not God or Christ. The following phrases were used: when you act or as you speak out (2x), as you decide and believe to do so; as each believer wills or maturely deliberates; by our freewill decision; and it is up to us. The 7th phrase incorrectly states "God energizes (energeō) the power as we believe and decide to act." This was in reference to Eph 1:19 which says nothing about "as we believe" or "deciding to act." It does say, "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe," but according to verse 17, this believing is totally dependent upon God giving us wisdom and revelation so that we can know him better. How can we know God better, or let God work in us and Christ live in us when the focus is all on "me, me, me?" I'm still learning about these things but I know this short article is wrong, wrong, wrong at least 14 different times! Time to read OldSkool's post again about t he story of God and his people having always been, is right now, and will always be a love story.

It's also interesting to see what happened and what did NOT happen. We all know that vpw never went to his congregation and confessed his sins against them. That would have been required after having violated their trust for so many years on so many occasions. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that vpw SECRETLY repented- that he said NOTHING to the congregation whom he'd owed many explanations and apologies, to say the least, but that he SECRETLY tried to get right with God Almighty. If he'd done that SECRETLY, he would have changed his heart- and that means he would have changed his ACTIONS. If the heart changes, the actions proceeding from the heart change. If he'd repented SECRETLY, there would have been comments in public teachings about seeking forgiveness from God, on repenting of sins, on stopping wrong actions and replacing them with right actions, and there would have been lots of discussions with him on-grounds here and there about that sort of thing, about how God forgives us and how we should ALL seek God's forgiveness about sins we've committed, about how we should ALL repent and go to God SECRETLY. All of that would have been happening ALL THE TIME. There would be comments in ALL the sermons, and slipping out in most or all of the conversations. If he'd actually repented in his heart, that's what the changes would have been that would have happened in his actions. There was no public repenting, no public discussion of repentance- as if it was a subject much on his mind- no derailing of casual discussions. The notion of repentance hadn't occurred to him until the very end, the final hours - when he actually started obsessing about it. Otherwise, there would have been hundreds of people who heard him say this sort of thing, and there were zero. So, he did not repent in his heart and change his heart- since that would have meant his actions would have changed, and we could have observed THAT very easily. According to Mike, what was vpw talking about in his final months and weeks? Supposedly, his last public teaching was "the Joy of Serving"- which was a teaching-long advertisement for pfal. It said that the finest thing to do was to serve, and the finest service was to serve people pfal, so go do it, and how, outside twi, there were almost no answers for people. Running commercials for product is NOT the same as repenting. https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25213-power-for-abundant-living-today™/page/12/#comment-614631

What an incredibly spiritually immature suggestion. GSC is not a religion, like victor's contrived TWI. Here abuse is exposed to the shame of abusive perpetrators like victor and Loy. Conformity is not enforced here.

And in doing so, he was violating his own "To Whom it is Written" rule.

We stand for those we respect, either voluntarily or compulsorily, according to social norms. We stand for the judge AND the jury in a courtroom. Soldiers stand at attention for their commanders. Does everyone stand for the President? (I'm thinking of the press corps - do journalists stand at a press conference when the President enters?) Here in the Deep South, some of us stand for women whenever they stand, and sit after they sit. I suspect standing for an authoritative figure goes back to emperors and kings, who were usually military leaders. Standing for self-proclaimed religious leaders has its tradition in the Catholic Church - not 1st century, not Paul (as much as he would have loved the attention). If one has to whine about others standing for him, one doesn't deserve the gesture of respect. Whining about such a thing tips one's hand to one's illegitimacy.

Scripture, The Bible, is not *a* language. "It interprets itself", though.

Oh yeah – you nailed it Bolshevik! An alarming aspect of TWI-follower’s/big PFAL-fans’ fascination with demonology is the amount of control it affords cult-leaders. They elevate consequences for disobedience to the most frightening level. TWI-leadership used the fear of devil spirits, fear of getting possessed and fear of the power and influence exercised by those supposedly “born of the seed of the serpent” the way some parents use the boogeyman to frighten their kids into parental-approved behavior. To NOT follow TWI-guidelines or even worse to recklessly oppose TWI-leadership is to risk punishment from Satan’s minions. That’s something wierwille/Craig did to keep us trapped inside their theological box. We didn’t need to fear what the adversary could steal from us or do to us since wierwille/Craig already stole... or sabotaged our greatest asset – the ability to THINK and CHOOSE.

A. A complicated man with a complicated legacy. In many ways, the embodiment of my post-TWI determination not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. He truly believed, as many of us once did, that we were privileged with something extraordinary but imperfect, and he dedicated his life to improving it. Along the way he embraced and promoted some indefensible stuff, and he defended it with a stubborn passion that would be admirable in the service of a more worthy cause. When he met me, I felt broken. He did his best to heal my heart, to restore the sense of spiritual family I lost at a time of personal crisis. He refused to judge me or condemn me. I admire his dedication. As it gave way to stubbornness... let his legacy be a warning.

We didn't see eye to eye. I wish his family well. I did like his sense of humor. And he led the charge against the way. Opened the eyes of many.

So glad for all of the previous insights!!! Was thinking this a.m. that in '74 I took PFull-of- class at a family camp in NY, then Renewed mind class camp, and a week later took CF&S at an Ohio camp. (The Wow's in southern VA had not signed up anyone else but myself and a co-worker who I talked in to accompanying me to the P-fil camp that year.) Thus, I was hood-winked into plenty of error and idolizings, along with some good Bible, sure. But being clobbered over the head and fire-hosed with vpw's doctrinal slants, and being introduced to such nit-pickings as how many crosses or cock crows there were (2 Timothy 2:16- avoid pointless discussions)... This was soon followed with more grooming in CF&S and as I wrote in a personal journal- "SO, there i was hooked in... and two weeks later, i was being further groomed as one of the young women who would be privileged to be raped by your young bucks." Am still in therapy and several support groups for various life traumas, and I WILL heal from this!! (Just decided to join a local church which is sooooo much safer, respectful, doctrinally diverse, truly loving, etc etc etc. Onward! And thank you again GSC-ers for the support, insights, and Truth!!!

I like to think I wouldn't have gotten involved, either. Truth is, though, it was 50 years ago. I'm not the same person now that I was then. Don't beat yourself up over decisions you made so long ago.

vpw was determined to make a profit on everything twi- related. If it cost something, he'd try to get it free, or try to get it on the cheap if that was impossible. When he filmed the pfal class, he "bought" the desk for the set, then returned it for a refund, lying and claiming something was wrong to get a refund. Run a class? It's always at someone's home, so we pay no rent, and twi peons supply all refreshments out-of-pocket. All books were charged full retail despite having been printed and bound in-house, all audio tapes were made of a truly inferior quality, a level you couldn't buy in retail stores. Its mission program- wow- was run at a profit- the wow had to pay a fee to go out, and no funds were released to house them or otherwise run the program. Its leadership program- the corps- was run at a profit- with each student charged lots of money to participate, with other people chipping in the rest. In all other organizations, the group carries part or all of the expenses for such programs. On top of that, the corps WORKED. They were charged money, were housed in tiny "residences" and paid for the privilege of working for free. If there IS a God, vpw will have to account for all of that.

Been there and done that. It took me working at HQ and seeing the hypocrisy and everyday meanness for me to even consider looking online. And then a couple years after that before I realized God wasn't going to "life his protection" from my life if I did. The first time I read a thread from Greasespot was when I saw a print out of it on Rosalie's desk while I was cleaning. I wasn't prying, just dusting around things. But I do remember that moment very well. At that point I was already questioning the things I saw at HQ, and it struck me as odd that the woman in charge of the ministry was having someone print these things from a website that was so "devilish."

There is a small number of survivors still alive, and some have written books. Others have died in the last decade or two. There's talk of 6 million people of Jewish extraction. There are also millions more of other groups: gypsies, darker skinned people, homosexuals, disabled people - and intellectuals. Some estimate these others at about 4 million; they're often completely overlooked. Even now, the true numbers murdered by the regime are unknown. For this reason, I'm very alarmed when any bunch of people start demonizing any other group. It starts somewhere. Let's demonize ... hmm, Muslims. Yeah, they look different. Let's focus blame for all our problems on them, they're different. NO!!!!! Some are bad people and/or extremists. Most are not. Deal with the hate, inequality, privilege, issues. (I won't say any more, or this could become too political, and my intent is not that but to get people to examine their own prejudices.)

Lotza things kids, Having been around during that period of Lynn 's exit and having spoken with him twice the year he skated out, John Lynn's "quitting/getting fired" from the Way Ministry was kinda self serving. It benefitted him in several ways: - He crafted his own exit message around his personal involvement and culpability in the things that were "wrong" with the Way Inc. I mention that because when he and I spoke the first time about his leaving, he didn't want to talk at all about issues I brought up to him that I felt he had some accountability for. - He was able to personally attack all of the Trustees and anyone he wished without any chance of their rebuttal or responding. - He created and managed the environment in which he WOULD deal with anything he chose - He was able to start teaching what was to become a long string of half-assed-theories-of-the-week ideas unchallenged, while claiming he was walking in "Doctor's Footsteps" (which he told me over the phone). And when I told him he and I both knew ANY deviation from PFAL would have "The Doctor" shoving his foot up his ass he just chuckled and said "well, we'll all know someday" and continued to blab on. When I last spoke to him in - 1987? - I was still formally attached to the Way Inc. via my then-current Corps assignment but I was very aware that the Way Nash's leadership structure was in rack and ruin and I had no rose-colored expectations that it was going to get better. IMO however, Lynn did no great service to anyone in "revealing" the evils of the Way Trustees that he didn't get a lot in return for. It set the stage for all his future efforts and effectively made him an heir-apparent for all the ex-Wayfers who still needed a nipple to suck on and a warm crotch to lay their head on while being taught "the Bible" again and again and again and again. And again. Other than a phone call in the '90's when he was traveling around with a new book to sell and a coffee can to collect money in when he taught, I have had no contact from him at all. I wouldn't get involved in any of his enterprises, listen to him talk or buy anything he was selling. I'd love to engage in any number of normal real life activities, if the opportunity fell into my lap but other than that I do pray for his health and healing. Over the years I've heard and seen a few things here and there that he's done and - maybe it's just me - but he's turned into a terrible speaker and teacher, IMO. He's not really "funny", which everyone likes to say to get you to listen...."He's just as funny as he ever was".....and I'm not hard pressed to find yet another LOL jokester. I'm sure he's about as good as anyone would be who's been pounding the book for this many years but it's been years since I was dependent on the Teaching Teat of Ex Way Teat-chers. Seriously - there's a lot of sludge out there. As long as they mean well and do their best, I'm fine with it, just don't try to tell me it's next level stuff or particularly meaninful or anything like it. But my Gad-a-mitey, this is ancient history. Why do I persist, and to what ends? I guess it's a way to sort through the detritus and dust and pull out the odd dime or quarter lost in the cushions. God bless 'im but if the intent is to carry on with the message of Christ and salvation to the future generations it's time to give this bullshit a rest and focus on "GOD'S WORD" instead of whether or not one of us old and breaking down former wannabe-s can still punch our old weight. I would say this with no equivocation however and with all the state and stature it deserves - Lynn is the Undisputed King of The Church of JAL. All hail the King of JAL!!

Those who intentionally hide and dismiss wierwille's plagiarism, research foibles, and sexual predation AND have made it their business to lord over others.........THOSE SPLINTER GROUPS are worse! At the starting gate of splintering from twi, they are hypocrites before God and man.

Oh Leah, I am so happy you are here. You know I love you and am here whenever you want to talk! I had no idea that you were BecomingMe. Wow! You are cared about here in ways you'll never fully know!

Hi Leah! Don’t you dare quit! You ARE on the right path. It’s right because YOU are choosing it. YOU are determining who YOU are! That is the single most difficult task of human development, and at the same time, the most rewarding and fulfilling. That’s why I said, “don’t you dare quit”. You will make it to your authentic YOU if you just keep on going. Damn the hurt, the pain, the fear, the shame, the guilt, and the weariness. Just keep on keepin’ on! According to the 8 stages of human development, the 4th One is “identity formation”. Usually, according to the data, it occurs between the ages of 20-32. It follows adolescence, (12-19), and it is THE critical stage of human development. Observe the usual activities people in the age range 20-32 are engaged in these days in our frenetic culture.....college, trade school, the military, all crucial development tools which help one to self-determine her/his occupation, basic philosophy of life, and accepting who you have decided to be. For most of us here, those were the very years we got involved with TWIt. The TWIt cult stunted our development at the most critical stage. Dictor paul’s psychiatric dysfunctions and perversions, along with the Nazi-like authoritarianism and militarism of his corpse program produced what I term, a forced adolescence upon all wayfers, because the way took over determining our identities with it’s cult indoctrination and a rigid military-like discipline in order to “be the best” according to what the cult determined was “best”, period. But, the incredible cognitive dissonance we all experienced between what wierwille said and what wierwille DID became too much for us to bear, eventually driving our “authentic” selves back to the surface from under the smothering mind control and extreme peer pressure from the cult, and, avouding a psychological breakdown, we summoned enough personal courage to get the hell out of Dodge and retake control of our own, authentic lives....lives WE choose and people WE choose to be with. That’s where the anxiety and depression become an issue. There is so much cognitive dissonance that it usually requires professional help from a licensed counselor in order to sort it all out. It is, unfortunately, a necessity for most, because we have no sense of ourselves outside the complete dominance of the cult in every part of our minds and bodies. Our personal human development was detoured by a destructive religious cult, but by the strength of will and reason, WE now get to determine who and what we are according to OUR standards, beliefs, and desires. This takes time and a bunch of getting used to, but the end of adaptation is FREEDOM, liberty, and confidence that you can do it again as often as necessary. As you can see, I too can ramble! LOL. But more importantly, I want to strongly encourage you to keep on going! YOU ARE on the right path for YOU. We’ve all been at multiple crossroads in our lives, and we are here to help, to listen, to encourage, to inspire, and to hug whenever you need help along your journey to self-actualization. A cool glass of water and a cold, juicy peach on a hot day, passed on to a fellow traveller with love, unspoken understanding, and a joyful smile to help you hang in there baby!! That’s the GSC. As you said, by the grace of God, you have a full life! A loving partner, 2 lovely babies, a good career doing something YOU love because YOU love it and trained for it. YOU did all that! YOU! And YOU will conquer the current difficulties with the help of others also traveling the freedom road to self-identification and rewarding fulfillment......you’ll see REAL fruit of the spirit in your life and you will be happy and at peace. Don’t you dare quit! We love YOU because of who and what YOU are. You belong. You are free to be you. Just do it! We’ll help in any way we can. Peace.

Thanks Grace, I haven't been around here much for a long time, and had never seen that link from Penworks (Thx, Penworks, BTW), but on all the other pretty current. I was at the reading of POP at corps week in '86. Have read portions since. My gawd, that poor man, look at the burden on him and how he really serves and shields the MOGFOT and how he tries so hard, and no matter what he just keeps trying, and the hurt and pain of OUR beloved MOGFOT, oh, I wish I had been there.....sob sniff tears.....NOT. I also know two fellas, 8th and 10th, who flew to Gartmore with another Rev back then to get an OK to go around the overturned eighteen wheel "Yuk" twig, or get instructions on what to do. They wanted to see Geer. These three were doing the run around on their higher ups at HQ. Another mutiny inside a mutiny like the little Russian dolls. The one where DWBH was confronting all of 'em seems like. They were going to wrest back this "thing" away from them, or do whatever had to be done, and get it back on track. And, it would have been just as awful. Firstly, DWBH would have had to confront at least one of them, too. That was a sprout of the first offshoot...it died. Asked my old Bro' in person 3 years ago, "Why did you go?" "To find out how to save the minus-try." Said his plan had always been a "career" in the minus-try. He had climbed up to Limb Coor. by '85. "So, what did he tell you? Anything? Or, did he just sorta' look at you with that psychzoid I'm getting revelation don't mess with me kinda' look?" Hardly nothing, he says....a whole week! Hope they were Scotch drinkers! Hope it wasn't raining on your parade there in sunny Scotland! Honestly? It's really kinda' super hard to see miracles and have joy and love and those things without the Holy Spirit, who, best guess, had to grievingly depart from Twit, if it ever was really there much at all because of the corruption and sin. But, to me, most especially, the Holy Spirit had to leave because of the denial of Who Jesus really is...the Christ...the Logos in Person! Not a Book. Found in That Book...not the Book. Knows my name, every hair counted, loves me as the Good Shepherd that He is, Was, Always shall be. Mine. His. He's spoken of in the banned books section of the Twit archives: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That's where I met Him before the way. He's still there. And, it seems, from what I've read, it didn't take long after the first coups of Heefner and Doop (not quite my time yet) for the fabric to begin to fray. Anyway, Grace, thank you. Boy, I sailed away on that one.

1. "Sadly, I cannot get this man to accept the notion that the Bible really is the word of God." Ok, let's start there. The Bible never calls itself the Word of God. That's part of the problem right there. The Bible speaks of the Word of God quite often, but it never has the self-awareness to declare itself to be that Word. Maybe, just maybe, you can be wrong about the Bible being the Word of God and still be a good Christian. 2. "I think he would like it to be..." Well, no one asked you what you think, did they? Maybe he has no preference one way or another and is just waiting for you to make a plausible case for your thesis. 3. "... but is overly obstinate and has an awful attitude towards God and his plan for man's redemption." A lot to unpack there. Has it occurred to you that maybe YOU're the one being "obstinate" with an "attitude" that won't budge no matter how many facts he presents to counter your preconceived notion that the Bible is the Word of God? Like, maybe YOU're the stubborn one, not him? Because he shows you the Bible, and you start making excuses. Oh, that's the Old Testament. God's different now. He's really kind and gentle. He did what he did before because he HAD to to fulfill the plan of redemption. Problem: The plan of redemption is only the plan of redemption because God wanted it that way. It didn't have to be. He could just accept an apology without shrugging his shoulders and saying oh well because someone found a particular fruit of a particular tree to yummy to pass up (He also could have put that tree ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET but instead put it right in front of two people who did not know good and evil; then said don't eat from that tree. Not exactly a strong case for omniscience. It's like I put a cookie on the table in front of my 7-year-old and said "Don't eat that," then walked out of the room. He's gonna eat the cookie. I'm not all knowing, and I know that). So your friend, I submit, is not stubborn. Rather, he's amused at the contortions you'll twist yourself into to deny what's obviously written. There IS not idiom of permission in the Bible. Bullinger, for what he's worth, appears to be the only one who makes an issue of it. It's hardly a scholarly consensus. The existence of other figures of speech does not verify the "idiom of permission" as something the Bible employs on a regular basis. It is, however, an extraordinarily convenient tool for believers to employ whenever their holy book shows God doing what no good God would ever do, even though the book is unambiguous about it being God who did it. But that's just the old testament. Unless, of course, you're holding back tithes from the apostles in Acts, which is New Testament. (Oh, but it doesn't say God did that. It was Satan -- even though the Bible doesn't say THAT either). The Bible is filled with examples of God saying he'll do something and then saying He did it. It doesn't say he allowed it to happen or he allowed Satan to do it. It says HE did it. Now, it COULD have said he allowed Satan to do it, very easily. Look at Job. Satan did those things. It says so. Yeah, he got God's permission, but it says that, clearly. There's no ambiguity, and there's no "this is how it works normally." A figure of speech is supposed to be a statement that is true in essence though not literally true. "It's raining cats and dogs" is a figure of speech. "This car can stop on a dime" is a figure of speech. A figure of speech is not supposed to be a way for you to get the Bible to say the opposite of what it clearly says just because what it clearly says is inconvenient for your theology. God ordered the execution of a man for picking up sticks on the sabbath. He didn't give man permission to kill the offending sabbath breaker. He gave man an order -- cast those stones! God didn't allow divorce. He prescribed it. He didn't allow Satan to kill all the firstborn of Egypt. He had it done. And he DID have a choice. When my kid offends me, I have a choice how to discipline him. You have no idea how many times my discipline has stopped short of killing him because he did his chores between sunset on Friday night and Saturday night! So here's a thought. Bear with me: Maybe your friend isn't the stubborn one in this equation. Maybe he's not the one being inflexible. Maybe, just maybe, he's given this far more thought than you have.