Leaderboard

Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of the manipulation and exploitation from the cult. It is my belief that most will recognize the early warning signs of an abusive relationship, sound the alarm for others and stay away. Many of us were deeply entrenched in the programs and networking of this cult. Whether it was WOW, Fellow Laborers, or Way Corps.....we saw the underpinnings that were non-Christian or pseudo-Christian, at best. The higher up the hierarchy, the more Pharisaic the cult's colors show thru. And, when wierwille enters the spotlight of Scriptural scrutiny, the drunkenness, serial plagiarism, bullying, striker, sexual predation, misogynic undertones, etc.....put him in the category of a man of the flesh. While there are still some who idolize wierwille, and post on GSC......their drumbeating of "this great man" is falling on deaf ears. As adults, we've moved on to the weightier matters of Scriptural integrity....or pursuits in life, career and family that give fulfillment. We see thru twi's deceptive scam that is played on the youth. We stay true to our own personal convictions and a core of GSC-posters stay committed to warning others of this evil that lurks near the flock of God. God bless. Happy New Year 2023.

Hey, all. It’s been awhile since I’ve stepped into the diner. I’m outing myself today because it’s too painful to keep my silence anymore, and I’m struggling right now. My name is Leah - I’m LCM’s oldest child. I don’t know what to do next...I feel like I need to speak, but I don’t know what to say. I’m just so tired of hurting. Penworthy, it’s lovely to “see” you here. I so appreciate your compassion...

I left twi over 30 years ago and have not been comfortable in any church all that time. My mind kept judging their doctrine no matter how loving and accepting the people were. When I began to spend time on GSC, beginning with the Absent Christ thread, I began to see how much of twi's doctrine on the holy spirit field, the law of believing and the "word takes the place of the absent Christ" was inaccurate and had crippled my walk with Christ. It's only been four months and now I've started to fellowship with Christians in a church where I feel at home. A lot of what I'm seeing there lines up with what I've learned on GSC. The important point to realize is that for me, I needed to begin having fellowship with Christ before I could fellowship with others who belong in his body outside of twi. What helped me to connect with my Lord was posting on GSC so the believers there could show from scripture how it is God's will that we have fellowship with Christ. Once I understood that and I could open the door to receiving him, he went from being someone I knew about in my head to being someone alive in my life. I still read and send posts on GSC so I can continue learning and maybe help others as I've been helped.

My official involvement in TWI was brief. My emotional involvement is another story. I was introduced to The Way in late December 1986. It took a lot of persuading, but I finally sat through the class nearly two years later. By then I had sat through dozens of hours of teaching tapes and Way music was part of my regular diet. I even taught a couple of times: Before I took the class! I was not abused in or by The Way. No one hurt me. No one stole my girlfriend or wife. I parted with my money voluntarily. i left because I was loyal to those who were fired en masse in the spring of 1989. Leaving The Way did not affect my worship life one whit. I was of the belief that we who were cast aside were the ones who were truly most loyal to the Word as taught to us by Dr. Wierwille. In the decade that followed, I got married and became a fellowship coordinator at our offshoot in the Bronx. I got divorced and had a crisis of conscience. I tried hard to stay true to Biblical principles no matter who taught them, and to reject non-Biblical principles (again, no matter who taught them). I ceased being loyal to any particular group, defending and challenging various offshoots at various times. I also began attending mainstream churches after I moved to Florida. After my divorce, I discovered this online community of former Way believers. In my naiveté, I guess I must have come off as quite arrogant and inflexible. Honestly, I was not emotionally prepared for the realization that people had such a wide variety of experiences. I think I grew with this site, both in my understanding and in my flexibility, at least when it comes to doctrine. Today I am not a Way believer. I am not a believer in any supernatural religion. I am a humanist: I believe it is incumbent on man to identify and seek to solve the problems we create, so that our progeny can live in a future worth living for. I can work with anyone who has the same belief, whether that belief is driven by an underlying belief similar to mine or by the belief that a Higher Power demands it of us. So be it. I am writing this (and opening this thread) because I wanted to articulate a simple truth: The "members" of this web community are not an ideological monolith. The only thing we have in common appears to be that we sat through some version of a class that The Way called "foundational." Some of us experienced more. Some of us, far less. We are not all here because we were hurt, though some of us were. We are not all here because we are bitter, though some of us are. We are not all here because we hate God or the Word. Some of us love both with all our hearts. Others would no sooner hate God than Godzilla, for all their ability to demonstrate their existence. We are in various states of personal recovery. Honestly, I'm here out of habit. I've been done with this stuff for years. But now and then I am called upon to explain some of the things I wrote when I was young, idealistic, and enthusiastic about my faith. What about the Blue Book review and Actual Errors? The Blue Book Review (look it up) is a sincere effort by a sincere Christian to weed out truth from error in the works of VPW. Actual Errors, while limited in scope and purpose, was apparently QUITE influential despite itself. It was, at its heart, a defense of the class and the collaterals: A defense against an effort to exalt them above the Word we purported to believe. It was never intended to be an attack on PFAL. It was intended to be a recognition of the obvious: That PFAL was not perfect. That discussion died out years and years ago. But not and then it comes back up, and my name is attached to it. So now and then I remind people what it was all about. From the horse's mouth, as it were. Anyway, back to this thread: There is no single "why I left the way" experience. There is no single "why I'm still out" experience. We are individuals. We are here to give a reason for where we are today. Just ask us.

DWBH, what can I say? Thank you SO much for the love and your comments. I can’t quite find the words to tell you all how much I appreciate being welcome here. To answer a couple comments - I have 4 therapists and am on a battery of meds. I’ve been doing this latest round of hard work with said therapists for a year and a half. I think what has discouraged me is how deep the injuries go into my subconscious mind. But I am and will continue working. Being ME here is a big step I’ve wanted to take for years. Thanks again for the comfort <3

Insanity is often quoted as......"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ..........but with cult-splinter insanity, I find myself wondering if they are doing the same thing over and over again desiring the SAME results. With nearly 20 years of internet exposure..... Waydale and Greasespot Café.......surely IF these corps leaders had an ounce of integrity and empathy for others, they'd see the errors of their ways, no? What do ALL of the cult offshoots have in common? A self-appointed leader claims to have "the Word" and teach "it" to others. He offers up dissention and disagreements with martindale or rivenbark........and gives wierwille adulation. Without objective reflection and further seminary training or study, he tweaks the wierwille-teachings only slightly. Same pyramid structure is implemented..........same centralization, same lording over others, same rules on giving money. Now that you've met the *new boss, same as the old boss*..........how can you possibly expect DIFFERENT RESULTS? After exiting The Way International Cult.........how many got entrapped into another splinter group for another decade or more? Insanity right? And, within these various splinters......how many more twisted perversions were promoted and propagated by the spiritual elite (cough, cough) among us? The Geer group plunged into the posthumous indoctrinations of geer's idol, wierwille. CES/STFI grafted in new age, self-help quackery like Momentus and personal prophesies and nose spiders. Egads! And, CFF took you back to the nostalgia "good old days of twi" when that young blood was coursing thru your veins. Oh, the memories....... Here a splinter, there a splinter.............everywhere there is ANOTHER splinter. Whether the R&R group will get rooted is still questionable.......but Rico's upstart - Oikeos is another baby cult that is flailing its arms and legs. Nourished on the milk of "Wierwille's Word" this infant will grow up in the image of wierwille...........same result, same outcome as its mother-cult. IMO.........these splinters have NOTHING to do with serving and ministering to others, but rather are SELF-SERVING OVERLORDS. These corps cleave to the cult model, because they have no real-life job experience in the real world. At best, they would be hard to find middle management jobs, sales jobs or seek self-employment. There are near-zero employers out there who are willing to hire a 56-66 year old man who has been fossilized into an obscure "Christian" group for 35 or 40 years. Two years ago, I documented a timeline of my experiences during the Martindale Era.....Insanity on Steroids.......and it was crazy then. But now, seeing these corps who stayed ANOTHER 17 YEARS of Rivenbark's Reign of Error.........and now, wanting to claim the mantle of *Leadership* is laugh-out-loud appalling. What a bunch of weasels. Until they clean and sanctify themselves from all of wierwille cult, top to bottom, thoroughly and throughly............they are a blight on the body of Christ. They disappoint and diminish and destroy by seeking opportunities for filthy lucre's sake. Beware of their pernicious ways as they twist and pervert words to indulge and profit in this seduction. They seek those who've had their minds grooved with cult indoctrination and servitude, rather than do the hard work of reaching others. Beware of cults. Beware of groupthink. "In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. " Friedrich Nietzsche

Hey everyone, I’ve been looking at this site for years and decided to join. I was raised in The Way and just left in 2017, with my husband who was also raised in The Way. We left after seeing the deep corruption and evil within the organization, and after becoming Christians within 24 hours of each other. We have found true freedom and healing over the past 2 years in getting to know Jesus as our God, and though our families have rejected us, have found an amazing family within our church community. Both my husband and I desire to help those who are struggling with leaving The Way, and who are struggling with doing the brain surgery required to unravel all of the lies. We have been able to maintain our faith through this process, and actually understand what “freedom in Christ” means. Personally, I am still working through a variety of issues resulting from my upbringing (both from TWI and a rough parent situation). Counseling and inner healing ministry have been incredibly helpful, and I am hopeful that with time, I will be completely free. Our prayer is to see The Way die completely, and we pray for healing to those who have left but still hold onto the harmful beliefs that the cult teaches its followers. So many people leave TWI but are never truly free from it. My husband and I are available if anyone has questions, or if you are hurting and need a friend who understands what you’re going through.

For years I'd told myself, "Someday I will talk about what happened while I was a member of The Way International. I will tell how Limb Coordinator Christoph Stoop threatened my life when the US Army JAG and CID offices were investigating an incident that occurred involving us and others at my secure Army microwave transmitter station during my assignment in Europe. Those events eventually ended with me being (oddly) medically discharged a full 18 months early, after being hospitalized three separate times for suicidal ideation. Furthermore, as the guilt and fear consumed me post-discharge, and after several suicide attempts, I found myself in a VA psych ward, which was the beginning of my recovery with the help of the VA. It was a cathartic experience. I became stronger during that lengthy and intensive treatment process. It was excruciatingly slow and painful – but in the end, I am more whole today than ever before thanks to the caring professionals at the VA. During that time, I was evaluated for multiple service-connected disabilities, including PTSD related to the experiences centered on TWI. I was rated permanently disabled and awarded 100% compensation. I’ve never felt money fixes anything but it has opened doors for educational opportunities and housing possibilities I would not have realized beforehand." Thanks for listening.

twi is still run by old fogeys who seized power so they could have the money and the power, and won't let go. They're trying to figure out how to interest young people, since without young people, twi's fading into obscurity. It's an old people ministry that hasn't appealed to young folks since the 1980s, and that means, as their population ages out and some drop dead of old age and others leave, they don't have any replacements to pay 10% or more of their income because they are suckers to keep the luxuries coming in for the people at the top. So, twi now has a handful of old farts in power trying to convince young people that twi is actually relevant and meaningful. How are they doing that? They're reviving what worked in the 1970s with the baby boomers, in their own foolish youth. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.

I feel that, thanks Waysider. I have more to share but it took 25 years to tell my story. I'm still basking in the relief of letting the first chapter out. It's been a marathon of a life. Thanks for seeing me.

Happy New Year spotters! I am bumping this thread for all those who may still be stuck in TWI nostalgia bias. Perhaps you like me have seen a recent depiction of the “Jesus Revolution” with all of the social happenings in the 60s and 70s that preceded the Way Ministry and other groups like Calvary Chapel and all of the tales about the groovy Christians of Rye NY or the Life magazine articles or the House of Acts in SF California. Seeing all of that I was reminded of the motivation I had in my youth to seek out grassroots truth in the form of spiritual wisdom from the Bible and Christian fellowship. As I pursued that as a primary goal in life, got married, had kids, and worked out how to live as a Christian man father and husband I ran into direct conflict with the cult I was in, The Way International, and what the Bible taught about Christian life, marriage, family, careers, debt, and many other major categories of life where they were stepping beyond scriptural boundaries and into areas of life in the nunya category. Nunya d@mn bidness. I also witnessed several leadership couples where the Way broke up their marriage, convinced them they had major spiritual problems and forced them back into their training program again. And I witnessed the Way performing libelous acts talking about these people to their congregations and acting well beyond any authority reasonable for a church group. I witnessed any attempt to restore equal balance met by excommunication. So the times I could be swayed by nostalgia and the idea of a large church with many friends (they were fake) I recollect the doctrinal and practical manipulation of these people and others who have published their accounts, and I thank God on my knees that I am no longer subservient to little Napoleons and their Machiavellian imaginations and their evil acts against those in their own house. I thank God for freedom, like the freedom that the concept of the United States of America can bring when people aren’t being political moral midgets, like the freedom that emancipation can bring and has brought to minorities, like the freedom to worship God without any sense of lack of worth that another man or woman tries to introduce. There is a time for nostalgia. I can break out an old vinyl album I replaced and go back to my roots, to a simpler time filled with faith without manipulation, to a time of infinite possibility. But I have zero nostalgia of being under the authority of moral midgets and performing rote roles of service to magnify others and their egos. I will not sacrifice my future and family’s future to run a church for a group too cheap to build one in my house and try and hype a new lie which is the same old lie. God did not speak to Victor Paul Wierwille and give him divine instruction for all mankind that he would teach “the Word” like it hasn’t been known since the first century. That is a lie from a book they no longer claim and a lie that is not in the man’s biography written by his spouse. Freedom > Nostalgia

This sort of thing is what happened to me. One day, in FellowLaborers, I found myself all alone in the house for some reason. I happened to look in a full length mirror and, just like that, like a bolt of lightning, a feeling of self-awareness came over me as I found myself asking, "How the hell did I get here?". Now, I don't mean I couldn't remember arriving or the trip there. I mean I suddenly wondered how my life could have evolved so drastically without me noticing. I realized I wasn't the same person I had been before I got involved with The Way. Not just a little different, but like a completely different person. My bridges to return were gone, vanished. It's not a good feeling. I started to silently question everything that was happening. If only I had paid closer attention to what was unfolding, life might have been very different. Would it have been better? Would it have been worse? Who's to say. But, for sure, it would have been much different.

As wierwille's twi grew in the 1970's, it made a quantum leap from the 5th corps to the 6th corps. From the numbers I remember, the 5th corps had 75 graduates.... whereas, the 6th corps started in Emporia with near 340 corps. It was a massive leap in numbers and could not be trained at headquarters, so the trustees searched for a location and took out a second mortgage/loan to acquire the Emporia campus. Along with this risk.... twi was ill-equipped to handle the free-rolling, rowdy individuals that were part of this 6th corps influx. Thus, heavy-handed measures came into play. One of my big contentions with corps training was that it was obsessed with obedience. Far too much emphasis was placed on following leadership..... rather than diligence or spiritual vigilance. Why the excessive need for obedience? Control. Corps coordinators made it a dominant priority to rein corps into a herd-mentality. In other words, twi FEARED individual thought (and questioning authority). It is far easier to rule by fear than to rule with love. At one point, they shut the corps program down with an ultimatum..... OBEY or LEAVE. Why couldn't they gather the body of corps together for an open dialogue? Why, even today, does twi give GSC the *silent treatment* after 20+ years? For the same reasons that wierwille highlighted certain verses of scripture in pfal and ignored others. He was working towards a manufactured outcome. Remember his little "story" in pfal when wierwille talks about "The sower and the seed?" And, now Maggie, wierwille asks, "What do you think the good seed represents?" And, Snowball Pete, "What do you think this good seed is?" Wierwille's point.....STOP THINKING about what you think it means and keep reading. Yet, time and again, wierwille injects his thinking into other verses as the class unfolds. It wasn't only the things twi highlighted thru the years that were relevant, but what things THEY DISMISSED and MEMORY-HOLED that spoke volumes. We came to pfal or corps training as individuals..... but graduated as a part of wierwille's "crack troops" or corps grads. Where in the scriptures does Jesus specifically call the men who followed him as "my disciples" in the possessive term? Yet, wierwille brands his corps as cattle.... "my corps." The corps letters were littered with this group-inclusive terminology. The Way International fear us. Why do they fear us? They fear we will have our own thoughts and speak up for ourselves. They fear we will become independent of their branding and no longer be subjugated to their will. They fear we will question their authority over us and relegated to the dustbin of history. They fear we will stand up for ourselves and start banding together. They fear we will become stronger and their influence will become weaker. They fear we will use our power against them as they fall further into irrelevance. They fear that we will awaken others to the deception that they perpetuate. They fear our free-thinking and tossing aside the burdens of fear and guilt. They fear that we are no longer captive to their authority. They fear we are independent. Philosopher Bertrand Russell quote (after devastation of WWI): Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth — more than ruin, more even than death. Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habits; thought is anarchic and lawless, indifferent to authority, careless of the well-tried wisdom of the ages. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid…Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man.

The more I consider these myriad of tactics, the more examples come to mind. Understandably, the more one is isolated and immersed in this realm of control.... the higher the levels of abuse. That's why the corps program was the ultimate stronghold wierwille utilized to attain his narcissistic power and control over others. Everything about the corps program gave wierwille and corps coordinators access to twist and mold young minds. When you signed on the line to "be corps"... you entered the door of bait-and-switch. Generic terminology of the corps commitment was an accelerated *mission creep* bonanza. Young, committed minds surrounded by cunning leaders and peers was pressurized. Those who fell short were publically castigated for all to witness. The cult held absolute control over the daily schedule and could change it at any time. Keeping corps off-balance stripped individuals from any control over their daily lives or future. Edgy and dangerous exercises.... colon cleanse, hitch-hiking at dark, safety at work projects. Death came early for some....even then, wierwille did not adjust or change course. Some young corps girls were selected for wierwille's sexual delight and predatory nature. Resistance to wierwille's "advances" was enough to give her the bum's rush off twi-property. Corps were disposable. Dreams of "serving God" were dashed by one act of disobedience. Isolation, immersion, idolization breeds a world of absolute control over others. Twisted teachings like "the lock box" and "salt covenants" were weapons of control. Corps were used as slave-labor at Camp Gunnison and Tinney, New Mexico (and roa). L.E.A.D. replaced T.F.I. in California. Wierwille stripped John Svmmerville of his authority. Purging those who challenged vpw was evident throughout twi's history. Wierwille did NOT lead by example.... he flaunted his position to smoke and drink at will. By 1977, 1978.... dozens of elder corps were moving towards the exit doors. What's a cult leader to do? Change? LOL. Nope, move younger guys into those vacated positions. Damage control, damage control. Twi was a one-trick pony. Decades of carnival tactics for 8 years (1973-1981) of power and control. Even when transitioning to lcm and stepping down (1981).....wierwille detested giving away power. Wierwille wanted his son, Don, to lead the ministry.... but Don's teaching prowess was lame. So, martindale was chosen because he ALWAYS obeyed wierwille. Nothing about being God's servant. Twi was built on a man of the flesh and remains ungodly to this day.

I do want to address this Mike. You constantly come at me like I have forgotten, or have been talked out of the truth of wierwille, or that I just don't understand where you are coming from. Personally, I have never had a better relationship with God and Jesus Christ - just like it says in the Bible. I spend my time reading scripture and tracking topics through Church history and other avenues. I don't waste my time reading wierwille -- been there done that. I have very dillegently, and judiciously considered and reconsidered most everything I learned from TWI over the past 14 years since I left. Most of wierwille's doctrines are not supported in actual scripture. I don't mean pretending you are a biblical researcher because you know how to use lexicons and concordances where you get to cherrypick your own brand of Christianity...like saying cloak = book case. Anywho - Let me say this again and say it clearly - wierwille was a false prophet who abused the flock he was entrusted with. - wierwille was a thief and liar and also a drunk who liked to take advantage of the Lord's heritage - his people! - his legacy is riddled with lies and occultic based principles such as the law of believing. It is plainly noted that he studied people like Albert Cliffe - a known spiritist. - wierwille wanted people to only read his books because if you branch off too far you will find the sources he stole from and you will also find out the truth on a lot of topics he preached...that truth? He preached a lot of LIES. - The way international is a preservation society dedicated to elevating wierwille up there next to Jesus Christ, the true preeminent one, because they have NOTHING else. No new charismatic cult leaders, no new anything, only the half baked legacy of their drunk a$$ father in the word. Before you talk about me dragging up his sins and compare that locust to King David, et. al. let me say this. I AM a RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC who will openly talk about my past and my sins and they are sordid and many. You know why? Because I have repented and been forgiven and perhaps my story can serve to help others who are caught in the same snares. Wierwille HID his sins and I will do all I can to expose them and the corrupt organization he left behind. It's not out of hate for anything...it's out of a sense of duty to come out from among them and be ye seperate. I will not be associated with anything TWI because the organization is corrupt to the core and a lot of that corruption stems from doctrine, doctrine that is above question and considered proven ministry research by the way international. I will not slink off quietly in the night and not expose what I came here to expose. I will not give a tacit agreement with their practices by supporting them with silence.

VPW's statement that the Bible interprets itself is nonsense. The act of interpretation of any text is done by the reader of the text. People interpret what they read. They are the ones who give it meaning. Surely we can see that this is a basic reason for many different denominations. They have different interpretations of Scripture. People interpret books and make decisions about what the books mean based on lots of factors, such as the times in which the book was written. We're talking about reading literature here. I'll say the obvious: Bibles are collections of pieces of literature. BTW, some Bibles have different pieces of literature in them compared with other Bibles. People who understand what literature is and who were not brainwashed by Wierwille, realize that books don't "interpret themselves." People interpret books. But because many of us who were vulnerable PFAL students and considered VPW as some great Biblical scholar, when he said that nonsense, many of us believed it. BTW, he's not the only Bible teacher who passes along that thoughtless statement. In Undertow I show my experience in realizing that books don't interpret themselves, people interpret books. I highlighted that point mainly for readers who were indoctrinated in The Way. Readers who never bought into Wierwille's propaganda know that already.

Some of you know that in 1987, I escaped the fundamentalism and cult control of The Way International when I drove away from TWI headquarters in New Knoxville, Ohio, and never went back. I don't intend to return there in person. However, by checking in here at GSC every once in a while, I end up revisiting, by way of people's memories and documented facts, some of the terrible problems that issued from cultic beliefs and behaviors of Way leaders and some followers. I also rejoice in much healing. Your stories are important and I thank you for them. Today, I watched the televised coverage of Cassidy Hutchinson give her testimony of what happened behind-the-scenes in the White House leading up to, during, and shortly after the insurrection at the nation's Captial on Jan. 6, 2021. What struck me was how powerful a calm, fact-based, and as-best-as-I-remember personal testimony can be. Likewise, personal testimony here at GSC by former followers who tell the truth about what happened to them while associated with The Way can and HAS helped people understand the dangers of cultic manipulation. And I KNOW it has helped steer some people away from The Way. Some of them write to me. Some of them, particularly some from my daughter's generation whose parents are still in denial about the abuses of VPW, etc., reach out to me after reading Undertow. Thank you, Greasespotters, for your support of Undertow over the years. I urge all of us to continue telling our stories in a manner that invites thoughtful consideration. It's up to us to inform and to heal former Way followers when we can. Let's lay off any distracting nonsense (that shows up in some threads here) and remember: every word matters.

Hello! I was in Ohio for most of my life, raised by my two parents who joined the way in the 70's. I was a somewhat enthusiastic "believer" until my early 20s and then I dove in - went Way Disciple after I graduated college then moved in with ministers in Syracuse, New York. I left everything behind and I was so worried that I wouldn't be okay without "God's protection." But I have to say, my life is improving. I have a master's degree, a great job, a great car, and will soon co-own a home. None of that would have been possible if I was still giving away 10%+ of my income and afraid of debt. I feel like I have a brighter future than the Way Royalty (as we jokingly called them in college) who were booted recently. I have transferrable skills, I can talk like a normal person in society, and I no longer have to hide "my" religious views from others. Imagine that.

As a grad of the 2nd Way Corps, I thought I'd pipe up and say a few words. It's no secret that I've rejected associating with The Way and have left its teachings in my rearview mirror. Nevertheless here's my opinion about what Vern should consider doing as the new Way president (although I'm not convinced he'll ever read this). Consider this, Vern: Many former Way Corps besides me have realized from personal experience that there is no "accuracy of The Word" that exists for anyone to "return to." In light of that, I ask: What is the purpose of The Way? This is just my opinion, but since The Way's "bedrock of biblical research" has been found to be full of holes, plagiarism, and Scriptural abuse, doesn't that sinking ship make the organization of The Way without a purpose? If I were Vern, as far as the organization goes, I'd disband it.

Or, for something completely different along these lines, there's a very compelling argument for doing away with bible study altogether in a "shocking" book called The End of Biblical Studies (gasp!) by Hector Avalos, PhD. Prometheus Books. 2007. Just sayin … there is an alternative viewpoint for those interested in questioning the value of continuing to hammer away at biblical texts in hopes of recreating "the original." Even if we did reach that goal, what would we have? A text that still contains contradictions (four different viewpoints in the 4 gospels), violence against "unbelievers," in the Hebrew Bible, condemnation of homosexuals, subjugation of women, etc. Just sayin … let's take a look at bibliolatry and get honest about that. Perhaps this is a topic for the Doctrinal thread. Sigh …

You know why I come here? To be judged by people who don't know who we are, why we're here, what motivates us. I love being called bitter by a total stranger making a blanket statement in a drive by post. Welcome to Greasespot, Your Honor.

Back when lcm drove off 80% of twi in 88-89 with his "line in the sand", a fellow with the screen-name of Cesar Salad said he thought the biggest problem with lcm was that he wasn't able to get humble enough to "wash the apostles' feet" and so he wasn't fit for ministry work, since it was for HIS OWN glory and not for Jesus. It's no different for any other alleged "leader" that vpw trained, or vpw's machine trained. They all want to be the top dog- so all of them are UNWORTHY to be ministers. All of them want to be SERVED and not to SERVE.

Hi Leah..........welcome to the Café. For those of you who grew up at hq and had parents in leadership positions, I can only imagine the hardships, scrutiny, challenges and fear that were embedded into your psyche at such a young age. As you distinguished astutely in an earlier post.....it sounds like you are well on your way to separating your "cult self" from your "authentic self." And further, you have now established proper boundary lines with your family and loved ones by openly and publically stating what is acceptable, and not acceptable, to you. Good for you! Keep claiming what is rightfully YOURS.......an "authentic self." Individual sovereignty........to think, explore, believe, live, challenge, and commit to the passions that burn within your soul. My wife and I exited twi nearly 21 years ago after, what I would term, six turbulent years as leadership in Oklahoma. Suffice it to say that I spent time with your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, and some of your first cousins. Look how their lives have changed in the past 20-something years! Commitments changed. Perspectives altered. None of what they were, or weren't, committed to should hold sway to YOUR goals, passions or self-esteem. You have every right and reason to pursue this journey of self-exploration. And, from the sounds of things.....you've read some good books and, for years, have read threads here at GSC. Good for you. Go at the pace that fits your schedule. Most all of us have a past of *burdens, hurts and fears* that we are working thru or have overcome........hell, I went thru 10-days of deprogramming to fight my way back to my fiancé and then, dealt with years of being estranged from my parents/family. So, yeah......I can relate to the challenges one faces of self-authenticity and autonomy. Live on the sunrise side of the mountain......and greet the days that are before you. You are a brave woman and I commend you for it.

Welcome, Leah. About time!! You will get a lot of support here.

1. "Sadly, I cannot get this man to accept the notion that the Bible really is the word of God." Ok, let's start there. The Bible never calls itself the Word of God. That's part of the problem right there. The Bible speaks of the Word of God quite often, but it never has the self-awareness to declare itself to be that Word. Maybe, just maybe, you can be wrong about the Bible being the Word of God and still be a good Christian. 2. "I think he would like it to be..." Well, no one asked you what you think, did they? Maybe he has no preference one way or another and is just waiting for you to make a plausible case for your thesis. 3. "... but is overly obstinate and has an awful attitude towards God and his plan for man's redemption." A lot to unpack there. Has it occurred to you that maybe YOU're the one being "obstinate" with an "attitude" that won't budge no matter how many facts he presents to counter your preconceived notion that the Bible is the Word of God? Like, maybe YOU're the stubborn one, not him? Because he shows you the Bible, and you start making excuses. Oh, that's the Old Testament. God's different now. He's really kind and gentle. He did what he did before because he HAD to to fulfill the plan of redemption. Problem: The plan of redemption is only the plan of redemption because God wanted it that way. It didn't have to be. He could just accept an apology without shrugging his shoulders and saying oh well because someone found a particular fruit of a particular tree to yummy to pass up (He also could have put that tree ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET but instead put it right in front of two people who did not know good and evil; then said don't eat from that tree. Not exactly a strong case for omniscience. It's like I put a cookie on the table in front of my 7-year-old and said "Don't eat that," then walked out of the room. He's gonna eat the cookie. I'm not all knowing, and I know that). So your friend, I submit, is not stubborn. Rather, he's amused at the contortions you'll twist yourself into to deny what's obviously written. There IS not idiom of permission in the Bible. Bullinger, for what he's worth, appears to be the only one who makes an issue of it. It's hardly a scholarly consensus. The existence of other figures of speech does not verify the "idiom of permission" as something the Bible employs on a regular basis. It is, however, an extraordinarily convenient tool for believers to employ whenever their holy book shows God doing what no good God would ever do, even though the book is unambiguous about it being God who did it. But that's just the old testament. Unless, of course, you're holding back tithes from the apostles in Acts, which is New Testament. (Oh, but it doesn't say God did that. It was Satan -- even though the Bible doesn't say THAT either). The Bible is filled with examples of God saying he'll do something and then saying He did it. It doesn't say he allowed it to happen or he allowed Satan to do it. It says HE did it. Now, it COULD have said he allowed Satan to do it, very easily. Look at Job. Satan did those things. It says so. Yeah, he got God's permission, but it says that, clearly. There's no ambiguity, and there's no "this is how it works normally." A figure of speech is supposed to be a statement that is true in essence though not literally true. "It's raining cats and dogs" is a figure of speech. "This car can stop on a dime" is a figure of speech. A figure of speech is not supposed to be a way for you to get the Bible to say the opposite of what it clearly says just because what it clearly says is inconvenient for your theology. God ordered the execution of a man for picking up sticks on the sabbath. He didn't give man permission to kill the offending sabbath breaker. He gave man an order -- cast those stones! God didn't allow divorce. He prescribed it. He didn't allow Satan to kill all the firstborn of Egypt. He had it done. And he DID have a choice. When my kid offends me, I have a choice how to discipline him. You have no idea how many times my discipline has stopped short of killing him because he did his chores between sunset on Friday night and Saturday night! So here's a thought. Bear with me: Maybe your friend isn't the stubborn one in this equation. Maybe he's not the one being inflexible. Maybe, just maybe, he's given this far more thought than you have.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with trauma, PTSD or the sting of being ripped off. I was about to agree with you until you leaned on the cult trope of "crying about decades old offenses". These offenses include rape, sir. They include taking my teenage friends for abortions financed by a handful of money dipped from a free bucket of cash called "tithes". Perhaps giving your entire childhood to a movement that turned out to be a fraud run by grifters and perverts, stings a little. "Crying" isn.t weakness. It is a basic human emotions. If you don't cry while you're recovering from a literal attack on everything you are and everything you have, then you're the one with the problem. And by the way, I don't see anyone "crying" in the replies to your post. I see people who learned the hard way and are trying to warn you that these offenses, not all of which are "decades" old, hurt people. People still haven't recovered. Some people died, MAN. Do you have any idea the number of people who have died as a direct result of trauma from this cult? I have friends who died in accidents and were blamed for not being holy enough. It's gross. There is also no rule that says if you're "crying" about the way's literal crimes, that means that we aren't walking with Jesus. That is a fallacy. Both things can be true. You can walk with Jesus and be wise to The Way's bullcrap. And when we meet a person who says they went to HQ and everyone was so nice, we want you to know that trusting in this group will deceive you and you might not even know it's happening. If you want to stick your hand on the burner to see if fire is really hot, go ahead. You've been warned. But don't pretend that we are all crying. We were trying to warn you.

The foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rains came down and the floods came up... Glad they were nice to you. They are a poorly researched, mean spirited cult who worshipped a man and paid the price. They turned a blind eye to assaults of all kinds, theft, adultery, abuse of children and they separated families. This went on for decades, heck half a century plus. But I am glad they were nice to you.

Why I Wrote My Story -- Insanity on Steroids Five years ago, I put in writing here at GSC my experiences from those last ten years with The Way International. The reasons why I wrote my story were.....1) to send a warning to all those involved in twi and others considering taking classes from this cult, 2) an attempt to differentiate between Scripture-based Christians and twi's lockstep loyalty of servitude, and 3) to expose twi's incremental steps to overthrow one's will and consent. There are no fences with concertina wire to hold them prisoners, but there are very-real doctrines of fear and deception interlocking to prevent escape. Insanity on Steroids The strongholds of twi's prison are constantly praised and enforced by 1) Twi's MOG-doctrine and 2) the pfal class. In twi-mythology, wierwille was "the man of God" (to the whole world) who was called to teach the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. Secondly, the pfal class contained the essence of "the Word" that students were to stand on and never allow anyone to talk them out of it. Both elements, like rebar and concrete......keep twi's foundation "solid." No twi-imprisonment would be possible without the way corps.......like guards and walls, to keep the inmates from escaping into nearby communities, jobs/careers and family. Wierwille devised the corps program knowing that his (stolen) pfal class was not enough to keep people involved.....enforcers would be needed to keep them marching forward. Why was Martindale chosen as the second President of The Way International? What did wierwille say was the reason for choosing him? I have often cited that wiewille's corps leaders were abandoning him as early as 1978. Thus, he began to write "personal" corps letters in an attempt to strengthen that corps household bond. It didn't work. More and more corps were waking up to the fact that this "lifetime of Christian service" was in reality a life of twi-servitude. And, underneath the surface.....many corps were making plans of their own. When wierwille died in 1985, the full measure of that seething pot came to a boil. Let the splintering begin. Martindale was chosen to lead twi, according to wierwille.....because he ALWAYS OBEYED. Full stop. Period. Wierwille gave no other explanation......and THAT should have sent chills down our spines in 1981. According to vpw, martindale wouldn't ask how high he was to jump, he just jumped. Always. That was the criteria for being chosen as the cult's ..... twi's next president. · Geer took measures to undermine and sabotage twi's trustees. · Martindale seemed to actually believe he was the new "man of God." · Don and Howard wanted to keep the trains (and money) rolling in. · Rosalie (and Donna) were cunningly planning a coup. · John Lynn and others saw opportunities to start splinter groups. With Geer's paper, The Passing of a Patriarch, it is quite easy to see the bold strokes of a power-grab. Wierwille's death caused a flurry of activity and now, Martindale's peers were not going to accept his leadership as Chief Bottle Washer. Tumultuous times ensued and an euphemism "the fog years" was inserted to describe those ugly, back-stabbing years. No matter which leader or ex-leader you chose to associate with......they ALL had the baggage of cult-doctrine. Corps leaders, all of them, had gone thru an indoctrination program. Perhaps, the best choice would have been to keep one's distance for at least 10 years and see where the chips fall. I did not make that smart choice. I chose to stay involved with twi......and hence, those 10 years seeing Insanity on Steroids. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. With hindsight 20/20.....all of us here at GSC know now each choice involving Corps Leadership or Ex-Corps Leadership was fraught with error. Some of us chose to stand with martindale. Some chose geer. Some chose lynn. Some went back to a local church. Some chose to be left alone (smart choice). Thankfully, I only stayed until 1998. Other corps, and many corps coordinators (Moynihans, Forts, Horneys, Magnellis)......stayed until 2016/2017. Another 18 years being micro-managed by Rosalie Fox Rivenbark!!! And, one of the things that I find so amazing is that NOT ONE OF THESE CORPS LEADERS (cough, cough) have come clean. They STILL actively follow the path of wierwille-doctrine giving (subtle) allegiance to wierwille and his plagiarized teachings. With that in mind.....it makes it all the more important that our stories are out there!!! Splinter leaders are no different that their mother-cult. Same indoctrination path to idolatry. · How many have heard our warnings and changed course? · Lives, marriages, families, and careers have gained stronger footing. · Body blows have been given to twi and splinter groups. · Possibly, hundreds of thousands abs (millions?) have alluded twi's grasp. · Even 100s of indoctrinated corps have bailed in the past 15 years. · GreaseSpot Cafe continues to ROCK.....woohoo!!! Five years later, all the aspects of my life are better. Actually, pretty damn good (knock on wood). My critical thinking skills have skyrocketed and I spot manipulation and bullschit a mile away. I can't imagine what my life would be like had I not taken that challenging LEAP TO FREEDOM. Nor, can I imagine the hurt, guilt, and limitations that it would have imposed on our kids. Thank God for the scales falling from my eyes. Cults herd people into a chasm of dependency......mentally, physically, socially, and financially. They prey on your weakness and close the gates to your escape. Sure, you're around other "like-minded" sheep/cattle.....but are you being prepared for the slaughterhouses? Cults thrive on dependency and silence. Subjugating and institutionalizing people are their hallmarks of oppression. Those corps leaders who remain silent are complicit in the evil. So, keep telling your stories. .

Thanks for the replies. Growing up in this cult really did a number on me. I was afraid to ask questions and instead of thinkign that was not OK, I thought I was being decieved by Satan and it was him who was putting the questions in my mind. Think about being 9 years old and thinkign Satan himself is weaponizing your thoughts as a way to attack the Way. It's soul crushing. I just wanted the devil to leave me alone. In reality the devil had no interest in me at all. ugh

It does seem evident that the sinner's REPENTANCE is a necessary part of the equation. We forgive IF HE REPENTS. If he continues in sin and demands forgiveness regardless, that's nothing at all like we are instructed to do, and we don't have to do it. We are, however, to be wary around anyone who would demand it, or even ask it, for that matter. Now, for those who would SINCERELY wonder about someone trespassing AND REPENTING all day (7 times), I would point out that HYPERBOLE is a legitimate figure of speech people use all the time in English, and others understand them all the time. It's possible to misunderstand hyperbole- as it's possible to misunderstand ALL communications- but it's a lot more common if someone's TRYING to misunderstand it. [/b] [/b] Example of misunderstanding clear communication: William Shatner: " I’ve spoken to many of you, and some of you have traveled… y’know… hundreds of miles to be here, I’d just like to say… GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it’s just a TV show! I mean, look at you, look at the way you’re dressed! You’ve turned an enjoyable little job, that I did as a lark for a few years, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME! It's just a TV show!" Fan: "Are you saying we should pay more attention to the movies?"

Thank you, chockfull. It's a very humbling experience. Whenever anyone trusts you, you feel honored, right? Today, I'm looking through old files and just found this little piece I wrote in 2008. It's background stuff for Undertow but didn't make it into the final manuscript. Like a whole lot of other pieces. For what it's worth: The myth is broken (on the reasearch team at Way HQ) My own myth, The Way’s dogma, became unworkable for me. It needed a blind faith to stay involved with it. I had blind faith no more. I no longer trusted vp’s integrity, which was shot for me after all those long Literals meetings. When I first sat down for my first meeting with the research team I was excited. Thrilled beyond belief that God would call me to such a day, time, and hour, as vpw would say. With an overwhelming sense of purpose, and an even bigger boost to my ego, I took on a persona of what I thought was biblical literariness. This biblical literariness is sort of like what I later experienced when, as a freshman at OSU, I would knit my eyebrows and hunch over a book on literary criticism by Charles Lamb in a library cubicle. I’d emerge hours later, disconnected from the flow of regular time. I had to reprogram my mind to where I was and what time it was. At The Way, I became a fraud, albeit a sincere one. I thought we were doing honest biblical research until I noticed how subjective it all was, how fraught with politics – [we were told] don’t reveal vp’s blunders, choose the least strident interpretation, make it apply to us today by using today’s words. It never crossed my mind that the writers of those N.T. books might have had their own interpretations of the words of Jesus. Indeed, since God authored each and every word, how could they have had such private slants? Politics of the first century was totally unknown to me. Note: The Trial of Socrates By I.F. Stone Pg. 16 "Xenophon and Plato may have “heard” Socrates differently on the subject [of kingship] in accordance with their own preconceptions, as disciples so often do.”

Let’s look at this forgiveness topic from another perspective. The BODummies recently sent out a “come on home” postcard to a certain select group in their list of former member/slaves. They did not send out the postcard to the entire list. Most notably they don’t like people who post on this site and will never invite them back. On this site we don’t blame their victims but help them recover. We don’t excuse their immorality we call them out on it. We have done no evil here. Why can’t they forgive us for telling the truth about them? Why aren’t people hounding them to forgive everyone who left for understandable reasons? They use worldly designated “statuses” on their records to help them not forgive. And most of those mark and avoids like the RNR group were people trying to help them right the ship. I think some people should take their forgiveness guilt trip and shove it right back down the throat of the people demanding it of them but not doing it themselves. That’s what I do.

I believe that the real deal is possible and the path toward it is to address and correct all the doctrinal and practical error introduced by VPs box top doctorate research. isolation from other Christians, rote mechanics in place of worship manifestations, conspiracy theory, lack of sexual boundaries (Schoenheit adultery paper), and wrong dividing of scripture to introduce spiritual abuse via the all powerful leadership. The easiest way to see all this is to start from the practical side. What tactics do all destructive cults have in common? Once you see they all have common elements of control and unquestioning obedience, you can work backwards easily to see the false doctrine that introduced the error. Make no mistake it was the false teachings of VPW that caused far more damage than his personal behavior.

Looking back through the years of twi-involvement, I now see how this cult organization set their snares to entrap me. It is NO SECRET that cults target the youth and twi is no different. Through years of failure, wierwille learned that he was unable to get "church people" [especially church pastors] to join his ministry after taking the pfal class. Even teaching this class live to an audience.... wierwille failed to engage most pfal-attendees in the 1960's toward twi-servitude. Little by little, things began to change with "family camps" and the filming of the 1967 pfal class. Soon thereafter, young "firebrands" emerged to take the reins of outreach. Whether it was the hippie-types playing guitar in the park, like Donnie Fugit.... or the guys in a Way Home at ECU, youth were reaching other youth. Whatever the encounter, you were about to run the gauntlet as they set their I's on you. Introduction -- the entry point of your encounter Involvement -- the beginning baby-steps of attending twig, coffee house setting, or pfal class Isolation -- within weeks, you are subtly being isolated from friends, family, information, past activities Intimidation -- slowly, but surely, your authentic self is being re-formatted to a cult follower Immersion -- introduction of new classes, programs to reinstitute a new trajectory of your life Indoctrination -- most notably found in their programs, Fellow Laborers and Way Corps Training Idolization -- can be found at all levels, but mostly among adv class grads and corps grads Most generally, the first two steps are found at the "twig level." In the early 70's, many of these twig coordinators had a special care and oversight of those in their fellowship. Broadly speaking, it seemed to me like there were hundreds of true shepherds guarding their flocks by night. Dozens upon dozens of GSC-posts give testimony to those early days of twigs and twi-involvement. Depending on how long you stayed in this arrangement, you might have been left with the impression shared by many....Short stay, good memories. For those who were second generation and grew up in this cult environment, this scenario would be significantly altered. Isolation...incrementally, began at the twig level, but there was still plenty of time and freedom to "live and move about to your heart's desire." But it was the programs like Fellow Laborers and, specifically, the Way Corps Program where Isolation increased a hundredfold. What was presented as "a college where the Word of God is taught," was pure bait-and-switch. The overall tactic was nothing short of Manipulation of One's Consent. What we had agreed to was twisted to mean that we were consenting to "a lifetime of twi-servitude." Intimidation tactics began in earnest to quell any of the rabble-rousers. The hierarchy of leaders over leaders created an atmosphere of always needing some leader's permission to do the simplest of tasks. During work assignments, one might need to go to the shop coordinator to check out a screwdriver for fixing shelves, chairs or whatever. Yeah, sign your name on a checkout list to be allowed a screwdriver!?! God have mercy if you didn't return the item and resign your name in the appropriate box. Bullsh!t intimidation. The in-residence classes were straight-up cult Immersion. All classes were taught by in-house "Faculty".... ie, corps peers. Yeah, "in-house".... meaning that the echo chamber was growing louder as "the blind were leading the blind." In my case, we were being taught generally by the 5th, 6th, and 7th way corps. Much of the earlier corps 1-4 were busy with departments, limbs and regions to run. We didn't have any selection of classes or curriculum. Everything was block format. We were simply stationed at a specific campus and instructed to run ..... The Gauntlet of Classes and Indoctrination. With elder corps on both sides, I hoped to make it to "graduation day"... whatever that meant. LOL By the second year in-residence, we were heavily into more Indoctrination. Privy to more meetings and encounters with twi-hierarchy, one could see the machinations involved to keep the railroad running. Some experts tell us that a young man's mind is not fully developed until the age of 25..... and, in my case, I think that's a fitting description. I saw these red flags, but still wasn't fully cognizant of the destructive and evil nature of the beast. I wasn't aware that wierwille, martindale and others were abusing young corps girls in the motor coaches, cabin 12 at Gunnison and on-campus apartments. The indoctrination took all the full spectrum of cult tactics.... physical, emotional, psychological and spiritual abuse. Years ago, a poster named Catcup started a thread entitled.... The Nine Dots of Nonsense. Her opening post summarized very well how the corps program became a box of indoctrination. Is it any wonder that scores of followers reached the point of Idolization of wierwille and his doctrine? Entombed in a world of isolation for decades from the outside world can do that to your mind. What you look at.... you become. Remember that? What you center your whole mind and soul on.... becomes the center of YOUR world. It's a known reality in the psychological realm. All those hyperbolic declarations of "wierwille's greatness" .... all those night owls where we sat cross-legged at those campfires listening to wierwille's bloviating .... all the "bridge-builder" poem reading wherein wierwille equated himself as some great bridge builder who took time to stop and help others to new horizons .... those mind-numbing readings of "A Day with the Wierwilles" ... the life-size bronze statue of wierwille in the auditorium .... and the need to stand with the wierwille family in order that the word will continue to live......SHEEESH. Could I please have back at least three years of my life from such nonsense? The eyes of a cult, any cult, are always looking for new recruits. If there is a new generation of youth rising up at twi, I can only pray that they will be prodded awake by the hundreds of thought-provoking threads here at GSC. .

I copied the emotion graph and wanted to comment on how it made me aware of the wide range of emotions we as humans are capable of. A little off topic but looking at it reminds me that we were taught not to feel them. I’m so glad I can claim my humanity and not feel condemnation that I am being earthly and leaning on sense knowledge when I feel what I feel.

You're describing confabulation via confirmation bias. You literally decide anything you want, because of your narcissistic paranoia that your adversary is "out there", and decide that whatever you like is evidence. That's how revelation you describe works. You've given no test that might disprove your claims. You've lowered the basketball hoop and invented a new move. Growth does not happen in the real world without repeated failure and pain. You've provided a painless safe-space for yourself. Enamoured by the faux-intellectual reasoning, you're blinded to the real world. When tested against reality you can't see failure. You live in a fantasy. Your research produces nothing of value to anyone but yourself. When VPW received "revelation" he was lying to cover his own cowardness. He was too weak to compete against more competent individuals. So he used "revelation" to f_ck with the heads of overly trusting others. His leverage did not stand on its own. And neither does yours.

Reading twi's article both was emotionally and physically sickening. It so reinforced the doctrinal and practical errors that robbed believers of having a personal relationship with God and Jesus Christ. The gift of holy spirit that we received from God through Christ was changed five times into "your spirit" placing the emphasis on the believer's ownership (as mentioned in #2 above). This negates the "interagency" you spoke of in #1. In John 17:21, Jesus says, "That they (those who believe in him) all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." We know this is only possible because of God's spirit being within the believer. With regard to #3, the command or exhortation that we "operate the gift" (which is likened to driving a car) is so impersonal but it was stated seven times, as was the number of times that the emphasis was placed on us and not God or Christ. The following phrases were used: when you act or as you speak out (2x), as you decide and believe to do so; as each believer wills or maturely deliberates; by our freewill decision; and it is up to us. The 7th phrase incorrectly states "God energizes (energeō) the power as we believe and decide to act." This was in reference to Eph 1:19 which says nothing about "as we believe" or "deciding to act." It does say, "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe," but according to verse 17, this believing is totally dependent upon God giving us wisdom and revelation so that we can know him better. How can we know God better, or let God work in us and Christ live in us when the focus is all on "me, me, me?" I'm still learning about these things but I know this short article is wrong, wrong, wrong at least 14 different times! Time to read OldSkool's post again about t he story of God and his people having always been, is right now, and will always be a love story.

It was worse than that. We worked secular jobs that we couldn't focus on to earn money to pay for rent for a large enough home to hold church meetings in. Then on top of that we sent in tithes and offerings from those earnings. All so we could have the privilege to work a fulltime non paid job doing all the leg work so jackasses in high towers can act important and make policy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why 95% of their leadership training graduates have fled for more rational endeavors.

I didn't meet John, personally. I do remember rather vividly, though, a teaching of his on grace. He was a pitcher, presumably for his college baseball team. "There I was -- up by a run in the bottom of the ninth. By SOME STRANGE TWIST OF FATE, the bases were loaded with nobody out. I struck out the next two batters with six BLAZING fastballs. At that point, the first baseman told me that with two out, he wouldn't be holding the runner on. Of course, I knew that. After two pitches to the batter, I could see the runner at first with a big lead, so I completely forgot what the first baseman had told me. I wheeled to throw to first, and life went into slow motion. I couldn't throw to first, because the first baseman wasn't there. I couldn't hold on to the ball, because that would be a balk and bring the tying run in. So, I threw it to the RUNNER. Reflexively, he caught it, then dropped it like a hot potato and started running. The umpire called him out for interference. Game over. Grace: being completely in the wrong but coming out smelling like a rose." Rest in peace, John. George

A. A complicated man with a complicated legacy. In many ways, the embodiment of my post-TWI determination not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. He truly believed, as many of us once did, that we were privileged with something extraordinary but imperfect, and he dedicated his life to improving it. Along the way he embraced and promoted some indefensible stuff, and he defended it with a stubborn passion that would be admirable in the service of a more worthy cause. When he met me, I felt broken. He did his best to heal my heart, to restore the sense of spiritual family I lost at a time of personal crisis. He refused to judge me or condemn me. I admire his dedication. As it gave way to stubbornness... let his legacy be a warning.

vpw was determined to make a profit on everything twi- related. If it cost something, he'd try to get it free, or try to get it on the cheap if that was impossible. When he filmed the pfal class, he "bought" the desk for the set, then returned it for a refund, lying and claiming something was wrong to get a refund. Run a class? It's always at someone's home, so we pay no rent, and twi peons supply all refreshments out-of-pocket. All books were charged full retail despite having been printed and bound in-house, all audio tapes were made of a truly inferior quality, a level you couldn't buy in retail stores. Its mission program- wow- was run at a profit- the wow had to pay a fee to go out, and no funds were released to house them or otherwise run the program. Its leadership program- the corps- was run at a profit- with each student charged lots of money to participate, with other people chipping in the rest. In all other organizations, the group carries part or all of the expenses for such programs. On top of that, the corps WORKED. They were charged money, were housed in tiny "residences" and paid for the privilege of working for free. If there IS a God, vpw will have to account for all of that.

One of the most liberating things when I left TWI was the realization the Sh1t Happens.

VPW said it. That settles it. I don't believe it.

(Hope OK to do this; don't want the discussion to be buried in the old way tapes!) A few quotes from the Old Way Tapes thread that are on this excellent needed topic IMO, and my thankful reply: He was grooming us to extend our bounderies of acceptance. (Sorry, the belows didn't copy well) [Waysider posted: He was grooming us to extend our bounderies of acceptance.] [T-Bone posted: I agree. Wierwille’s modus operandi was in developing an undercurrent that grew stronger as one became more involved with the organization (like joining programs and staff). Undercurrent: an underlying feeling or influence, especially one that is contrary to the prevailing atmosphere and is not expressed openly; a current of water below the surface and moving in a different direction from any surface current…teachings available to the general public were seemingly benign promoting study of the Bible, offering keys to overcoming adversity and finding fulfilment in life. All that supposedly wholesome sounding Bible stuff on the surface hides the undertow. You'll find it's all about wierwille's skewed interpretation of the Bible commingled with lies... Your hopes and dreams become entangled with the busy work of the ministry. Any false sense of happiness and fulfillment really depends on how much you commit to an organization. Christian, beware these are treacherous waters! The deeper you go the more you find wierwille’s influence leading you further and further away from the simple and honest life of a Christian. Wierwille was like Captain Nemo and my experience in TWI was like twenty thousand (or more) lies under the sea.] Me, Annio now: Well expressed and Ah YES, THANK YOU!!! These posts are extremely helpful to me for several reasons- 1) Am still recovering from various way ministry abuses and they give needed big picture context 2) Have had discussions with an old friend recently who still connects to/with Chris Geer folks; now I can see more clearly the reasons for her continued adulation of vpw and inability/ unwillingness to accept the trauma that I went through. 3) I can see parallels betw the modus operandi of vpw and Harvey Weinsten, Jeffrey Epstein, Catholic priests, et al. Weinstein was a bully in general, several ppl testified, so naturally this can extend to a man's sexual relationships with women who need his support/connection to advance their careers. A male assistant said working for him was like "being in a cult". Vpw was a bully with power in general, and used sex as a way to bring "privileged" young women into his inner circle using his false mog persona. There are numerous parallels between all of these predators, the normalizing cultures around them, the addictions they had, the sense that they were untouchable re: the law/consequences, etc. 4) All of this is building up my desire to DO something. Since I left the way in '88 and transitioned with others into Chris Geer's fold for a good while, and since CG led me to the motor coach in '80, I did research and found his home address: 13 Casselton Rd, Raymond, ME, 4071-6727. Maybe I will write him a letter... Maybe I will write Kris Skedgell about how much her wonderful book Losing the Way meant to me; she was at the family camp where I took PFAL in '74 (and where a young man just about seduced me)... Maybe I will contact the young leader who helped himself to me during my way corps interim year (so ironic that vpw taught [oh so benignly as has been said] that 1 Cor 7:1 could read "a man should not help himself to a woman"... Talk about reverse undercurrents...). We shall see... Maybe CFF folks would give a listening ear? That would be helpful. They have alot of my trust in other areas; DWBH's sharing about his conversation with Kevin Gigou and I think Sarah, confirmed my positive regard for them. 5) And all of this is building up my desire to find some closure, as much as is possible here on this earth. We shall see! Yep, I have been able to process alot by posting here; apologies if I share too much info... So good to know you all are here!! And maybe I can support others on their journeys from time to time. Cheers, and best to you all!!

@Lifted Up My post in this thread is the first time I've ever let the universe know about what happened. I was in FC 18 if anyone was there or knows anyone from that time. I know the exact person who did it and her entire family is still strongly in TWI as far as I know. "Saying" those words in an internet forum to complete strangers made me reach out to my brother who is younger than me and I told him about it. All he said was he knew I've been dealt bad cards my whole life and didn't even want to talk about it. I am 6 months shy of 40 and haven't cried this much in decades, or ever. Clearly a valve opened up, but the lack of understanding from my family has been devastating. I can't even talk to my parents because they are still "going strong" in TWI. Looking back it is clear that it is this one incident that fractured my entire family by making me pull inside myself. In turn I started acting out against my parents and started bullying my brother. I almost feel worse for my brother now, he has no love in his heart because of my reaction to being raped and how I treated him afterward. He literally told me he doesn't understand why people need family and love and support. I died inside. He is more scarred than I. I am the typical older sibling who has jumped from career to career and he is extremely rich/wealthy now through a very hard work ethic because of my bullying. Ironically he is the exact type of person I despise and believe are ruining the world and I had no idea. I've confronted my parents about other things regarding TWI throughout the years and my mother just defends everything in typical fashion by turning a blind eye or citing the same bs we all know and have heard a million times. And for the record, my incident occurred while my parents were on LEAD as well. I remember because I balled my eyes out as I was scared for my parents being alone and hitchhiking for a week. Even at a young age I knew you could get the same experiences doing something much safer. But wtf do I know? I quit a teaching job at a university right before covid hit as they were about to give me tenure so I could be the stay at home parent for my first born. (Don't feel bad for me it was a good decision.) I decided to have a child finally because I realized how miserable I have been chasing money and having no love in my life. It was and is scary but I am so grateful I had the self awareness to go against the grain of what society thinks I should do. It has taken me 3 decades to be able to love another human being, and I am grateful that I'm late to the party instead of missing it entirely. TWI definitely engrained into me that what people think of you matters and you better fit in or else you aren't welcome. (Eventually I was marked and avoided!) Now at almost 40, everyday I have to wake up and fight what society expects and instead do what is good for me. I've never done anything good for myself and I don't even know if I know how. But I'm trying. I'm trying real hard to keep it together. (I have so much anger that my parents always pick TWI over me even as I write this. Any help on letting that go would be greatly appreciated.)

I like the total of 1 comment at the very bottom of their web page. But I must say...I really like the comment. LOL

As for motives, since we have so much information on vpw's life and comments, we can trace a relatively clear path, at least in his own words. We know that vpw told the early corps that he considered business, music AND ministry before going into ministry. (Yes, looks like he got into all 3, I know.) So, going into ministry was a CAREER decision, not a calling. We know that he claimed that in his first 2 years in ministry, each of those years, he seriously considered giving up. So, going into ministry wasn't about CONVICTION, but about convenience. We know that he took "Homiletics" or preaching, as his area of study- not "Bible history" or anything rigorous- he picked probably the softest option. When he was into his second year as a preacher was when he first heard the idea that the Bible was the word of God and that he didn't believe it prior to that. (We don't know what he based the first year's sermons on, but it wasn't on the idea that the Bible was really special.) We also know that he inflated his credentials- like when he claimed he took ALL of Moody's correspondence courses, but according to their records, he never took ANY of their courses. (They have records of all completed courses, and there is NO record of him having turned in even one course.) We know that, around 1970 or shortly thereafter, vpw began claiming he heard from God Almighty back in 1942, in a promise that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. We know that, according to him, his first thought when he supposedly heard that was that EVERYONE WOULD LISTEN TO HIM if that was the case. We also know that he's cited snowstorms that didn't exist to punctuate events he later claimed were important. In 1953, he went to a convention where he met JE Stiles and learned from him, later plagiarizing the entire contents of Stiles' book on the Holy Spirit for his own publication. Of that day, he claimed the city was in a blizzard, and planes, trains AND buses were all out. (There wasn't even a single flake on the ground.) When confronted with this, he never claimed anyone was mistaken- instead he claimed that angels answered the phones at the bus depot, etc and lied to him each time. All of that says quite a bit about the man, and that's hardly everything.

Same pattern.........always. Rivals wait for opportunistic time Head Minister passes away or retires When not promoted to big chair....plots strategy Abides time to "break away" and be in charge Find chinks in their armor/doctrine Isolate his splinter group from "wrong doctrine" Be sure that support ($$$) is firmly in place Behold.......another offshoot grows in the midst Nothing new under the sun...... Heck.....wierwille's "thriving ministry" only lasted 12 years (1970-1982) Then, he retired......and the infighting started.

Hello all, This is my first comment after finding these forums a few weeks ago. I was born in 1982 into a family that was part of TWI; my parents were part of a twig group in the Houston area. From what I understand, my family and a big chunk of people in the Houston area broke off and started a splinter group sometime in the mid to late eighties. My mom and stepdad kept most of that info from us, but I remember them warning my sister and I not to answer any questions regarding PFAL materiel if someone came knocking at the door. The day I turned 18 I left and never went back to a fellowship. This caused a great stress between my mother, stepfather, and I and I went nearly a decade without talking to them. Between then and now I have put in work to try to build a relationship with them, but it is a very small slice of my life that I can share with them or that they can share with me without treading into religious waters. Despite that, I felt like I have been on the right track with them showing up for weekly dinners and starting to get to know them a little bit again. That is, until my sister died last month. It was a horrible accident and she was far too young in her mid 30's. I took on the bulk of the funeral planning, as hospitality and events is my profession. It was really difficult to plan because it forced me to negotiate with them about how much their religion would be involved in the service. We decided on a non-secular event hall, which was easy because they would have had an issue going anywhere with any other kind of religion involved. The tough part is that they wanted their reverend to speak for an hour of the 2 hour service. I fought tooth and nail to get it down to 15 minutes, which they agreed to. He spoke for 40 minutes. It was so difficult sitting through his angry sermon, where he was talking about drinking blood, speaking in tounges, and then pitching people taking PFAL classes. WTF. I left so angry. For the first time I started examining how TWI and their offshoot really effected me and the people I love in my life. I grew up feeling extremely emotionally and physically isolated from the outside world, and I am just now (in my late thirties) figuring out how to come to terms with that. I am married and have a good job, but that has taken serious work. I have a hard time really opening up and connecting with people although I yearn for it and work for it daily. My dad was excommunicated after he and my mother divorced (she cheated on him with their TWI marriage counselor). This probably had to do with my dad being gay :P. He hid his sexuality from my sister and I because he knew it meant we wouldn't get to see him. He never missed a child support check even though he was broke and despite constant pressure from my mom/stepdad and TWI pressuring him to cut ties. Once he finally came out, my mom and stepdad really freaked out because they are convinced he has devil spirits. For just under two decades they have had a cool relationship with each other, only talking when it had something to do with my sister or I. During the funeral they were cordial during the planning process, but cool during the funeral. Anyone former TWI or current offshoot would ignore my dad and his partner of 25 years. People who he has known for decades just pretended he wasn't there. After I spoke my heart at the funeral speaking about my sister and her life, I started getting the same treatment. It turns out I offended people by talking about her dad and his partner in the eulogy. That made me feel angry and sad. It also made me feel proud for speaking my mind to a group that didn't want to hear from me. Anyway, I am sorry for the word soup and I hope that I haven't gone way off topic here. I am just looking for information now. I am researching the people who I know are in their group now. I want to figure out what offshoot they are a part of and where all this PFAL money is going, considering it isn't supported by TWI anymore. My parents hold classes and travel regularly to hold and attend retreats. I am dying to know how big the splinter is that they are a part of. I want to learn more and face this. Does anyone know of any major offshoots that have a strong presence in the Houston area? Am I allowed to list names in this group to see if any of you know any of these people? Thank you all. It has been fascinating learning about your experiences.

In my view, even though it's often revolting to read VPW's own incriminating words that illustrate how deranged he was, it's a valuable way to gain understanding of how he used classic cult leader tactics to keep us Corps from thinking independently and to make himself appear blameless in the face of evidence to the contrary.