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Perhaps you are unfamiliar with trauma, PTSD or the sting of being ripped off. I was about to agree with you until you leaned on the cult trope of "crying about decades old offenses". These offenses include rape, sir. They include taking my teenage friends for abortions financed by a handful of money dipped from a free bucket of cash called "tithes". Perhaps giving your entire childhood to a movement that turned out to be a fraud run by grifters and perverts, stings a little. "Crying" isn.t weakness. It is a basic human emotions. If you don't cry while you're recovering from a literal attack on everything you are and everything you have, then you're the one with the problem. And by the way, I don't see anyone "crying" in the replies to your post. I see people who learned the hard way and are trying to warn you that these offenses, not all of which are "decades" old, hurt people. People still haven't recovered. Some people died, MAN. Do you have any idea the number of people who have died as a direct result of trauma from this cult? I have friends who died in accidents and were blamed for not being holy enough. It's gross. There is also no rule that says if you're "crying" about the way's literal crimes, that means that we aren't walking with Jesus. That is a fallacy. Both things can be true. You can walk with Jesus and be wise to The Way's bullcrap. And when we meet a person who says they went to HQ and everyone was so nice, we want you to know that trusting in this group will deceive you and you might not even know it's happening. If you want to stick your hand on the burner to see if fire is really hot, go ahead. You've been warned. But don't pretend that we are all crying. We were trying to warn you.

The foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rains came down and the floods came up... Glad they were nice to you. They are a poorly researched, mean spirited cult who worshipped a man and paid the price. They turned a blind eye to assaults of all kinds, theft, adultery, abuse of children and they separated families. This went on for decades, heck half a century plus. But I am glad they were nice to you.

Great atticle defining a cult https://findingmyway12.substack.com/p/waityou-grew-up-in-a-cult

Almost thou persuadest me to be an atheist

WW kind of sideswiped a theory I've been working under for the past few years. I've brought it up before but it bears repeating. I have a suspicion (not enough evidence to call it a theory) that VPW was an unbeliever at heart. In tribute to Mike's thesis about how Wierwille hid great truths in plain sight and we all missed it: He declared himself to be all but atheist after studying the Bible. He no longer believed the words Holy or Bible on the cover (which is grammatically and rhetorically stupid, but you get his point). Being educated about the Bible, its history and authorship caused him to all but lose his faith. He said so! What if he never regained it? Bear with me: what if, from that moment forward, it was never about getting God and His Word right, but getting while the getting was good? He got money. He got adoration, He got fame (relative to most of us). He got attention. He got sex. He got power. How much of what he did makes more sense if he didn't believe a word of it but knew how to manipulate people to get what he wanted from them? Every time he discovered a niche, he exploited it. "This book is not some kind of Johnny come lately idea just to be iconoclastic..." [if someone has the correct wording, please let me know. I'll be happy to fix]. Oh it WASN'T? Because it was so shoddy I would think that you were selling a title rather than a book. You have a doctorate. You know how to present and defend a thesis (stop laughing, you in the back row. @#$%ing Snowball Pete). But he was an unbeliever. He KNEW the scholarship about the Bible that people like Bart Ehrman and Dan McClellan are popularizing today. He knew and he stopped believing. And THAT is when the bulls hit started. The funny thing is, it doesn't negate anything he taught. Just his motives. If McClellan and Ehrman are right, the first Christians really weren't Trinitarians. They weren't what Wierwille espoused either, though some were. Jehovah's Witnesses actually got it right, if McClellan and Ehrman are correct. But even that conclusion presupposes a unified message from the New Testament writers. And they weren't unified. Here's the problem Wierwille exposed that a lot of Christianity still gets wrong. There WAS NO FIRST CENTURY CHURCH. There were first century churches. Tons of them. And they disagreed with each other about EVERYTHING. Another topic for another time. Bottom line, I'm increasingly coming to believe that Wierwille's rise and ministry can best be explained by the hypothesis that he was an unbeliever from the moment before he became relevant.

For those of you asking. The Way is no longer supporting "tithing", in their STS they talk about "GIVE" and in the last fellowship I participated I was encourage to give freely. So they are not longer asking for 15% even for graduates of the advanced class ( I was) The Way has changed in the recent years? For sure, ¿ real changes? Not at all. TWI is bringing back the "good old years", uploading VPW teachings on their Youtube Channel, offering basically the same content. And hiding some of their core teachings in order to look more appealing to a younger crowd. Good people in TWI? For sure, you can find good people everywhere. You'll receive a lot of love in the beginning (Love-bombing uhh) ; as long as you don't commit to the ministry, they won't ask much of you. When you become deeply involved with TWI, the hell and abuse begin. And even though LCM's abusive tactics are no longer as prevalent, the emotional and psychological manipulation persists. I left TWI a little over two years ago. If you have any question about current TWI, just ask. Have a good day!

Glad you had a good experience Joyful. For many of us here, it would take a lot more than people being friendly and joyful to overcome the darkness the organization embraced for many years. If you go to ROA 2025, let us know what you think.

No, thanks.

I remember, back in the day, there was a twig leaders' syllabus that outlined acceptable behavior at large events, such as limb meetings, branch meetings and so forth. One of the admonitions listed was to "refrain from picking your own seat." My question is this: Are there currently any circumstances under which it's acceptable to pick your seat? Whose seat should you pick instead? (Yes, thank you, I've been told I'm a twisted individual.)

Freedom, a new life, a new perspective about God and the Bible An opportunity to love all people, to serve from something as basic as a warm greeting in the morning to saying thank you and please, not being a false servant in a group only to become a leader. A wonderful chance to get closer to my family, that family from which I distanced myself because they did not participate in the ministry.

TWI has changed a little bit during the recent years. But their change its only towards recover the "good old days" of VPW and PRE-LCM. VPW is still the main figure and the functioning of the organization and psychological abuse towards people persists. They're not willing to apologize to people; they only ask them to forgive and move forward "in love" . It's sad, but they demand greater maturity from the "average" believer than they do from the leader. Forgiving someone does not immediately mean restoring the relationship or psychological healing.

Thanks For the Letters Charlene, I'm new in the Forum though I lurked for years. And I left the Way 2 years ago.

????????

Oh, they're full of it, alright.

For many people, recovery is an on-going process. Think in terms of something like weight loss. You don't reach your target weight and suddenly abandon the effort. I think there's a bit of a parallel in the comparison, but maybe that's just me.

Must have been when he wasn't busy inventing the hook shot.

The question is - will they bring back the shower tent? If you weren’t there picture a tent with hundreds of naked men or women all out in the open with no curtains showering off like cattle. I was a teenager and it was mortifying. Let’s not forget the drugs and orgies in tent city and LCM ranting for hours under the big top. Remember when the WOWs got cancelled for being “infested with homos”? Maybe they will bring back LCM to see if the new ambassadors pass his “homo sniff test.” Any other Rock of Ages nostalgia? It’s fun to reminisce. Their beliefs are too weird to attract any new people in large numbers so they turn to the good ol’ days and hope people will come back. Ironically, I had made peace with the way and never thought about it until I got one of those post cards which brought me back into looking at this site and revisiting how screwed up it all was. what a sad bunch of whack jobs.

That substack by Liz Childers is remarkable in that she shows so well what her cult experience was like and how it continues to affect her today. She writes in such a brave, down-to-earth way, with clarity and deep understanding. Cheers to Liz! Charlene

You know, it is possible John might answer questions about his paper and what happened way back when if any of you ask him. Here's the website contact page to reach him and his organization: Connect With Us | Spirit & Truth

I was going out WOW and on our way to Amarillo I flipped into a manic psychotic episode and they put me on a bus. I got off the bus in Oklahoma City and was acting crazy and the police picked me up and put me in jail. A warden took it upon herself to look into my purse and fortunately my parents’ address and phone number were in it. (They had moved) and she contacted my dad who flew to OKC and took me home. Without these “fortunate” occurrences God only knows what would have become of me. It’s only because God took care of me not TWI. By the way, I didn’t really want to go WOW in the first place but was pressured into it by my twig leader. I’m bipolar but was undiagnosed at the time.

I was born and raised as a Roman Catholic, and attended their schools. I bought into their belief’s and even thought of becoming a priest, in other words I was sold on their doctrine. UNTIL the Second Vatican Council in 1962. Prior to this no Catholic could eat meat on Friday, and if they did it was a mortal sin. A mortal sin would send you to hell if you did not confess the sin to a priest. So if a Catholic was to eat a bologna sandwich for lunch on any Friday, and on the way home they were killed in a motor vehicle accident, their soul would immediately be damned to hell for eternity. Pretty severe for sure and not very comforting for their surviving Catholic family. Then, the Second Vatican Council decreed that eating meat on Friday, except for Lent, was no longer a mortal sin. In other words, you can eat bacon and eggs for breakfast, a ham and cheese sandwich for lunch, and rib steak for dinner, and no longer commit a mortal sin. How in the name of fairness and common sense, could a loving God cast his children into everlasting hell for eating meat on Friday prior to the Second Vatican Council, and not post Second Vatican Council? That opened my eyes to the ridiculousness of this teaching and started me on a very long journey realizing that trying to explain a loving God was also ridiculous. There are several thousand Christian religions that all disagree on how to obtain eternal life. Plus all the other world religions all have their way of salvation. If you can’t prove one is tight then all must be wrong.

I have a first hand recollection of him teaching that masturbation was the original sin. That's not an event you casually forget.

That's really big brush you're painting with there.

When we were in our teens, WordWolf once had a bunch of notes from which I used to study, and one of them was "Things in Which Christians Are to Abound," or something close to that. The list was believing, the Word, knowledge, diligence, love and grace. It was drawn from II Corinthians 8:7. It took me years to realize what II Corinthians 8 was doing. To really grasp it, you HAVE to let go of the tithe. Only then does the section make sense. A group of Christians was exceedingly generous to Paul, and he was using that group as an example to the Corinthians for how to approach giving. Their gift was both generous and entirely voluntary. The percentage was not discussed. And then v. 7 makes total sense. As you abound in one thing, abound in the other. A standard is being set. As you about in A, abound in F. As you abound in B, abound in F. As you abound in C, abound in F. It's not just a list of things in which we are to abound. It is a standard that is supposed to underscore our motivation to give. You call yourself a Christian who believes? Give accordingly! You call yourself a speaker of the Word? Give accordingly! You call yourself knowledgeable of the Word? GIve accordingly. You call yourself committed to the spread of the Word? Give accordingly. You say you love? Give accordingly. Our giving, according to the Bible, is to be motivated by these attributes. Not a percentage. A reflection of your commitment, of your dedication, of your seriousness about this whole Christian thing. The tithe is not a minimum or a maximum. It's not even a reference point. Abraham tithed ONE TIME, best as we can tell from scripture. No one told him to do it. No one asked him to do it. He wasn't setting a pattern. If he was, the pattern was this: YOU choose when to give. YOU choose who receives it. YOU choose how much. There is no place in scripture where ALL believers are instructed to tithe. It is simply NOT the big deal churches make it out to be. I've long forgotten my deep dive into tithing. But I do remember this much: believers should give, and give generously. NO ONE defines "generously" but you. Just don't be a hypocrite about it. When something's important to you, you invest in it.

Sadly, there is quite a lengthy list of posters who will never post here or anywhere else again. Missed, but not forgotten. Life can be rather cruel at times. Enjoy life while you still can and celebrate each new day.

Yeah. For some reason I didn't notice the time stamp. It's a Wonder-Stevie Kay (mid to late 1970s) Her voice reminds me a lot of Joan Baez. Probably the fast vibrato.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying this is not the place to discuss it.

Differences of opinion! Differences of opinion are allowed at the GSC! Politics are verboten. Anyone who takes a position that "vpw was the greatest man of God since the apostle Paul" will find they've taken a VERY unpopular stance and will be debated. But they will be allowed to post- as will everyone who disagrees with them. Differences of opinion, agreeing to disagree, and independent thought are not allowed at twi, and never were. So, people used to twi and ex-twi ONLY may find freedom to think unsettling. But it's an asset.

It's taken me about 25-30 years to heal from the TWI experience too. But happily not that long to buy my house. I messed around for a decade, afraid to make any decisions of any kind. Finding this place helped me heal a lot. But nothing disappeared instantly. I bought my house with much trepidation in 2007. I made overpayments every year when I could. I think my 25 year mortgage ran originally till I was 74, but it has been repaid (YIPPEE) for several years now, thanks to very diligent efforts on my part. It was either pay off the house, or pay into a pension scheme, not enough for both. I am entitled to get state pension (not a lot) but the thought of a mortgage as a pensioner was horrible. I have deferred claiming my pension because for every 9 weeks that I defer, I get a small uplift in the amount received. And, praise the Lord, he had a plan for me to get a pension anyway. I am getting married soon and my husband has a big pension and on his decease I will get half his amount, which, together with my state pension, will be more than I have ever earned in my life! As WordWolf mentioned earlier, we have a variety of beliefs here. I'm in the "God is good" category. I go to a great church which is very involved with the community around it. I do not subscribe to the standard beliefs of my church (am still non-trini) and I would go elsewhere if I felt the church was "off" in its treatment of parishioners. Well, no, first I would have a "what's going on?" session with any leadership that seemed off, and would escalate that if necessary. The days of being beaten down by nasties like TWI leadership are long gone. But so far, nothing has raised any red flags, nor seems likely to.

No one is being combative with you. You asked questions and answers were provided. You've accused people, at least implicitly, of crying and not moving on. I tried to help you understand that your dismissiveness is not merely a childish cop out, it's a form of gaslighting. Perhaps my showing you this caused you discomfort, causing you to falsely accuse me of trying to start a forbidden topic while blaming you for it. After admittIng the possibility of my own failure at communicating, I offered a different illustration. Now you 're gaslighting again accusing people of being combative. This is how you react when you are challenged and corrected? It's a discussion. You aren't the only one allowed to take a passionate position for or against an idea.

It's too early for me to share the personal and painful details of my life. I can tell you that with the support of God , my family, a psychiatrist, and a psychologist, I've been able to move forward. Although I don't resent TWI, I wouldn't recommend anyone attend TWI unless it's ONLY to receive information about Romans 10:9 and then leave in peace. Where do I start? Lies about the ministry's origin, lies about the content they teach, plagiarism, abuse. Leaders believe they are chosen by God because of VPW's misuse of Romans 13, and those leaders believe that since they are called by God, they can do whatever they please. If you are with the ministry, they will be with you; if you walk away from the ministry, all those friends.. will stop talking to you. They use people, they don't love them. They "research" the WORD OF God only to the extent that it doesn't contradict VPW. (CULT-RED FLAG) They have abused thousands of people around the world, and now that Martindale and Rivenbark are gone... they go around telling people to "forgive" and move forward with the "Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation." It's not an honest organization that publicly and openly acknowledges mistakes; they only do so privately (at some point the will do) TIME TO COME HOME uhh? They don't teach people not to harm; They don't teach people not to harm; they demand that victims forgive abusers, and they keep the abusers in power. If you want details, send me a PM. God Bless U, PD: Vern seems like a good man, with good intentions. But he doesn't have the strength to weed out TWI's sectarian practices. (I met him 3 times)

Sorry to hear that... well, we know now there's abundant life outside of TWI. Thank you for posting and please continue!

I wonder if they still throw darts at a map to make assignments. They're gonna need a pretty big map, I suppose.

Hmmmm. You might be on to something.

Don't mind me, I'm a cynical old fart. Part of this reminds me of my own early experiences, all those years ago. Everyone seemed so happy, joyful, "We sure do love you" and all that jazz. Different from mainstream churches. Love bombing at its best. Somehow, I don't see it ending well. Your mileage may vary.

I don't know anything about narcissistic children, but I know something about the full blown disorder (NPD) in adults. Adults that develop this disorder usually suffered trauma/abuse as children. This abuse is usually by a parent who is an NPD/sociopath themself. Often the abuse is severe neglect or abandonment. It can even be overvaluing the child. (This may seem counterintuitive, but it's the academic term for "spoiled rotten.") The NPD seeks to destroy that which they did not experience. A form of revenge? Envy? I don't know why exactly, but narcissists are attracted to good people who are strong, honest, kind, generous, empathetic, loved and authentic. They didn't have any of that as children. NPDs are incapable of honestly expressing and living those qualities. Others who exemplify and embody those qualities are targeted. And they are then systematically destroyed. Self esteem isn't the primary reason. Empathy is a significant factor.

What Do You Know About Cults? What is a cult? “An ideological organization held together by charismatic relationships and demanding total commitment.” ~ Benjamin Zablocki, PhD, “Cults: Theory and Treatment Issues.” http://www.icsahome.com/articles/cultspsymanipsociety-langone How do cults recruit? Promises and pressure What are some warning signs? Charismatic, authoritarian, self-proclaimed leader with no check on power Deceptive recruiting (often sincere) Critical inquiry viewed as “persecution” Organized psychological manipulation Emotional, sexual, and financial exploitation Inner circle of loyal followers with secret beliefs/behavior No meaningful economic transparency How do cults undermine freedom? Demand loyalty to cult leader/ideology Disallow freedom of religion (theirs is the only right one) Intimidate to prevent free thought Control personal goals Destabilize freedom of association How can we respond to recruiters? ABCD A - Always research group B - Be firm when refusing recruitment C - Challenge appealing promises D - Don’t tolerate deception, even from a friend Warning: An imbalance of power is an opportunity for abuse. Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International By Charlene L. Edge. Memoir. Paperback and eBook at major booksellers & indie bookstores “… A frank, in-depth account of one woman’s struggles in a controlling organization.” — Kirkus Reviews Gold medal winner - Florida Authors and Publishers Association, 2017 On Book Riot’s list of “100 Must-Read Books About Life in Cults and Oppressive Religious Sects” What it’s about: After a family tragedy struck, teenaged Charlene rejected Catholicism, family, and friends to join what became one of the largest fundamentalist cults in America: The Way International led by Victor Paul Wierwille. After promotion to the inner circle of biblical researchers, Charlene discovered secrets: Wierwille’s plagiarism, misuse of Scripture, and sex abuse. Amid chaos at The Way’s headquarters, Charlene escaped. Why Undertow matters: Each year about 50,000 to 100,000 people enter or leave high-control groups called “cults” (data: The International Cultic Studies Association). Movies like Going Clear and The Path have captured the nation’s attention. Undertow is a personal story about cult recruitment and fear-based manipulation by an authoritarian, charismatic leader. The fundamentalist mindset, espousing certainty about God and the meaning of the Bible, causes untold divisions in families and communities. Undertow shows this pain from an insider’s perspective and that healing is possible. A taste of Undertow: “I gulped down Doug’s words without doing any critical thinking, not pressing him to prove what he said. He was so sincere that I clung to his assertions, like ‘believing equals receiving,’ as if they were heaven-sent.” CHARLENE L. EDGE spent 17 years in The Way (1970–1987). Later she earned a B.A. in English from Rollins College and worked for more than a decade as writer in the software industry. She is a published poet and essayist and a member of the Florida Writers Association, the Authors Guild, and the International Cultic Studies Association. She lives in Florida with her husband, Dr. Hoyt L. Edge. She blogs at: http://charleneedge.com

Was in church on Sunday. Our sermon series is about our identity as Christians. The curate, Ben, gave a talk was about being salt and light. Little bit different idea of "salt" but completely acceptable. Then he turned to a discussion of "light" and hiding candlesticks under bowls, cities on hills, etc - y'all know the passage. And then he said: "You are all lightbearers. Bearers of the light!" Lightbearers!!! Not a word commonly used by people. Never encountered it in ordinary conversation. Maybe the Olympics talks about that, but the expression is usually "torch bearer." I quite enjoyed Lightbearers apart from the hitchhiking. A nice, enjoyable, two week release from the stifling prison and rigid discipline of being at HQ. Stayed with, met, hung out with, some really nice people. Witnessed to some nice people - and some less nice ones. Overall, no regrets. I could even say, I have happy memories. Got back after one such expedition to have the whole group of us bollocksed for not being good enough. We deserved being kicked out, etc, etc due to our lack of believing. (Nothing about HQ's own lack of preparation or knowledge of the area!!) Our punishment: to be sent out again a month or so later, with the admonition that those who didn't get a class together needn't bother coming back as they would be thrown out anyway. No pressure, then. (All teams succeeded this time, in a different city.) Lightbearers! Ben, if you knew what you'd evoked, brought back, you'd've found a different word! But I'm willing to reclaim it and use it so that the ugly connotations get expunged.

UK maps have Gulf of Mexico (Gulf of America). If there's no good reason to change a name of centuries, why bother? Ah, says an orangeman, there is good reason. My ego! TBH if it were called Gulf of THE Americas, that would be understandable and maybe acceptable. The area is bounded by the continent of North America and the isthmus of Central America; and South America forms a southern boundary though arguably not exactly on the gult. The lengths of the Mexican border and the north American border appear to be about the same. But no. The orangeman thinks America means the whole of the continent of North America (sorry, Canadians). And sharing with other parts of "America" (ie, Central and South) just isn't in the playbook. It's likely the rest of the world with stick with Gulf of Mexico and the name will revert back in a few years' time.

Thanks, Allan. The current administration will be pleased. Really, it interprets itself, whatever one calls it.

For anyone considering getting involved with The Way, or if you are and you're having doubts about the group, consider this. It is information you may not have already: The current Way organization still lauds the corrupt VPW as their founding "man of God?" About the Founder - Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille That's enough for me to categorize the current organization as corrupt. Its roots in Wierwille are rotten. Their current "tree" cannot be any good no matter how "nice" any followers might be. Many of us had first-hand experience with the authoritarian, narcissistic, predatory, abusive plagiarist named Victor Paul Wierwille. We know that he stole most of his teachings that are found on tapes and in his books. Many of those are still used today, or tweaked, or slanted this way or that. We know the women he seduced and raped and silenced. We know the emotional abuse he inflicted on anyone who questioned him. We now understand how cults work and how they make extensive efforts to hide their corrupt histories like the one The Way has and cannot escape. We know that no matter how many fresh coats of paint you slather over filth, the filth is still underneath. To any followers of this organization: ask where the money goes. Ask where the power lies. Ask what happens if you leave the group. Ask what happens if you disagree with the ideology. Think for yourself.

Greasespot Cafe always used to come up first!! Looks like the cafe isn't so popular now. Just the old-timers left. If TWI is still going, there are still going to be people who need what the Cafe has to offer. Need to boost our profile a bit. How?

Just a little tune to sing to the kiddos in your life.

Back in business! Don't forget the Donate button. George

I don't know if they accept the science or not, but I suspect it doesn't matter to them either way because of the new earth. If anything, I could see them pointing to climate change as evidence of the coming eschaton. My fellowship ridiculed me for recycling because of the point above. My city no longer has a municipal recycling program because of ineptitude and corruption. Thankfully, a private upstart founded and operated by some young enterprising Christians has closed the void. Great guys doing great work. I wish I could afford to continue with their service, but it has gotten too expensive. On their cans and trucks is Psalm 24:1 (NIV) "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it." Pretty cool.

BTW, we've previously discussed and whether or not he was completely a fraud. That is, was he even a Christian at all, or was it all an act from the beginning? Was he a Christian once whose sins dominated his ministry, or was he a fraud from the beginning of his career? We know- by his own wording- that he chose ministry out of 3 possible careers, besides business or entertainment, and it was a toss-up. The only indications he was actually interested in God before his decision was 2 anecdotes- and vpw lied a lot. One anecdote was when he was a kid. A preacher showed up and preached at his local church. When the preacher asked him what he planned to be when he grew up, vpw supposedly said he wanted to be a man of God like the preacher. vpw followed this up with saying that he'd thought that he himself wasn't serious when he said it. "You know how kids talk." So, even he didn't believe that story. The other story was that he would shirk his chores as a kid and run off into the woods for hours. When there were no witnesses, he supposedly was off "preaching to the trees" and practicing how to preach. Naturally, nobody came forward and said they ever saw him do it, even once. Even more naturally, vpw- most obviously a big plagiarist- plagiarized that story as well as all the others he plagiarized. ORAL ROBERTS preached to the trees. He fought his own stage fright by going among trees and got used to addressing them as if they were the public, making altar calls and so on. Now, with the internet, that story is easy to find, and easy to trace to Oral Roberts. In vpw's lifetime, it was a LOT harder to catch him plagiarizing, without access to the internet. We know that his efforts in school leading up to the ministry were slack enough that his father had to get involved for vpw to be allowed to continue his education. By vpw's own admission, when he claimed to choose the ministry, his own father pointed out he lacked the discipline to be a decent farmer, and thought the ministry would require MORE dedication. When in divinity school, vpw chose the SOFTEST option available- preaching. He skipped studying church history, church languages, and so on. Later, he pretended to know both, but, as we've seen since. he was awful at both. His area of study was "homiletics"- or putting together sermons. How hard is that? Most of the posters here, if not all the posters here, have done it at some point, when in twi. We called them "teachings" but they were sermons by another name. vpw went to school for it, we did not. That's how soft an option that was. According to vpw himself, when he was first assigned a church to pastor, the local elders gave him almost no instructions. Rather than focus on what his congregation needed, he supposedly spent the entire first month focusing on going completely against what the local elders had said, and mouthed off to them when they confronted them on it. The story rings hollow and sounds made-up because they didn't have him removed and the church locals didn't stop attending when he spent his entire first month focusing ALL of his sermons on giving money to the church. However, as a lie, it shows his frame of mind- that he thinks that this is an appropriate lie to tell of his early days as a preacher. And he didn't spin this as "but I learned better and I thank God I'm not like that any more", he gave that as an example of his frame of mind, that he chafed at authority so much he would preach "up" if he was told to preach on "down,", and focusing all his sermons on talking people into giving him money was fine. Did you think it was a new thing with him that "Christians Should Be Prosperous" (why I should give twi my money) was mandatory reading for all pfal students, a book they paid for with their pfal tuition, a book they paid retail prices for, a book printed in-house for a LOT less than they paid? He got a job editing the sermons and articles of other Christians. Shortly thereafter, he got used to re-preaching whatever they'd worked at. In short, in his entire career, he plagiarized freely whenever and wherever he was able. He himself admitted that he's completed his entire divinity education, and spent his entire first year preaching BEFORE he ever believed the Bible was the Word of God. Is it even possible to believe a man could spend that much time as a GENUINE ministry student and preacher and not have that as A foundation for everything if not THE foundation for everything? By his own admission, TWICE in his first year as a preacher, he considered giving up as a minister. I'm supposed to believe he was a dedicated, GENUINE minister when he kept looking back and considering hanging it all up. What changed everything? All evidence points to him ripping off/plagiarizing BG Leonard's class, and JE Stiles book, both in the same year, and making those the 1.0 version and following of pfal. (The very first pfal class, "Receiving the Holy Spirit Today", was a ripoff clone of Leonard's class in EVERY detail, and remained so until he added Stiles' work, then Bullinger's work.) All evidence points to him being a fraud from the beginning. Every step was calculated as a business move, and none of it was "at the behest of God Almighty." When all of this came up, the counter-argument- the claim that vpw was always actually genuine, was entirely based on four things. A) Everything he taught was accurate, and of God, so he must have been connected to God to be that correct. vpw claimed to work by revelation, so he must have been working by revelation. As it turns out, the main reasons to believe he worked by revelation were his own claims he did so, and certainly all claims everything he taught was accurate run the same way- since we've examined some of his work and found errors all over it. Understandable as human error, but a problem if supposedly it was ALL by revelation, and so on. B) vpw claimed "the 1942 promise." vpw claimed God Almighty spoke to him, and that was the basis for his preaching, and of the material he presented later. It didn't take a lot of work to show that these claims didn't hold water. They fell apart easily when examined. Once again, vpw, a chronic liar, had lied to his congregation. C) I feel really blessed when I hear his teachings, and I felt really blessed when I was in twi, so vpw must have been genuine. Well, genuine Christians were in twi, and there was genuine, plagiarized material. I could see either blessing someone, even if vpw was a complete fraud. Furthermore, by vpw's own admission, feeling really blessed when he himself taught meant nothing- some people make similar claims about sitting on a Psychiatrist's couch (something he denigrated, probably because he was in competition with Psychiatrists who completed medical school.) So, those claims don't hold water, either. D) vpw sounded really sincere when he taught for decades, and supposedly nobody could sound sincere faking it for decades. YES THEY COULD. Now, none of US could do that, because we have a conscience. A true sociopath (like vpw) could brazenly go for decades, presenting things he didn't believe, to people who did believe them, in order to bring in the money. Certainly, any half-decent actor- or any half-skilled CON ARTIST- could do it for an entire sermon, given the right materials (like being able to plagiarize all the materials, the presentations, and so on, from real preachers.) So long as it was clear it was all for the stage, any decent actor could keep doing it- like Steve Martin performing in the movie "Leap of Faith". But his conscience would bother him if he pretended to be real while faking it and actually preaching at the pulpit. Heck, early acting exercises have actors practicing to speak convincingly while speaking literal gibberish. Any number of politicians have gone and given speeches they didn't really believe, and delivered them with gusto, as if they believed them. (No examples, please, politics is off-limits at the GSC.) I once saw comedian/actor John Candy deliver an example of that. He got onstage pretending to be a member of the Canadian Parliament. All of the MPs are supposed to be bilingual in English and French, but many don't know much French, and that was the basis for the joke. With lots of florid hand gestures and looking "genuine", he delivered a speech in French- in poorly-pronounced French. The subtitles clued English-speakers in on the jokes. "Good evening and welcome. I do not speak French. This speech was written for me by someone else, and I don't understand a word I am saying. I am a fat English pig." The entire time, that was delivered every bit as if he was giving a genuine speech. It's the example I know best, but it's common enough for actors. Faking it can be done if someone's conscience doesn't stop them. So, the only remaining objection doesn't hold water, either. Oh, there was also the "argument" that vpw was real because he spoke in tongues. No matter what twi said and says now, speaking in tongues can be faked, speaking in tongues with interpretation can be faked, word of prophecy can be faked. We had some heavy discussions as to whether or not they WERE ALL faked, or if they simply WERE faked LOTS OF TIMES. We know some were faked because some of us faked them at the time- all while trying to be genuine and meaning well, but faking it anyway because that's how we were taught. Now, I actually changed my position as a result of these discussions. I once believed it was all real, and now believe all the "speaking in tongues/interpretation" of twi and that style was and are all faked. (I'm convinced most of the "word of prophecy" was faked, but not all of it, I believe some of it was genuine.) Nobody is required to agree with me, but it's clear enough that SIT CAN be faked. So, the idea that vpw should be believed to be genuine because he was seen to SIT doesn't hold water either- it can be faked. Why do people believe it can't be faked? That's what we were taught by vpw- a man who lied to us all the time. Do you know the difference between "sincere" and "insincere"? vpw didn't. He said that the man who tries to sell you a toothbrush with only one bristle has to BE really sincere. UNTRUE. The man has to FAKE sincerity, he has to APPEAR sincere. Unless he is a complete moron, he would have to know such a product is defective and useless for its proclaimed purpose. He would be trying to con you, and APPEAR sincere while he FAKED his sincerity. Why would vpw be unable to understand such a simple distinction? It was part of his character. To him, there was no difference between BEING sincere- meaning it from the heart- and FAKING sincerity- looking like you meant it from the heart but faking all of it, making a performance with a genuine appearance. All evidence points to vpw having been a fraud from Day One. Oh, perhaps something, somewhere was genuine, but being 100% fake and being 95% fake pretty much look the same.

When in doubt, write: The Teacher Box 679 New Knockwurst, Ohio

Well... other than the "I'm right and they're wrong" aspect of your post I figure there could be some reasonable insight to looking at Jesus as fulfillment of OT law. I totally reject the paradigm of black/white, wrong/right interpretations of scripture. WE (humans/humanity) IMO are far too limited to be able to clearly define (most) interpretations of scripture as such. Stay curious and be willing to consider new ways to look at them. Just sayin'.