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Perhaps you are unfamiliar with trauma, PTSD or the sting of being ripped off. I was about to agree with you until you leaned on the cult trope of "crying about decades old offenses". These offenses include rape, sir. They include taking my teenage friends for abortions financed by a handful of money dipped from a free bucket of cash called "tithes". Perhaps giving your entire childhood to a movement that turned out to be a fraud run by grifters and perverts, stings a little. "Crying" isn.t weakness. It is a basic human emotions. If you don't cry while you're recovering from a literal attack on everything you are and everything you have, then you're the one with the problem. And by the way, I don't see anyone "crying" in the replies to your post. I see people who learned the hard way and are trying to warn you that these offenses, not all of which are "decades" old, hurt people. People still haven't recovered. Some people died, MAN. Do you have any idea the number of people who have died as a direct result of trauma from this cult? I have friends who died in accidents and were blamed for not being holy enough. It's gross. There is also no rule that says if you're "crying" about the way's literal crimes, that means that we aren't walking with Jesus. That is a fallacy. Both things can be true. You can walk with Jesus and be wise to The Way's bullcrap. And when we meet a person who says they went to HQ and everyone was so nice, we want you to know that trusting in this group will deceive you and you might not even know it's happening. If you want to stick your hand on the burner to see if fire is really hot, go ahead. You've been warned. But don't pretend that we are all crying. We were trying to warn you.

The foolish man built his house upon the sand and the rains came down and the floods came up... Glad they were nice to you. They are a poorly researched, mean spirited cult who worshipped a man and paid the price. They turned a blind eye to assaults of all kinds, theft, adultery, abuse of children and they separated families. This went on for decades, heck half a century plus. But I am glad they were nice to you.

For those who were told by a certain leader that they should follow him blindly: Facebook

It's been a year or more since last posting, I don't visit here very often. I hope everyone is well. I came looking around for news about TWI, I guess they are laying very low and not doing the crazy crap they used to when Weirwille and Martindale where running things. I'm pretty much over my whole cult experience. I'm still in the same apartment, with the same cat. Haven't drank alcohol in 5 years and that is going great. I'm on ozempic and jardiance which has helped me get down to a 5.5 A1C and lose 50 lbs. I hope everyone is doing well. Seth

And where the eff did they get "more than 900 people" to sign up as Way Ambassadors? Or is it just that they have 900 actual "members" and declared that wherever they are they are "ambassadors of TWI"? A mere technicality to be able to claim they have 900 ambassadors.

Almost thou persuadest me to be an atheist

WW kind of sideswiped a theory I've been working under for the past few years. I've brought it up before but it bears repeating. I have a suspicion (not enough evidence to call it a theory) that VPW was an unbeliever at heart. In tribute to Mike's thesis about how Wierwille hid great truths in plain sight and we all missed it: He declared himself to be all but atheist after studying the Bible. He no longer believed the words Holy or Bible on the cover (which is grammatically and rhetorically stupid, but you get his point). Being educated about the Bible, its history and authorship caused him to all but lose his faith. He said so! What if he never regained it? Bear with me: what if, from that moment forward, it was never about getting God and His Word right, but getting while the getting was good? He got money. He got adoration, He got fame (relative to most of us). He got attention. He got sex. He got power. How much of what he did makes more sense if he didn't believe a word of it but knew how to manipulate people to get what he wanted from them? Every time he discovered a niche, he exploited it. "This book is not some kind of Johnny come lately idea just to be iconoclastic..." [if someone has the correct wording, please let me know. I'll be happy to fix]. Oh it WASN'T? Because it was so shoddy I would think that you were selling a title rather than a book. You have a doctorate. You know how to present and defend a thesis (stop laughing, you in the back row. @#$%ing Snowball Pete). But he was an unbeliever. He KNEW the scholarship about the Bible that people like Bart Ehrman and Dan McClellan are popularizing today. He knew and he stopped believing. And THAT is when the bulls hit started. The funny thing is, it doesn't negate anything he taught. Just his motives. If McClellan and Ehrman are right, the first Christians really weren't Trinitarians. They weren't what Wierwille espoused either, though some were. Jehovah's Witnesses actually got it right, if McClellan and Ehrman are correct. But even that conclusion presupposes a unified message from the New Testament writers. And they weren't unified. Here's the problem Wierwille exposed that a lot of Christianity still gets wrong. There WAS NO FIRST CENTURY CHURCH. There were first century churches. Tons of them. And they disagreed with each other about EVERYTHING. Another topic for another time. Bottom line, I'm increasingly coming to believe that Wierwille's rise and ministry can best be explained by the hypothesis that he was an unbeliever from the moment before he became relevant.

For those of you asking. The Way is no longer supporting "tithing", in their STS they talk about "GIVE" and in the last fellowship I participated I was encourage to give freely. So they are not longer asking for 15% even for graduates of the advanced class ( I was) The Way has changed in the recent years? For sure, ¿ real changes? Not at all. TWI is bringing back the "good old years", uploading VPW teachings on their Youtube Channel, offering basically the same content. And hiding some of their core teachings in order to look more appealing to a younger crowd. Good people in TWI? For sure, you can find good people everywhere. You'll receive a lot of love in the beginning (Love-bombing uhh) ; as long as you don't commit to the ministry, they won't ask much of you. When you become deeply involved with TWI, the hell and abuse begin. And even though LCM's abusive tactics are no longer as prevalent, the emotional and psychological manipulation persists. I left TWI a little over two years ago. If you have any question about current TWI, just ask. Have a good day!

Glad you had a good experience Joyful. For many of us here, it would take a lot more than people being friendly and joyful to overcome the darkness the organization embraced for many years. If you go to ROA 2025, let us know what you think.

No, thanks.

I remember, back in the day, there was a twig leaders' syllabus that outlined acceptable behavior at large events, such as limb meetings, branch meetings and so forth. One of the admonitions listed was to "refrain from picking your own seat." My question is this: Are there currently any circumstances under which it's acceptable to pick your seat? Whose seat should you pick instead? (Yes, thank you, I've been told I'm a twisted individual.)

Freedom, a new life, a new perspective about God and the Bible An opportunity to love all people, to serve from something as basic as a warm greeting in the morning to saying thank you and please, not being a false servant in a group only to become a leader. A wonderful chance to get closer to my family, that family from which I distanced myself because they did not participate in the ministry.

TWI has changed a little bit during the recent years. But their change its only towards recover the "good old days" of VPW and PRE-LCM. VPW is still the main figure and the functioning of the organization and psychological abuse towards people persists. They're not willing to apologize to people; they only ask them to forgive and move forward "in love" . It's sad, but they demand greater maturity from the "average" believer than they do from the leader. Forgiving someone does not immediately mean restoring the relationship or psychological healing.

Thanks For the Letters Charlene, I'm new in the Forum though I lurked for years. And I left the Way 2 years ago.

????????

Oh, they're full of it, alright.

For many people, recovery is an on-going process. Think in terms of something like weight loss. You don't reach your target weight and suddenly abandon the effort. I think there's a bit of a parallel in the comparison, but maybe that's just me.

He was so much more than just a singer in a rock and roll band.

A few months ago, I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. (Early stage, no metastasis.) My boss pointed out that the radioactive tracer FDG (fluorodeoxyglucose) is used to detect cancer cells because glucose derivatives are consumed more rapidly by cancer cells than by healthy cells. He suggested a low-sugar diet. My GP suggested teh same thing, but to lower my triglycerides and A1C. When I asked my radiation oncologist about it, he said that some cancers might have a positive response to a low-carb diet, it doesn't really apply to prostate cancer. He pointed out that, just like other cells, when glucose is unavailable cancer cells will eat whatever nutrients ARE around. I will be undergoing radiation treatments shortly, and, ironically, in order to avoid gas production which could interfere with the targeting, I'm now essentially on a high-carb, low-fiber diet. Mashed potatoes, pancakes, and oatmeal are fine, salads and uncooked vegetables are not. Also, because the radiation may affect my urethra, acids and spicy items are no-nos (so no orange juice or coffee in the morning). About the only things that are both low-carb and low-gas are grilled meats and fish. One thing that really DOES promote prostate cancer, unfortunately, is testosterone, so I've been on a testosterone blocker for a couple of months now. My PSA has dropped to 1.1, which indicates that the cancer isn't growing. The bad news is that I'll have to remain on the blocker for up to two years after the radiation treatments. The good news is that my oncologist is quite sanguine about my chances for eliminating the cancer. George

Pro-choice? Hardly. It was never about a choice. Pro-abortion is a more mathematically accurate and scientifically precise description. Abortion was merely a rational and practical method deployed to mitigate risk of reputational and financial loss.

Nice to see you, Belle. It's been a while.

I don't know about TWI being Christian Nationalist, but here's my take. A thing about TWI was that mostly they simply didn't regard others as having a valid viewpoint. Our way or the highway. So little regard for others that they didn't even notice them. There was a big oval table in the auditorium. Inlaid countries of the world. Lovely. Where was New Zealand? And what other countries were missing? Other countries have different cultural traditions, including Christian traditions. But no. You will do it our way. Even if it was culturally offensive or ineffective. Disclaimer on this : in Christian Etiquette, Mrs Allen taught how Americans should eat, how to handle a knife and fork, etc. She made the point that this was American etiquette and urged people from other countries to follow their style of eating. Good - because in my countries, eating American-style is poor manners and only used by children learning to eat properly!! Might be used casually but never in "polite society." I have lived in two other countries for very long periods and visited many others, and I have a number of friends who have been missionaries in other countries. American ways are often viewed with suspicion. Solutions to problems can be imposed, rather than reached in consensus with locals. (As an aside: You only have to look at the world situation now to see how "solutions" are trying to be imposed without taking into account the views of others involved - but no more of this, least it be deemed "political.") But I don't know if this was just TWI, or if it was American culture generally, that thought the American way was the only way worthy of living. I doubt that any such culture would have been recognised in the middle east, where Christianity was born. It certainly isn't in line with Jesus's teachings. Certainly TWI dismissed other Christian traditions without considering the merits thereof, any spiritual help those traditions gave to others, and neither did they consider whether their own "brand" was really helpful to people from any cultural background. USA is such a huge country with so much diversity. One size does not fit all. Well. That's a cult for you.

I was going out WOW and on our way to Amarillo I flipped into a manic psychotic episode and they put me on a bus. I got off the bus in Oklahoma City and was acting crazy and the police picked me up and put me in jail. A warden took it upon herself to look into my purse and fortunately my parents’ address and phone number were in it. (They had moved) and she contacted my dad who flew to OKC and took me home. Without these “fortunate” occurrences God only knows what would have become of me. It’s only because God took care of me not TWI. By the way, I didn’t really want to go WOW in the first place but was pressured into it by my twig leader. I’m bipolar but was undiagnosed at the time.

If anyone wants to read my first-hand account of being on staff at HQ and talking with John right after he was fired, it's in Undertow, Chapter 54: Clampdown. I got his permission to use his real name in my book.

I have a first hand recollection of him teaching that masturbation was the original sin. That's not an event you casually forget.

This is getting obnoxious

That's really big brush you're painting with there.

Another example of why literal, word-for-word translations are not helpful and lead to confusion.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying this is not the place to discuss it.

Differences of opinion! Differences of opinion are allowed at the GSC! Politics are verboten. Anyone who takes a position that "vpw was the greatest man of God since the apostle Paul" will find they've taken a VERY unpopular stance and will be debated. But they will be allowed to post- as will everyone who disagrees with them. Differences of opinion, agreeing to disagree, and independent thought are not allowed at twi, and never were. So, people used to twi and ex-twi ONLY may find freedom to think unsettling. But it's an asset.

I wish you could see it in the aboriginal. It's a dandy!

It's taken me about 25-30 years to heal from the TWI experience too. But happily not that long to buy my house. I messed around for a decade, afraid to make any decisions of any kind. Finding this place helped me heal a lot. But nothing disappeared instantly. I bought my house with much trepidation in 2007. I made overpayments every year when I could. I think my 25 year mortgage ran originally till I was 74, but it has been repaid (YIPPEE) for several years now, thanks to very diligent efforts on my part. It was either pay off the house, or pay into a pension scheme, not enough for both. I am entitled to get state pension (not a lot) but the thought of a mortgage as a pensioner was horrible. I have deferred claiming my pension because for every 9 weeks that I defer, I get a small uplift in the amount received. And, praise the Lord, he had a plan for me to get a pension anyway. I am getting married soon and my husband has a big pension and on his decease I will get half his amount, which, together with my state pension, will be more than I have ever earned in my life! As WordWolf mentioned earlier, we have a variety of beliefs here. I'm in the "God is good" category. I go to a great church which is very involved with the community around it. I do not subscribe to the standard beliefs of my church (am still non-trini) and I would go elsewhere if I felt the church was "off" in its treatment of parishioners. Well, no, first I would have a "what's going on?" session with any leadership that seemed off, and would escalate that if necessary. The days of being beaten down by nasties like TWI leadership are long gone. But so far, nothing has raised any red flags, nor seems likely to.

No one is being combative with you. You asked questions and answers were provided. You've accused people, at least implicitly, of crying and not moving on. I tried to help you understand that your dismissiveness is not merely a childish cop out, it's a form of gaslighting. Perhaps my showing you this caused you discomfort, causing you to falsely accuse me of trying to start a forbidden topic while blaming you for it. After admittIng the possibility of my own failure at communicating, I offered a different illustration. Now you 're gaslighting again accusing people of being combative. This is how you react when you are challenged and corrected? It's a discussion. You aren't the only one allowed to take a passionate position for or against an idea.

It's too early for me to share the personal and painful details of my life. I can tell you that with the support of God , my family, a psychiatrist, and a psychologist, I've been able to move forward. Although I don't resent TWI, I wouldn't recommend anyone attend TWI unless it's ONLY to receive information about Romans 10:9 and then leave in peace. Where do I start? Lies about the ministry's origin, lies about the content they teach, plagiarism, abuse. Leaders believe they are chosen by God because of VPW's misuse of Romans 13, and those leaders believe that since they are called by God, they can do whatever they please. If you are with the ministry, they will be with you; if you walk away from the ministry, all those friends.. will stop talking to you. They use people, they don't love them. They "research" the WORD OF God only to the extent that it doesn't contradict VPW. (CULT-RED FLAG) They have abused thousands of people around the world, and now that Martindale and Rivenbark are gone... they go around telling people to "forgive" and move forward with the "Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation." It's not an honest organization that publicly and openly acknowledges mistakes; they only do so privately (at some point the will do) TIME TO COME HOME uhh? They don't teach people not to harm; They don't teach people not to harm; they demand that victims forgive abusers, and they keep the abusers in power. If you want details, send me a PM. God Bless U, PD: Vern seems like a good man, with good intentions. But he doesn't have the strength to weed out TWI's sectarian practices. (I met him 3 times)

“The Word, the Word, and nothing but the Word.” -vpw Nothing. But. The Word. NOTHING. So, what is the Word? It’s whatever victor paul wierwille says it is. I was “taught” victor did all the “research” so I wouldn’t have to - oh, how he toiled 18hrs/day for years. Such selfless sacrifice on his part, I was “taught.” I should be so grateful. Oldies is right. It’s like any other religion. (TWI is indeed religion, no matter what they claim.) They are dogmatic, yet call themselves a “research ministry.” This is one of many contradictions illustrating their mathematic inexactness and scientific imprecision. No doubt they are nice. Super nice, I bet. Friendly, I’m sure. Be friends. Go to their church (yes, it’s a church), fellowship with them. Whatever. If anyone in TWI came on this board wanting to talk, I suspect they would be welcome. Wierwille apologists have always been welcome and free to post inexhaustible platitudes. Some here might have questions for them. I know I do.

In my opinion, The Way is not a reformation of the church, first century or otherwise. It's the remnants of a devious MLM scam, built on lies and plagiarism. I'm not bitter, just stating the factual reality. Not only is the vast majority of the material content plagiarized, it's filled with inaccurate assertions, such as "the four crucified", the so-called "law of believing", roosters that crowed differently 2,000 years ago, special bar mitzvas for illegitimate boys, inerrancy of scripture, bogus tithing requirements and on and on and on. The Way is and was a lot of things. A reformation of the church is not one of them.

I got very caught up with the Bickle sexual abuse scandal and the IHOPKC coverup and how similar it was to weirwille's and twi's. What did you know about the latter and what is twi saying about it now? There's no way I respect twi today for their lies and coverup for this man. Do they still call him "the man of God for our day and time" or just their "father in the word?"

Good for you.Thanks to this ole sight and lots of great people,I feel it would be a step backard into their religion.

I don't know anything about narcissistic children, but I know something about the full blown disorder (NPD) in adults. Adults that develop this disorder usually suffered trauma/abuse as children. This abuse is usually by a parent who is an NPD/sociopath themself. Often the abuse is severe neglect or abandonment. It can even be overvaluing the child. (This may seem counterintuitive, but it's the academic term for "spoiled rotten.") The NPD seeks to destroy that which they did not experience. A form of revenge? Envy? I don't know why exactly, but narcissists are attracted to good people who are strong, honest, kind, generous, empathetic, loved and authentic. They didn't have any of that as children. NPDs are incapable of honestly expressing and living those qualities. Others who exemplify and embody those qualities are targeted. And they are then systematically destroyed. Self esteem isn't the primary reason. Empathy is a significant factor.

I like Waysider's comment about recovery being an on-going process. I has been for me. While I was writing Undertow, soooo many years after my direct expereinces in TWI, I was still coming to realizations. While the Way organization may be a shadow of its former self, as Wordwolf described it, I think it appears that way because the number of active followers is lower than in its heyday of the 1980s, for instance. Since Undertow came out, I've gotten numerous emails from children and grandchildren of my former Way peers. These descendents read Undertow and are surprised to see how abuse they suffered actually began with VPW himself. Many of my former peers won't admit that, since they still believe he was the man of God. It's sick. So abuse in one form or another has filtered down in their lives from their parents giving them warped doctrines and confusing messages, such as "you're sick because you don't believe strongly enough." The fallout from the "early days in TWI" has domino effects that take time and education to rectify. The thousands of posts here on GSC are evidence of that.

What Do You Know About Cults? What is a cult? “An ideological organization held together by charismatic relationships and demanding total commitment.” ~ Benjamin Zablocki, PhD, “Cults: Theory and Treatment Issues.” http://www.icsahome.com/articles/cultspsymanipsociety-langone How do cults recruit? Promises and pressure What are some warning signs? Charismatic, authoritarian, self-proclaimed leader with no check on power Deceptive recruiting (often sincere) Critical inquiry viewed as “persecution” Organized psychological manipulation Emotional, sexual, and financial exploitation Inner circle of loyal followers with secret beliefs/behavior No meaningful economic transparency How do cults undermine freedom? Demand loyalty to cult leader/ideology Disallow freedom of religion (theirs is the only right one) Intimidate to prevent free thought Control personal goals Destabilize freedom of association How can we respond to recruiters? ABCD A - Always research group B - Be firm when refusing recruitment C - Challenge appealing promises D - Don’t tolerate deception, even from a friend Warning: An imbalance of power is an opportunity for abuse. Undertow: My Escape from the Fundamentalism and Cult Control of The Way International By Charlene L. Edge. Memoir. Paperback and eBook at major booksellers & indie bookstores “… A frank, in-depth account of one woman’s struggles in a controlling organization.” — Kirkus Reviews Gold medal winner - Florida Authors and Publishers Association, 2017 On Book Riot’s list of “100 Must-Read Books About Life in Cults and Oppressive Religious Sects” What it’s about: After a family tragedy struck, teenaged Charlene rejected Catholicism, family, and friends to join what became one of the largest fundamentalist cults in America: The Way International led by Victor Paul Wierwille. After promotion to the inner circle of biblical researchers, Charlene discovered secrets: Wierwille’s plagiarism, misuse of Scripture, and sex abuse. Amid chaos at The Way’s headquarters, Charlene escaped. Why Undertow matters: Each year about 50,000 to 100,000 people enter or leave high-control groups called “cults” (data: The International Cultic Studies Association). Movies like Going Clear and The Path have captured the nation’s attention. Undertow is a personal story about cult recruitment and fear-based manipulation by an authoritarian, charismatic leader. The fundamentalist mindset, espousing certainty about God and the meaning of the Bible, causes untold divisions in families and communities. Undertow shows this pain from an insider’s perspective and that healing is possible. A taste of Undertow: “I gulped down Doug’s words without doing any critical thinking, not pressing him to prove what he said. He was so sincere that I clung to his assertions, like ‘believing equals receiving,’ as if they were heaven-sent.” CHARLENE L. EDGE spent 17 years in The Way (1970–1987). Later she earned a B.A. in English from Rollins College and worked for more than a decade as writer in the software industry. She is a published poet and essayist and a member of the Florida Writers Association, the Authors Guild, and the International Cultic Studies Association. She lives in Florida with her husband, Dr. Hoyt L. Edge. She blogs at: http://charleneedge.com

UK maps have Gulf of Mexico (Gulf of America). If there's no good reason to change a name of centuries, why bother? Ah, says an orangeman, there is good reason. My ego! TBH if it were called Gulf of THE Americas, that would be understandable and maybe acceptable. The area is bounded by the continent of North America and the isthmus of Central America; and South America forms a southern boundary though arguably not exactly on the gult. The lengths of the Mexican border and the north American border appear to be about the same. But no. The orangeman thinks America means the whole of the continent of North America (sorry, Canadians). And sharing with other parts of "America" (ie, Central and South) just isn't in the playbook. It's likely the rest of the world with stick with Gulf of Mexico and the name will revert back in a few years' time.

Thanks, Allan. The current administration will be pleased. Really, it interprets itself, whatever one calls it.

I totally forgot this was here. I think there are a bunch of things that need to be revisited in light of dwindling participation. I want to find some way to preserve our testimonies and reconsiderations of what The Way taught. No solid answers here. We'll figure something out.

For anyone considering getting involved with The Way, or if you are and you're having doubts about the group, consider this. It is information you may not have already: The current Way organization still lauds the corrupt VPW as their founding "man of God?" About the Founder - Dr. Victor Paul Wierwille That's enough for me to categorize the current organization as corrupt. Its roots in Wierwille are rotten. Their current "tree" cannot be any good no matter how "nice" any followers might be. Many of us had first-hand experience with the authoritarian, narcissistic, predatory, abusive plagiarist named Victor Paul Wierwille. We know that he stole most of his teachings that are found on tapes and in his books. Many of those are still used today, or tweaked, or slanted this way or that. We know the women he seduced and raped and silenced. We know the emotional abuse he inflicted on anyone who questioned him. We now understand how cults work and how they make extensive efforts to hide their corrupt histories like the one The Way has and cannot escape. We know that no matter how many fresh coats of paint you slather over filth, the filth is still underneath. To any followers of this organization: ask where the money goes. Ask where the power lies. Ask what happens if you leave the group. Ask what happens if you disagree with the ideology. Think for yourself.

https://www.cultfacts.com/cults/the-way-international First 2 paragraphs are much as twi might describe itself. Third paragraph: They also adopted a hierarchical educational structure which many say is used to exercise excessive control over its members. "The Foundational Class on Power for Abundant Living," serves as an entry point into a system that encourages participants to climb a ladder of increasing commitment and involvement, a structure often compared to pyramid schemes [not unlike Scientology]. Members who commit to the Way have reported severe sleep deprivation, isolation from families, and other forms of control from church leaders, which have led them to drop out of school, quit taking medicine, or prepare for a prophesized nuclear holocaust. Some of their worst abuses started to come to light after former members launched lawsuits against the organization. In addition to concerns about psychological manipulation and financial control, former members testified about a widespread coordination of up to fifty leaders[aka conspiracy] to assist in and coverup the sexual abuse of female members at the hands of the presidents and high-ranking leaders. Court documents and media sources reported that girls as young as thirteen are shown pornography and trained in how to provide sexual gratification while being taught that a woman's purpose is to give sexual pleasure to men. Victims revealed how leaders used the guilt of disobeying God and fears of death to coerce them into submission. Meanwhile other trusted leaders told them how privileged they were to be able to satisfy such great men of God. At it's peak, The Way was considered the second largest cult in America, with up to 40,000 members. While membership declined significantly in the 1990s, the organization still exists today, remaining curiously quiet about their abusive history.

Greasespot Cafe always used to come up first!! Looks like the cafe isn't so popular now. Just the old-timers left. If TWI is still going, there are still going to be people who need what the Cafe has to offer. Need to boost our profile a bit. How?

So glad to now be after having been unburdened from what has been....

Thanks for this, Rocky. As for tactics TWI used in the past to find prospects. In the 1970s, one big time leader I won't name, told us to comb throught the obituaries to find the names of families who'd lost loved ones so we could approach them, offer "comfort," and try to sign them up for the PFAL class. I found that piece of advice so revolting I never did it. At least I had some good sense tucked in my mind somewhere back then ...