Is it possible that the snowstorm really did happen and that God really did speak to VPW and that God really did did teach VPW the word of God like it had not been known since the First Century?
Count me in for a "yes" here, Goey.
The other items looked too negative for me to ponder much... boring too.
I have too often found that whenever I've fallen into focusing on negative items like the ones you listed, no spiritual benefit results, just me getting negative. I've learned to avoid that kind of thinking as much as possible.
I've learned to avoid that kind of thinking as much as possible.
I'm afraid you've avoided more than JUST "that" kind of thinking Mike.
oh and goey.. to answer your question(s)... YES... it is possible... but that means that there are a whole lot of story makers and liars around who JUST happen to have the same kind of stories and personal experiences to tell about that same person. What are the chances?
Well Goey, why stop at VPW? Maybe Loy was falsely accused and drummed out while he was the true MOGFOT. Is that possible? How about Chris Geer? Heir appearant to the throne (in his own eyes). Maybe he was to be the true MOGFOT. And Rosie? What about her? Maybe there's some mysterious reason why God made her the WOGFOT? If this is really the best God can do, I think I'll go it alone for awhile.
That is hardly in the "same vein". But you made your point.
Many of us having never seen or experienced the deeds of VPW accept that they happen based upon the preponderance of evidence - upon the testimony others.
Is this good enough? Are these witnesses credible?
Many people "came to God" (whatever that means) through TWI and the teachings of VPW.
From a purely Christian prospective how could it be possible for VPW to have done such evil things and still bring people to God?
Is is possible that those who deny that VPW did such things have their heads burried in the sand and therefore refuse to even weigh the evidence against him? That they hold VPW in such high esteem for his teaching of "the word" that they refuse to look at the other stuff. Many of these accuse the others of being ministers of darkness and liars with an axe to grind. I was recently accused of this.
Certainly there are enough witnesses to support the charges against VPW. However, there were false witnesses against Jesus. (Someones else's analogy, not mine. I am not putting VPW in the same class as Jesus Chrtist). Are witnesses alone therefore good enough?
The Bible shows by example and by warning that there will be false witnesses against men and women of God. So wouldn't it be a natural and expected response for those who believe VPW to have been a true MOG to also believe the witnesses to liars? Can we fault them?
Let's assume for a moment that the charges against VPW are true. What is the benefit of continuing to bring them up 20 years after his death? Does this truly help anyone? Is this "speaking evil" ?
Does the Bible suggest that it is "speaking evil" to reveal and oppose the "sins" of a respected leader of religion? Should we shut up and let it ride so as not to speak evil? Or is this a convenient interpretation of scipture to allow Christian leaders to keep their status and power regardless of their behavior?
Now let's assume for a moment that the charges against VPW are way overblown. Yeah maybe he had a few affairs but the women were willing. Yeah, he smoked his Kools and maybe drank his liquor to excess. And maybe he was a bit mean at times, but arent we all? But look at all the folks that got saved and were delivered as a result of VPW's ministry.
In this scenario by accepting what the witnesses have said as true and repeating it to others would we be ministers of darkness and therefore separated from God? Do we become false witnesses ourselves which is an abomination to God and a deady sin ?
Are we willing to accept the consequences if we are wrong about VPW?
Let's assume for a moment that the charges against VPW are true. What is the benefit of continuing to bring them up 20 years after his death? Does this truly help anyone? Is this "speaking evil" ?
Speaking only for myself, I have to say it has helped me to realize I no longer have to feel guilty about leaving the "one true household" when, in fact, all I did was sever my ties with a cult.
Is it possible?
If God is real and he does give revelation, is it possible that He told someone that all was not right and they should "bail out"?
If that person failed to act on their revelation or acted but was overruled, is it possible that person will change their perception of the revelation given? Is it possible it could help to ease a sense of guilt for that person?
Is is possible that those who have alleged his alcoholism, meanness, vindictiveness, plaigerism, money mongering, womanizing, etc are also liars with an axe to grind?
Well....I SAW his meanness....and his degradation of women......and his arrogance......and his callous indifference to many corps........and his outbursts of anger......and his drambuie drinking.
An axe to grind? Naw, just speaking up here at GS and tired of putting the guy on a pedestal.
His actions did NOT align with I Timothy 3......veepee was unfit to lead in the church.
Goey-In answer to your question. "NO", Notta, not a chance in hell.
IF you must take the time to read many of the threads here and you will realize that there are many here including myself who knew the man personally. He looked great on camera but behind the scenes he was a different person. Money, power, lust, greed were his motives. Look how the ministry continued, many leaders followed his lead. Loy for example (the apple doesn't fall far from the tree).
Let's assume for a moment that the charges against VPW are true. What is the benefit of continuing to bring them up 20 years after his death? Does this truly help anyone? Is this "speaking evil" ?
You ask this question with Vic as the focus point. But I think that's backwards. To my way of thinking this isn't about what VP did 20+ years ago (his personal sins), it is about what he STARTED. Because it didn't stop with him. He taught others (lots of others) to follow in his footsteps, and the errors and hurt continue to this day. Ask anyone who has just left twi...
So, let's rephrase the question: The truth will set you free. But the truth is that you put your trust in someone who took advantage of you. Are you sinning by discussing this person's sins against you and others on an open forum?
To which, I reply: Isn't the Bible full of examples detailing the acts of wicked and deceived people, to help us learn, to help others not make the same mistakes? How is what we are doing here any different? Discussing what VP and his disciples did and continue to do isn't about THEM, it is about US. --- Why did we listen? Why did we believe? Why did we not question? Why did we eventually leave? Where do we go from here? What about their examples was positive? What was negative? --- It's about self-discovery and healing. That is the bulk of what happens here.
Are there those who use this site to wallow in self-pity and never move on? Sure. Are there people who read the Bible and use it for wrong purposes? Sure. Does that mis-use mean we should void the content altogether? I don't think so.
I may have not seen the REAL abuse, but I did see when herr vicmeister got "ugly" with people over a pretty insignificant matter..
the poor camera guy in the "new advanced class".. he ripped him up and down..
I remember a visit at "headquarters" once.. I saw the corps working their royal a**es off.. and one of the guys had a radio.. the mogster started a tirade over the radio, "CMON.. YOUR'E CORPS.. GET WITH IT.. etc, etc.. if this is the best you can do, I'll have to just send you all home.."
SOB didn't have a clue what they were doing..
I heard him two or three rooms away, tearing into some limb leader because the building he scheduled for his mogness just happened to have one of the psychic convention meeting scheduled on the other side of the building..
Like.. what's the guy gonna do? Ask the convention center guy, "hey, are you gonna have debils in meeting rooms here next year when we're having our meeting?"
Well.. he just stood there and took it..
The few incidents when I was even close by, when he wasn't teaching, he didn't seem to be very pleasant.
Then there's the Living Bible incident.
I don't think I've ever seen a "preacher" throw a bible before, while he was cursing and spitting..
But who knows, maybe he was a nice guy..
I dunno. Capone could be a nice guy.. when it was to his advantage..
Isn't the Bible full of examples detailing the acts of wicked and deceived people, to help us learn, to help others not make the same mistakes? How is what we are doing here any different?
My very sentiments. If it is speaking evil to tell the truth about VPW/TWI, then Paul was a big evil speaker when he spoke against the legalists and Jesus was an evil speaker when he exposed the Pharisees for the phoney hipocrites that they were.
The "evil speaking" counter accusation of the VPW defenders is a misuse of scripture IMO. Any so-called minister of God who unrepentantly abuses those he claims to lead and nurture needs to be exposed for obvious reasons. Side note: The fact that a person is in a position of authority in a religious organization does not necessarily mean that God put him/her there or that they are true ministers at all.
It is interesting that those who accuse me of walking in darkness because I have "spoken evil" of VPW have no problem "speaking evil" of people like John Hagee, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyers, Bennie Hinn and others, saying they are phoney money mongers. While it could be true, what is the difference?
Does "thinketh no evil" mean that when a man or woman's actions are blatently contrary to God's Word, (adultry, theft, unkindness, greed, pride, etc) that we should simply ignore these things and cast them out of our minds? Especially if it is in regards to our leaders or those who may have taught us "the Word"?
It is interesting that many of the people that use this "think no evil" doctrine are those who would set themsleves up as spiritual leaders themsleves. Go figure ...
The other items looked too negative for me to ponder much... boring too.
I have too often found that whenever I've fallen into focusing on negative items like the ones you listed, no spiritual benefit results, just me getting negative. I've learned to avoid that kind of thinking as much as possible.
That's just me. :)
So are you saying that if you had a daughter, sister, or wife who came to you heartbroken because VPW (or anyone else) did these things to them, you would consider it boring and too negative? And would you dismiss it?
I'd like to be the first to take your blinders off, and take away that broom so you can't sweep anymore dirt under the carpet.
It is possible that Samuel was a great a prophet as he was even though it was Eli that raised him?
And is it possible that David, the man after God's own heart, could go behind his back and have a man killed just so he could steal his wife?
Is it possible?! Did it happen?! I have no doubts God can and does work in many evil situation.. Samuel was God's man for the time, and despite being raised by Eli whose own sons were so evil, God intervened and kept Samuel safe. And David.. Well, he at least repented from his mistake.. We're human, and we all make mistakes. Some very big.. The question is not, did they make them.. The question is were they man enough to own up to the mistake and try and make things for the better?
I'd say VIC never did such a thing.. Nor has Loy..
If it is speaking evil to tell the truth about VPW/TWI, then Paul was a big evil speaker when he spoke against the legalists and Jesus was an evil speaker when he exposed the Pharisees for the phoney hipocrites that they were.
Apples and oranges. Jesus and Paul were accountable for what they said, i.e., you knew it was them making the statements. You can look in their eyes, see them and even talk back. Many times, it was up close and personal. There was a genuine, human, in your face give and take.
There's something anticeptic and cruel about finger pointing others' sins anonymously behind a computer. Yes I do characterize that as evil and hateful sometimes. Sometimes I feel like the biggest finger pointers should have a website dedicated to THEIR sins and see how they cope.
Thank God Wierwille and TWI were around to reach me and thousands of folks with the Word of God. Heck, I'm still glad twi and the offshoots are still around... they can help folks who need help.
BTW I feel the same way about the RC church, despite their past atrocities.
God will deal with VPW sins; "vengence is mine, I will repay" saith the Lord.
My very sentiments. If it is speaking evil to tell the truth about VPW/TWI, then Paul was a big evil speaker when he spoke against the legalists and Jesus was an evil speaker when he exposed the Pharisees for the phoney hipocrites that they were.
Goey, it's so good to "see" you again! :)
To your point, if the Bible is indeed the word of God then God is the ultimate evil speaker since He had all that stuff recorded and preserved for eternity.
Apples and oranges. Jesus and Paul were accountable for what they said, i.e., you knew it was them making the statements. You can look in their eyes, see them and even talk back. Many times, it was up close and personal. There was a genuine, human, in your face give and take.
There's something anticeptic and cruel about finger pointing others' sins anonymously behind a computer. Yes I do characterize that as evil and hateful sometimes. Sometimes I feel like the biggest finger pointers should have a website dedicated to THEIR sins and see how they cope.
Apples and organges ? I don't think so
I have never looked in either Paul's or Jesus' eyes to know if they were telling the truth. The information comes from the pages of an ancient book that many of us hold to be a reliable witness. So we believe.
Forget VPW for now. Is it more more cruel to expose the damaging behavior of a religious leader, - or to allow it to continue because that leader may have helped me at one point -- to sweep it under a rug, deny it, justify it while allowing the harm to continue against others? The Catholic church may be a good example of this in regards to a few priests.
Now in regards to VPW -- Does maintaing his legacy as a good bible teacher preclude the telling of the whole story, warts and all? Who is harmed by telling the whole story? Who may be harmed by not telling it? Who can benefit either way?
Question: Why didn't more people come forward when VPW was alive? A serious question that requires serious and honest answers. Were that many people afraid to speak out, to confront? Did VPW have that much power over people or did we simply allow him that power... to the point that many of us turned a blind eye and didn't care who was harmed as long it wasn't us?
I know of quite a few people that stayed with TWI/VPW/LCM and saw the bad stuff going on, maybe even participated in it, but only spoke out after the bad things happend to them. Is this human nature or something more?
As for me, I wouldn't like a Website dedicated to my sins. But then again, I was not a MOG with a following of tens of thousands of trusting people looking up to me as spiritual giant. And I don't have a trail of disillusioned or guilt ridden folks in the path of my alleged "sins". And I don't have a remnant of dedicated followers 20+ years after my death that still believe that I hung the spirtual moon.
I don't think that this Website or any other is DEDICATED to VPW "sins". It is about making sense of our TWI experience. It is therefore necessary, as a part of that process of making sense, to adresss and discuss the accusations against VPW.
There's something anticeptic and cruel about finger pointing others' sins anonymously behind a computer.
Okay, Oldies, let's start with you. Stop being anonymous, post your own photo, and give your real name. You're an anonymous finger pointer at plenty of other people on these boards.
Apples and oranges. Jesus and Paul were accountable for what they said, i.e., you knew it was them making the statements. You can look in their eyes, see them and even talk back. Many times, it was up close and personal. There was a genuine, human, in your face give and take.
There's something anticeptic and cruel about finger pointing others' sins anonymously behind a computer. Yes I do characterize that as evil and hateful sometimes. Sometimes I feel like the biggest finger pointers should have a website dedicated to THEIR sins and see how they cope.
Obviously nobody can confront VPW to his face. But one person here at GSC tried, and she wasn't anonymous. She got no result from VPW. He didn't want to address it. Maybe it was too negative for him??? He hid behind his curtain of lies to avoid answering questions he should have answered.
I have a friend who talked to LCM face-to-face. He denies doing anything wrong because he thinks what he did was acceptable because VPW sanctioned it.
Let's be real about what happened. If it didn't happen to you, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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Mike
Count me in for a "yes" here, Goey.
The other items looked too negative for me to ponder much... boring too.
I have too often found that whenever I've fallen into focusing on negative items like the ones you listed, no spiritual benefit results, just me getting negative. I've learned to avoid that kind of thinking as much as possible.
That's just me. :)
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A la prochaine
I'm afraid you've avoided more than JUST "that" kind of thinking Mike.
oh and goey.. to answer your question(s)... YES... it is possible... but that means that there are a whole lot of story makers and liars around who JUST happen to have the same kind of stories and personal experiences to tell about that same person. What are the chances?
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Jim
Well Goey, why stop at VPW? Maybe Loy was falsely accused and drummed out while he was the true MOGFOT. Is that possible? How about Chris Geer? Heir appearant to the throne (in his own eyes). Maybe he was to be the true MOGFOT. And Rosie? What about her? Maybe there's some mysterious reason why God made her the WOGFOT? If this is really the best God can do, I think I'll go it alone for awhile.
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dmiller
Sure -- It's possible, --- but HIGHLY UNLIKELY!! ;)
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GarthP2000
In the same vein of Goey's original post. ...
... Is it possible that the earth is flat?
Is it possible that the moon is made of green cheese?
Is it possible that George W. Bush---oops! I fergot. This isn't Politicks N' Tacks. :D
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Goey
Garth,
That is hardly in the "same vein". But you made your point.
Many of us having never seen or experienced the deeds of VPW accept that they happen based upon the preponderance of evidence - upon the testimony others.
Is this good enough? Are these witnesses credible?
Many people "came to God" (whatever that means) through TWI and the teachings of VPW.
From a purely Christian prospective how could it be possible for VPW to have done such evil things and still bring people to God?
Is is possible that those who deny that VPW did such things have their heads burried in the sand and therefore refuse to even weigh the evidence against him? That they hold VPW in such high esteem for his teaching of "the word" that they refuse to look at the other stuff. Many of these accuse the others of being ministers of darkness and liars with an axe to grind. I was recently accused of this.
Certainly there are enough witnesses to support the charges against VPW. However, there were false witnesses against Jesus. (Someones else's analogy, not mine. I am not putting VPW in the same class as Jesus Chrtist). Are witnesses alone therefore good enough?
The Bible shows by example and by warning that there will be false witnesses against men and women of God. So wouldn't it be a natural and expected response for those who believe VPW to have been a true MOG to also believe the witnesses to liars? Can we fault them?
Let's assume for a moment that the charges against VPW are true. What is the benefit of continuing to bring them up 20 years after his death? Does this truly help anyone? Is this "speaking evil" ?
Does the Bible suggest that it is "speaking evil" to reveal and oppose the "sins" of a respected leader of religion? Should we shut up and let it ride so as not to speak evil? Or is this a convenient interpretation of scipture to allow Christian leaders to keep their status and power regardless of their behavior?
Now let's assume for a moment that the charges against VPW are way overblown. Yeah maybe he had a few affairs but the women were willing. Yeah, he smoked his Kools and maybe drank his liquor to excess. And maybe he was a bit mean at times, but arent we all? But look at all the folks that got saved and were delivered as a result of VPW's ministry.
In this scenario by accepting what the witnesses have said as true and repeating it to others would we be ministers of darkness and therefore separated from God? Do we become false witnesses ourselves which is an abomination to God and a deady sin ?
Are we willing to accept the consequences if we are wrong about VPW?
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waysider
Speaking only for myself, I have to say it has helped me to realize I no longer have to feel guilty about leaving the "one true household" when, in fact, all I did was sever my ties with a cult.
Is it possible?
If God is real and he does give revelation, is it possible that He told someone that all was not right and they should "bail out"?
If that person failed to act on their revelation or acted but was overruled, is it possible that person will change their perception of the revelation given? Is it possible it could help to ease a sense of guilt for that person?
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cman
getting saved is not a result of anyone's ministry
the Lord saves not anyone else's work
and the Lord does work through people but when the time comes
it's you and the Lord, regardless of the people
there is a work and labor of love to be selfless
this was not present in 'the way'
though a few did know love
they were eliminated systematically under vpw and lcm
if not directly then through it's structure and implantation
it is possible that it's quite more real to the witnesses accounts then one could imagine
but that is also possible
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skyrider
Well....I SAW his meanness....and his degradation of women......and his arrogance......and his callous indifference to many corps........and his outbursts of anger......and his drambuie drinking.
An axe to grind? Naw, just speaking up here at GS and tired of putting the guy on a pedestal.
His actions did NOT align with I Timothy 3......veepee was unfit to lead in the church.
<_<
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polar bear
Goey-In answer to your question. "NO", Notta, not a chance in hell.
IF you must take the time to read many of the threads here and you will realize that there are many here including myself who knew the man personally. He looked great on camera but behind the scenes he was a different person. Money, power, lust, greed were his motives. Look how the ministry continued, many leaders followed his lead. Loy for example (the apple doesn't fall far from the tree).
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TheHighWay
You ask this question with Vic as the focus point. But I think that's backwards. To my way of thinking this isn't about what VP did 20+ years ago (his personal sins), it is about what he STARTED. Because it didn't stop with him. He taught others (lots of others) to follow in his footsteps, and the errors and hurt continue to this day. Ask anyone who has just left twi...
So, let's rephrase the question: The truth will set you free. But the truth is that you put your trust in someone who took advantage of you. Are you sinning by discussing this person's sins against you and others on an open forum?
To which, I reply: Isn't the Bible full of examples detailing the acts of wicked and deceived people, to help us learn, to help others not make the same mistakes? How is what we are doing here any different? Discussing what VP and his disciples did and continue to do isn't about THEM, it is about US. --- Why did we listen? Why did we believe? Why did we not question? Why did we eventually leave? Where do we go from here? What about their examples was positive? What was negative? --- It's about self-discovery and healing. That is the bulk of what happens here.
Are there those who use this site to wallow in self-pity and never move on? Sure. Are there people who read the Bible and use it for wrong purposes? Sure. Does that mis-use mean we should void the content altogether? I don't think so.
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Ham
Goey, you forgot the big question.
"What if the vicster was just a nice guy"
I may have not seen the REAL abuse, but I did see when herr vicmeister got "ugly" with people over a pretty insignificant matter..
the poor camera guy in the "new advanced class".. he ripped him up and down..
I remember a visit at "headquarters" once.. I saw the corps working their royal a**es off.. and one of the guys had a radio.. the mogster started a tirade over the radio, "CMON.. YOUR'E CORPS.. GET WITH IT.. etc, etc.. if this is the best you can do, I'll have to just send you all home.."
SOB didn't have a clue what they were doing..
I heard him two or three rooms away, tearing into some limb leader because the building he scheduled for his mogness just happened to have one of the psychic convention meeting scheduled on the other side of the building..
Like.. what's the guy gonna do? Ask the convention center guy, "hey, are you gonna have debils in meeting rooms here next year when we're having our meeting?"
Well.. he just stood there and took it..
The few incidents when I was even close by, when he wasn't teaching, he didn't seem to be very pleasant.
Then there's the Living Bible incident.
I don't think I've ever seen a "preacher" throw a bible before, while he was cursing and spitting..
But who knows, maybe he was a nice guy..
I dunno. Capone could be a nice guy.. when it was to his advantage..
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Goey
My very sentiments. If it is speaking evil to tell the truth about VPW/TWI, then Paul was a big evil speaker when he spoke against the legalists and Jesus was an evil speaker when he exposed the Pharisees for the phoney hipocrites that they were.
The "evil speaking" counter accusation of the VPW defenders is a misuse of scripture IMO. Any so-called minister of God who unrepentantly abuses those he claims to lead and nurture needs to be exposed for obvious reasons. Side note: The fact that a person is in a position of authority in a religious organization does not necessarily mean that God put him/her there or that they are true ministers at all.
It is interesting that those who accuse me of walking in darkness because I have "spoken evil" of VPW have no problem "speaking evil" of people like John Hagee, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyers, Bennie Hinn and others, saying they are phoney money mongers. While it could be true, what is the difference?
Does "thinketh no evil" mean that when a man or woman's actions are blatently contrary to God's Word, (adultry, theft, unkindness, greed, pride, etc) that we should simply ignore these things and cast them out of our minds? Especially if it is in regards to our leaders or those who may have taught us "the Word"?
It is interesting that many of the people that use this "think no evil" doctrine are those who would set themsleves up as spiritual leaders themsleves. Go figure ...
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doojable
I remember that incident! It was while he was reading from Romans 13 on obeying those in authority.
Appropros...
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Nottawayfer
So are you saying that if you had a daughter, sister, or wife who came to you heartbroken because VPW (or anyone else) did these things to them, you would consider it boring and too negative? And would you dismiss it?
I'd like to be the first to take your blinders off, and take away that broom so you can't sweep anymore dirt under the carpet.
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TrustAndObey
It is possible that Samuel was a great a prophet as he was even though it was Eli that raised him?
And is it possible that David, the man after God's own heart, could go behind his back and have a man killed just so he could steal his wife?
Is it possible?! Did it happen?! I have no doubts God can and does work in many evil situation.. Samuel was God's man for the time, and despite being raised by Eli whose own sons were so evil, God intervened and kept Samuel safe. And David.. Well, he at least repented from his mistake.. We're human, and we all make mistakes. Some very big.. The question is not, did they make them.. The question is were they man enough to own up to the mistake and try and make things for the better?
I'd say VIC never did such a thing.. Nor has Loy..
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oldiesman
Apples and oranges. Jesus and Paul were accountable for what they said, i.e., you knew it was them making the statements. You can look in their eyes, see them and even talk back. Many times, it was up close and personal. There was a genuine, human, in your face give and take.
There's something anticeptic and cruel about finger pointing others' sins anonymously behind a computer. Yes I do characterize that as evil and hateful sometimes. Sometimes I feel like the biggest finger pointers should have a website dedicated to THEIR sins and see how they cope.
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cman
and who is hating who......... oldiesman?
your 'precious moments' in twi are why you can't see
they were and are a manipulation of words
without a godly purpose
to call what we learned 'right' in twi is foolish
it's stink weights down and deadens the mind
could damn well call it doctrines of demons
best thing i did was trash it all and start over
it's all burned out of me and my family
thank God and the Lord Jesus Christ
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oldiesman
Thank God Wierwille and TWI were around to reach me and thousands of folks with the Word of God. Heck, I'm still glad twi and the offshoots are still around... they can help folks who need help.
BTW I feel the same way about the RC church, despite their past atrocities.
God will deal with VPW sins; "vengence is mine, I will repay" saith the Lord.
Hey its FRIDAY.
Getting ready for the weekend? I am. :)
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cman
If it was the Word of God...........
not written, but lived.
Suppose folks will make up their own minds.
btw oldiesman, haven't heard any 'Word of God' from you ever,
just what exactly is that to you?
All I hear is you crying about us.
And vpw has or will have to face himself.
Just as you, live and real, as well as the Lord.
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Belle
Goey, it's so good to "see" you again! :)
To your point, if the Bible is indeed the word of God then God is the ultimate evil speaker since He had all that stuff recorded and preserved for eternity.
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Goey
Apples and organges ? I don't think so
I have never looked in either Paul's or Jesus' eyes to know if they were telling the truth. The information comes from the pages of an ancient book that many of us hold to be a reliable witness. So we believe.
Forget VPW for now. Is it more more cruel to expose the damaging behavior of a religious leader, - or to allow it to continue because that leader may have helped me at one point -- to sweep it under a rug, deny it, justify it while allowing the harm to continue against others? The Catholic church may be a good example of this in regards to a few priests.
Now in regards to VPW -- Does maintaing his legacy as a good bible teacher preclude the telling of the whole story, warts and all? Who is harmed by telling the whole story? Who may be harmed by not telling it? Who can benefit either way?
Question: Why didn't more people come forward when VPW was alive? A serious question that requires serious and honest answers. Were that many people afraid to speak out, to confront? Did VPW have that much power over people or did we simply allow him that power... to the point that many of us turned a blind eye and didn't care who was harmed as long it wasn't us?
I know of quite a few people that stayed with TWI/VPW/LCM and saw the bad stuff going on, maybe even participated in it, but only spoke out after the bad things happend to them. Is this human nature or something more?
As for me, I wouldn't like a Website dedicated to my sins. But then again, I was not a MOG with a following of tens of thousands of trusting people looking up to me as spiritual giant. And I don't have a trail of disillusioned or guilt ridden folks in the path of my alleged "sins". And I don't have a remnant of dedicated followers 20+ years after my death that still believe that I hung the spirtual moon.
I don't think that this Website or any other is DEDICATED to VPW "sins". It is about making sense of our TWI experience. It is therefore necessary, as a part of that process of making sense, to adresss and discuss the accusations against VPW.
Have a nice weekend.
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Twinky
Okay, Oldies, let's start with you. Stop being anonymous, post your own photo, and give your real name. You're an anonymous finger pointer at plenty of other people on these boards.
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Nottawayfer
Obviously nobody can confront VPW to his face. But one person here at GSC tried, and she wasn't anonymous. She got no result from VPW. He didn't want to address it. Maybe it was too negative for him??? He hid behind his curtain of lies to avoid answering questions he should have answered.
I have a friend who talked to LCM face-to-face. He denies doing anything wrong because he thinks what he did was acceptable because VPW sanctioned it.
Let's be real about what happened. If it didn't happen to you, it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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