I like to think people can change their ways, many of us have done things in the past we are not happy about and that is not who we are now. Lets hope he has been separated from that life long enough to see it clearly. God forgives we just need to ask.
First off, I don`t know if he is in the normal world yet. Is he still living in housing subsidized by twi? Is he still recieving money from them? That won`t help him back into the real world.
And secondly, I think that He wanted to be right so bad, I don`t think that his ego will allow him to consider that he was wrong.
Having all of the answers, being right is an arrogance thing.
If you think you know it all, one normally doesn`t see the need for the self examination necessary to acknowledge error and impliment change.
Well, if he ever decides to apologise, he knows where to come. It won't be TWI, but it will be any (perhaps every) ex-Way site like the Cafe, and the Way Corps site. Neither is difficult to locate. Maybe he's already a lurker here? Well, let's see him post his apology and repentance under his own name (no doubt Paw will check out anybody claiming such a name!!) and ... the radio on that will be an "alert all ears" thing.
Warning, Craig, if you're lurking: you know you won't get an easy ride. Be prepared to get back, pressed down and shaken together, in generous measure - that which you doled out to others.
Or perhaps we will be more generous than you in our compassion.
generally, the prognosis for pathological narcissism is grim, so I expect he has not changed and will not at any time in the future feel responsible for his sins.
generally, the prognosis for pathological narcissism is grim, so I expect he has not changed and will not at any time in the future feel responsible for his sins.
With this insight from Potato, I agree... and will add that I think it's highly unlikely he lurks here.
Given his narcissism (can any of us who knew him doubt that he is pathologically narcissistic?), the need to gaze at oneself in the glory of how one believes one actually is, it's undoubtedly FAR too emotionally dangerous for him to willingly view, let alone acknowledge what others say critically about him.
With this insight from Potato, I agree... and will add that I think it's highly unlikely he lurks here.
Given his narcissism (can any of us who knew him doubt that he is pathologically narcissistic?), the need to gaze at oneself in the glory of how one believes one actually is, it's undoubtedly FAR too emotionally dangerous for him to willingly view, let alone acknowledge what others say critically about him.
exactly! the narcissistic ego is extremely fragile, and they put a lot of effort into avoiding anything that contradicts the framework of self they create, while exhibiting an undeniable need for external validation of their creation. I'm sure it's a struggle for him to maintain his self-view as it is, having been pushed out of his rightful position of power, so coming here would be a form of self-punishment a narcissists would tend to avoid.
Someone said to me,that he was working two jobs,he has to pay child support, His young son is pretty angry about how his dad is treated.Sheesh he was a cult leader!!!
I like to think people can change their ways, many of us have done things in the past we are not happy about and that is not who we are now. Lets hope he has been separated from that life long enough to see it clearly. God forgives we just need to ask.
Well said.
Of course there is the other view that if the man is stalked enough and held up to ridicule long enough then he'll have a change of heart...... I think I read about that in II Constipatians.......
I wish he could BE well. Unfortunately, there's not a lot I can do about that.. I don't know if there is even anything he himself can do..
Someone said to me,that he was working two jobs,he has to pay child support, His young son is pretty angry about how his dad is treated.Sheesh he was a cult leader!!!
and it seems the world is filled with these angry young men.. look at the "sewers" *phenomena*.. he's ANGRY..
how the *ministry* treated one of the heirs apparent.. I bet every single day rosie's lard rear occupies the seat in the cornfield is a spur digging in.. it's arrogance against arrogance..
Well said.
Of course there is the other view that if the man is stalked enough and held up to ridicule long enough then he'll have a change of heart...... I think I read about that in II Constipatians.......
I prefer to think it's his one last chance, and a life jacket held out in the highly improbable chance he'd really take it..
instead, he's probably gonna have the same karma follow him into the next life.. and wonder why the hell people hate him..
but *we* don't believe in reincarnation, do *we*..
I really don't care, why fixate on him, he did as much damage to people as he could, with no regrets, the last person who reported on him here about two years ago or so reinforced that he is still not sorry nor thinks he did anything wrong. Â If the son thinks he is being mistreated, I'm sure the father isn't too far behind that thought...
I'm sure we'll hear about it if he ever sees the light...I wouldn't hold my breath though...
my opinion is that he probably, to this day, doesn't consider that he did anything wrong "in God's eyes" because he's convinced that he has far more "biblical understanding of the revelation" than anyone else...
that and the fact that he's probably still on the gravy train... I'm thinking TWI pays (or would pay) quite well to make sure that he remains quietly in the background... or they'd lose what little grip they have left...
...and I don't really think a thread every now and then by someone wondering about him could be considered "fixating"... it's "just wondering"... :)
Thank you Tom...I only wondered about him because of the post I read. I knew him long before he became what I've only known in print. His overbearing urge to be "right" tells me that whenever he made errors in life, they were always pointed out and he was shamed.
When he was newly married he seemed very unsure of his own place or importance. He did state in a meeting that VP told him he should marry Donna...so he did.
I thought that was an odd admittance for a college-educated man. He and Donna were married at her graduation, then it was ROA, then it was move to Emporia to be Corps director. They barely knew each other and next thing you know, they were parents.
He had such adoration for VP and was so convinced [as many of us were] that VP had special insight into the things of God---and that was the hook that ensnared.
I was just mulling over the thought that maybe Craig started out like all of us; just wanting to serve God, but somehow [by greed, lust, or maybe guilt over even considering that the great MOG was very wrong] VP got him to take the plunge into avarice.
I'm not excusing anything he did---he has earned the anger and the isolation in which he lives.
that and the fact that he's probably still on the gravy train... I'm thinking TWI pays (or would pay) quite well to make sure that he remains quietly in the background... or they'd lose what little grip they have left...
I can't imagine that they DON'T pay him. I think it reasonable to assume that twi gave him a golden parachute...his wife and kids were allowed to stay, and wasn't he living in a house that twi owned? He probably gets monthly checks.
Wish him well?...If he passed me on the street, I'd walk up to him and kick him in the b* lls. It's my understanding that he's still arrogant as hell and unrepentant for anything he did...he probably thinks of himself like one of the old testament prophets that the people turned from...didn't they call Jeremiah the weeping prophet?...maybe we should call him the delusional okie. I don't base my opinion of the man on how he treated me personally, although I could...I look at the hundreds and hundreds of people that he walked over...that he abused...some committed suicide, others went to mental institutions...my own experience was that the one time when I had a real problem and turned to him...he treated me with total indifference and what I perceive as a sadistic pleasure in turning his back on me...
...fine, I survived without breaking a sweat. I always saw through that guy...he was nothing but an egotistical blowhard...and meanspirited too.
Yeah...if I was a bettin' man, I'd say that okie Loy is still cashing those monthly checks from twi.
The thing is....having met real Christians since leaving twi, having seen how genuine men and women of the spirit comport themselves and treat one another, LCM, VPW many of the leaders in comparrison were nothing more than arrogant and puffed up men of the flesh who`s knowledge of the scripture has been mistaken for spirituality, and who used the scriptures to justify and excuse any indulgance.
These guys are just posers. It is sad because someday they are going to find out the hard way how tragically wrong they were. What is sadder is how many people they have led down this same path.
my opinion is that he probably, to this day, doesn't consider that he did anything wrong "in God's eyes" because he's convinced that he has far more "biblical understanding of the revelation" than anyone else...
that and the fact that he's probably still on the gravy train... I'm thinking TWI pays (or would pay) quite well to make sure that he remains quietly in the background... or they'd lose what little grip they have left...
...and I don't really think a thread every now and then by someone wondering about him could be considered "fixating"... it's "just wondering"... :)
Well said, Tom.
IMO......men like lcm, cgeer, jal, and several others in twi continue down the same path of "successive, seductive spirituality" wherein the spouting of scriptures is portrayed as Christian leadership/service. On the contrary, this narcisstic posturing is merely their attempt to manipulate, intimidate and control others.
And, even though wierwille has been dead for 23 years......lynn, in his own words SEEKS the approval of "his teacher" (i.e. "wanting wierwille to be proud of him). All indications lead me to think that martindale is part of this "old boys club" too. I could be wrong......but I don't see martindale coming outta the woodwork to amend his wrongful doings.
Do I care? Not really. I tend to think that being DE-THRONED AFTER WAP AND ALL......is a constant reminder in his daily life that he failed miserably! And, his wap class and aos videos have been shelved in the back aisles of twi's warehouse. What a legacy....???........hahahahahaha
Of course, he gets "hush money"..........another thorny reminder that twi and martindale are joined at the hip in a seedy relationship until the day he dies.
Thank you Tom...I only wondered about him because of the post I read. I knew him long before he became what I've only known in print. His overbearing urge to be "right" tells me that whenever he made errors in life, they were always pointed out and he was shamed.
When he was newly married he seemed very unsure of his own place or importance. He did state in a meeting that VP told him he should marry Donna...so he did.
I thought that was an odd admittance for a college-educated man. He and Donna were married at her graduation, then it was ROA, then it was move to Emporia to be Corps director. They barely knew each other and next thing you know, they were parents.
He had such adoration for VP and was so convinced [as many of us were] that VP had special insight into the things of God---and that was the hook that ensnared.
I was just mulling over the thought that maybe Craig started out like all of us; just wanting to serve God, but somehow [by greed, lust, or maybe guilt over even considering that the great MOG was very wrong] VP got him to take the plunge into avarice.
I'm not excusing anything he did---he has earned the anger and the isolation in which he lives.
I don't think lcm started out like the rest of us, I think he already had the qualities to be shaped into what he became and that's what vpw looked for: someone who would be his mini-me.
men like vpw are astute at finding their victims. they look for men who will blindly follow and women who will adore without question. perhaps at one time lcm had a choice of who he would become, but it was well before meeting vpw.
for example, my ex was the man he is now well before twi. he'd figured out how to get people to admire him by being involved in "helping" organizations, a skill he took with him to twi where his desire for admiration would have taken him into the upper ranks if he was smarter and less impulsive than he is, because for a number of years he was being groomed for it, as I was being groomed to be submissive to him. his lack of intelligence and inability to control his impulses saved me from the life of a leader's wife (thank god) but my point is, it's possible that he had a chance at some point in his early life to look at himself and say "wow, I'm a mess, I want to change". he didn't, and sealed his mind against the possibility of needing to change, so at this point he's incapable of it. his mind was made up so long ago and his whole life has been about preserving his self image that to look inside at what he really is would be self-destruction.
lcm became the man he is today because vpw needed a man like him. lcm was already the man vpw needed. some of us come out of a relationships like that and find salvation because if we're lucky enough to crash and burn, the turmoil in our minds could be enough to bubble up something that we buried a long time ago that we can hang on to and use to get better. most people don't do that, though. they seal the pain that self-realization would bring back up in their brain and become worse than before.
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so it was
I like to think people can change their ways, many of us have done things in the past we are not happy about and that is not who we are now. Lets hope he has been separated from that life long enough to see it clearly. God forgives we just need to ask.
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WordWolf
We haven't heard what he's been like the last few years.
Before that, he seemed to be clear that he was set up in some way,
but seemed unaware that he'd done anything that was worthy of blame.
When he was working as a personal trainer, he was as bombastic and
self-promoting as ever. After that, he seemed a bit more like he was
in "the fog years."
That having been said, nothing we know of makes it impossible for him to
have mended his ways. He may well now be aware that he was taught
by a con artist, was "educated" to hurt people and pretend he had all
the answers, and then did so, and that he left hurt and dead people
behind him. I don't think it is LIKELY, but he could easily have
"beaten the odds" and mended his sense of right and wrong.
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GeorgeStGeorge
Well, it's not as if he's come to Greasespot to apologize, or anything.
George
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rascal
First off, I don`t know if he is in the normal world yet. Is he still living in housing subsidized by twi? Is he still recieving money from them? That won`t help him back into the real world.
And secondly, I think that He wanted to be right so bad, I don`t think that his ego will allow him to consider that he was wrong.
Having all of the answers, being right is an arrogance thing.
If you think you know it all, one normally doesn`t see the need for the self examination necessary to acknowledge error and impliment change.
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Twinky
Well, if he ever decides to apologise, he knows where to come. It won't be TWI, but it will be any (perhaps every) ex-Way site like the Cafe, and the Way Corps site. Neither is difficult to locate. Maybe he's already a lurker here? Well, let's see him post his apology and repentance under his own name (no doubt Paw will check out anybody claiming such a name!!) and ... the radio on that will be an "alert all ears" thing.
Warning, Craig, if you're lurking: you know you won't get an easy ride. Be prepared to get back, pressed down and shaken together, in generous measure - that which you doled out to others.
Or perhaps we will be more generous than you in our compassion.
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Ham
I think it's debatable whether he even CAN live in "the real world"..
put his name and address in a phone book.. I don't think so. Of course, that might be more along the lines of survival instincts..
hold a job that can't tolerate more than the average arrogance..
or muster up enough stomach to walk in a holocaust museum..
or offer a genuine, sincere apology, to everyone he's ever abused..
but then again, I hear sometimes pigs can fly..
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potato
generally, the prognosis for pathological narcissism is grim, so I expect he has not changed and will not at any time in the future feel responsible for his sins.
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oldiesman
I wish him well.
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Rocky
With this insight from Potato, I agree... and will add that I think it's highly unlikely he lurks here.
Given his narcissism (can any of us who knew him doubt that he is pathologically narcissistic?), the need to gaze at oneself in the glory of how one believes one actually is, it's undoubtedly FAR too emotionally dangerous for him to willingly view, let alone acknowledge what others say critically about him.
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potato
exactly! the narcissistic ego is extremely fragile, and they put a lot of effort into avoiding anything that contradicts the framework of self they create, while exhibiting an undeniable need for external validation of their creation. I'm sure it's a struggle for him to maintain his self-view as it is, having been pushed out of his rightful position of power, so coming here would be a form of self-punishment a narcissists would tend to avoid.
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frank123lol
Someone said to me,that he was working two jobs,he has to pay child support, His young son is pretty angry about how his dad is treated.Sheesh he was a cult leader!!!
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Deciderator
Well said.
Of course there is the other view that if the man is stalked enough and held up to ridicule long enough then he'll have a change of heart...... I think I read about that in II Constipatians.......
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Oakspear
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potato
yeah I don't either. waste of time. there are other people I wish well, fervently, namely the people he victimized.
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excathedra
two jobs? child support? welcome to the way.....
real life is
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Ham
I wish he could BE well. Unfortunately, there's not a lot I can do about that.. I don't know if there is even anything he himself can do..
and it seems the world is filled with these angry young men.. look at the "sewers" *phenomena*.. he's ANGRY..
how the *ministry* treated one of the heirs apparent.. I bet every single day rosie's lard rear occupies the seat in the cornfield is a spur digging in.. it's arrogance against arrogance..
I prefer to think it's his one last chance, and a life jacket held out in the highly improbable chance he'd really take it..
instead, he's probably gonna have the same karma follow him into the next life.. and wonder why the hell people hate him..
but *we* don't believe in reincarnation, do *we*..
:)
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now I see
I really don't care, why fixate on him, he did as much damage to people as he could, with no regrets, the last person who reported on him here about two years ago or so reinforced that he is still not sorry nor thinks he did anything wrong. Â If the son thinks he is being mistreated, I'm sure the father isn't too far behind that thought...
I'm sure we'll hear about it if he ever sees the light...I wouldn't hold my breath though...
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Tom Strange
my opinion is that he probably, to this day, doesn't consider that he did anything wrong "in God's eyes" because he's convinced that he has far more "biblical understanding of the revelation" than anyone else...
that and the fact that he's probably still on the gravy train... I'm thinking TWI pays (or would pay) quite well to make sure that he remains quietly in the background... or they'd lose what little grip they have left...
...and I don't really think a thread every now and then by someone wondering about him could be considered "fixating"... it's "just wondering"... :)
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Ham
yeah.. maybe it's an illusion.. that those who think they are "not of us" would actually wake up.. I dunno.. I'm a dreamer..
maybe the dream will live in another day..
sooo.. we wait quietly for the next "incarnation".. have we really learned anything.. I hope..
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Rejoice
Thank you Tom...I only wondered about him because of the post I read. I knew him long before he became what I've only known in print. His overbearing urge to be "right" tells me that whenever he made errors in life, they were always pointed out and he was shamed.
When he was newly married he seemed very unsure of his own place or importance. He did state in a meeting that VP told him he should marry Donna...so he did.
I thought that was an odd admittance for a college-educated man. He and Donna were married at her graduation, then it was ROA, then it was move to Emporia to be Corps director. They barely knew each other and next thing you know, they were parents.
He had such adoration for VP and was so convinced [as many of us were] that VP had special insight into the things of God---and that was the hook that ensnared.
I was just mulling over the thought that maybe Craig started out like all of us; just wanting to serve God, but somehow [by greed, lust, or maybe guilt over even considering that the great MOG was very wrong] VP got him to take the plunge into avarice.
I'm not excusing anything he did---he has earned the anger and the isolation in which he lives.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I can't imagine that they DON'T pay him. I think it reasonable to assume that twi gave him a golden parachute...his wife and kids were allowed to stay, and wasn't he living in a house that twi owned? He probably gets monthly checks.
Wish him well?...If he passed me on the street, I'd walk up to him and kick him in the b* lls. It's my understanding that he's still arrogant as hell and unrepentant for anything he did...he probably thinks of himself like one of the old testament prophets that the people turned from...didn't they call Jeremiah the weeping prophet?...maybe we should call him the delusional okie. I don't base my opinion of the man on how he treated me personally, although I could...I look at the hundreds and hundreds of people that he walked over...that he abused...some committed suicide, others went to mental institutions...my own experience was that the one time when I had a real problem and turned to him...he treated me with total indifference and what I perceive as a sadistic pleasure in turning his back on me...
...fine, I survived without breaking a sweat. I always saw through that guy...he was nothing but an egotistical blowhard...and meanspirited too.
Yeah...if I was a bettin' man, I'd say that okie Loy is still cashing those monthly checks from twi.
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rascal
The thing is....having met real Christians since leaving twi, having seen how genuine men and women of the spirit comport themselves and treat one another, LCM, VPW many of the leaders in comparrison were nothing more than arrogant and puffed up men of the flesh who`s knowledge of the scripture has been mistaken for spirituality, and who used the scriptures to justify and excuse any indulgance.
These guys are just posers. It is sad because someday they are going to find out the hard way how tragically wrong they were. What is sadder is how many people they have led down this same path.
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skyrider
Well said, Tom.
IMO......men like lcm, cgeer, jal, and several others in twi continue down the same path of "successive, seductive spirituality" wherein the spouting of scriptures is portrayed as Christian leadership/service. On the contrary, this narcisstic posturing is merely their attempt to manipulate, intimidate and control others.
And, even though wierwille has been dead for 23 years......lynn, in his own words SEEKS the approval of "his teacher" (i.e. "wanting wierwille to be proud of him). All indications lead me to think that martindale is part of this "old boys club" too. I could be wrong......but I don't see martindale coming outta the woodwork to amend his wrongful doings.
Do I care? Not really. I tend to think that being DE-THRONED AFTER WAP AND ALL......is a constant reminder in his daily life that he failed miserably! And, his wap class and aos videos have been shelved in the back aisles of twi's warehouse. What a legacy....???........hahahahahaha
Of course, he gets "hush money"..........another thorny reminder that twi and martindale are joined at the hip in a seedy relationship until the day he dies.
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potato
I don't think lcm started out like the rest of us, I think he already had the qualities to be shaped into what he became and that's what vpw looked for: someone who would be his mini-me.
men like vpw are astute at finding their victims. they look for men who will blindly follow and women who will adore without question. perhaps at one time lcm had a choice of who he would become, but it was well before meeting vpw.
for example, my ex was the man he is now well before twi. he'd figured out how to get people to admire him by being involved in "helping" organizations, a skill he took with him to twi where his desire for admiration would have taken him into the upper ranks if he was smarter and less impulsive than he is, because for a number of years he was being groomed for it, as I was being groomed to be submissive to him. his lack of intelligence and inability to control his impulses saved me from the life of a leader's wife (thank god) but my point is, it's possible that he had a chance at some point in his early life to look at himself and say "wow, I'm a mess, I want to change". he didn't, and sealed his mind against the possibility of needing to change, so at this point he's incapable of it. his mind was made up so long ago and his whole life has been about preserving his self image that to look inside at what he really is would be self-destruction.
lcm became the man he is today because vpw needed a man like him. lcm was already the man vpw needed. some of us come out of a relationships like that and find salvation because if we're lucky enough to crash and burn, the turmoil in our minds could be enough to bubble up something that we buried a long time ago that we can hang on to and use to get better. most people don't do that, though. they seal the pain that self-realization would bring back up in their brain and become worse than before.
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