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Evidence: Letters VPW wrote to the Way Corps

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'Your kind of people' means that most people here don't value VP. While I still do, you have a right to your opinion.

Now that wasn't so difficult, was it. :)

Just for the record, I believe that the adversary used these three men in an attempt to 'sew discord among brethren'. As for the events following POP, yes, the adversary was successful at sewing discord among brethren, but he didn't get rid of the body of Christ, or the rightly divided word of God.

Oh puhleeze! as if what VPee taught was any such thing?

"All the soap opera stuff and the sex scandals were totally irrelevant to God".

Seriously???

Just more irrational rationalization... and critical lack of critical thinking skills.

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"(And no one has mentioned yet anything about this great "research" they did uncovered and/or taught others. I guess that don't matter one whit. They MUST have been right, given how wrong VP was on everything else...)".....TLC.

Well let's get that cleared up then. Dr. Bernegger and Dr.McRae had come up with the working manuscript of what was to be "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed". They had worked for months on this. Peter on the astronomy and astronomical events, and Marty on the MSS and texts in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac. John worked on Greek textual criticism, and later, as the pre-emptive wierwille attack began to mount, fanning confronted the entire psychodynamic of the corpse program, and had it nailed, which of course nailed not only dictor, but da forehead, wally cummins, gerald wrenn, John crouch, Gary Curtis and beence finnegan to boot! And he was spot on then.

Then, da forehead and wally took the manuscript from them saying it was "ministry property" and would be copyrighted under Vic's name, since it was dictor who gave them the assignment as well as "all the resources of the research department". And, more importantly, their work "did not line up with the word as Dr. Wierwille knew it and would be published according to his and the research department's final edit. When the three refused to edit out accurate textual and scientific evidence and references to martin's and Bullinger's works on the same subject, which the 3 amigos had thouroughly examined and had airtight evidence of where they were wrong, or right, or not privy to the most recent knowledge and/or research on the subject from various sources. Then, the 3 Amigos demanded the intellectual rights to their manuscript so they could work on it themselves without pressure to prove Vic right, as well as attribute all the research to himself and the faceless research department. Vic refused and the "possession" accusations began to fly along with verbal threats. The three threatened to sue, and then the banishment and disinformation and cover-up were thrown into full steam ahead.

So, the original biblical and scientific research and the manuscript were stolen from them by dictor and wally, and then given to wally and his keedz in the research dept., including von schoenheit and crouch among others, to edit and rewrite according to Vic's specifications. It was published by American Christian Press as "Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed" by Victor Paul Wierwille. He took full credit for a book he purposely stole and had re-written for himself, and then took the credit for writing the whole thing himself. That's where that oh-so-"great" research wound up TLC!

And, this was absolutely not in any way new. This was how every book dictor "wrote" was written. The techniques of intellectual theft and plagiarism, and taking credit for everything you never did as if it was part of gawd's calling and minus-tray given only to you. Another perfect example.... "Jesus Christ Our Passover", again, by dictor paul wierwille and no one else. The pattern for what was in store for the three amigos had been well-practiced

and well executed many times before the three ever ran into vic's research buzz saw. I'm glad they did not buckle under. They were right back then, and they made their post-TWIt lives meaningful to themselves and helpful to others. All dictor accomplished with his life was wind up drunk, possessed by cancer spirits, an unconfessed and never convicted serial rapist and sexual assaulter, a pathological malignant paranoid narcissist, and sociopathic liar to the second he died. The three amigos are alive and helping people daily. Dictor is dead and rotten in his waterlogged shrine at the farm. Thank god.

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"(And no one has mentioned yet anything about this great "research" they did uncovered and/or taught others. I guess that don't matter one whit. They MUST have been right, given how wrong VP was on everything else...)".....TLC.

Well let's get that cleared up then.

The context of the letter should have made it clear enough that I was referring to their grandiose out to lunch effort in eschatology (which you've not cleared up a speck of), not Bernegger and McRae's work on JCOPS (which has already been discussed elsewhere here on GSC.)

But speaking of JCOPS, perhaps rather than making a blanket accusation that "truth" was subsequently edited out of the work these young boys did you care to identify exactly what was changed (from truth to error.) If you can, that is. (Otherwise, it probably doesn't amount to much more than a lot of blind accusations and hot air... because without any better or more accurate information or insight into what was or wasn't changed, whatever edits were made might just as easily have been corrections as they were mistakes.) Furthermore, it is not really all that unique, uncommon or unheard of for a prominently positioned individual (be it a "boss" at work, a team leader, a university professor, or any number of other "responsible" parties) to "assume command" and take over a project once it reaches a certain stage of development or success and "put their name on it." Seems these boys just happen to encounter it a little earlier or sooner in life than others may have, and it ....ed them off. I ain't sayin' what happened was justified or right. But frankly speaking, I'm just not convinced it's as big a deal as some have made it out to be. Right or wrong, seems chit like that happens, and it'll really mess your head up if you can't see or deal with it from a less emotional, more pragmatic perspective (which is something young people often struggle with.)

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Again, when I posted this, I was curious about how this letter affected WC.

Heck, it don't affect you much at all if you know the truth... and we knew we had that.

Isn't that the same way you look at it?

'Your kind of people' means that most people here don't value VP. While I still do, you have a right to your opinion.

Ah, well... that kite won't fly in a wind tunnel. (You'd have better luck with a balloon that you just let loose. Though, darts will eventually find and strike it too.)

Even if I didn't adhere to the same worthlessness that some propound, the mere wisp of anything more than lowly pond scum draws gunfire.

Maybe you'll have better luck in the doctrinal forums. (But, not necessarily.)

Those men listened to the same deceiving spirits as the ten spies did, who gave an evil report of the promised land.

Wow. I would have never guessed that anyone could think those spies knew or thought anything whatsoever about the ending times and Christ's return to set up his kingdom here on earth. Did you hear someone teach that, or did you come up with that on your own?

Those same ten had seen the power of God up close. They crossed the Red sea, ate the manna, all that stuff, but when it came time to honor God, they crapped out. They had "facts" to back up their position, but God wasn't pleased with them for it. Same here.

Same here? Seriously? Ah, me thinks the air is getting a bit thick here. I needs to step out for a breather...

You want to dedicate your life to cursing a dead man? Drag.

Nay. I think they're just wanting to (i.e., trying to) let some air out of that buff balloon of yours.

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Why is it that when people want to exalt the image of Wierwille they so often default to Biblical parallels?

He wasn't a Biblical figure, he was just some guy who ran a heavy handed religious cult from a tiny cornfield in rural Ohio.

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The context of the letter should have made it clear enough that I was referring to their grandiose out to lunch effort in eschatology (which you've not cleared up a speck of), not Bernegger and McRae's work on JCOPS (which has already been discussed elsewhere here on GSC.)

But speaking of JCOPS, perhaps rather than making a blanket accusation that "truth" was subsequently edited out of the work these young boys did you care to identify exactly what was changed (from truth to error.) If you can, that is. (Otherwise, it probably doesn't amount to much more than a lot of blind accusations and hot air... because without any better or more accurate information or insight into what was or wasn't changed, whatever edits were made might just as easily have been corrections as they were mistakes.) Furthermore, it is not really all that unique, uncommon or unheard of for a prominently positioned individual (be it a "boss" at work, a team leader, a university professor, or any number of other "responsible" parties) to "assume command" and take over a project once it reaches a certain stage of development or success and "put their name on it." Seems these boys just happen to encounter it a little earlier or sooner in life than others may have, and it ....ed them off. I ain't sayin' what happened was justified or right. But frankly speaking, I'm just not convinced it's as big a deal as some have made it out to be. Right or wrong, seems chit like that happens, and it'll really mess your head up if you can't see or deal with it from a less emotional, more pragmatic perspective (which is something young people often struggle with.)

1) What experience gives you legitimate perspective to make declarations about "their grandiose out to lunch effort?" And have anyone take you seriously, that is?

2) "... it is not really all that unique, uncommon or unheard of for a prominently positioned individual (be it a "boss" at work, a team leader, a university professor, or any number of other "responsible" parties) to "assume command" and take over a project once it reaches a certain stage of development or success and "put their name on it." Or so you have been led to believe.

Care to document and put parameters or constraints on that particular declaration?

Intellectual property is an intriguing topic in the legal literature. Are you a specialist in that field?

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Why is it that when people want to exalt the image of Wierwille they so often default to Biblical parallels?

He wasn't a Biblical figure, he was just some guy who ran a heavy handed religious cult from a tiny cornfield in rural Ohio.

Like I said, POP fallout did not get rid of the body of Christ (the church). That's us. We're all biblical. I know you got that memo once upon a time. You must have shredded it decades ago.

I know of one detail that was changed in JCOPS. In Peter Bernegger's way mag article he claimed that Jesus was born in 7BC. JCOPS says it's 3BC.

TLC, no one has a problem drawing Wierwille apologists out. There is no need to resort to tricks. The only real challenge is getting them to shut up.

AMEN!

Edited by modcat5

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Why is it that when people want to exalt the image of Wierwille they so often default to Biblical parallels?

He wasn't a Biblical figure, he was just some guy who ran a heavy handed religious cult from a tiny cornfield in rural Ohio.

Since John's gone back to "I'm replying without reading what I'm reply to" mode (no surprise there),

I'll point out he ducked the question while pretending to answer it.

Furthermore,

if one wanted to draw a parallel between someone in the Bible and vpw,

no honest comparison points to David.

A much fairer comparison (and still complimentary to vpw) is Balaam and vpw.

Otherwise,

one is rather overtly skipping over vpw's other felonies, misdemeanors, and general poor conduct

and claiming he messed up exactly ONCE like David did.

(The entire incident is treated as one enormous blunder, with a punishment at that level.)

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I know of one detail that was changed in JCOPS. In Peter Bernegger's way mag article he claimed that Jesus was born in 7BC. JCOPS says it's 3BC.

Not only is the evidence for his crucifixion occurring in 28AD very strong, I seem to recall the old Cosmos 4.0 program I used to have placing an alignment of certain planets with the 3BC date. Both of which give further credence to the probability that Jesus Christ was about 31 years old when he laid his life down at Calvary... which also fits well with his ministry being shorter (~1.2 years), rather than longer (~3 years.)

Okay, I realize that Daniel 9:26 can (and probably does) refer to weeks of years. Still, given the double entendre that prophecies so often have, I would not be the least surprised if his ministry from start up to the point of crucifixion was... well, exactly as written. 62 weeks.

Edited by TLC

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Since John's gone back to "I'm replying without reading what I'm reply to" mode (no surprise there),

I'll point out he ducked the question while pretending to answer it.

Furthermore,

if one wanted to draw a parallel between someone in the Bible and vpw,

no honest comparison points to David.

A much fairer comparison (and still complimentary to vpw) is Balaam and vpw.

Otherwise,

one is rather overtly skipping over vpw's other felonies, misdemeanors, and general poor conduct

and claiming he messed up exactly ONCE like David did.

(The entire incident is treated as one enormous blunder, with a punishment at that level.)

I'd think that'd be too difficult for anyone to disagree with, WW... except, I think there's probably sufficient evidence to prove that David screwed up more than once.

I also think there was far, far, FAR too much uncalled for, unnecessary, and... oh, let's just say it like it was (and still is for some)... bad and wrongly made comparisons to (and "wannabees like") the prophets of old in Israel's history. Personally, I see it as a failure (of VPW and of TWI) to understand and see certain differences between Paul's gospel (of the resurrected and ascended Christ) and the gospel of the Kingdom (which Jesus and his 12 apostles preached.) The ministry took parts of Israel's history that it liked, tossed other parts aside, blended certain legalistic (and controlling) stuff into the gospel of grace, and ladled it out as "the truth" (like it hadn't been known since the 1st century!)... which evidently served their needs for a while. So, though I see VPW and TWI as having had some truth (which is undoubtedly why it grew the way that it did for a while), it certainly isn't anywhere near as unique, as pure, or as right as it was once thought or perpetrated as... and once sucked into its crevices (and the mindset that "you have more truth than anyone else around you"), it can be mighty, mighty hard to find the humility that's so inherent with and integral to the truth.

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Like I said, POP fallout did not get rid of the body of Christ (the church). That's us. We're all biblical. I know you got that memo once upon a time. You must have shredded it decades ago.

I know of one detail that was changed in JCOPS. In Peter Bernegger's way mag article he claimed that Jesus was born in 7BC. JCOPS says it's 3BC.

quote: TLC, no one has a problem drawing Wierwille apologists out. There is no need to resort to tricks. The only real challenge is getting them to shut up.

AMEN!

Merely as an attempt to clarify terminology - I'm of the opinion there's actually two "churches":

The invisible church – and everyone is a member of the body of Christ; some members of the body of Christ may not be involved in a visible church (see below); Christ as the head of the invisible church knows those who belong to his church.

The visible church – every member of the congregation may or may not be a member of the body of Christ (the invisible church); the pastor may know each and every member of his congregation but he may not know for sure if he or anyone else in his congregation is also a member of the invisible church.

That being said I also realize that may shake up the thinking of folks comfortable with the false assurances of VP's line of thought – "now you know that you know that you know…"

Furthermore – there's sufficient evidence in the Bible that addresses the issues of false churches, false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing (like VP doing his best performance as a theologian/man of god / 5 in 1 gift ministry, and individuals with a false sense of security about their salvation. Perhaps that is why John the Baptist challenged people to bring forth fruit that is in keeping with repentance – Matthew 3:8 – in other words, if you are saved then prove it by the way you live. I think James addressed the same idea in chapter 2 – faith if it is not complemented by action is dead.

Perhaps the fallout of POP had more to do with triggering alarms in the heads of some folks – maybe a wakeup call to discernment. At some point(amount of time to reach the tipping point will vary for everyone) I think many folks looked at the whole mess and said "this is bogus".

You know, the criteria for spotting wolves in sheep clothing given in Matthew 7 is simple enough – it does not take a mental giant to figure it out; whether you are a Christian or not if you look at the type of fruit on the tree all you have to do is compare it to a reference point:

"hmmmm, that tree has thorns or thistles….alright so it's NOT an apple tree"….Even a non-Christian can surmise that the way VP 's doctrine and practices hurt so many people that it had nothing to do with genuine Christianity!

(edited for clarity)

Edited by T-Bone

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Perhaps the fallout of POP had more to do with triggering alarms in the heads of some folks – maybe a wakeup call to discernment. At some point(amount of time to reach the tipping point will vary for everyone) I think many folks looked at the whole mess and said "this is bogus".

The reason I still value VP and pfal is because of my relationship with God, not VP/twi. People are fickle. Ralph wrote a chapter in that book 'the Living word speaks'. It was called 'Principles of church administration and the successful Christian'. Lots of stuff in there about leaders causing divisions in the church. In the last paragraph, he writes, "The untiring selfless efforts of Dr. Wierwille to further the work began at Pentecost serve as the greatest examples of faithful Christian leadership today." That was then, THIS is now...

All dictor accomplished with his life was wind up drunk, possessed by cancer spirits, an unconfessed and never convicted serial rapist and sexual assaulter, a pathological malignant paranoid narcissist, and sociopathic liar to the second he died. The three amigos are alive and helping people daily. Dictor is dead and rotten in his waterlogged shrine at the farm. Thank god.

But, we're all capable of this. That's why God sent Jesus Christ. We didn't deserve Him, we NEEDED Him! So continue to list VPs so called sins like you're NOT being sodomized by satan.

Hey! Did I ever tell you guys that I got delivered unto satan? I was told this not long after being forced out of twi. It's possible that whoever told me this was just messing with my head, but suppose it's true. In scripture there are 2 stated outcomes from being so delivered...1) the destruction of the flesh, and 2) learn not to blaspheme. Well, almost 22 years and my flesh ain't destroyed yet and whatever twi currently views as "blasphemy", I have probably expressed here at GSC more than anywhere else. Ironic, isn't it? Like Ralph once said, "Didn't f'ing work, did it?"

[Mod note: "Sodomized by Satan?" Come on, man.]

Edited by modcat5

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(SNIP)

...The reason I still value VP and pfal is because of my relationship with God, not VP/twi. People are fickle.

(SNIP) ... a chapter in that book 'the Living word speaks'. It was called 'Principles of church administration and the successful Christian'. Lots of stuff in there about leaders causing divisions in the church. In the last paragraph, he writes, "The untiring selfless efforts of Dr. Wierwille to further the work began at Pentecost serve as the greatest examples of faithful Christian leadership today." That was then, THIS is now...

quote: All dictor accomplished with his life was wind up drunk, possessed by cancer spirits, an unconfessed and never convicted serial rapist and sexual assaulter, a pathological malignant paranoid narcissist, and sociopathic liar to the second he died. The three amigos are alive and helping people daily. Dictor is dead and rotten in his waterlogged shrine at the farm. Thank god.

But, we're all capable of this. That's why God sent Jesus Christ. We didn't deserve Him, we NEEDED Him! So continue to list VPs so called sins like you're NOT being sodomized by satan.

(SNIP)

personally, i believe God helps people whether they're in or out or just thinking about leaving crazy town (TWI) - despite the insidious influence of VP, PFAL, TWI, or even the TWI mindset....there is NO darkness, evil or confusion that is so impenetrable that God cannot get through to a person's heart and soul!

...and reflecting on the VP that i knew - when he let his guard down among the way corps - his licentious behavior...promoting his I've-so-renewed-my-mind-that-nothing-I-want-to-do-is-sinful mindset- - i might tend to agree with your statement "but, we're all capable of this" - when such an evil influence is revered...and enshrined as THE TEACHER that $hi_t is bound to rub off onto students - don't you think?

...sure glad i left when i did and did not finish my way corps "training"....yikes - Matthew 23:15 comes to mind: Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. (NIV) ....VP's doctrine is like an intellectual virus that has almost a life of its own - - it not only thrives at TWI but is alive and well in the offshoots.

(respectfully edited)

Edited by T-Bone

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Hey! Did I ever tell you guys that I got delivered unto satan? I was told this not long after being forced out of twi. It's possible that whoever told me this was just messing with my head, but suppose it's true. In scripture there are 2 stated outcomes from being so delivered...

1) the destruction of the flesh, and 2) learn not to blaspheme.

Well, almost 22 years and my flesh ain't destroyed yet and whatever twi currently views as "blasphemy", I have probably expressed here at GSC more than anywhere else. Ironic, isn't it? Like Ralph once said, "Didn't f'ing work, did it?"

I think that almost qualifies as a "Grease Spot Gem."

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What interests me is how people can or cannot change, how willing people are (or not) to adapt to a changing situation. Nothing is permanent. Everything changes. This is a fact of life known since the beginning of time.

So, I'm asking Johniam, so what if DWBH wrote in a way that praised VPW in that book, The Living Word Speaks? (I have a copy). That was then. This is now. Over time he changed his views. He woke up. Like many of us here.

So what that I wrote a Way magazine article long ago that encouraged people to study PFAL as if it contained THE WORD OF GOD . That was then. Over time I changed my mind after I gained new information. I woke up. Life is a journey.

Some people change when they learn new information, new facts, have experiences that show them the error of their ways or that something better for them awaits.

I suspect that it is hard for others not to change when new facts and understanding comes to them is because there is some kind of payoff for holding onto the old view. Or they fear what will happen if they change. i.e. they might look bad in other people's eyes.

Let's celebrate the fact we can change, learn, grow and not be ashamed of the process.

Someone recently tried to intimidate me about my upcoming book, saying it seemed I was proud that it took me 17 years to realize I was in the wrong place (TWI) for me. Proud? That seemed odd to me. It's simply a fact of my life that I was in TWI for 17 years. I often state that fact because for outsiders, it indicates I was not a casual believer and may offer some genuine insight on the subject.

So, using an example (citing what DWBH wrote long ago) of what someone said or wrote long ago as a way to discredit what they say today disallows the reality that people can evolve and change. Thank goodness we can. Just sayin'.

Edited by penworks
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What interests me is how people can or cannot change, how willing people are (or not) to adapt to a changing situation. Nothing is permanent. Everything changes. This is a fact of life known since the beginning of time.

So, I'm asking Johniam, so what if DWBH wrote in a way that praised VPW in that book, The Living Word Speaks? (I have a copy). That was then. This is now. Over time he changed his views. He woke up. Like many of us here.

So what that I wrote a Way magazine article long ago that encouraged people to study PFAL as if it contained THE WORD OF GOD . That was then. Over time I changed my mind after I gained new information. I woke up. Life is a journey.

Some people change when they learn new information, new facts, have experiences that show them the error of their ways or that something better for them awaits.

I suspect that it is hard for others not to change when new facts and understanding comes to them is because there is some kind of payoff for holding onto the old view. Or they fear what will happen if they change. i.e. they might look bad in other people's eyes.

Let's celebrate the fact we can change, learn, grow and not be ashamed of the process.

Someone recently tried to intimidate me about my upcoming book, saying it seemed I was proud that it took me 17 years to realize I was in the wrong place (TWI) for me. Proud? That seemed odd to me. It's simply a fact of my life that I was in TWI for 17 years. I often state that fact because for outsiders, it indicates I was not a casual believer and may offer some genuine insight on the subject.

So, using an example (citing what DWBH wrote long ago) of what someone said or wrote long ago as a way to discredit what they say today disallows the reality that people can evolve and change. Thank goodness we can. Just sayin'.

eusa_clap.gif

excellent points, Penworks !

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A funny aside to all this........when da forehead supposedly got his large cranium unstuck from his own derrière, in 1989 after geer's November epistle from that year. Supposedly, this was when da fawg cleared and all dem debbil spurts flipped out of Loy-boy and right into geer......LOL.

The entire groundwork of his paranoid revelation, which eventually led to his revelation on how to " mark and avoid" the debbilish cop-outs he hated so much, and publicly excoriate them after they already left. The whole "leadership tapes" series on Galatians was lifted straight from my article in that "festschrift", The Living Word Speaks. That's why I've been looking for a copy, because I wanted to re-read it. I threw mine into the Douglas Dump fire in Douglas, MA in March of 1987. One of the 17th corpse sent me the info on da forehead's deliverance. The 17th corpse was the younger corpse in-Rez when I left in 12/1986. The dancing pwesident separated all those who were "exposed" to my leadership and began his interpretation and exposition of how dem debbil spurts in me got all the corpses I worked with so possessed......LOL. My article from that book became the textbook for coming outta dem fawg years. Plagiarize and demonize was the procedure which eventually led to the publicly private conclusion that I was a dreaded "seedboy"! Pretty old but effective disinformation campaign of which Josef Goebbels would have been as proud as dictor Paul himself. Scapegoating in absentia is debased cowardice, imo.

Eventually, those "Galatians tapes" became a requirement for the entire 17th corpse, and quickly became required listening for all of TWIt. The 17th corpse who were "directly affected" by me at HQ in 1986 while I was in the Yuk Twig, were intimidated into acceptance of all this or getting "marked and avoided" and publicly shredded. Several of those 17th flew under the radar in order to graduate and then "trip-out" to make a statement. Remember.....there was no internet at the time, no social media, no alternative avenue of communication. Once WayDale got up and running, it was all over for those liars and their unbridled hubris. GSC continues the uncensored exposure of all those behind the curtain of the OZ and "the walls of Zion" in the promised land of psychotic delusion which is TWI.

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Excellent post, Penworks.

It seems to me that not only can we change as we grow older, but that we should change.

When one is 5 years old, parents and other adults give information and instructions. As one ages, that information and instruction may change. And as the information and instruction changes, it ought to change the shape of each individual. The five year old gains understanding and wisdom. Becomes able to make its own decisions, give itself "instructions." That growing and ability to make decisions is called maturity but does it have a finite point? We know only in part - and that will remain so all our lives. And so we are never fully mature, all our lives. Just more mature than we were a few years earlier (perhaps).

Do you still believe and act as you did when you were five years old? Few adults do.

If you went to tertiary education or professional training, do you still think the same as you did before? Or do you have more wisdom to make decisions? Are you better able to foresee possible outcomes?

Yes, you changed! You don't think as you did, when you were a child.

Have crises affected your life - maybe the death of a loved one with whom you'd been very close?

Maybe a severe accident (they're not called "life-changing injuries" for nothing!)?

Yes, you changed! You learned to adapt to the new circumstances.

Your underlying personality probably never changes; it's how you express that personality. And what you take into account. What you allow to affect you. How you deal with things.

We are not set in stone. We are not required to have hearts of stone - in fact, quite the opposite.

We are required to change - to be transformed - to become different people. And yet, remain true to ourselves. And to our God (if we have one!).

We should embrace the opportunity to grow and change. It's exciting.

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And, FWIW, I was a dyed in the wool TWIt, hadn't been satisfied with any church, boring; here was someone who knew some Bible!! And I went through WC training and did all the rubbish things like alienating my family and friends (or rather, alienating myself) blah blah, finally got thrown out. Which though devastating at the time turned out to be a real blessing. Don't know when I would have left otherwise. Probably have ended up being ... I won't speculate, but a lot of women were abused and someone had been having a go at me, "softening me up."

It was awful. Awful. I was depressed for about 10 years. Near suicidal. But now - I make lemonade from it. I thought I had compassion before. Maybe... but nothing like now. I didn't understand abused women, and how they kept returning to abusing partners. I do now. I didn't understand a lot of things... I do now.

I've not "changed" to become a different person. I've changed to become freer to become ME.

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So, I'm asking Johniam, so what if DWBH wrote in a way that praised VPW in that book, The Living Word Speaks? (I have a copy). That was then. This is now. Over time he changed his views. He woke up. Like many of us here.

So what that I wrote a Way magazine article long ago that encouraged people to study PFAL as if it contained THE WORD OF GOD . That was then. Over time I changed my mind after I gained new information. I woke up. Life is a journey.

Some people change when they learn new information, new facts, have experiences that show them the error of their ways or that something better for them awaits.

I suspect that it is hard for others not to change when new facts and understanding comes to them is because there is some kind of payoff for holding onto the old view. Or they fear what will happen if they change. i.e. they might look bad in other people's eyes.

Let's celebrate the fact we can change, learn, grow and not be ashamed of the process.

I'm not afraid to change, I merely believe that what you want me to change TO does not compute. I've expressed my reasoning behind this right on this thread. You don't have to agree. Neither does anyone else.

The sentence before I quoted DWBH said "people are fickle". That sentence was the sole basis for the quotes. ALL people are fickle. Weakness of the flesh. Sin nature as usual. Of course he and everybody else have the capacity to evaluate a situation, even without any new information, and change opinions.

I'd like to ask DWBH a question. It has nothing to do with anything previously discussed on this thread; I'm just curious. Back in the day, there was a rumor going around among the St. Louis area believers that Eldridge Cleaver, the black panther leader, was taking pfal, and that YOU were undershepherding him. That's got to be bogus, right? But, who else was going to undershepherd a guy like that? LCM? RFR? I can't even picture Lonnell Johnson doing it. Did anything like that ever happen?

[Mod note: Please, learn how the quote function works. It makes reading so much easier, and it is there for that purpose.]

Edited by modcat5

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quote:

I'd like to ask DWBH a question. It has nothing to do with anything previously discussed on this thread.

What a surprise.

:o

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:offtopic:/>

I'd like to ask DWBH a question. It has nothing to do with anything previously discussed on this thread; I'm just curious.

That's one reason to use the Private Messaging facility. Investigate the area at the top right of the screen. Click by your name, and you will find Messenger. You need to [start to] type in the addressee's name (not initials). Hey presto! No derails!

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:offtopic:/>/>

That's one reason to use the Private Messaging facility. Investigate the area at the top right of the screen. Click by your name, and you will find Messenger. You need to [start to] type in the addressee's name (not initials). Hey presto! No derails!

He can also click on the username to get a screen with an option to "send me a message."

If he can master those 2 clicks, he can move on to using the "reply" function correctly.

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