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26 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Love it!

I was witnessed to by a WoW in the UK in 1985.  Went in rez in Ohio about 1991-93 then led a WoW team in another country.  There was a strong suggestion I might be recalled to the US in some capacity after that, a prospect that filled me with dread.  Got myself DFAC'd instead in Feb 1995 (I think).  Thoroughly indoctrinated (and having given up a potentially very good career and all my friends and family), I was desperately miserable for a decade until I discovered the Cafe.  Then, I was appalled.  And then - I was set free - yay!!!! :dance:

In the UK, I got to meet with a number of European believers, including US and UK trained Corps.  While I was in the USA I travelled a bit and met / stayed with a few believers and got to know lots of others at ministry events like RoA and special events.  I met DWBH (and several of you other posters here.  Hi T-Bone!) a few years later in Texas. 

How does that fit with your dates, Chocky?  You have said before, but I've forgotten.

You are roughly the same generation as me.  You got luckier and left earlier.  I've never met anyone from here.

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Hi All! Well....I actually finished forcing myself to listen to those lying, sanctimonious, self-deluded fools. I could only take it in 8-10 minute segments, once a day. I felt as if I was watchi

I'm not even going to bother listening/watching to the R&R presentations you all are talking about. I remember when we got the boot writing a four-page letter explaining our situation to the Rever

I never served at any of the top levels of the Way, but I did graduate from the corpse.  I did hold some leadership positions. When I finally left twi, I told God I didn't want to lead again because I

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1 hour ago, Twinky said:

(Snip)

In the UK, I got to meet with a number of European believers, including US and UK trained Corps.  While I was in the USA I travelled a bit and met / stayed with a few believers and got to know lots of others at ministry events like RoA and special events.  I met DWBH (and several of you other posters here.  Hi T-Bone!) a few years later in Texas. 

How does that fit with your dates, Chocky?  You have said before, but I've forgotten.

Oh hi Little Miss Name-Dropper :wave:  :biglaugh:

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Hi Chocky.  Thx your message.  Our paths may have crossed.  There is much about that time that I simply do not remember.  I call that time, and particularly the post-TWI period, "The Lost Years." 

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Hi you too, T-Bone! :wave:

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7 minutes ago, Twinky said:

Hi you too, T-Bone! :wave:

Now I feel bad - you’ve used my name twice and I called you Little Miss Name-Dropper...

sorry about that Twinky Twinky ! :rolleyes:

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On March 15, 2018 at 1:05 PM, Grace Valerie Claire said:

Socks, excellent post!!  I too wonder why it took decades for the people in R&R, to jump ship.  I would like to know what it was that made them leave TWI, when they did.  But I suspect that a lot of it had to do with money.  

Thanks. If I may, I'm going to string together some thoughts I've had about that, not new by any means.

Retirement may very well have been what caused this latest diaspora. That idea has been in the seeds of the Wheaties many of us were eating when we left years ago. 

At the core of any issues the Way has is how they view authority and make decisions. "Spiritual" leadership trumps everything else for them  - common sense, practical issues, planning, a "multitude of counsel". Nothing spells really spirituality for them like going against the grain. It's in the DNA there.  Even though they believe this "world is not my home, I'm just a - passing through", they work 24x7 non stop to earn their rewards. Once they convince someone that 1. their immediate well being depends on them doing what they tell them and 2. their eternal future "rewards" are at stake too....they're pretty much in their pocket. 

Organizationally, a single person can drive the whole thing into an iceberg and then blame everyone else from their lifeboat as the whole thing sinks. They think that's the right way to work, to run a business like the Way, to manage people, etc. etc. It does take a certain kind of person to embrace being right all the time and the burdens that comes with that. Someone else always has to be wrong, but it's never personal. It's just business.

So odds are that at some point any one person is going to be in conflict with the decisions of the organization and will be unable to affect the outcome, let alone change the decision. 

Everyone in the Way has reveled in how smart they are, how much better they live with the "accuracy and integrity of God's Word" that they and they alone have. 

Yet they live like weasels fighting over the same garbage can, year after year. It speaks for itself, really. 

 

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4 hours ago, socks said:

It does take a certain kind of person to embrace being right all the time and the burdens that comes with that. Someone else always has to be wrong, but it's never personal. It's just business.

I think that's about the size of it, Socks.

It's just business - to defame others, to blame them for everything that you don't like (on a whim or for some other reason).

It isn't love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, or even bearing another's burden.

One might wonder how these R&R signatories are faring in the real world without compelled followers or anyone who gives a shred of credence to what they're peddling; wonder if they have any regrets about how they oppressed those over whom they exercised "spiritual oversight," and how they castigated them when their "believing" seemingly failed to meet required standards; wonder if they're finding their leadership styles don't engender suitable awe in the secular workplace.

But nobody should wonder too much!!  Life's too short!!

 

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I've seen how some of them re invent their resumes for the benefit of employers who don't understand that "spiritual perception and awareness" is a really valuable skill.

I'd love to hear their answers to interview questions like "what do you think your greatest weakness is?"....how do you make "I can be a hateful lying bastard if I don't like you or I think you've done something to question my authority" sound good?

I lost track of what they Way offered as training. Back in my day it was Howard Allen or Harry Wierwille going on about keeping a ledger, writing lists, saving money, that kind of stuff. I learned some practical things that I was able to use later, but if I hadn't continued my education I'd be seriously ham strung. Public speaking and life coaching is big amongst ex-Wayfers from what I see - but unless someone has some real experience and a thick resume why would you want them teaching you that stuff? 

Anyhoo. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I watched 50 minutes of the video. I wouldn't have recognized anybody. I'd seen the Moynihands and Michael Fort before, just too long ago. At about 9:10 on the left side of the screen a woman was walking behind everybody in another room. Then she sat down and you could see her feet bobbing up and down periodically. At 44 minutes she was visible again and not long after that she walked away. Was that Melody?

It was interesting for me to see them and hear them talk, but I concur with several of the comments that followed. Back in 1994, when they did those 3 purges (debt, homo, and unproductive evil), twi changed from an open door, whosoever will may come, shucks, there ain't no strangers at the way...ministry to an elitist group. Before that, you could just be a joe believer without aspiring to be way corps and they treated you OK. Not anymore.

I did a timeline and I'd like to add to it. 

1975 - twi releases JCING, becoming an instant "cult" - 8K at ROA

1986 - After 11 years of persecution, Passing of Patriarch revealed, having great impact - 20 plus K at ROA

1989 - After 3 years of "fog" many exit twi...LCM responds w/loyalty letter, having some impact - 4Kat ROA

1994 = After 5 years of loyalty letter impact, LCM et al become puffed up with false confidence - 11K at ROA.

So, the people in that R&R video were all totally on board with the elitism LCM and later, RFR were the faces for. And now 25 years later they want us to believe their hearts are pure??? Not buying that! They still think they're eliter than thou. They just want to get paid for it better.

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1 hour ago, johniam said:

I watched 50 minutes of the video. I wouldn't have recognized anybody. I'd seen the Moynihands and Michael Fort before, just too long ago. At about 9:10 on the left side of the screen a woman was walking behind everybody in another room. Then she sat down and you could see her feet bobbing up and down periodically. At 44 minutes she was visible again and not long after that she walked away. Was that Melody?

It was interesting for me to see them and hear them talk, but I concur with several of the comments that followed. Back in 1994, when they did those 3 purges (debt, homo, and unproductive evil), twi changed from an open door, whosoever will may come, shucks, there ain't no strangers at the way...ministry to an elitist group. Before that, you could just be a joe believer without aspiring to be way corps and they treated you OK. Not anymore.

I did a timeline and I'd like to add to it. 

1975 - twi releases JCING, becoming an instant "cult" - 8K at ROA

1986 - After 11 years of persecution, Passing of Patriarch revealed, having great impact - 20 plus K at ROA

1989 - After 3 years of "fog" many exit twi...LCM responds w/loyalty letter, having some impact - 4Kat ROA

1994 = After 5 years of loyalty letter impact, LCM et al become puffed up with false confidence - 11K at ROA.

So, the people in that R&R video were all totally on board with the elitism LCM and later, RFR were the faces for. And now 25 years later they want us to believe their hearts are pure??? Not buying that! They still think they're eliter than thou. They just want to get paid for it better.

John, bingo!!  Great post!!

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8 hours ago, johniam said:

I watched 50 minutes of the video. I wouldn't have recognized anybody. I'd seen the Moynihands and Michael Fort before, just too long ago. At about 9:10 on the left side of the screen a woman was walking behind everybody in another room. Then she sat down and you could see her feet bobbing up and down periodically. At 44 minutes she was visible again and not long after that she walked away. Was that Melody?

It was interesting for me to see them and hear them talk, but I concur with several of the comments that followed. Back in 1994, when they did those 3 purges (debt, homo, and unproductive evil), twi changed from an open door, whosoever will may come, shucks, there ain't no strangers at the way...ministry to an elitist group. Before that, you could just be a joe believer without aspiring to be way corps and they treated you OK. Not anymore.

I did a timeline and I'd like to add to it. 

1975 - twi releases JCING, becoming an instant "cult" - 8K at ROA

1986 - After 11 years of persecution, Passing of Patriarch revealed, having great impact - 20 plus K at ROA

1989 - After 3 years of "fog" many exit twi...LCM responds w/loyalty letter, having some impact - 4Kat ROA

1994 = After 5 years of loyalty letter impact, LCM et al become puffed up with false confidence - 11K at ROA.

So, the people in that R&R video were all totally on board with the elitism LCM and later, RFR were the faces for. And now 25 years later they want us to believe their hearts are pure??? Not buying that! They still think they're eliter than thou. They just want to get paid for it better.

Once again, John and I agree on something!  (Say hello to Jean for me, please.)

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  • 1 month later...
On 5/13/2017 at 5:49 PM, skyrider said:

Rosalie moved over to vice-prez chair

I don't know if this was answered finally - I'm coming to this party pretty late - but RR only stepped away from being the president, but she is still the Chairman of the Board.  Sorry if this is a repeat of info.

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I fielded a couple questions recently on this group and their communications. I only know what I've seen online but note that it's Moynihan who says - 'nothing happens without leadership, and when we have great leadership things happen greatly'....

Given the last few decades and what they've being doing, I'd have to agree - it appears obvious that In the absence of anything close to "great" leadership in the Way ... nothing great has happened for many many years, unless you count leaving being great. In which case, now that they've left, perhaps...."great leadership"....might develop? I won't develop that idea further but this is why you can't trust what so many people say. They just don't really think about what they're saying but sometimes the truth comes out anyway...

Also the woman who emphasizes that the 'self governing, self propagating' aspect of the home fellowship has been "slowly taken away" is showing how blind they really are and have been. It was not slow, and for practical purposes once the 'Way Tree' was installed as a functional organizational tool that's been gone, going back to the early 70's. I would say that since Dr. Wierwille really hit the road looking to promote his newly filmed PFAL class, the organizational model of close corporate level control over everything has been in place. Certainly since the late 70's it's been impossible for any smaller ministry units like "twigs" to be truly self governing unless it's in strict "cooperation with the next higher level" of leadership. 

It wasn't slow by these peoples' timeline, some of them didn't even know about the Way until the 80's......edits were made to the pamphlet "First Century Church in the Twentieth" when it it went into the New Dynamic Church "The Green Book" that left out key parts of the early Acts model of growth. All classes related to the "Way Tree" and ministry outreach hammered the point of maintaining accountability to what the New Knoxville "leadership" said and did at "The Root". Allegiance to the "man of God" was promoted and the idea that you HAD to stand with him and the Way to be a "true believer" became essential long before Craig got a hold of it. (that's why Craig was able to step so easily into being a self serving Hitleresque President, the frame work already existed to keep all control within the BOT's, he just exercised it to a greater degree across all parts of the Way. )

Likewise for years and years there was a growing development of process and procedure for local fellowships to support the Way Nash by giving TO them and supporting them in all ways but little to no development of process and procedure for the Way Nash Trunk/Root level organizations BACK to support local fellowships - except in products and merchandise. The products of the ministry were books, classes, tapes and visits and assignment of Way leaders and teachers to live in areas where the ministry had work. But there was no real tangible connection to allow for the local expanding churches/twigs in a state to have autonomy amongst themselves. Everyone followed the same ministry calendar of events, parallel classes and concurrent meetings, plus attendance at all larger state and multi state meetings, reviews f the Way Magazine being done week after week, the SNS teachings being reviewed in twigs week after week - the only way or reason a local fellowship coordinator could be assured of exercising self governance was to just not tell his "next higher" level of leadership, to hide it. Which oddly was something even Dr. Wierwille advised regarding certain things....! Slowly taken away, indeed...............ah, kids, lotta things, but you gotta see it in the original to really appreciate it.  

It was hardly "slow" - it was actually rather quick, starting in about 1971 and moving forward from there. 

Edited by socks
Looked slightly askew, so I got out the ol' level. Thanks!!
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35 minutes ago, socks said:

Certainly since the late 70's it's been impossible for any smaller ministry units like "twigs" to be truly self governing unless it's in strict "cooperation with the next higher level" of leadership.

This bears repeating.

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1 hour ago, socks said:

All classes related to the "Way Tree" and ministry outreach hammered the point of maintaining accountability to what the New Knoxville "leadership" said and did at "The Root."

Maintaining accountability ...

Yes, everyone was accountable to some supposed higher level - branch,  limb,  etc - but the BoT (as it was when I was around), or BoD nowadays, didn't consider itself accountabe to anyone or anything.  They accounted for none of their actions, for none of the consequences of any words or "doctrine," and not for the money given to them in trust.

I love that churches I know of here have a proper structure and no one is left unaccountable.  That also means that leaders,  vicars,  etc, aren't left feeling either Godlike in power, nor, conversely, unsupported by those they serve. There's a lot to be said for accountability and orderliness. 

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On 1/15/2018 at 12:03 PM, socks said:

I'll stop, with that question and call it a year. But for those of us who have seen and heard this merry-go-round going round and round so many times over the years we know there's usually something going on a little deeper down that not everyone knows yet. Something that made it personal.....finally. 

I would pinpoint the rise and fall of the Moynihan family and Greene family.   Especially the second generation.  That would trigger this kind of action.  I guess Dottie just isn't quite as close to Rosie as Marcia is.   Brian was on staff as like the personnel director then left got sent on field.  Chandler now is the Corpse director.

Oh but of course great spiritual decisions of all these Reverend blowhards would never be decided by something like Hatfields and McCoys politics....

Until they are.

:spy:

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20 hours ago, socks said:

Certainly since the late 70's it's been impossible for any smaller ministry units like "twigs" to be truly...

...like members in the body of Christ, of which Christ (and Christ alone) is the head.

Paul spoke of the church with a comparison to the living human body, not some easily fossilizable structure fashioned after a tree. 

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I don't spend much time searching the scriptures these days... but in 1986, 32 years ago this month, I graduated from college with a degree in Accounting. During my senior year, still involved in twi, I thought a lot about accountability as practiced in that cult.

It very much occurred to me that twi was doing it bass-ackwards from how they did it in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles. While Twinky has a good point about everybody being accountable, at that time it was like a neon sign flashing all alone on an otherwise dark street at midnight for me that neither Wierwille nor Martindale nor anyone else making any policy in the group was being accountable to the people who supported them.

Servant leaders emulate Jesus Christ by (at least in attitude) washing the feet of those to whom they minister. Wierwille and Martindale expected the leaves on the tree to kiss their asses, buy them gifts and do them sexual favors.

Do the leaders of the R & R RR conduct themselves like servant leaders?

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27 minutes ago, Rocky said:

Do the leaders of the R & R RR conduct themselves like servant leaders?

Because the founders of the group are scattered around the country, it's difficult to say specifically regarding the whole group.  But I can speak about the local group I fellowship with.

No one is in charge, and no one from the R&R group tells us what to do or not do.  The homeowner keeps the calendar, only because then it's always there.  But no one is told when to teach or lead.  No one is told what to teach.  And all of us have been told they don't want any money, that if we want to give we should find someone else that is actually in need.  And the basis of that is what was ACTUALLY done in Acts.  The fallacy of the tithe has been obliterated.

The most highly touted principles of the group are decentralization, inclusion, and consensus.  Nothing is done in secret, nothing is decided in secret.  While it's still a work in progress, it has been so refreshing to be somewhere that is not stifling.  I actually, finally, want to invite people to my fellowship, something I haven't done in over 4 years.

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6 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

And, if you believe that, I’ve got a White House to sell ya!

You don't know these people.  You don't see what happens when we are together.  I'm telling you what has been happening, and you talk about believing?  Belief has nothing to do with it - it is evidenced.

You may know those R&R originators better than I, but you don't know anything about this local group.

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Oh yes I do Taxidev! I KNOW what  they are guilty of as well as THEY do. I KNOW they have yet to repent, as that is also evidenced every time they open their lying mouths. Evidenced! Funny you should choose that word. The Lord taught that we are to know them by their fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t bring forth good fruit! Again, as EVIDENCED over the last 45 years, their words and their fruit remain unchanged.....rotten. It’s not a matter of who knows whom “better”. It is a matter of EVIDENCE alright......good fruit vs bad fruit.

Fine with me if you choose to change what Jesus Christ taught. None of it was “to you” anyway, right? If you prefer anecdotal evidence over the evidence both God and His Son declare is the way to discern the authenticity of the behavior and actions of your “leaders”....i.e......production of good spiritual FRUIT....so be it. Your choice. Thank God for free will. I choose not to allow anecdotal evidence to determine “the accuracy” of God’s Word. I’d rather do it the way God says to than to do it the way Removal and Relocation says to!

You don't know these people.  You don't see what happens when we are together.  I'm telling you what has been happening, and you talk about believing?  Belief has nothing to do with it - it is evidenced.” Oh really? So I guess they’ve RE-written their “law of believing”, eh? Belef “has nothing to do with it”?? Then why would you care at all what the hell they believe? LOL! Again, Jesus Christ taught, “By their fruit shall ye know them”, not by your experiences with them.. Have you ever heard, “Experience is no guarantee of truth”? I could not care less “what happens when you’re together”. Nice stoh-rees, but no guarantee of truth. I’d rather experience the presence of their absent Jesus, than whatever happenings go on in their living rooms.

I do appreciate your time and effort to tell us the current “happenings” with Removal and Relocation in your area. It IS current, first-hand information regarding your experiences, AND, it is also evidence that they have not learned or changed a damn thing. Please post again when they have actually repented of their sins and their criminal behavior against The Body of Christ. Thanks again Taxidev.............peace.

 

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It’s probably just my jaded view of The Way International and offshoots talking here – but I think a lot of folks are just wasting their time – though I bet some are having fun pretending to be doing something of biblical significance.

I can’t take any of these folks seriously if they can’t come clean on their roots – i.e. repentance!... Where did they learn to interpret the Bible and who conferred on them a title? If it leads back to wierwille – I’ve got a problem with that…but maybe that’s just me...I think the Bible is pretty consistent on how important it is to expose erroneous doctrine and practice...but maybe that's just me, i dunno...

"fans" of offshoots need to consider the details of Luke 3 on repentance,

II Corinthians 7 on repentance and clearing oneself,

and Matthew 18 on biblical conflict resolution

Having been burned quite a few times by phonies and liars, I’ve come to the conclusion the best way to deal with religious phonies and liars is to ignore them. Maybe they should focus more on working an honest, legal job and spend less time feeding a life-sucking “hobby”. Woe unto those who buy into their soft-sell marketing.

 

oh yeah, wanted to add a word of caution to any wannabes with good intentions - buyer beware!

Edited by T-Bone
clarity
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5 hours ago, Taxidev said:

You don't know these people.  You don't see what happens when we are together.  I'm telling you what has been happening, and you talk about believing?  Belief has nothing to do with it - it is evidenced.

You may know those R&R originators better than I, but you don't know anything about this local group.

I don't doubt you one bit about this local group.  I don't doubt DWBH and others about the R&R originators, either.  If you're seeing great blessings locally and deliverance and healings or something (or some combinations along those lines), then that's what you're experiencing, and small wonder you'd stick around for that.

 

On the other hand, there's some people who saw lots of blessings locally- until HQ tightened the reins some time later.   That story's repeated itself in twi over, and over, and over.  If I were directly connected with any splinter group, regardless of the blessings, I'd keep an eye out for the temperature knob for the stove.  Sooner or later, someone is going to try to raise the temperature on the pot, and figure that- if it's done slowly enough- the frog won't notice the difference and won't jump clear, and will roast in the pot instead. These people had decades of training and experience in just that, and were fine with it for decades.  So, for me, the questions are "What will they do?" and "When will they do it?" not "Will they do something?"    To me, it's obvious that forming R&R was a step IN doing something FOR THEM.  I'm waiting to hear about their other steps

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7 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

Oh yes I do Taxidev! I KNOW what  they are guilty of as well as THEY do.

The people I'm with locally aren't the originators of R&R.  They homeowner is former way corps, but only having been a branch coordinator.  And he is the most loving and loved branch coordinator I've ever met, aside from one other.

 

7 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

So I guess they’ve RE-written their “law of believing”, eh? Belef “has nothing to do with it”?? Then why would you care at all what the hell they believe?

You have the wrong impression of what I wrote.  I was referring to my belief, when you said "And, if you believe that, I’ve got a White House to sell ya!"  They aren't trying to convince me of anything, I can see what is happening.  You, however, cannot, and have jumped to conclusions regarding my local group.

8 hours ago, DontWorryBeHappy said:

Please post again when they have actually repented of their sins and their criminal behavior against The Body of Christ.

The group I'm with have no criminal behavior to repent of, unless you consider receiving the tithes to be criminal.  I said I can't speak for what is happening with the original group, I can only speak for the local group I am with.  And they are wonderful.  They have been wonderful for as long as I've known them, which is since 2010.  They have never been on staff, and have been branch coordinators since their first assignment.  You may have reason to criticize the originators of R&R, but you are way off base criticizing these people.

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