Just a theoretical question here re: LCM

[Argus]

I was a marginal member of TWI for only about a year, from 1975-76 when I was in high school. The extravagent claims and confidence in the miraculous events claimed to be happening consistently intrigued me until I saw that those extravagent claims simply rarely if ever actually happened - at least, where anyone could actually see them. So I dropped out and lost track of TWI folks I knew until the Internet appeared; I was delighted, too, when my old twig leader showed up, entirely by chance, at my mom's memorial service after not seeing him for 20+ years. The folks in my twig were much nicer, it seems, than the overall karma of TWI.

I mention that mostly in reference to the question I am about to broach. It doesn't seem to have been approached in any other thread, at least none I've spotted. Obviously I missed the entire Dark Ages or Fog Years or whatever it was, and the entire loony-bin rule of L. Ron Hubbard, I mean, L. Craig Martindale.

He seems to have instituted an anti-homosexual bias to TWI that I do not in the slightest recall existing in my brief contact years before. The virulence of it is shocking - somewhere on the web there is a TWI anti-gay coloring book for kids. This publication strongly reminded me of the anti-Semitic children's book THE POISONED MUSHROOM written by sadist and insane Nazi Julius Streicher, rightly hung at Nuremburg for his actions.

All material after this point is OPINION, not stated as facts. Just to derail any lawsuits that might happen.

The gist of it is: I wonder if L. Craig Martindale is either a closet homosexual or at least a bisexual. While I am not a psychiatrist, and I myself am not gay or bi, I know that several of his behavior patterns closely match what many mainstream psychiatric sources cite as those of a homosexual or bisexual trying to hide, or who is ashamed of, his or her sexual orientation.

First off, in many of the photos I've seen, he looks like he's dressed to be in the band The Village People or other gay-oriented entertainment. The white jumpsuit? It's lovely, darling! It'd look good on Liberace, too.

I don't know if he was a dancer before he did Athletes Of The Spirit, and from what I've heard, he wasn't a dancer during or after he did that, either. While certainly not all male dancers are gay, I've done enough volunteer theater (lights and sound, thank you) to get a statistical appreciation for the unusual concentration of male gays in dance. It may well be less in Christian groups as my experience in theater does not include working with such.

Of course, people can dress oddly and not be gay. People can do dance and not be gay. The strongest clues are his virulent anti-homosexuality and his profligate, abusive heterosexuality. The TWI papers substantiate the former and the various lawsuits filed against TWI substantiate the latter enough to allow discussion of it here as fact, in my opinion.

It s a well known truism, or at least a widely held opinion among psychiatric workers, that the most vicious anti-homosexuals are the ones who are afraid to see it in the mirror. People comfortable with their own heterosexuality rarely feel threatened by homosexuals. I know I don't. His pathologically strong negative reaction would quite possibly indicate that he's unsure of himself, and doesn't like that at all.

Yes, the Bible seems to have one verse, in Romans I, condemning gays. It's interesting that it comes from someone else quoting Paul, not directly Paul, nor the voice of God or Jesus. What is even more interesting is that homosexuality is ony part of a long list of things in that same list found objectionable, many of which are glossed over or ignored when homosexuality is attacked. Why aren't these other crimes persecuted to the same extent? Is it because there are too many people that practice those other offences?

[26] For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

("Against nature" is an interesting claim, too; homosexual behavior has been observed hundreds of times in dozens of species besides humans. If it occurs in nature, how is it against nature? Human nature, perhaps, but not, it seems, nature as it's stated here.)

(Seems like "Fornication" is listed here too. But it's OK, it's in a different verse. I guess. "Without understanding" - ditto. ""Debate" - sounds like TWI needed MORE of that.)

That segues into an interesting thought. One of the easiest ways to distract attention from one's own failings is to accuse others of the same thing. "Get those eyes away from me! Look look, it's over there, not here! Go get them!" Is that what might have been happening here?

Next angle: It's true that people given such absolute, unchecked power such as what LCM enjoyed take advantage of thier exalted position to get as much sex as possible, with as many attractive partners as possible, and aren't necessarily gay. They're almost always still badly messed up, though. Josef Goebbels, the Minister of Propoganda in Nazi Germany, and Adolf Hitler's secretary Martin Bormann both had multiple affairs. (LCM, you're in good company here, eh? It's worth noting that Adolf Hitler, himself, was completely faithful to Eva Braun for many years. Very little if any evidence has ever been found to the contrary; he was apparently devoted to her as much as he ever allowed himself to be to anyone.) But many people who run through so many other-sex partners are also trying to prove how straight they are, to prove to THEMSELVES there's nothing "wrong" with them. "See? See? Look at all the women I've done. I'm not gay! I'm not. I'm NOT!" Once again, the misdirection strategy, the desperate costuming to cover up.......

Even if he wasn't gay..... such abuses of power and lack of self-control reflect poorly on TWI and its leadership. As did VPW's similar behaviours. A typical parent would get angry at his tenth-grade son for acting so swinishly. But it's OK for "the man of God for our times"? For someone who's supposed to lead, and be an example to people? Is this behavior unacceptable in, say, Bill Clinton, but OK in a church-group leader? If so, how?

Oh yeah, he married a bisexual, too, it seems. He supposedly got angry because she suddenly came out. Excuse me - how do you marry someone not knowing that, not figuring it out for years, then suddenly one day it's "Oh, er, 'bi' the way, honey..." Surprise, surprise, surprise! Were you just not paying enough attention, or somehow this never was discussed, or what? Or did they marry because they were similarly inclined - a pair of pinch hitters - and willing to tolerate each other's pecadillos? Perhaps he got mad when she decided her partner was more talented than he was, or maybe they booted him out in the cold one night? Poor baby.

It would not be enough evidence to convict LCM in a court of law - but people were thrown out of TWI, marked and avoided, on far less evidence, it seems. Perhaps some were partners of LCM, and had to be gotten rid of before they sang like canaries? Or perhaps LCM didn't want anyone around to tempt him, or who reminded him too strongly of what he tried to bury in his own psyche? Or, again - to distract critics away from his own perceived weakness or aberration?

One last thought: Jesus Himself seems to have taught tolerance, love of others, and to turn the other cheek. Sadly, this lesson seems to have been overlooked, ignored or abused through much of history, causing many deaths and untold misery. What if homosexuality exists as a Litmus test - to give some people a condition that many others, for whatever reason, find unattractive, or difficult to accept - to test their ability to apply some of His toughest teachings? Did TWI leadership fall on their faces, and make a C- on a final exam with this?

Once again, this is all opinion.

These thoughts are delivered AS IS, with no warranty express or implied, and are the UNPROVEN, THEORETICAL OPINIONS of the author, placed here solely for debate and discussion.

[Stayed Too Long]

Welcome Argus! You can be thankful you missed the past 30 years of TWI. Your points about the 'closet homosexual' are well documented and LCM fits the mold quite well.

[markomalley]

Just a thought:

Couldn't it be possible that he is just a hate-filled, womanizing, redneck Okie? (no offense to anybody from Oklahoma)

I remember this running "joke" when I was in the Air Force:

A particularly spiteful commander referred one of his troops to the base's Alcohol Rehabilitation Committee, because the troop overslept for work a couple of days.

The counselor asked the troop, "How long have you had this drinking problem?"

The troop replied in horror, "Sir, I am a born again Christian. Alcohol has never touched my lips!"

The counselor immediately referred him for inpatient rehab. In his report he wrote, "The airman denied he had a drinking problem. Denial is the dominant symptom of the abuser. So its obvious he is in need of immediate intervention."

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Argus...Welcome to the GreaseSpot!...and such an "invigorating" first post! :P

Yes indeed, many of us here have suspected the hidden sexual proclivities of Loy Martinfail for some time now...

His almost hysterical fear of homosexuals seemed to be "against nature" to me. Perhaps he thought that if he had sexual intercourse with enough women, and that if he shouted loudly enough against homosexuals...that he himself might be "cured" of this "affliction".

His unseemly behavior, which included the total disregard for other people, is an indication that "something" might have happened in his childhood to trigger his sociopathic lifestyle. His total disregard for people's feelings, his abuse towards women, his total lack of respect for the institution of marriage...all point towards some deep seated and hidden "problems" in his subconscious mind.

In retrospect, I believe that he was an extremely insecure man...His own ego was more important to him than his responsiblities as a Christian minister. He thought nothing of trashing another person's life in order to make himself feel important. Was he a homosexual?...probably so.

[def59]

By that logic, Michael Moore, John Kerry, and Barabar Streisand are conservatives they way they trash people's lives and condemn conservatives.

[Belle]

"He doth protest too much, methinks."

Many have speculated about LCM's closeted battle with homosexuality. It's well known that he had no problem having threesomes with two women, so he justified it on some level.

The gay men I work with often laugh about the extremely "homophobic" men because they say many of them are the ones you'll find trying to be incognito at gay bars or advertising online because they don't want to be "outed". I think there's definitely something to your observations, Argus.

Welcome to the Cafe! Great first post!

[Brother Speed]

By that logic, Michael Moore, John Kerry, and Barabar Streisand are conservatives they way they trash people's lives and condemn conservatives.

Nope, bad logic. There is no stigma for being conservative nor is being conservative a sin.

[Ham]

First off, in many of the photos I've seen, he looks like he's dressed to be in the band The Village People or other gay-oriented entertainment. The white jumpsuit? It's lovely, darling! It'd look good on Liberace, too.

Kinda made me wonder a little too..

Probably exhibitionist too, at that.. the white jumpsuit, well.. made some things very apparent..

[Thomas Loy Bumgarner]

Argus, Welcome to GSC. Don't know about Martindale, but rumors have suggested that his former wife

Donna Lombardi Martindale was bisexual/lesbian, especially with the present president Rosie Rivenbark.

Edited October 11, 2005 by Thomas Loy Bumgarner

[rhino]

First off, in many of the photos I've seen, he looks like he's dressed to be in the band The Village People or other gay-oriented entertainment. The white jumpsuit? It's lovely, darling! It'd look good on Liberace, too.

:lol: I'm betting Donna laid his clothes out for him .. she and Rosie prolly got a big kick out of it.

[Nato]

It's well known that he had no problem having threesomes with two women, so he justified it on some level.

I know the court documents mention Martindale and threesomes. Not only that, I've talked to other sources who know that in addition to threesomes, he also just like to watch two women engaging in the act. That it was one of the big things he was into.

[Belle]

Rhino:

I'm betting Donna laid his clothes out for him .. she and Rosie prolly got a big kick out of it.

:lol: :P :lol: :P :lol:

Friggin' Hilarious!!!!

Welcome, Nato! Sure is "odd" how he yelled and ranted and raved about it while practicing it behind closed doors. I wonder what those women thought when they would hear him going on and on about how horrible homosexuality is. Did he justify it by saying it was only man-o-man-o acts?

[Seth R.]

Argus,

Welcome, I think I will enjoy reading your posts in the future.

One year in TWI is enough to qualify you as one of us.

Come back and post again soon.

"From my secret lair annex: The Stratford, NJ Burger King"

Seth

[Argus]

Wow. (No pun intended, 1975 members!) I wrote this over seven years ago, and only now have found my way (again, NPI) back here. It's kind of like the Marco Polo story of the Internet.

I thank you all, years later, for the warm and generous words.

I'd also like to say that the 1975-76 members of the Morganton NC twig were remarkably patient with me at the time. I'm also pleased to say that many of us have re-established friendships decades later. It's also just a bit gratifying that several of them said, once we were communicating again, that I had been right all along. A brash and snotty teenager with an overdose of scientific and critical thinking came out ahead. It's like the precursor to THE BIG BANG THEORY.

TWI just didn't pass the "sniff test" for me. The claims were too extravagant, the answers too pat. There was no real setup for non-believers beyond "just believe". That may be a defect of all faiths, but this was my first close examination of one, and it did not impress. 99.99% of it all was discussions by bought-in believers for bought-in believers, and it left me out in the cold. And it's not as though the lives of people inside were any happier or more prosperous than people outside. There WAS a lot of self-reinforcement, reminding each other of how happy they were.

The major philosophy of pay first and believe later sure didn't help. Even at 15, I had a pretty good idea of how cons worked, and getting the money first is key. Now, I did eventually fork over the $85 and took PFAL, which left me unimpressed. But I also got that money back! That little green card people signed when they paid constituted a contract - a signed document with exchange of valuta for good and/or services. I was under 18, and had the legal right to nullify a signed contract; I learned that by accident when I overhead my mom say that when she was studying for her real estate broker's license. So I wrote TWI headquarters and told them this, and with no further ado they sent me a check for the full amount! YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN my mom's face, and the chief guidance counselor's face at my high school, when they saw that!! I still have the check stub, framed and everything.

[Twinky]

Woh, Argus, you got your money back?! :drink:/> Many others would like to do that.

I spent 2 yrs in rez with LCM as Prez and never thought he was a homosexual. However, the vehemence of his persecution made me wonder if he was hiding something. But I knew nothing of homosexuality (male or female) at that time and he'd probably have to be the campest gay you could imagine... It never occurred to me that head honcho wouldn't be "doing the word."

Later, I thought his vehemence was due to Donna taking up with Rosie and his increasing feelings of powerlessness, loss of control, and himself being manipulated that brought out all the anger he displayed. He was permanently angry. He called it "spiritual anger" and encouraged it to spread through the whole ministry.

I've never heard these allegations of threesomes or him watching two women at it. Not in all the years I've been reading these threads.

[waysider]

There WAS a lot of self-reinforcement, reminding each other of how happy they were.

TWI would have never survived without it.

[chockfull]

While questioning the source of Craigs homophobic tendencies is hilarious, I don't know how accurate it is. I mean after all, throughout his "men in tights" time in Athletes he was much too preoccupied with banging the seed of the serpent actress to have much time to develop his gay gene.

[johniam]

quote: There is no stigma for being conservative nor is being conservative a sin.

LOL

Tell that to CNN or any other mainstream media outlet.

[WordWolf]

Here's what we know.....

We know that Donna decided she was going to marry someone in twi who was a rising star.

We suspect that vpw "knew" her.

We know that lcm went to vpw when he decided he should get married, but didn't

have a prospective wife in mind.

Later, lcm tells vpw he decided on Donna.

(Based on the above, it is my SPECULATION that Donna heard lcm was looking and

made her move then. She was overheard once saying that-once she heard lcm was

really going to be it in twi, she focused on him.)

vpw went off immediately afterwards to talk to her.

Most of that was from lcm's recollections, "VP and Me."

It's obvious, when reading this, it wasn't a marriage based on love in EITHER

direction.

We also know, based on eyewitness accounts, Donna had relations with women

on campus, and off-campus, she shared hotel rooms with one bed with Rosalie.

===================

My knowledge is limited on some things.

I know his knee-jerk reactions often centered around "dumb jock", so it would

be no surprise to see lcm turn into a bully or freak out at homosexuals while

dismissing other sinful behaviors and not giving them a second thought.

I've heard he liked to watch women get it on. Unless he was a LOT stupider than

I think he was, he had to know about Donna's proclivities. Did he think he'd

get to watch? Did he get to watch? I can guess, but that's just a guess.

When lcm was undermined before he was kicked out, it was Donna and Rosalie who

were backstabbing him. Did that affect his thinking?

lcm seemed to harp on homosexuality a lot-but so far, we've heard no accounts

that he actually engaged in homosexual activities. Speculation that the SOLE

reason he raged about it at length was because he was harboring latent

homosexual impulses are just that-speculation. Since we have an absence of

evidence to support the idea- no eyewitness accounts of any type-

we should look to other answers unless something turns up.

[Allan]

Here's what we know.....

We know that Donna decided she was going to marry someone in twi who was a rising star.

We suspect that vpw "knew" her.

We know that lcm went to vpw when he decided he should get married, but didn't

have a prospective wife in mind.

Later, lcm tells vpw he decided on Donna.

(Based on the above, it is my SPECULATION that Donna heard lcm was looking and

made her move then. She was overheard once saying that-once she heard lcm was

really going to be it in twi, she focused on him.)

vpw went off immediately afterwards to talk to her.

Most of that was from lcm's recollections, "VP and Me."

It's obvious, when reading this, it wasn't a marriage based on love in EITHER

direction.

We also know, based on eyewitness accounts, Donna had relations with women

on campus, and off-campus, she shared hotel rooms with one bed with Rosalie.

===================

My knowledge is limited on some things.

I know his knee-jerk reactions often centered around "dumb jock", so it would

be no surprise to see lcm turn into a bully or freak out at homosexuals while

dismissing other sinful behaviors and not giving them a second thought.

I've heard he liked to watch women get it on. Unless he was a LOT stupider than

I think he was, he had to know about Donna's proclivities. Did he think he'd

get to watch? Did he get to watch? I can guess, but that's just a guess.

When lcm was undermined before he was kicked out, it was Donna and Rosalie who

were backstabbing him. Did that affect his thinking?

lcm seemed to harp on homosexuality a lot-but so far, we've heard no accounts

that he actually engaged in homosexual activities. Speculation that the SOLE

reason he raged about it at length was because he was harboring latent

homosexual impulses are just that-speculation. Since we have an absence of

evidence to support the idea- no eyewitness accounts of any type-

we should look to other answers unless something turns up.