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Insanity is often quoted as......"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ..........but with cult-splinter insanity, I find myself wondering if they are doing the same thing over and over again desiring the SAME results. With nearly 20 years of internet exposure..... Waydale and Greasespot Café.......surely IF these corps leaders had an ounce of integrity and empathy for others, they'd see the errors of their ways, no? What do ALL of the cult offshoots have in common? A self-appointed leader claims to have "the Word" and teach "it" to others. He offers up dissention and disagreements with martindale or rivenbark........and gives wierwille adulation. Without objective reflection and further seminary training or study, he tweaks the wierwille-teachings only slightly. Same pyramid structure is implemented..........same centralization, same lording over others, same rules on giving money. Now that you've met the *new boss, same as the old boss*..........how can you possibly expect DIFFERENT RESULTS? After exiting The Way International Cult.........how many got entrapped into another splinter group for another decade or more? Insanity right? And, within these various splinters......how many more twisted perversions were promoted and propagated by the spiritual elite (cough, cough) among us? The Geer group plunged into the posthumous indoctrinations of geer's idol, wierwille. CES/STFI grafted in new age, self-help quackery like Momentus and personal prophesies and nose spiders. Egads! And, CFF took you back to the nostalgia "good old days of twi" when that young blood was coursing thru your veins. Oh, the memories....... Here a splinter, there a splinter.............everywhere there is ANOTHER splinter. Whether the R&R group will get rooted is still questionable.......but Rico's upstart - Oikeos is another baby cult that is flailing its arms and legs. Nourished on the milk of "Wierwille's Word" this infant will grow up in the image of wierwille...........same result, same outcome as its mother-cult. IMO.........these splinters have NOTHING to do with serving and ministering to others, but rather are SELF-SERVING OVERLORDS. These corps cleave to the cult model, because they have no real-life job experience in the real world. At best, they would be hard to find middle management jobs, sales jobs or seek self-employment. There are near-zero employers out there who are willing to hire a 56-66 year old man who has been fossilized into an obscure "Christian" group for 35 or 40 years. Two years ago, I documented a timeline of my experiences during the Martindale Era.....Insanity on Steroids.......and it was crazy then. But now, seeing these corps who stayed ANOTHER 17 YEARS of Rivenbark's Reign of Error.........and now, wanting to claim the mantle of *Leadership* is laugh-out-loud appalling. What a bunch of weasels. Until they clean and sanctify themselves from all of wierwille cult, top to bottom, thoroughly and throughly............they are a blight on the body of Christ. They disappoint and diminish and destroy by seeking opportunities for filthy lucre's sake. Beware of their pernicious ways as they twist and pervert words to indulge and profit in this seduction. They seek those who've had their minds grooved with cult indoctrination and servitude, rather than do the hard work of reaching others. Beware of cults. Beware of groupthink. "In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. " Friedrich Nietzsche

When the rapture does take place, the world will not know it because so many people who CALL themselves Christians will still be here.

Gimme the sermon I heard in church last Sunday, any time. I really think that many of these people at R&R started out with a desire to love God, but got sidetracked along the way, fell into the ego tramp, and now they're climbing the greasy pedestal. Mary likes to hang about and talk to people, especially newbies. Is that because it gives her the opportunity to show off her supposed knowledge? It'd be nice if one or some of them spoke about the six months or year or more that they had spent volunteering daily (or at least weekly) at a shelter for homeless people, or for battered wives, or helping drug addicts, prostitutes, child laborers, and such like. You know, the ones with no money and a hard attitude to life. The ones who call "do-gooder" hypocrisy for what it is. Some place these teachers get their hands dirty in the sh-t of life. Fab opportunities to see people really turn their lives around; it's a very slow process.

So do you get your salvation back after 20 years if you are good? hahaha :)

Hi There, I recently left TWI almost two years ago after being involved for 27 years. I'm still trying to unwind it all, but I do want to say that over the years I would look at the information in this group and it helped me to eventually come out of TWI. I got involved when I was 13. Met my husband at The ROA, went Way Disciple Group 5, I don't know how often I will be able to come here, but I would love to talk with others who have done it too. Thanks.

Thanks Grace, I haven't been around here much for a long time, and had never seen that link from Penworks (Thx, Penworks, BTW), but on all the other pretty current. I was at the reading of POP at corps week in '86. Have read portions since. My gawd, that poor man, look at the burden on him and how he really serves and shields the MOGFOT and how he tries so hard, and no matter what he just keeps trying, and the hurt and pain of OUR beloved MOGFOT, oh, I wish I had been there.....sob sniff tears.....NOT. I also know two fellas, 8th and 10th, who flew to Gartmore with another Rev back then to get an OK to go around the overturned eighteen wheel "Yuk" twig, or get instructions on what to do. They wanted to see Geer. These three were doing the run around on their higher ups at HQ. Another mutiny inside a mutiny like the little Russian dolls. The one where DWBH was confronting all of 'em seems like. They were going to wrest back this "thing" away from them, or do whatever had to be done, and get it back on track. And, it would have been just as awful. Firstly, DWBH would have had to confront at least one of them, too. That was a sprout of the first offshoot...it died. Asked my old Bro' in person 3 years ago, "Why did you go?" "To find out how to save the minus-try." Said his plan had always been a "career" in the minus-try. He had climbed up to Limb Coor. by '85. "So, what did he tell you? Anything? Or, did he just sorta' look at you with that psychzoid I'm getting revelation don't mess with me kinda' look?" Hardly nothing, he says....a whole week! Hope they were Scotch drinkers! Hope it wasn't raining on your parade there in sunny Scotland! Honestly? It's really kinda' super hard to see miracles and have joy and love and those things without the Holy Spirit, who, best guess, had to grievingly depart from Twit, if it ever was really there much at all because of the corruption and sin. But, to me, most especially, the Holy Spirit had to leave because of the denial of Who Jesus really is...the Christ...the Logos in Person! Not a Book. Found in That Book...not the Book. Knows my name, every hair counted, loves me as the Good Shepherd that He is, Was, Always shall be. Mine. His. He's spoken of in the banned books section of the Twit archives: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That's where I met Him before the way. He's still there. And, it seems, from what I've read, it didn't take long after the first coups of Heefner and Doop (not quite my time yet) for the fabric to begin to fray. Anyway, Grace, thank you. Boy, I sailed away on that one.

Welcome to this site, sastain, where you'll read many posts that reveal other sides to The Way story than what you'll find on its website or from Wierwille's loyalists. I was in the 2nd Way Corps (with Gerry Wre*n) and a member of VPW's research team. So I invite you to check out my own website at https://charleneedge.com for blogs on cults and fundamentalism, and The Way. Cheers to expanding our understanding of our Way experiences! Charlene Edge

1. "Sadly, I cannot get this man to accept the notion that the Bible really is the word of God." Ok, let's start there. The Bible never calls itself the Word of God. That's part of the problem right there. The Bible speaks of the Word of God quite often, but it never has the self-awareness to declare itself to be that Word. Maybe, just maybe, you can be wrong about the Bible being the Word of God and still be a good Christian. 2. "I think he would like it to be..." Well, no one asked you what you think, did they? Maybe he has no preference one way or another and is just waiting for you to make a plausible case for your thesis. 3. "... but is overly obstinate and has an awful attitude towards God and his plan for man's redemption." A lot to unpack there. Has it occurred to you that maybe YOU're the one being "obstinate" with an "attitude" that won't budge no matter how many facts he presents to counter your preconceived notion that the Bible is the Word of God? Like, maybe YOU're the stubborn one, not him? Because he shows you the Bible, and you start making excuses. Oh, that's the Old Testament. God's different now. He's really kind and gentle. He did what he did before because he HAD to to fulfill the plan of redemption. Problem: The plan of redemption is only the plan of redemption because God wanted it that way. It didn't have to be. He could just accept an apology without shrugging his shoulders and saying oh well because someone found a particular fruit of a particular tree to yummy to pass up (He also could have put that tree ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET but instead put it right in front of two people who did not know good and evil; then said don't eat from that tree. Not exactly a strong case for omniscience. It's like I put a cookie on the table in front of my 7-year-old and said "Don't eat that," then walked out of the room. He's gonna eat the cookie. I'm not all knowing, and I know that). So your friend, I submit, is not stubborn. Rather, he's amused at the contortions you'll twist yourself into to deny what's obviously written. There IS not idiom of permission in the Bible. Bullinger, for what he's worth, appears to be the only one who makes an issue of it. It's hardly a scholarly consensus. The existence of other figures of speech does not verify the "idiom of permission" as something the Bible employs on a regular basis. It is, however, an extraordinarily convenient tool for believers to employ whenever their holy book shows God doing what no good God would ever do, even though the book is unambiguous about it being God who did it. But that's just the old testament. Unless, of course, you're holding back tithes from the apostles in Acts, which is New Testament. (Oh, but it doesn't say God did that. It was Satan -- even though the Bible doesn't say THAT either). The Bible is filled with examples of God saying he'll do something and then saying He did it. It doesn't say he allowed it to happen or he allowed Satan to do it. It says HE did it. Now, it COULD have said he allowed Satan to do it, very easily. Look at Job. Satan did those things. It says so. Yeah, he got God's permission, but it says that, clearly. There's no ambiguity, and there's no "this is how it works normally." A figure of speech is supposed to be a statement that is true in essence though not literally true. "It's raining cats and dogs" is a figure of speech. "This car can stop on a dime" is a figure of speech. A figure of speech is not supposed to be a way for you to get the Bible to say the opposite of what it clearly says just because what it clearly says is inconvenient for your theology. God ordered the execution of a man for picking up sticks on the sabbath. He didn't give man permission to kill the offending sabbath breaker. He gave man an order -- cast those stones! God didn't allow divorce. He prescribed it. He didn't allow Satan to kill all the firstborn of Egypt. He had it done. And he DID have a choice. When my kid offends me, I have a choice how to discipline him. You have no idea how many times my discipline has stopped short of killing him because he did his chores between sunset on Friday night and Saturday night! So here's a thought. Bear with me: Maybe your friend isn't the stubborn one in this equation. Maybe he's not the one being inflexible. Maybe, just maybe, he's given this far more thought than you have.

Yes, Engine, I remember who K.F. was. His insisting people stand up when he entered the room definitely was something VPW taught us early Way Corps people. It was worse with men and women he ordained who assumed they represented God wherever they went. So much ego, so much b.s.

mmph mmmpphh mmmmmphhh mmmmphhh!!!!!!!! MMMPH!!!! You are indeed entitled to your opinion and belief. You are not entitled to make assertions of fact without anyone challenging the assertion. Prove you produced a language. "It sounded like one to me" is not proof. You don't have to "ponder" what to speak to fake a language. In fact, you have to NOT, surprisingly enough. We discussed this ad nauseum in another thread. Feel free to explore it. It got a little out of hand at times (mea culpa) but the gist of the thread holds up. SIT is obscenely easy to fake.

I got involved in Sept. 2009. In the following 2 1/2 years i went to all the classes, including advanced class and met and married my husband (he was in for 40 years), I saw so much unbiblical and unloving (downright nasty and hateful) behavior that I would have left by a year later. Eventually my husband saw these behaviors directed at me and we finally left together in 2017. Im an old hippie rebel, non-conformist and never really fit the mold.

It would not surprise me to find out that the Montana connection has something to do with Steve Sann. Wanna bet?? LOL!

When I think about my time in the Way Corps, I don't think I ever really fully identified with being a minister. I mean I was invested, and spent my early adulthood trying to be one, but I was always suppressing a part of myself to do so. Since I left TWI, I have spent years trying to rediscover who I truly am, and what my own ambitions are. I have observed that a lot of people never find their way back to themselves. They want to recapture that thing they had where they were important, and listened to, and looked up to. They think that's who they are and nothing else feels right. And you can't easily integrate into any other religious setting. So you roll your own. I feel sympathy for them. I notice as a cult survivor, I have a certain proneness to cult-like groups of all stripes. Art cults, fitness cults, education cults. I see them everywhere. I'm trying to understand and heal the part of me that needs them. Not posting as a counter point, just some additional thoughts. PEACE.

Thanks DWBH.......appreciate it. This cult-splinter insanity strikes me again and again........when corps exit the twi-cult and start their own splinter groups. They desire to have the SAME RESULTS as the cult they left behind (cough, cough).......perks, privileges, adulation, no accountability, meals and travel reimbursed, leisure and flexibility, and control over others! Gawd........it is so damn obvious, NOW. With swelling words of vanity, they make merchandise of others. False teachers hiding their seductive ways (II Peter 2). Always a "teaching" ministry........ever-teaching and never coming to a knowledge of the Word Incarnate, Jesus Christ.

It's never a good sign when you have to keep changing your group's name so that people don't know who you are. So, "The Revenant Process" and "Blood and Ethos" and "Master Coaches Academy" and "Efficacius" are all MOMENTUS with a name-change and some window-dressing? Oh, don't forget "Life Design Coaching" , "Legendary Life Strategy" and "the Hero Being Process." That's a LOT of names to lose in the shuffle, all for Momentus, which people steer clear of because they've been warned. https://www.therevenantprocess.com/ https://www.bloodandethos.com/ A "revenant" is a mythic creature, a corpse that drags itself from its grave to haunt the living, and folklorists use it interchangeably with "vampire". The name translates, roughly, as "one who returns." Yeah, Momentus dragged itself from its grave to haunt the living. Sounds about right.

Jim, if you have the date of the story, the name of the paper, and the names of anyone ANYONE involved (like, say, the person who wrote the story), I can hunt it down. This is not.hard.at.all. The notion that journalists would not be interested in verifiable miracles taking place at hospitals is absurd on its face. And someone who was dead for TWO WEEKS only to hpp back up and ask for a filet-o-fish would have made international headlines. People here are being way too nice. This story is horse manure.

Thanks Everyone. I appreciate the warm welcomes. I honestly have no idea how many people are left there. They keep that stuff pretty close to the vest. I can say though, that when I went WayD in '99 there were probably 50 to 60 people going out on the field from Gunnison, the West of the Mississippi group. The last WayMag I saw had pics of the folks going out and the groups were significantly smaller, as in the 5 to 10 range. Also, a development that would affect the numbers involved is the split that was the final straw for us. Yes, there has been another split up. A number of WayCorps had apparently started a group to discuss some grievances that they wanted to address to address to Rivenbark about how she was running things and how people were not seeing signs, miracles, and wonders. And the teaching from HQ had become uber stale. Ok, so I'm trying to remember and I may have some of details wrong, but this is what happened to the best of my recollection. This group began calling themselves Revival and Restoration, because their original intent was to reform TWI not leave it. I believe they first sent a letter outlining their "challenges" and solutions, and their intent to be respectful and work together with the BOD to figure it all out. I think they did call for the resignation of Rivenbark though. Anyways, Rico Magnelli, I think, had a meeting with her after the letter was sent where she summarily dismissed everything and, If my recollection is correct basically fired him. The letter was signed by some names you might know like Fort, Roberts, Moynihan, Horney, and Carter, to name a few. Anyways, this group had a list of grievances, including financial transparency, BOD accountability, and punishment of way corp for questioning Rivenbark etc. There were quite a few accusations. Anyways, our branch coordinators, whom we loved very much, were dropped in a backhanded way of just not being given an assignment. Also, the folks who had been our area coordinators for only a year, The Stiles were dropped for questioning Rivenbark. So this group has broken off from TWI and has reformed. Last I knew they were still calling themselves Revival and Restoration. My husband and I had been eyeing the door for some time, so we took it as our opportunity to leave. I still love many people involved in both groups, but I am not interested in being a part of any of them. I've had my fill of authoritarianism. I have the letters and other emails describing what went down. Maybe I'll go back through them and refresh myself, idk. I know some of you said you left around the time I joined, which was only a couple of years after "the fog" in 1990. When I first joined my fellowship was a very relaxed sort of hippyish deal. I smoked my first joint there, and had sex with someone in that fellowship for the first time. As time went on it became more and more controlling, and much more conservative. At one point we were instructed that it wasn't wise to go anywhere alone. Also, we were supposed to let the state leadership of any group know if we were even just traveling through their state so that we would be "spiritually covered." My husband and I, who were in our early 20's, were thoroughly reamed out at a meeting in front of everyone of course, that we attended on a trip we were taking because we hadn't let anyone know we would be in that state on our way to our destination. There was a "homo hunt" at the rock of ages in 95. Martindale became obsessed with homosexuality and in included in his version of the foundational class The Way of Abundance and Power that the thing that Eve partook of was a lesbian relationship with Satan who appeared as a woman, and Adam accepted it. (They subsequently just left that whole thing out of the foundational class they recorded after he was kicked) I often wondered if it was because of the alleged relationship between Donna and Rivenbark. When everything went down with LCM we were instructed not to look up anything to do with anything about the ministry or any of the people involved on the internet. Of course, this was to "protect us from the fiery darts of the wicked." After LCM left, everything became super boring and repetitive. Say what you will about him, but LCM was at least charismatic and entertaining. Rivenbark has a quieter gentler form of control and abuse. Over the years people tried to get us to move to HQ, but I was always struck at how robotic and fake anyone who went there came back. We actually did end up deciding to go into the way corps in 2003, and had all of our paperwork in when I ended up accidentally getting pregnant with our first child. Thank God for that. By the time we were eligible again, my husband had decided it wasn't for him. Shortly after I found out we were pregnant we moved back to my home state because I wanted my kids to have their grandparents close, and my father was dying. I was a new mom and I was traveling the hour and a half to visit my dad as much as possible and my fellowship coordinator had the audacity to "encourage me to spend more time with the household that I was." At that point I had started to see how much the ministry had come between my family and myself and I was trying to heal those relationships. I basically told him that my father was dying and I was going to get every minute I could with him and that I would never again put the ministry before my family and he would just have to get used to it. That was the first time I ever remember standing up for myself. from there it took 14 more years to officially leave. That's the short version of everything. It wasn't all bad, but I'm still working through things. I feel like an idiot at times for letting some of the stuff go on, or being involved with some of the things I was. For the last couple of years since leaving I have thrown myself into other things. I think I just needed some distance. After appearing on a podcast to talk about my experiences a few months ago, I have started to realize I need to work through some of this stuff now. I appreciate your listening. I'm sorry if this jumps around and is choppy. I find myself a little lost for words when it comes to some of this stuff, which is very unusual for me.

Considering one of my first posts on GSC was asking how to recover creativity and imagination after involvement with TWI, I have come a long way. The Way taught us that there was a devil spirit around every corner and all things bad were caused by them. I took this concept and made it part of the world my book is set in. And the way possession works in this book is very similar to the way it is explained in the Advanced Class. Treating their fictions and fiction felt really good.

Hearty congratulations, JavaJane! Book writing is no small feat, I know. I wish you much success with getting the word out about your story. You can rest assured that your efforts will help people near and far, and its journey will reward you with lots of surprises. Cheers to the healing process via writing and reading! Warmest wishes, Charlene Edge P.S. If you want to contact me, I would love to hear from you. Just send a message through https://charleneedge.com/contact

Wuttup Beaches?

Attention: Skyrider is running a 3-part series this weekend........February 23 and 24. The Bourne Identity The Bourne Supremacy The Bourne Ultimatum Open discussion will follow movie series........detailing aspects of intense-indoctrination, discovery and survivor. No charge. Bring your own sleeping bag. Popcorn and beer will be provided.

I have no problems with testimonials. They’re everywhere for anything and everything! I DO have a problem with the smarmy charm and the slick rap of a “spiritual” grifter for self-dealing. That is NOT a testimonial. It is a con. And, in this case, a necessary cover-up of criminal, anti-Christ behavior over a long period of time. I do not patronize or accept these kinds of mentally ill people, I confront them and get them to seek treatment. THAT is both the correct and Christian thing to do, dontchya think???

Hi Mamouda. Welcome to the café. Yep, you'll be shocked at some of the "behind the scenes" things you discover here. Be prepared to be horrified. Geer was an arrogant prig and what you say is no surprise. There's a thread about him in Way in Europe or some such forum. He "established" Gartmore, caused a rift among the trustees that ripped TWI in half, and lurked in Gartmore plotting more of the same. I think he is now back in Maine or some such. Gartmore was sold years ago. There are threads on that, here; enter "Gartmore" in the search box and you will find some relevant threads. Sexual abuse was rampant and you will find many first and second hand reports here. There were court cases about Martindale and that's what got him thrown out, but Wierwille was never brought to justice. You talk about your "country coordinator" - which country were/are you in? (PM me if you don't want to say publicly) Anyway, we are way off topic here! Have fun browsing.

Links to news articles where the information was reported publicly.

Ok, let's see. These people have said a lot of things that sound like sound teaching. Then again, so did vpw, and he was plagiarizing and considered the twi budget to be his own piggy bank. (And made merchandise of the people, and so on...) They set up the name and website for the ex-twi group while announcing they wanted to try to reform twi, and set up the new group while in twi. (Which is what vpw did- he had his twi original group going for years while he was on the church payroll before he resigned his pastorage.) What else do we have here, among all of the "talking a good game?" "There is not a single individual controlling the group, it is a handful of people controlling the group. And they are tightly knit." Welcome back to the us-and-them. The cadre runs the show, everyone else is second-tier or lower, and has neither voice nor vote on anything. "There is basically a handful of regulars that do the teachings, with the occasional cameo appearance of someone fairly close but not in the true inner circle. " There's a token presence of others, otherwise there's a tier of teachers and that's that.If that was all, it wouldn't be that bad. But it is NOT all... "They are following the teachings of VPW almost entirely, with some modifications here and there, and they all praise VPW almost without exception. " All hail the plagiarizing rapist! He claimed to hear from God while ripping all his material off other Christians- but surely he actually got it all from God. He claimed to have had a Special Connection to God, and he would never have lied about that- we have his assurances he was legit! Let's pretend he really heard from God in 1942 as he claimed almost 30 years later! " There hasn't been any interest expressed as to what we are interested in hearing more about, or topics of interest at all. " There are the insiders, and there's all you jerks. All you jerks need to listen, support the group, buy their stuff, and pay 10% of your income. In return, be thankful they are teaching and selling and keep your fool mouth shut! You have a subject you want to hear taught? Tough! They teach what they want and are not accountable to you as a whole. "While many of the teachings are well done, few have any real relevance to me, and some of them aren't good at all, wandering around a topic like the teacher has no real direction. My situation is unique, and they are just blowing their own horns, showing what they know about a particular topic because that's what they feel like teaching." Like tens of thousands of Christians in the US, they can do some good teachings. In the process, they're more concerned about showing off than someone getting something when they listen. Edification? No, self-aggrandizement. Congratulations! You had the nerve to look behind the curtain, and didn't ignore the man you saw there. You gave them a close look, and saw that they talked a good game, but have nothing to offer you but nostalgia for "the good old days" of twi- which weren't as "good" as we were led to believe. There's plenty of other Christians out there. Many are far better and healthier to associate with. The insular "ex-twi only" system is self-limiting, and can't go much beyond the best performances in old twi days. That's pretty much something they used to criticize churches for at the time- limiting Christians by locking the doctrine.