Well I wrote somewhere here about being reproved for not following revelation I had supposedly received at some point. Certainly a vice to get people to constantly blame themselves.
Concerning free will I can tell you I got to the point where I was angry at God for not just making me a robot that wasn't aware of his own existence. That's just what life in twi made me feel like. What's the point of free will? All your decisions are wrong. There's only one way do anything. And the answers only come from leadership.
Honestly, I think freedom of will plays more in the confines of the small choices of life.
This sounds right to me.
Truly FREE will seems to be absent in specific, individual events of life and all seems robotic. Yet over time free will manifests in what we repeatedly love and focus on and trust on and rely on. Walter taught this in his Renewed Mind class, but he did not go into the detail that is coming out here.
Sculpted will happens all the time but few take the time to introspect and see that it's far from being totally free will. We are largely stimulus-response machines. In fact, I've probably pushed several peoples' buttons right now with these assertions.
But seriously, I've spent decades working (intermittently) on the difference between free will and determinism. From that work I am ready to conclude that most of the time we're robots, just really fancy ones. Once in a while a few may temporarily break out and away from what forces normal behavior and true freely willed behavior is manifested. I think it's rare, though. Few have the courage to behave contrary to the established order.
My shot at it (let's see how many people I can p1ss off...
1. How far does free will go - by this I mean, how far does free will cover the actions taken by people in circumstances that are beyond their control?
If something is truly out of your control, then IMHO free will doesn't apply. But, there are, on the other hand, bad decisions that can lead up to something being out of your control. For example, if you are slipped a mickey in your cool-aid that you drank during a break at work and end up being raped, obviously the being raped is not something that you could control. OTOH, if you are a gorgeous blonde and go alone into a hotel bar in the middle east and strike up a conversation with a nice Saudi prince, get slipped a mickey, and wake up in his bed, you have to take some responsibility for the situation. Not the getting raped, but for putting yourself into a vulnerable position.
2. In hindsight, we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do... is this infringement of free will?
It depends (again, IMHO). We all have the responsibility for keeping our brains turned on and operational at all times. If you are an adult of normally sound mind and you turn your brain off, then you bear some responsibility for turning your brain off. If you are a child and raised in to believe that the sky is pink, then, of course you are not responsible for that. If you are not of sound mind, the same applies.
OTOH, when you cook a frog, you raise the heat in the pot slowly. That was what the course structure in TWI was like (at least during my tenure in the '80s). It started off light, started raising some questions about standard Christian doctrine (e.g., those crucified with Christ -- btw, take a look at this post in the thread, misquoting Jesus, for reference about four crucified...it will open your eyes big time!), and then started with stranger and stranger things until, all of a sudden, the only truth in the world was TWI and we'd better by golly obey that MOG!
In such a situation, I think that the responsibility for free will, while not eliminated, is seriously mitigated.
3. What cicumstances have you been in that you feel your free will has been infringed upon?
Probably not as many as some others who post here...my judgement was impacted as a result of TWI brainwashing...thus impairing my ability to exercise free will. But other than some poor judgement, I can't say that I ultimately was stripped of free will.
I ask these questions, because I have this thought in the back of my head that seems to say to me over and over "these things happened because YOU allowed them to, and therefore YOU are responsible... sure, other people ENCOURAGED and TOLD YOU TO, but ultimately, this was YOUR DECISION, and only YOU are RESPONSIBLE...."
But, was this truly the case? Where does free will end and where does it begin? How does spiritual abuse factor into the concept of free will? Past experiences?
I thought maybe asking some people who have been manipulated by twi would have some answers and be able to shed some light on this.
Thanks for listening and thanks for posting!
I think the following may be of assistance.
First of all, the past is the past. Leave it there. If you cursed God or hurt your neighbor, ask God for forgiveness. If you are Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, Orthodox, or Coptic, go to confession. Otherwise, do whatever your belief system calls on you to do.
Accept the Divine Mercy of God. Allow Him to forgive you (and believe me, that is a lot harder than it sounds)
And move on.
But then resolve within yourself to not let somebody else control your mind...and therefore control your actions.
Resolve to verify what you hear in the news. Resolve to verify what you hear in church. Resolve to verify what you hear from a friend or relative.
You know the Catholics, in the "Act of Contrition" prayer, have one phrase that is particularly applicable: to avoid the near occasion of sin.
What it means is that, if you can at all control the circumstances, don't put yourself in the situation that can result in the sin.
e.g.,
If you have a drinking problem, stay away from booze.
If you have a sex problem, stay away from porno and singles bars.
If you have an aggressive driving problem, change your commute times.
If you have a child abuse problem, don't be alone with a child.
If you have a murder problem, get rid of the guns in the house.
If you have a brainwashing problem, stay away from cult meetings and classes.
and so on.
(Of course, we know that not everybody follows the above simple advice about the near occasion of sin)
First of all, the past is the past. Leave it there. If you cursed God or hurt your neighbor, ask God for forgiveness. If you are Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, Orthodox, or Coptic, go to confession. Otherwise, do whatever your belief system calls on you to do.
Accept the Divine Mercy of God. Allow Him to forgive you (and believe me, that is a lot harder than it sounds)
And move on.
But then resolve within yourself to not let somebody else control your mind...and therefore control your actions.
Resolve to verify what you hear in the news. Resolve to verify what you hear in church. Resolve to verify what you hear from a friend or relative.
You know the Catholics, in the "Act of Contrition" prayer, have one phrase that is particularly applicable: to avoid the near occasion of sin.
What it means is that, if you can at all control the circumstances, don't put yourself in the situation that can result in the sin.
e.g.,
If you have a drinking problem, stay away from booze.
If you have a sex problem, stay away from porno and singles bars.
If you have an aggressive driving problem, change your commute times.
If you have a child abuse problem, don't be alone with a child.
If you have a murder problem, get rid of the guns in the house.
If you have a brainwashing problem, stay away from cult meetings and classes.
and so on.
(Of course, we know that not everybody follows the above simple advice about the near occasion of sin)
At first I thought about putting this one in the Doctrinal section, but I think I'm looking for something not doctrinal, but practical...
I have some questions:
1. How far does free will go - by this I mean, how far does free will cover the actions taken by people in circumstances that are beyond their control?
2. In hindsight, we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do... is this infringement of free will?
3. What cicumstances have you been in that you feel your free will has been infringed upon?
I ask these questions, because I have this thought in the back of my head that seems to say to me over and over "these things happened because YOU allowed them to, and therefore YOU are responsible... sure, other people ENCOURAGED and TOLD YOU TO, but ultimately, this was YOUR DECISION, and only YOU are RESPONSIBLE...."
But, was this truly the case? Where does free will end and where does it begin? How does spiritual abuse factor into the concept of free will? Past experiences?
I thought maybe asking some people who have been manipulated by twi would have some answers and be able to shed some light on this.
Thanks for listening and thanks for posting!
THere are so may situations to mention here.
first one I can think of wasnt word (manipulation)driven..but more about control..which is the absence of free will.
I had to hand in a travel form to show information in reguards to visiting my fiance who lived 4 hrs away, It showed my date leaving and returning,who was the FC, who was I visiting,phone info..every form was the same..same flippin info accept for date changes..I was only allowed to see him every 3wks,so if I wanted to see him again in 3 wks I had to fill it out right away and hand it in immediately after returning from my trip...Vice Versa..
I dont know if this is too heavy for GSC Radio...I think it would be a great topic..
quote: I had to hand in a travel form to show information in reguards to visiting my fiance who lived 4 hrs away, It showed my date leaving and returning,who was the FC, who was I visiting,phone info..every form was the same..same flippin info accept for date changes..I was only allowed to see him every 3wks,so if I wanted to see him again in 3 wks I had to fill it out right away and hand it in immediately after returning from my trip
I left twi in 1994; when I tell some of my buddies who left in 1989 about having to account for every 15 minute segment of every day like that they can't fathom it. They are shocked that twi turned into that. Do they still have to do this?
I like that song by Rush called Free will. Especially the line "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". The implication here is that twi painted us into a corner and limited our use of free will, but so did any school I ever attended. So does the military. We all HAVE free will, but it's like free speech; you're free to say what you will, but there may be consequences for doing so. Those who quickly decide on a course of action have more control over their lives IMO.
johniam- so true..they painted us into a corner so they could see absolute allegiance, and it was not allegience to GOD like I thought...what a fool Ive been..
As much as anything, isn't freewill about the attitude (especially the attitude of our heart) we choose to take? Not necessarily our actions, which may well be governed by external forces.
JC had the choice in the garden whether to follow his own will and run away, far away, from the people he knew were coming to kill him; or whether to stay and follow God's plan. He stayed and went through with what had been prepared since the fall of man.
Was that "free will" or "predestination"?
If he can exercise free will at such a time, we must also have that choice available to ourselves.
TWI's problem is that it usurped the position of God, suborned His people and then corrupted the concepts of free will and loving submission.
I think that you can so confusion or abused a person that they are no longer able to see the choices before them clearly and distinctly!
As we know confusion is a main torture technique in the physical and spiritual realm.
Mental and physical tortures breakdown people's wills and then damages their ability to focus, think clearly and make wise choices. They are too flooded with emotions and pains at times to reason correctly on their own.
The degree to which we have become physically mentally and spiritually trained and strengthen usually determines the outcome when we are pressured and confused. We cannot go beyond what we know...and God only holds us responsible for what we do know.
I am not certain, if this is correct or not but, the 1st opportunity in any situation seems the clearest to me to freely choose. After that a lot of other things factor in:
1. How easily you can be influenced or manipulated
2. How emotionally charged the situation is, and how invested you are in it
3. How old you are, and your level of maturity
4. How many bleeding wounds and scars you have at the time and how they relate to the choices before you
5. How much wisdom knowledge and understanding you have acquired and are able to practically apply.
It says in the bible that God will make a way for us to escape.
I Corinthians 10:13 - There is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Yet He also understands that we have a human side. He speaks to all issues not just one. It sure is great that he is the searcher of all hearts. That he sees our individual hearts and individual needs. He gives to us individually without favoritism. All this is easy for God and often hard for us to do.
Concerning TWI: I don't believe God simply allowed us to be hurt by them; nor was that his intent. I think he was right there with us all the way. He stepped in a lot for me! The rest of the time I was too blinded to see!
In my case it was to learn His word and to find salvation;...to find strength and courage;...to find wisdom, knowledge and understanding. In order for me not to be tortured, manipulated or confused. To heal and to know all of the walking, loving truly genuine family of God. The abusers will be held accountable! I gained far more than I lost!
Those were things I needed and God provided me that way. For me it was the best way and probably because He knew I would be able to see His word the way I needed too through the particular hearts and love of genuine true believers who really knew how to love, to teach and to show me how to live!
Isaiaha 55: 8 and 9 express that His ways are higher than our ways his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
I may not understand it all...not much at all really; but it is clear to me that God is love and is not a respector of persons. He steps in when He is allowed or when we cannot think right or know and understand...maybe more ways than I know of. He gave us free will; and what would we be without it?
I ask these questions, because I have this thought in the back of my head that seems to say to me over and over "these things happened because YOU allowed them to, and therefore YOU are responsible... sure, other people ENCOURAGED and TOLD YOU TO, but ultimately, this was YOUR DECISION, and only YOU are RESPONSIBLE...."
I have felt the same way and thought these same things. Even though I was responsible for what I was saying, thinking, and doing, I had a preset determined set of reference because of being in the way at such an early age.
To me it’s like this:
My REALITY at the time of so many thoughts and conversations is that of one completely different than it is now. While growing up in my way world, I thought things like:
"My earthly family isn't as important as my spiritual family, all I need is the household" (I was around 11 or 12 when I thought this)
“They think I am really a quality person, maybe I should go in the corps.” (I was 13, 16 and 20 when I had this thought.)
“If I yell at my brother in front of the limb coordinator completely humiliating him they will see that I am tough and able to be way corps.” (I was 14 years old at the time, how sick is that.)
“Here am I send me, I just want to go where the need is.” (I was 19 years old at the time)
“If I make all my decisions based on the longest part of my life, all eternity, as taught to me in the Way, then I should go as fast and as hard and as persistent as I possibly can even if it means wearing myself out and doing something I don’t really want to do only because in all of eternity somehow God is going to make it up to me.” I was 20 ish.
Uh, now I see God really wants me to enjoy my life now too. Sorry I digress. But I think you get my point.
“Sure I’ll take another @#$% assignment even though I don’t think this is really my strength so that I can become a ‘more spiritually mature individual.’” When in reality they just were just filling a position they needed filled. I wasn't 'called' to do what they assigned me!
Yes, they influenced me and yes I made decisions I am not proud of but it reminds me of a kind of movie, I am not sure what the technical term is but its like when you have a certain plot, and all you let the viewer know is one certain way of thinking, M. Night Shyamalan does this in his movies quite a bit and also, The Sixth Sense comes to mind. Where the entire movie from the beginning Bruce Willis talks to this kid that “sees dead people”. A critical thinker would spot certain elements of the plot right away and start to piece it together. But, I was completely amazed at the end of the movie when all of a sudden, the story shifted and I now understood what was truly going on.
Being, ‘raised in the Word’, I was inclined to have a predetermined mind set of what the Way was about. I didn't have a say in what I believed until later. I didn't question anything that was taught to me because people who questioned were weak and not faithful followers. It wasn’t until I was humiliated and accused of things that weren’t true of me that my plot in life shifted and I began to see the way for what it was. And how I was influenced to do the things I did.
I was no longer able to be controlled.
I was then asked to leave.
It all came down to my REALITY in the situation.
And now all I can do is move on as mentioned earlier in other people's posts. Repair the hearts of the family member's I hurt and the people I love, no longer being "under the influence".
We all have freedom of Choice. Which I don't think is the same as the free will Twi promoted. Freedom of choice simply means that we choose how we will respond in any given situation. It does not mean that we control the situations we find oursleves in but merely how we chose to respond to said situations
I am completely amazed and in awe of the responses posted here! You guys are some awesome deep thinkers!
Mrs. B - your experiences mirror mine in a way I didn't even know. Someone's perception at that moment is their reality - no matter what else is going on at the time, and though we would want to do things differently, our motive of heart has a lot to do with how God sees it - why else would it say that He is the heart-searcher?
RG - good points on factor effecting free will!
MarkOMalley - Thanks for the post - it was very healing, and good examples to think about.
Hammeroni - I like squirrels. I wonder if they have free will?
Oakspear - your quote "We have free will, but sometimes none of the choices that we can freely make are good ones." - profound, to say the least.
Waysider and Twinky - "TWI usurped our free will" is a great way to put it.
PB - "They preached "free will" but in practice is was "do what we tell you to"." - Never thought of it that way... things were so shrouded, but like Mrs. B said, the critical thinking has been turned on.
Johniam - "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". I like that song, too.
Likeaneagle - I just stopped giving people those damn forms. When they called my cell phone because they didn't know how to contact me (but they called me??) I told them that they didn't need the form, they got a hold of me just fine.
Mike - Way deep thoughts (no pun intended, or offense.)
I've been thinking about this too. This isn't a very well thought out or comprehensive response, but: if choice (A) is toe the line exactly or choice (B) is leave, and become possessed, die, leave God's protection, God not even spit in your direction because you are such a worthless bag of dung in His eyes....that's really not a choice is it? Free will implies a choice.
There was no free will in twi I can remember. It stopped when I took the class. Either stay with twi or slap God in the face and turn my back on Him.
I should get lots of rewards for commitment. Probably few if any for brains.
As much as anything, isn't freewill about the attitude (especially the attitude of our heart) we choose to take? Not necessarily our actions, which may well be governed by external forces.
JC had the choice in the garden whether to follow his own will and run away, far away, from the people he knew were coming to kill him; or whether to stay and follow God's plan. He stayed and went through with what had been prepared since the fall of man.
Was that "free will" or "predestination"?
If he can exercise free will at such a time, we must also have that choice available to ourselves.
TWI's problem is that it usurped the position of God, suborned His people and then corrupted the concepts of free will and loving submission.
In some ways it would seem to me to be both. Jesus Christ, of his own free will, stayed and did that which he was born or predestinated to do. As you say, he went through with what had been prepared since the fall of man.
The problem involved with being obedient to leadership is that it was based on the premise that they (leaders) were ministers to us for good (Hebrews 13:17. Romans 13:1-6). I did know some men and women in the position of leadership who lived up to their end of the bargain, and also some men and women who lived up to that standard who were not in the position of leadership; but they became few and far between as time went on. Did we really have any obligation to obey leaders who were not fulfilling their end of the deal?
I agree with Mark O'Malleys post, JavaJane. The past is the past. Learn what you can from your mistakes, accept the forgiveness and grace of God, apologize to any person for any hurt you may have caused them, if there is any need to at this late date, and move on. It seems to me that after these many years you can safely tell that voice in your head to shut up and go away. It seems to be more in the category of condemnation than anything else.
Oops, I still forgot to switch AGAIN. Dang it. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. This is STILL Jean, not John.
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Bolshevik
Well I wrote somewhere here about being reproved for not following revelation I had supposedly received at some point. Certainly a vice to get people to constantly blame themselves.
Concerning free will I can tell you I got to the point where I was angry at God for not just making me a robot that wasn't aware of his own existence. That's just what life in twi made me feel like. What's the point of free will? All your decisions are wrong. There's only one way do anything. And the answers only come from leadership.
(edited for grammer)
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Ham
I used to really value "free will", now I am not so sure..
I think I have it, or at least the illusion of it..
:)
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waysider
God gives us free will.
TWI is not a laison between us and God.
Therefore the comparison is a moot point.
TWI is/ was a CULT. As such, anything TWI demanded of us that contradicted the scriptures was a violation of the free will God gave us.
Examples abound but the essence remains the same.
TWI usurped our free will and must therefore answer to God Allmighty for the consequenses they effected.
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coolchef
free will in twi?
this should go to the silly post
free will indeed
if you were a true wafer you had none
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Ham
The only thing I'll say, I've seen a few things lately that suggest that free will isn't quite the reality that I was told that it was..
I will provide no details. People might really think the squirrel went over the deep end..
Honestly, I think freedom of will plays more in the confines of the small choices of life.
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polar bear
Waysider-Amen
JJ-Manipulation is the key.
Twi contradicted most of what they taught.
They preached "free will" but in practice is was "do what we tell you to".
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Mike
This sounds right to me.
Truly FREE will seems to be absent in specific, individual events of life and all seems robotic. Yet over time free will manifests in what we repeatedly love and focus on and trust on and rely on. Walter taught this in his Renewed Mind class, but he did not go into the detail that is coming out here.
Sculpted will happens all the time but few take the time to introspect and see that it's far from being totally free will. We are largely stimulus-response machines. In fact, I've probably pushed several peoples' buttons right now with these assertions.
But seriously, I've spent decades working (intermittently) on the difference between free will and determinism. From that work I am ready to conclude that most of the time we're robots, just really fancy ones. Once in a while a few may temporarily break out and away from what forces normal behavior and true freely willed behavior is manifested. I think it's rare, though. Few have the courage to behave contrary to the established order.
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waysider
Confound that daggone peer pressure.
Mike-----------
p.s.--- I typed that while standing on my head, looking into a mirror. Not too bad, huh?
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markomalley
My shot at it (let's see how many people I can p1ss off...
If something is truly out of your control, then IMHO free will doesn't apply. But, there are, on the other hand, bad decisions that can lead up to something being out of your control. For example, if you are slipped a mickey in your cool-aid that you drank during a break at work and end up being raped, obviously the being raped is not something that you could control. OTOH, if you are a gorgeous blonde and go alone into a hotel bar in the middle east and strike up a conversation with a nice Saudi prince, get slipped a mickey, and wake up in his bed, you have to take some responsibility for the situation. Not the getting raped, but for putting yourself into a vulnerable position.
It depends (again, IMHO). We all have the responsibility for keeping our brains turned on and operational at all times. If you are an adult of normally sound mind and you turn your brain off, then you bear some responsibility for turning your brain off. If you are a child and raised in to believe that the sky is pink, then, of course you are not responsible for that. If you are not of sound mind, the same applies.OTOH, when you cook a frog, you raise the heat in the pot slowly. That was what the course structure in TWI was like (at least during my tenure in the '80s). It started off light, started raising some questions about standard Christian doctrine (e.g., those crucified with Christ -- btw, take a look at this post in the thread, misquoting Jesus, for reference about four crucified...it will open your eyes big time!), and then started with stranger and stranger things until, all of a sudden, the only truth in the world was TWI and we'd better by golly obey that MOG!
In such a situation, I think that the responsibility for free will, while not eliminated, is seriously mitigated.
Probably not as many as some others who post here...my judgement was impacted as a result of TWI brainwashing...thus impairing my ability to exercise free will. But other than some poor judgement, I can't say that I ultimately was stripped of free will.
I think the following may be of assistance.
First of all, the past is the past. Leave it there. If you cursed God or hurt your neighbor, ask God for forgiveness. If you are Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopal, Orthodox, or Coptic, go to confession. Otherwise, do whatever your belief system calls on you to do.
Accept the Divine Mercy of God. Allow Him to forgive you (and believe me, that is a lot harder than it sounds)
And move on.
But then resolve within yourself to not let somebody else control your mind...and therefore control your actions.
Resolve to verify what you hear in the news. Resolve to verify what you hear in church. Resolve to verify what you hear from a friend or relative.
You know the Catholics, in the "Act of Contrition" prayer, have one phrase that is particularly applicable: to avoid the near occasion of sin.
What it means is that, if you can at all control the circumstances, don't put yourself in the situation that can result in the sin.
e.g.,
If you have a drinking problem, stay away from booze.
If you have a sex problem, stay away from porno and singles bars.
If you have an aggressive driving problem, change your commute times.
If you have a child abuse problem, don't be alone with a child.
If you have a murder problem, get rid of the guns in the house.
If you have a brainwashing problem, stay away from cult meetings and classes.
and so on.
(Of course, we know that not everybody follows the above simple advice about the near occasion of sin)
Hope the above helps.
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Suda
Ditto MarkOMalley.
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Oakspear
We have free will, but sometimes none of the choices that we can freely make are good ones.
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WordWolf
I thought this bore repeating.
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likeaneagle
THere are so may situations to mention here.
first one I can think of wasnt word (manipulation)driven..but more about control..which is the absence of free will.
I had to hand in a travel form to show information in reguards to visiting my fiance who lived 4 hrs away, It showed my date leaving and returning,who was the FC, who was I visiting,phone info..every form was the same..same flippin info accept for date changes..I was only allowed to see him every 3wks,so if I wanted to see him again in 3 wks I had to fill it out right away and hand it in immediately after returning from my trip...Vice Versa..
I dont know if this is too heavy for GSC Radio...I think it would be a great topic..
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johniam
quote: I had to hand in a travel form to show information in reguards to visiting my fiance who lived 4 hrs away, It showed my date leaving and returning,who was the FC, who was I visiting,phone info..every form was the same..same flippin info accept for date changes..I was only allowed to see him every 3wks,so if I wanted to see him again in 3 wks I had to fill it out right away and hand it in immediately after returning from my trip
I left twi in 1994; when I tell some of my buddies who left in 1989 about having to account for every 15 minute segment of every day like that they can't fathom it. They are shocked that twi turned into that. Do they still have to do this?
I like that song by Rush called Free will. Especially the line "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". The implication here is that twi painted us into a corner and limited our use of free will, but so did any school I ever attended. So does the military. We all HAVE free will, but it's like free speech; you're free to say what you will, but there may be consequences for doing so. Those who quickly decide on a course of action have more control over their lives IMO.
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likeaneagle
johniam- so true..they painted us into a corner so they could see absolute allegiance, and it was not allegience to GOD like I thought...what a fool Ive been..
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Twinky
As much as anything, isn't freewill about the attitude (especially the attitude of our heart) we choose to take? Not necessarily our actions, which may well be governed by external forces.
JC had the choice in the garden whether to follow his own will and run away, far away, from the people he knew were coming to kill him; or whether to stay and follow God's plan. He stayed and went through with what had been prepared since the fall of man.
Was that "free will" or "predestination"?
If he can exercise free will at such a time, we must also have that choice available to ourselves.
TWI's problem is that it usurped the position of God, suborned His people and then corrupted the concepts of free will and loving submission.
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RainbowsGirl
I think that you can so confusion or abused a person that they are no longer able to see the choices before them clearly and distinctly!
As we know confusion is a main torture technique in the physical and spiritual realm.
Mental and physical tortures breakdown people's wills and then damages their ability to focus, think clearly and make wise choices. They are too flooded with emotions and pains at times to reason correctly on their own.
The degree to which we have become physically mentally and spiritually trained and strengthen usually determines the outcome when we are pressured and confused. We cannot go beyond what we know...and God only holds us responsible for what we do know.
I am not certain, if this is correct or not but, the 1st opportunity in any situation seems the clearest to me to freely choose. After that a lot of other things factor in:
1. How easily you can be influenced or manipulated
2. How emotionally charged the situation is, and how invested you are in it
3. How old you are, and your level of maturity
4. How many bleeding wounds and scars you have at the time and how they relate to the choices before you
5. How much wisdom knowledge and understanding you have acquired and are able to practically apply.
It says in the bible that God will make a way for us to escape.
I Corinthians 10:13 - There is no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Yet He also understands that we have a human side. He speaks to all issues not just one. It sure is great that he is the searcher of all hearts. That he sees our individual hearts and individual needs. He gives to us individually without favoritism. All this is easy for God and often hard for us to do.
Concerning TWI: I don't believe God simply allowed us to be hurt by them; nor was that his intent. I think he was right there with us all the way. He stepped in a lot for me! The rest of the time I was too blinded to see!
In my case it was to learn His word and to find salvation;...to find strength and courage;...to find wisdom, knowledge and understanding. In order for me not to be tortured, manipulated or confused. To heal and to know all of the walking, loving truly genuine family of God. The abusers will be held accountable! I gained far more than I lost!
Those were things I needed and God provided me that way. For me it was the best way and probably because He knew I would be able to see His word the way I needed too through the particular hearts and love of genuine true believers who really knew how to love, to teach and to show me how to live!
Isaiaha 55: 8 and 9 express that His ways are higher than our ways his thoughts are higher than our thoughts.
I may not understand it all...not much at all really; but it is clear to me that God is love and is not a respector of persons. He steps in when He is allowed or when we cannot think right or know and understand...maybe more ways than I know of. He gave us free will; and what would we be without it?
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Mrs. Bolshevik
I have felt the same way and thought these same things. Even though I was responsible for what I was saying, thinking, and doing, I had a preset determined set of reference because of being in the way at such an early age.
To me it’s like this:
My REALITY at the time of so many thoughts and conversations is that of one completely different than it is now. While growing up in my way world, I thought things like:
"My earthly family isn't as important as my spiritual family, all I need is the household" (I was around 11 or 12 when I thought this)
“They think I am really a quality person, maybe I should go in the corps.” (I was 13, 16 and 20 when I had this thought.)
“If I yell at my brother in front of the limb coordinator completely humiliating him they will see that I am tough and able to be way corps.” (I was 14 years old at the time, how sick is that.)
“Here am I send me, I just want to go where the need is.” (I was 19 years old at the time)
“If I make all my decisions based on the longest part of my life, all eternity, as taught to me in the Way, then I should go as fast and as hard and as persistent as I possibly can even if it means wearing myself out and doing something I don’t really want to do only because in all of eternity somehow God is going to make it up to me.” I was 20 ish.
Uh, now I see God really wants me to enjoy my life now too. Sorry I digress. But I think you get my point.
“Sure I’ll take another @#$% assignment even though I don’t think this is really my strength so that I can become a ‘more spiritually mature individual.’” When in reality they just were just filling a position they needed filled. I wasn't 'called' to do what they assigned me!
Yes, they influenced me and yes I made decisions I am not proud of but it reminds me of a kind of movie, I am not sure what the technical term is but its like when you have a certain plot, and all you let the viewer know is one certain way of thinking, M. Night Shyamalan does this in his movies quite a bit and also, The Sixth Sense comes to mind. Where the entire movie from the beginning Bruce Willis talks to this kid that “sees dead people”. A critical thinker would spot certain elements of the plot right away and start to piece it together. But, I was completely amazed at the end of the movie when all of a sudden, the story shifted and I now understood what was truly going on.
Being, ‘raised in the Word’, I was inclined to have a predetermined mind set of what the Way was about. I didn't have a say in what I believed until later. I didn't question anything that was taught to me because people who questioned were weak and not faithful followers. It wasn’t until I was humiliated and accused of things that weren’t true of me that my plot in life shifted and I began to see the way for what it was. And how I was influenced to do the things I did.
I was no longer able to be controlled.
I was then asked to leave.
It all came down to my REALITY in the situation.
And now all I can do is move on as mentioned earlier in other people's posts. Repair the hearts of the family member's I hurt and the people I love, no longer being "under the influence".
I hope this makes sense.
Love,
Mrs. B
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TrustAndObey
Good post RainbowsGirl.
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templelady
We all have freedom of Choice. Which I don't think is the same as the free will Twi promoted. Freedom of choice simply means that we choose how we will respond in any given situation. It does not mean that we control the situations we find oursleves in but merely how we chose to respond to said situations
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JavaJane
I am completely amazed and in awe of the responses posted here! You guys are some awesome deep thinkers!
Mrs. B - your experiences mirror mine in a way I didn't even know. Someone's perception at that moment is their reality - no matter what else is going on at the time, and though we would want to do things differently, our motive of heart has a lot to do with how God sees it - why else would it say that He is the heart-searcher?
RG - good points on factor effecting free will!
MarkOMalley - Thanks for the post - it was very healing, and good examples to think about.
Hammeroni - I like squirrels. I wonder if they have free will?
Oakspear - your quote "We have free will, but sometimes none of the choices that we can freely make are good ones." - profound, to say the least.
Waysider and Twinky - "TWI usurped our free will" is a great way to put it.
PB - "They preached "free will" but in practice is was "do what we tell you to"." - Never thought of it that way... things were so shrouded, but like Mrs. B said, the critical thinking has been turned on.
Johniam - "if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice". I like that song, too.
Likeaneagle - I just stopped giving people those damn forms. When they called my cell phone because they didn't know how to contact me (but they called me??) I told them that they didn't need the form, they got a hold of me just fine.
Mike - Way deep thoughts (no pun intended, or offense.)
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another spot
Hi JavaJane!
I've been thinking about this too. This isn't a very well thought out or comprehensive response, but: if choice (A) is toe the line exactly or choice (B) is leave, and become possessed, die, leave God's protection, God not even spit in your direction because you are such a worthless bag of dung in His eyes....that's really not a choice is it? Free will implies a choice.
There was no free will in twi I can remember. It stopped when I took the class. Either stay with twi or slap God in the face and turn my back on Him.
I should get lots of rewards for commitment. Probably few if any for brains.
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JavaJane
I'll be right there next to you, AS to receive those committment awards. Hopefully I will have lost the dunce cap by then!
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johniam
In some ways it would seem to me to be both. Jesus Christ, of his own free will, stayed and did that which he was born or predestinated to do. As you say, he went through with what had been prepared since the fall of man.
The problem involved with being obedient to leadership is that it was based on the premise that they (leaders) were ministers to us for good (Hebrews 13:17. Romans 13:1-6). I did know some men and women in the position of leadership who lived up to their end of the bargain, and also some men and women who lived up to that standard who were not in the position of leadership; but they became few and far between as time went on. Did we really have any obligation to obey leaders who were not fulfilling their end of the deal?
I agree with Mark O'Malleys post, JavaJane. The past is the past. Learn what you can from your mistakes, accept the forgiveness and grace of God, apologize to any person for any hurt you may have caused them, if there is any need to at this late date, and move on. It seems to me that after these many years you can safely tell that voice in your head to shut up and go away. It seems to be more in the category of condemnation than anything else.
Oops, I still forgot to switch AGAIN. Dang it. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. This is STILL Jean, not John.
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