Leaderboard

Those of us who exited twi, AND have now done extensive background research on the cult (as opposed to being carried away by youthful groupthink and peer pressure).....maintain strong convictions of the manipulation and exploitation from the cult. It is my belief that most will recognize the early warning signs of an abusive relationship, sound the alarm for others and stay away. Many of us were deeply entrenched in the programs and networking of this cult. Whether it was WOW, Fellow Laborers, or Way Corps.....we saw the underpinnings that were non-Christian or pseudo-Christian, at best. The higher up the hierarchy, the more Pharisaic the cult's colors show thru. And, when wierwille enters the spotlight of Scriptural scrutiny, the drunkenness, serial plagiarism, bullying, striker, sexual predation, misogynic undertones, etc.....put him in the category of a man of the flesh. While there are still some who idolize wierwille, and post on GSC......their drumbeating of "this great man" is falling on deaf ears. As adults, we've moved on to the weightier matters of Scriptural integrity....or pursuits in life, career and family that give fulfillment. We see thru twi's deceptive scam that is played on the youth. We stay true to our own personal convictions and a core of GSC-posters stay committed to warning others of this evil that lurks near the flock of God. God bless. Happy New Year 2023.

Hey, all. It’s been awhile since I’ve stepped into the diner. I’m outing myself today because it’s too painful to keep my silence anymore, and I’m struggling right now. My name is Leah - I’m LCM’s oldest child. I don’t know what to do next...I feel like I need to speak, but I don’t know what to say. I’m just so tired of hurting. Penworthy, it’s lovely to “see” you here. I so appreciate your compassion...

I left twi over 30 years ago and have not been comfortable in any church all that time. My mind kept judging their doctrine no matter how loving and accepting the people were. When I began to spend time on GSC, beginning with the Absent Christ thread, I began to see how much of twi's doctrine on the holy spirit field, the law of believing and the "word takes the place of the absent Christ" was inaccurate and had crippled my walk with Christ. It's only been four months and now I've started to fellowship with Christians in a church where I feel at home. A lot of what I'm seeing there lines up with what I've learned on GSC. The important point to realize is that for me, I needed to begin having fellowship with Christ before I could fellowship with others who belong in his body outside of twi. What helped me to connect with my Lord was posting on GSC so the believers there could show from scripture how it is God's will that we have fellowship with Christ. Once I understood that and I could open the door to receiving him, he went from being someone I knew about in my head to being someone alive in my life. I still read and send posts on GSC so I can continue learning and maybe help others as I've been helped.

My official involvement in TWI was brief. My emotional involvement is another story. I was introduced to The Way in late December 1986. It took a lot of persuading, but I finally sat through the class nearly two years later. By then I had sat through dozens of hours of teaching tapes and Way music was part of my regular diet. I even taught a couple of times: Before I took the class! I was not abused in or by The Way. No one hurt me. No one stole my girlfriend or wife. I parted with my money voluntarily. i left because I was loyal to those who were fired en masse in the spring of 1989. Leaving The Way did not affect my worship life one whit. I was of the belief that we who were cast aside were the ones who were truly most loyal to the Word as taught to us by Dr. Wierwille. In the decade that followed, I got married and became a fellowship coordinator at our offshoot in the Bronx. I got divorced and had a crisis of conscience. I tried hard to stay true to Biblical principles no matter who taught them, and to reject non-Biblical principles (again, no matter who taught them). I ceased being loyal to any particular group, defending and challenging various offshoots at various times. I also began attending mainstream churches after I moved to Florida. After my divorce, I discovered this online community of former Way believers. In my naiveté, I guess I must have come off as quite arrogant and inflexible. Honestly, I was not emotionally prepared for the realization that people had such a wide variety of experiences. I think I grew with this site, both in my understanding and in my flexibility, at least when it comes to doctrine. Today I am not a Way believer. I am not a believer in any supernatural religion. I am a humanist: I believe it is incumbent on man to identify and seek to solve the problems we create, so that our progeny can live in a future worth living for. I can work with anyone who has the same belief, whether that belief is driven by an underlying belief similar to mine or by the belief that a Higher Power demands it of us. So be it. I am writing this (and opening this thread) because I wanted to articulate a simple truth: The "members" of this web community are not an ideological monolith. The only thing we have in common appears to be that we sat through some version of a class that The Way called "foundational." Some of us experienced more. Some of us, far less. We are not all here because we were hurt, though some of us were. We are not all here because we are bitter, though some of us are. We are not all here because we hate God or the Word. Some of us love both with all our hearts. Others would no sooner hate God than Godzilla, for all their ability to demonstrate their existence. We are in various states of personal recovery. Honestly, I'm here out of habit. I've been done with this stuff for years. But now and then I am called upon to explain some of the things I wrote when I was young, idealistic, and enthusiastic about my faith. What about the Blue Book review and Actual Errors? The Blue Book Review (look it up) is a sincere effort by a sincere Christian to weed out truth from error in the works of VPW. Actual Errors, while limited in scope and purpose, was apparently QUITE influential despite itself. It was, at its heart, a defense of the class and the collaterals: A defense against an effort to exalt them above the Word we purported to believe. It was never intended to be an attack on PFAL. It was intended to be a recognition of the obvious: That PFAL was not perfect. That discussion died out years and years ago. But not and then it comes back up, and my name is attached to it. So now and then I remind people what it was all about. From the horse's mouth, as it were. Anyway, back to this thread: There is no single "why I left the way" experience. There is no single "why I'm still out" experience. We are individuals. We are here to give a reason for where we are today. Just ask us.

DWBH, what can I say? Thank you SO much for the love and your comments. I can’t quite find the words to tell you all how much I appreciate being welcome here. To answer a couple comments - I have 4 therapists and am on a battery of meds. I’ve been doing this latest round of hard work with said therapists for a year and a half. I think what has discouraged me is how deep the injuries go into my subconscious mind. But I am and will continue working. Being ME here is a big step I’ve wanted to take for years. Thanks again for the comfort <3

Insanity is often quoted as......"Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." ..........but with cult-splinter insanity, I find myself wondering if they are doing the same thing over and over again desiring the SAME results. With nearly 20 years of internet exposure..... Waydale and Greasespot Café.......surely IF these corps leaders had an ounce of integrity and empathy for others, they'd see the errors of their ways, no? What do ALL of the cult offshoots have in common? A self-appointed leader claims to have "the Word" and teach "it" to others. He offers up dissention and disagreements with martindale or rivenbark........and gives wierwille adulation. Without objective reflection and further seminary training or study, he tweaks the wierwille-teachings only slightly. Same pyramid structure is implemented..........same centralization, same lording over others, same rules on giving money. Now that you've met the *new boss, same as the old boss*..........how can you possibly expect DIFFERENT RESULTS? After exiting The Way International Cult.........how many got entrapped into another splinter group for another decade or more? Insanity right? And, within these various splinters......how many more twisted perversions were promoted and propagated by the spiritual elite (cough, cough) among us? The Geer group plunged into the posthumous indoctrinations of geer's idol, wierwille. CES/STFI grafted in new age, self-help quackery like Momentus and personal prophesies and nose spiders. Egads! And, CFF took you back to the nostalgia "good old days of twi" when that young blood was coursing thru your veins. Oh, the memories....... Here a splinter, there a splinter.............everywhere there is ANOTHER splinter. Whether the R&R group will get rooted is still questionable.......but Rico's upstart - Oikeos is another baby cult that is flailing its arms and legs. Nourished on the milk of "Wierwille's Word" this infant will grow up in the image of wierwille...........same result, same outcome as its mother-cult. IMO.........these splinters have NOTHING to do with serving and ministering to others, but rather are SELF-SERVING OVERLORDS. These corps cleave to the cult model, because they have no real-life job experience in the real world. At best, they would be hard to find middle management jobs, sales jobs or seek self-employment. There are near-zero employers out there who are willing to hire a 56-66 year old man who has been fossilized into an obscure "Christian" group for 35 or 40 years. Two years ago, I documented a timeline of my experiences during the Martindale Era.....Insanity on Steroids.......and it was crazy then. But now, seeing these corps who stayed ANOTHER 17 YEARS of Rivenbark's Reign of Error.........and now, wanting to claim the mantle of *Leadership* is laugh-out-loud appalling. What a bunch of weasels. Until they clean and sanctify themselves from all of wierwille cult, top to bottom, thoroughly and throughly............they are a blight on the body of Christ. They disappoint and diminish and destroy by seeking opportunities for filthy lucre's sake. Beware of their pernicious ways as they twist and pervert words to indulge and profit in this seduction. They seek those who've had their minds grooved with cult indoctrination and servitude, rather than do the hard work of reaching others. Beware of cults. Beware of groupthink. "In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule. " Friedrich Nietzsche

Hey everyone, I’ve been looking at this site for years and decided to join. I was raised in The Way and just left in 2017, with my husband who was also raised in The Way. We left after seeing the deep corruption and evil within the organization, and after becoming Christians within 24 hours of each other. We have found true freedom and healing over the past 2 years in getting to know Jesus as our God, and though our families have rejected us, have found an amazing family within our church community. Both my husband and I desire to help those who are struggling with leaving The Way, and who are struggling with doing the brain surgery required to unravel all of the lies. We have been able to maintain our faith through this process, and actually understand what “freedom in Christ” means. Personally, I am still working through a variety of issues resulting from my upbringing (both from TWI and a rough parent situation). Counseling and inner healing ministry have been incredibly helpful, and I am hopeful that with time, I will be completely free. Our prayer is to see The Way die completely, and we pray for healing to those who have left but still hold onto the harmful beliefs that the cult teaches its followers. So many people leave TWI but are never truly free from it. My husband and I are available if anyone has questions, or if you are hurting and need a friend who understands what you’re going through.

For years I'd told myself, "Someday I will talk about what happened while I was a member of The Way International. I will tell how Limb Coordinator Christoph Stoop threatened my life when the US Army JAG and CID offices were investigating an incident that occurred involving us and others at my secure Army microwave transmitter station during my assignment in Europe. Those events eventually ended with me being (oddly) medically discharged a full 18 months early, after being hospitalized three separate times for suicidal ideation. Furthermore, as the guilt and fear consumed me post-discharge, and after several suicide attempts, I found myself in a VA psych ward, which was the beginning of my recovery with the help of the VA. It was a cathartic experience. I became stronger during that lengthy and intensive treatment process. It was excruciatingly slow and painful – but in the end, I am more whole today than ever before thanks to the caring professionals at the VA. During that time, I was evaluated for multiple service-connected disabilities, including PTSD related to the experiences centered on TWI. I was rated permanently disabled and awarded 100% compensation. I’ve never felt money fixes anything but it has opened doors for educational opportunities and housing possibilities I would not have realized beforehand." Thanks for listening.

twi is still run by old fogeys who seized power so they could have the money and the power, and won't let go. They're trying to figure out how to interest young people, since without young people, twi's fading into obscurity. It's an old people ministry that hasn't appealed to young folks since the 1980s, and that means, as their population ages out and some drop dead of old age and others leave, they don't have any replacements to pay 10% or more of their income because they are suckers to keep the luxuries coming in for the people at the top. So, twi now has a handful of old farts in power trying to convince young people that twi is actually relevant and meaningful. How are they doing that? They're reviving what worked in the 1970s with the baby boomers, in their own foolish youth. It would be funny if it wasn't sad.

I feel that, thanks Waysider. I have more to share but it took 25 years to tell my story. I'm still basking in the relief of letting the first chapter out. It's been a marathon of a life. Thanks for seeing me.

Happy New Year spotters! I am bumping this thread for all those who may still be stuck in TWI nostalgia bias. Perhaps you like me have seen a recent depiction of the “Jesus Revolution” with all of the social happenings in the 60s and 70s that preceded the Way Ministry and other groups like Calvary Chapel and all of the tales about the groovy Christians of Rye NY or the Life magazine articles or the House of Acts in SF California. Seeing all of that I was reminded of the motivation I had in my youth to seek out grassroots truth in the form of spiritual wisdom from the Bible and Christian fellowship. As I pursued that as a primary goal in life, got married, had kids, and worked out how to live as a Christian man father and husband I ran into direct conflict with the cult I was in, The Way International, and what the Bible taught about Christian life, marriage, family, careers, debt, and many other major categories of life where they were stepping beyond scriptural boundaries and into areas of life in the nunya category. Nunya d@mn bidness. I also witnessed several leadership couples where the Way broke up their marriage, convinced them they had major spiritual problems and forced them back into their training program again. And I witnessed the Way performing libelous acts talking about these people to their congregations and acting well beyond any authority reasonable for a church group. I witnessed any attempt to restore equal balance met by excommunication. So the times I could be swayed by nostalgia and the idea of a large church with many friends (they were fake) I recollect the doctrinal and practical manipulation of these people and others who have published their accounts, and I thank God on my knees that I am no longer subservient to little Napoleons and their Machiavellian imaginations and their evil acts against those in their own house. I thank God for freedom, like the freedom that the concept of the United States of America can bring when people aren’t being political moral midgets, like the freedom that emancipation can bring and has brought to minorities, like the freedom to worship God without any sense of lack of worth that another man or woman tries to introduce. There is a time for nostalgia. I can break out an old vinyl album I replaced and go back to my roots, to a simpler time filled with faith without manipulation, to a time of infinite possibility. But I have zero nostalgia of being under the authority of moral midgets and performing rote roles of service to magnify others and their egos. I will not sacrifice my future and family’s future to run a church for a group too cheap to build one in my house and try and hype a new lie which is the same old lie. God did not speak to Victor Paul Wierwille and give him divine instruction for all mankind that he would teach “the Word” like it hasn’t been known since the first century. That is a lie from a book they no longer claim and a lie that is not in the man’s biography written by his spouse. Freedom > Nostalgia

This sort of thing is what happened to me. One day, in FellowLaborers, I found myself all alone in the house for some reason. I happened to look in a full length mirror and, just like that, like a bolt of lightning, a feeling of self-awareness came over me as I found myself asking, "How the hell did I get here?". Now, I don't mean I couldn't remember arriving or the trip there. I mean I suddenly wondered how my life could have evolved so drastically without me noticing. I realized I wasn't the same person I had been before I got involved with The Way. Not just a little different, but like a completely different person. My bridges to return were gone, vanished. It's not a good feeling. I started to silently question everything that was happening. If only I had paid closer attention to what was unfolding, life might have been very different. Would it have been better? Would it have been worse? Who's to say. But, for sure, it would have been much different.

As wierwille's twi grew in the 1970's, it made a quantum leap from the 5th corps to the 6th corps. From the numbers I remember, the 5th corps had 75 graduates.... whereas, the 6th corps started in Emporia with near 340 corps. It was a massive leap in numbers and could not be trained at headquarters, so the trustees searched for a location and took out a second mortgage/loan to acquire the Emporia campus. Along with this risk.... twi was ill-equipped to handle the free-rolling, rowdy individuals that were part of this 6th corps influx. Thus, heavy-handed measures came into play. One of my big contentions with corps training was that it was obsessed with obedience. Far too much emphasis was placed on following leadership..... rather than diligence or spiritual vigilance. Why the excessive need for obedience? Control. Corps coordinators made it a dominant priority to rein corps into a herd-mentality. In other words, twi FEARED individual thought (and questioning authority). It is far easier to rule by fear than to rule with love. At one point, they shut the corps program down with an ultimatum..... OBEY or LEAVE. Why couldn't they gather the body of corps together for an open dialogue? Why, even today, does twi give GSC the *silent treatment* after 20+ years? For the same reasons that wierwille highlighted certain verses of scripture in pfal and ignored others. He was working towards a manufactured outcome. Remember his little "story" in pfal when wierwille talks about "The sower and the seed?" And, now Maggie, wierwille asks, "What do you think the good seed represents?" And, Snowball Pete, "What do you think this good seed is?" Wierwille's point.....STOP THINKING about what you think it means and keep reading. Yet, time and again, wierwille injects his thinking into other verses as the class unfolds. It wasn't only the things twi highlighted thru the years that were relevant, but what things THEY DISMISSED and MEMORY-HOLED that spoke volumes. We came to pfal or corps training as individuals..... but graduated as a part of wierwille's "crack troops" or corps grads. Where in the scriptures does Jesus specifically call the men who followed him as "my disciples" in the possessive term? Yet, wierwille brands his corps as cattle.... "my corps." The corps letters were littered with this group-inclusive terminology. The Way International fear us. Why do they fear us? They fear we will have our own thoughts and speak up for ourselves. They fear we will become independent of their branding and no longer be subjugated to their will. They fear we will question their authority over us and relegated to the dustbin of history. They fear we will stand up for ourselves and start banding together. They fear we will become stronger and their influence will become weaker. They fear we will use our power against them as they fall further into irrelevance. They fear that we will awaken others to the deception that they perpetuate. They fear our free-thinking and tossing aside the burdens of fear and guilt. They fear that we are no longer captive to their authority. They fear we are independent. Philosopher Bertrand Russell quote (after devastation of WWI): Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth — more than ruin, more even than death. Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible; thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habits; thought is anarchic and lawless, indifferent to authority, careless of the well-tried wisdom of the ages. Thought looks into the pit of hell and is not afraid…Thought is great and swift and free, the light of the world, and the chief glory of man.

The more I consider these myriad of tactics, the more examples come to mind. Understandably, the more one is isolated and immersed in this realm of control.... the higher the levels of abuse. That's why the corps program was the ultimate stronghold wierwille utilized to attain his narcissistic power and control over others. Everything about the corps program gave wierwille and corps coordinators access to twist and mold young minds. When you signed on the line to "be corps"... you entered the door of bait-and-switch. Generic terminology of the corps commitment was an accelerated *mission creep* bonanza. Young, committed minds surrounded by cunning leaders and peers was pressurized. Those who fell short were publically castigated for all to witness. The cult held absolute control over the daily schedule and could change it at any time. Keeping corps off-balance stripped individuals from any control over their daily lives or future. Edgy and dangerous exercises.... colon cleanse, hitch-hiking at dark, safety at work projects. Death came early for some....even then, wierwille did not adjust or change course. Some young corps girls were selected for wierwille's sexual delight and predatory nature. Resistance to wierwille's "advances" was enough to give her the bum's rush off twi-property. Corps were disposable. Dreams of "serving God" were dashed by one act of disobedience. Isolation, immersion, idolization breeds a world of absolute control over others. Twisted teachings like "the lock box" and "salt covenants" were weapons of control. Corps were used as slave-labor at Camp Gunnison and Tinney, New Mexico (and roa). L.E.A.D. replaced T.F.I. in California. Wierwille stripped John Svmmerville of his authority. Purging those who challenged vpw was evident throughout twi's history. Wierwille did NOT lead by example.... he flaunted his position to smoke and drink at will. By 1977, 1978.... dozens of elder corps were moving towards the exit doors. What's a cult leader to do? Change? LOL. Nope, move younger guys into those vacated positions. Damage control, damage control. Twi was a one-trick pony. Decades of carnival tactics for 8 years (1973-1981) of power and control. Even when transitioning to lcm and stepping down (1981).....wierwille detested giving away power. Wierwille wanted his son, Don, to lead the ministry.... but Don's teaching prowess was lame. So, martindale was chosen because he ALWAYS obeyed wierwille. Nothing about being God's servant. Twi was built on a man of the flesh and remains ungodly to this day.

I do want to address this Mike. You constantly come at me like I have forgotten, or have been talked out of the truth of wierwille, or that I just don't understand where you are coming from. Personally, I have never had a better relationship with God and Jesus Christ - just like it says in the Bible. I spend my time reading scripture and tracking topics through Church history and other avenues. I don't waste my time reading wierwille -- been there done that. I have very dillegently, and judiciously considered and reconsidered most everything I learned from TWI over the past 14 years since I left. Most of wierwille's doctrines are not supported in actual scripture. I don't mean pretending you are a biblical researcher because you know how to use lexicons and concordances where you get to cherrypick your own brand of Christianity...like saying cloak = book case. Anywho - Let me say this again and say it clearly - wierwille was a false prophet who abused the flock he was entrusted with. - wierwille was a thief and liar and also a drunk who liked to take advantage of the Lord's heritage - his people! - his legacy is riddled with lies and occultic based principles such as the law of believing. It is plainly noted that he studied people like Albert Cliffe - a known spiritist. - wierwille wanted people to only read his books because if you branch off too far you will find the sources he stole from and you will also find out the truth on a lot of topics he preached...that truth? He preached a lot of LIES. - The way international is a preservation society dedicated to elevating wierwille up there next to Jesus Christ, the true preeminent one, because they have NOTHING else. No new charismatic cult leaders, no new anything, only the half baked legacy of their drunk a$$ father in the word. Before you talk about me dragging up his sins and compare that locust to King David, et. al. let me say this. I AM a RECOVERING ALCOHOLIC who will openly talk about my past and my sins and they are sordid and many. You know why? Because I have repented and been forgiven and perhaps my story can serve to help others who are caught in the same snares. Wierwille HID his sins and I will do all I can to expose them and the corrupt organization he left behind. It's not out of hate for anything...it's out of a sense of duty to come out from among them and be ye seperate. I will not be associated with anything TWI because the organization is corrupt to the core and a lot of that corruption stems from doctrine, doctrine that is above question and considered proven ministry research by the way international. I will not slink off quietly in the night and not expose what I came here to expose. I will not give a tacit agreement with their practices by supporting them with silence.

VPW's statement that the Bible interprets itself is nonsense. The act of interpretation of any text is done by the reader of the text. People interpret what they read. They are the ones who give it meaning. Surely we can see that this is a basic reason for many different denominations. They have different interpretations of Scripture. People interpret books and make decisions about what the books mean based on lots of factors, such as the times in which the book was written. We're talking about reading literature here. I'll say the obvious: Bibles are collections of pieces of literature. BTW, some Bibles have different pieces of literature in them compared with other Bibles. People who understand what literature is and who were not brainwashed by Wierwille, realize that books don't "interpret themselves." People interpret books. But because many of us who were vulnerable PFAL students and considered VPW as some great Biblical scholar, when he said that nonsense, many of us believed it. BTW, he's not the only Bible teacher who passes along that thoughtless statement. In Undertow I show my experience in realizing that books don't interpret themselves, people interpret books. I highlighted that point mainly for readers who were indoctrinated in The Way. Readers who never bought into Wierwille's propaganda know that already.

Some of you know that in 1987, I escaped the fundamentalism and cult control of The Way International when I drove away from TWI headquarters in New Knoxville, Ohio, and never went back. I don't intend to return there in person. However, by checking in here at GSC every once in a while, I end up revisiting, by way of people's memories and documented facts, some of the terrible problems that issued from cultic beliefs and behaviors of Way leaders and some followers. I also rejoice in much healing. Your stories are important and I thank you for them. Today, I watched the televised coverage of Cassidy Hutchinson give her testimony of what happened behind-the-scenes in the White House leading up to, during, and shortly after the insurrection at the nation's Captial on Jan. 6, 2021. What struck me was how powerful a calm, fact-based, and as-best-as-I-remember personal testimony can be. Likewise, personal testimony here at GSC by former followers who tell the truth about what happened to them while associated with The Way can and HAS helped people understand the dangers of cultic manipulation. And I KNOW it has helped steer some people away from The Way. Some of them write to me. Some of them, particularly some from my daughter's generation whose parents are still in denial about the abuses of VPW, etc., reach out to me after reading Undertow. Thank you, Greasespotters, for your support of Undertow over the years. I urge all of us to continue telling our stories in a manner that invites thoughtful consideration. It's up to us to inform and to heal former Way followers when we can. Let's lay off any distracting nonsense (that shows up in some threads here) and remember: every word matters.

Hello! I was in Ohio for most of my life, raised by my two parents who joined the way in the 70's. I was a somewhat enthusiastic "believer" until my early 20s and then I dove in - went Way Disciple after I graduated college then moved in with ministers in Syracuse, New York. I left everything behind and I was so worried that I wouldn't be okay without "God's protection." But I have to say, my life is improving. I have a master's degree, a great job, a great car, and will soon co-own a home. None of that would have been possible if I was still giving away 10%+ of my income and afraid of debt. I feel like I have a brighter future than the Way Royalty (as we jokingly called them in college) who were booted recently. I have transferrable skills, I can talk like a normal person in society, and I no longer have to hide "my" religious views from others. Imagine that.

As a grad of the 2nd Way Corps, I thought I'd pipe up and say a few words. It's no secret that I've rejected associating with The Way and have left its teachings in my rearview mirror. Nevertheless here's my opinion about what Vern should consider doing as the new Way president (although I'm not convinced he'll ever read this). Consider this, Vern: Many former Way Corps besides me have realized from personal experience that there is no "accuracy of The Word" that exists for anyone to "return to." In light of that, I ask: What is the purpose of The Way? This is just my opinion, but since The Way's "bedrock of biblical research" has been found to be full of holes, plagiarism, and Scriptural abuse, doesn't that sinking ship make the organization of The Way without a purpose? If I were Vern, as far as the organization goes, I'd disband it.

Or, for something completely different along these lines, there's a very compelling argument for doing away with bible study altogether in a "shocking" book called The End of Biblical Studies (gasp!) by Hector Avalos, PhD. Prometheus Books. 2007. Just sayin … there is an alternative viewpoint for those interested in questioning the value of continuing to hammer away at biblical texts in hopes of recreating "the original." Even if we did reach that goal, what would we have? A text that still contains contradictions (four different viewpoints in the 4 gospels), violence against "unbelievers," in the Hebrew Bible, condemnation of homosexuals, subjugation of women, etc. Just sayin … let's take a look at bibliolatry and get honest about that. Perhaps this is a topic for the Doctrinal thread. Sigh …

You know why I come here? To be judged by people who don't know who we are, why we're here, what motivates us. I love being called bitter by a total stranger making a blanket statement in a drive by post. Welcome to Greasespot, Your Honor.

Back when lcm drove off 80% of twi in 88-89 with his "line in the sand", a fellow with the screen-name of Cesar Salad said he thought the biggest problem with lcm was that he wasn't able to get humble enough to "wash the apostles' feet" and so he wasn't fit for ministry work, since it was for HIS OWN glory and not for Jesus. It's no different for any other alleged "leader" that vpw trained, or vpw's machine trained. They all want to be the top dog- so all of them are UNWORTHY to be ministers. All of them want to be SERVED and not to SERVE.

Hi Leah..........welcome to the Café. For those of you who grew up at hq and had parents in leadership positions, I can only imagine the hardships, scrutiny, challenges and fear that were embedded into your psyche at such a young age. As you distinguished astutely in an earlier post.....it sounds like you are well on your way to separating your "cult self" from your "authentic self." And further, you have now established proper boundary lines with your family and loved ones by openly and publically stating what is acceptable, and not acceptable, to you. Good for you! Keep claiming what is rightfully YOURS.......an "authentic self." Individual sovereignty........to think, explore, believe, live, challenge, and commit to the passions that burn within your soul. My wife and I exited twi nearly 21 years ago after, what I would term, six turbulent years as leadership in Oklahoma. Suffice it to say that I spent time with your parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, and some of your first cousins. Look how their lives have changed in the past 20-something years! Commitments changed. Perspectives altered. None of what they were, or weren't, committed to should hold sway to YOUR goals, passions or self-esteem. You have every right and reason to pursue this journey of self-exploration. And, from the sounds of things.....you've read some good books and, for years, have read threads here at GSC. Good for you. Go at the pace that fits your schedule. Most all of us have a past of *burdens, hurts and fears* that we are working thru or have overcome........hell, I went thru 10-days of deprogramming to fight my way back to my fiancé and then, dealt with years of being estranged from my parents/family. So, yeah......I can relate to the challenges one faces of self-authenticity and autonomy. Live on the sunrise side of the mountain......and greet the days that are before you. You are a brave woman and I commend you for it.

Welcome, Leah. About time!! You will get a lot of support here.

1. "Sadly, I cannot get this man to accept the notion that the Bible really is the word of God." Ok, let's start there. The Bible never calls itself the Word of God. That's part of the problem right there. The Bible speaks of the Word of God quite often, but it never has the self-awareness to declare itself to be that Word. Maybe, just maybe, you can be wrong about the Bible being the Word of God and still be a good Christian. 2. "I think he would like it to be..." Well, no one asked you what you think, did they? Maybe he has no preference one way or another and is just waiting for you to make a plausible case for your thesis. 3. "... but is overly obstinate and has an awful attitude towards God and his plan for man's redemption." A lot to unpack there. Has it occurred to you that maybe YOU're the one being "obstinate" with an "attitude" that won't budge no matter how many facts he presents to counter your preconceived notion that the Bible is the Word of God? Like, maybe YOU're the stubborn one, not him? Because he shows you the Bible, and you start making excuses. Oh, that's the Old Testament. God's different now. He's really kind and gentle. He did what he did before because he HAD to to fulfill the plan of redemption. Problem: The plan of redemption is only the plan of redemption because God wanted it that way. It didn't have to be. He could just accept an apology without shrugging his shoulders and saying oh well because someone found a particular fruit of a particular tree to yummy to pass up (He also could have put that tree ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET but instead put it right in front of two people who did not know good and evil; then said don't eat from that tree. Not exactly a strong case for omniscience. It's like I put a cookie on the table in front of my 7-year-old and said "Don't eat that," then walked out of the room. He's gonna eat the cookie. I'm not all knowing, and I know that). So your friend, I submit, is not stubborn. Rather, he's amused at the contortions you'll twist yourself into to deny what's obviously written. There IS not idiom of permission in the Bible. Bullinger, for what he's worth, appears to be the only one who makes an issue of it. It's hardly a scholarly consensus. The existence of other figures of speech does not verify the "idiom of permission" as something the Bible employs on a regular basis. It is, however, an extraordinarily convenient tool for believers to employ whenever their holy book shows God doing what no good God would ever do, even though the book is unambiguous about it being God who did it. But that's just the old testament. Unless, of course, you're holding back tithes from the apostles in Acts, which is New Testament. (Oh, but it doesn't say God did that. It was Satan -- even though the Bible doesn't say THAT either). The Bible is filled with examples of God saying he'll do something and then saying He did it. It doesn't say he allowed it to happen or he allowed Satan to do it. It says HE did it. Now, it COULD have said he allowed Satan to do it, very easily. Look at Job. Satan did those things. It says so. Yeah, he got God's permission, but it says that, clearly. There's no ambiguity, and there's no "this is how it works normally." A figure of speech is supposed to be a statement that is true in essence though not literally true. "It's raining cats and dogs" is a figure of speech. "This car can stop on a dime" is a figure of speech. A figure of speech is not supposed to be a way for you to get the Bible to say the opposite of what it clearly says just because what it clearly says is inconvenient for your theology. God ordered the execution of a man for picking up sticks on the sabbath. He didn't give man permission to kill the offending sabbath breaker. He gave man an order -- cast those stones! God didn't allow divorce. He prescribed it. He didn't allow Satan to kill all the firstborn of Egypt. He had it done. And he DID have a choice. When my kid offends me, I have a choice how to discipline him. You have no idea how many times my discipline has stopped short of killing him because he did his chores between sunset on Friday night and Saturday night! So here's a thought. Bear with me: Maybe your friend isn't the stubborn one in this equation. Maybe he's not the one being inflexible. Maybe, just maybe, he's given this far more thought than you have.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with trauma, PTSD or the sting of being ripped off. I was about to agree with you until you leaned on the cult trope of "crying about decades old offenses". These offenses include rape, sir. They include taking my teenage friends for abortions financed by a handful of money dipped from a free bucket of cash called "tithes". Perhaps giving your entire childhood to a movement that turned out to be a fraud run by grifters and perverts, stings a little. "Crying" isn.t weakness. It is a basic human emotions. If you don't cry while you're recovering from a literal attack on everything you are and everything you have, then you're the one with the problem. And by the way, I don't see anyone "crying" in the replies to your post. I see people who learned the hard way and are trying to warn you that these offenses, not all of which are "decades" old, hurt people. People still haven't recovered. Some people died, MAN. Do you have any idea the number of people who have died as a direct result of trauma from this cult? I have friends who died in accidents and were blamed for not being holy enough. It's gross. There is also no rule that says if you're "crying" about the way's literal crimes, that means that we aren't walking with Jesus. That is a fallacy. Both things can be true. You can walk with Jesus and be wise to The Way's bullcrap. And when we meet a person who says they went to HQ and everyone was so nice, we want you to know that trusting in this group will deceive you and you might not even know it's happening. If you want to stick your hand on the burner to see if fire is really hot, go ahead. You've been warned. But don't pretend that we are all crying. We were trying to warn you.

Why I Wrote My Story -- Insanity on Steroids Five years ago, I put in writing here at GSC my experiences from those last ten years with The Way International. The reasons why I wrote my story were.....1) to send a warning to all those involved in twi and others considering taking classes from this cult, 2) an attempt to differentiate between Scripture-based Christians and twi's lockstep loyalty of servitude, and 3) to expose twi's incremental steps to overthrow one's will and consent. There are no fences with concertina wire to hold them prisoners, but there are very-real doctrines of fear and deception interlocking to prevent escape. Insanity on Steroids The strongholds of twi's prison are constantly praised and enforced by 1) Twi's MOG-doctrine and 2) the pfal class. In twi-mythology, wierwille was "the man of God" (to the whole world) who was called to teach the word like it hadn't been known since the first century. Secondly, the pfal class contained the essence of "the Word" that students were to stand on and never allow anyone to talk them out of it. Both elements, like rebar and concrete......keep twi's foundation "solid." No twi-imprisonment would be possible without the way corps.......like guards and walls, to keep the inmates from escaping into nearby communities, jobs/careers and family. Wierwille devised the corps program knowing that his (stolen) pfal class was not enough to keep people involved.....enforcers would be needed to keep them marching forward. Why was Martindale chosen as the second President of The Way International? What did wierwille say was the reason for choosing him? I have often cited that wiewille's corps leaders were abandoning him as early as 1978. Thus, he began to write "personal" corps letters in an attempt to strengthen that corps household bond. It didn't work. More and more corps were waking up to the fact that this "lifetime of Christian service" was in reality a life of twi-servitude. And, underneath the surface.....many corps were making plans of their own. When wierwille died in 1985, the full measure of that seething pot came to a boil. Let the splintering begin. Martindale was chosen to lead twi, according to wierwille.....because he ALWAYS OBEYED. Full stop. Period. Wierwille gave no other explanation......and THAT should have sent chills down our spines in 1981. According to vpw, martindale wouldn't ask how high he was to jump, he just jumped. Always. That was the criteria for being chosen as the cult's ..... twi's next president. · Geer took measures to undermine and sabotage twi's trustees. · Martindale seemed to actually believe he was the new "man of God." · Don and Howard wanted to keep the trains (and money) rolling in. · Rosalie (and Donna) were cunningly planning a coup. · John Lynn and others saw opportunities to start splinter groups. With Geer's paper, The Passing of a Patriarch, it is quite easy to see the bold strokes of a power-grab. Wierwille's death caused a flurry of activity and now, Martindale's peers were not going to accept his leadership as Chief Bottle Washer. Tumultuous times ensued and an euphemism "the fog years" was inserted to describe those ugly, back-stabbing years. No matter which leader or ex-leader you chose to associate with......they ALL had the baggage of cult-doctrine. Corps leaders, all of them, had gone thru an indoctrination program. Perhaps, the best choice would have been to keep one's distance for at least 10 years and see where the chips fall. I did not make that smart choice. I chose to stay involved with twi......and hence, those 10 years seeing Insanity on Steroids. Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. With hindsight 20/20.....all of us here at GSC know now each choice involving Corps Leadership or Ex-Corps Leadership was fraught with error. Some of us chose to stand with martindale. Some chose geer. Some chose lynn. Some went back to a local church. Some chose to be left alone (smart choice). Thankfully, I only stayed until 1998. Other corps, and many corps coordinators (Moynihans, Forts, Horneys, Magnellis)......stayed until 2016/2017. Another 18 years being micro-managed by Rosalie Fox Rivenbark!!! And, one of the things that I find so amazing is that NOT ONE OF THESE CORPS LEADERS (cough, cough) have come clean. They STILL actively follow the path of wierwille-doctrine giving (subtle) allegiance to wierwille and his plagiarized teachings. With that in mind.....it makes it all the more important that our stories are out there!!! Splinter leaders are no different that their mother-cult. Same indoctrination path to idolatry. · How many have heard our warnings and changed course? · Lives, marriages, families, and careers have gained stronger footing. · Body blows have been given to twi and splinter groups. · Possibly, hundreds of thousands abs (millions?) have alluded twi's grasp. · Even 100s of indoctrinated corps have bailed in the past 15 years. · GreaseSpot Cafe continues to ROCK.....woohoo!!! Five years later, all the aspects of my life are better. Actually, pretty damn good (knock on wood). My critical thinking skills have skyrocketed and I spot manipulation and bullschit a mile away. I can't imagine what my life would be like had I not taken that challenging LEAP TO FREEDOM. Nor, can I imagine the hurt, guilt, and limitations that it would have imposed on our kids. Thank God for the scales falling from my eyes. Cults herd people into a chasm of dependency......mentally, physically, socially, and financially. They prey on your weakness and close the gates to your escape. Sure, you're around other "like-minded" sheep/cattle.....but are you being prepared for the slaughterhouses? Cults thrive on dependency and silence. Subjugating and institutionalizing people are their hallmarks of oppression. Those corps leaders who remain silent are complicit in the evil. So, keep telling your stories. .

Great atticle defining a cult https://findingmyway12.substack.com/p/waityou-grew-up-in-a-cult

It does seem evident that the sinner's REPENTANCE is a necessary part of the equation. We forgive IF HE REPENTS. If he continues in sin and demands forgiveness regardless, that's nothing at all like we are instructed to do, and we don't have to do it. We are, however, to be wary around anyone who would demand it, or even ask it, for that matter. Now, for those who would SINCERELY wonder about someone trespassing AND REPENTING all day (7 times), I would point out that HYPERBOLE is a legitimate figure of speech people use all the time in English, and others understand them all the time. It's possible to misunderstand hyperbole- as it's possible to misunderstand ALL communications- but it's a lot more common if someone's TRYING to misunderstand it. [/b] [/b] Example of misunderstanding clear communication: William Shatner: " I’ve spoken to many of you, and some of you have traveled… y’know… hundreds of miles to be here, I’d just like to say… GET A LIFE, will you people? I mean, for crying out loud, it’s just a TV show! I mean, look at you, look at the way you’re dressed! You’ve turned an enjoyable little job, that I did as a lark for a few years, into a COLOSSAL WASTE OF TIME! It's just a TV show!" Fan: "Are you saying we should pay more attention to the movies?"

The sound of irony is deafening.

Don't really know where else to put this story... Move if needed. Well, taking a deep breath, and sharing here a brief history of the sexual abuse I experienced in what I had thought was FINALLY a place I could be cared about and where I could escape the "mental hospital" and recover from the breakdown I was experiencing in Jan '74. At the time was a Baptist folk-song-loving hippie, abusively married, VISTA-volunteering-in-very-racist-very-rural-southern-VA as a college graduate from New England. Starting in the Family Camp where I took PFAL as a brand new believer in NY that summer, a series of sexual encounters gradually began; I had been raped twice, as a 12 year old and on my honey moon night, but had kind of buried the memories, so was particularly vulnerable. At the CF&S Family Camp in OH three weeks later, my boundaries were further broken by the class, altho I was healed of some of the bondage and trauma surrounding sex. However, the pendulum was set to swing into the license-to-sin culture of the way that has been brought to light here and other places. Guess my path was pretty predictable- it involved being sexually abused by two young leaders and then engaging in sex with believer bros, then two guys I was "witnessing" to, etc. There were other incidents that were not (what's a cool way to say full-on intercourse?) Was invited on the motor coach corpse week '80; vpw dropped his pants, but I was again in mental distress after my interim year, and he ended up talking about my next year's assignment as we cuddled, thank You GOD! So from the Advanced Class '79 (July?) to the summer of my final WOW year in '83, I had 10 full sexual encounters/ relationships along with other activity that the culture sanctioned. (Was too "out of it" to protect with safe sex precautions, but my female system had shut down either due to the running, all the birth control pills in traveling hippie times, or the traumas, so there you had that...) When I finally kind of realized that I was becoming an abuser, I said Enough! These are my brothers and I am their sister, and this is wrong. I mentioned in another post how I learned that sexual abuse was A-OK with vpw et al; and of course along with it came the message that women were less than, that it was fine for men to help themselves to the young women, etc. 1 CORINTHIANS 7:1 WAS TAUGHT IN CF&S, YET. . . . . What's new?? A counselor labeled the way as misogynistic... Guess so?! Could of course, talk about how the way contributed to very good things in my life like meeting my future h, having my children with him, making wonderful friends, receiving some deliverance, etc. BUT! I am in full-time trauma recovery from many things, among them the cult aspects of the way and the sexual abuse. All for now I think... Blessings to all!

I recall VPW saying something to the affect that the bible was not written for unbelievers, agnostics, or god rejectors. Assuming no one is born with a knowledge of god, then somewhere during their development, they decided to believe in a god or gods. I was in that boat myself. Being born into a Catholic family, religion was crammed down my throat from a very young age. I hated all the rules of having to eat this, pray in a certain position, recognize certain days, confess my sins to a man behind a screen, blah, blah, blah. So I decided to reject it but still held the belief there was a god. Sometime later, as I was eating lunch in a resturant, a guy sat next to me and began to tell me about a god that was completely different than the Catholic god. This random meeting began a 20 sum year association with TWI. At first TWI filled me with peace and tranquility, but then realized they too had crazy rules that must be obeyed. And not adhering to them would force god to remove his hedge of protection from me. So I checked other religions out, but found they all had some hook, that when swallowed, forced me to recognize some aspect of god that made no sense. This got me to reason that if each religion had completely different requirements to satisfy god, which one was right? Then I threw in different faiths, which didn’t even worship the same god, and scratched my head in confusion. Then I came to the conclusion that none had any idea of what they were talking about, as there are thousands of different Christian religions alone, not including all the other faiths. Which one worships the one true god? Impossible to determine. So my logical conclusion was there is no god. I had attempted to reason through mounds of different dogmas to find god, but all it all brought was confusion. Now my mind is cleared. I do not have to choose one god over the other. Peace and tranquility.

Keying off of Nathan_Jr's post from the Absent Christ? thread. I wanted to hash this one out for a few minutes from my own experiences. Ok, rewind back to 1996 and I was a tough young thug running the streets of NYC. Completely out of control and rife with alcoholism and substance abuse problems, depression, anxiety and the like. And...I was witnessed to, yes proselytized by a band mate in a music group I played lead guitar in at the time. Well, anyway, I latched onto the Bible like it was my lifeline, and it was, and still is for that matter. So as I took the classes and climbed my way through the ranks of classes, various nametags, ministry programs, way corps and the like I really thought I was fine. Let me explain. I quit drinking for a period of time when I got involved with the way international. All my other psycho behaviors pretty much went out the window and I thought I was a "new man"....I applied the law of believing as taught by the way international, I directed my thoughts and energies into many positive directions....and I thought that handled all my previous problems because the way international said it was handled. All my answers were coming through the classes and such...or so I thought. Well, fast forward a good 12 years from 96 and I was hitting the exit from the way international as fast as I could get my behind out of new knoxville. I still thought I was fine...well...I wasnt...I had started drinking socially several years before 2008 and had a bottle firmly in hand in 2008. It was my friend, that bottle was my precious. Now, nit wits in TWI world like to think that all these problems returned to me because I had left the way ministry and violated my salt covenant because I left the way corps. Complete bull$h!t. So after dang near drinking myself to death I turned to Christ. No ministry, no outside direction from anyone. Just me and Jesus Christ. That was the beginning of my delieverance. Ive since come to realize that you can't take mental issues, substance abuse, alcoholism and the like and "confess them all away." No amount of positive thinking will do the trick. It wasnt until I did 16 weeks of counselling that I really began to understand what my problems were and how to unravel them. First off, I recognize that I am an alcoholic and as such have a medical condition where I cannot tolerate alcohol...period. Second off, I came to realize that I refused to accept loss. The law of believing would not allow me to accept loss because that would be a negative confesssion....and I was oh so strong in my believing ya know...except i wasnt..I digress... Thirdly, I had some serious depression and anxiety issues that never really left but were ignored and swept under the rug. Depression is a spirit according to the way international and I would never go for help in the way international because I didnt want to be labelled posessed.... Alright...a lot of words to get to my point: The way international is completely unqualified to help anyone with their hodge podge, cobbled together, unbiblical doctrines. You cant ignore major medical problems such as alcoholism or mental issues such as depression...or even psychotic anger, (which I am still prone to and am still fighting to over come) and call that deliverance. Yey that's exactly what the way international taught me to do. By turning to Christ I have slowly but surely been working out my own salvation with respect and awe! Im still a work in progress, but for the longest time in my life to date I am completely sober and have a really good life. The Lord has restored what the locust ate and then some. For anyone considering the way international as a solution to your problems....RUN! Run straight to God and Christ. Or just run to get the heck out of the way before real damage is done. My problems festered under a fake smile and 3 piece suit with multiple nametags. You cannot ignore your problems and confess them away. That's magickal thinking and it nearly cost me my life. By the way, God's Word has never returned void in my life. God had his hand on my life the entire time and eventually led me to safety and deliverance and complete peace. The way international gets NO credit. But God never left my side and my life is in the Lord's hands...quite literally.

********* One could write a thesis paper on twi's tactics. I always find it interesting to study wierwille and the timeline of twi's "explosion of growth" between the years 1973-1980. As wierwille accumulated power and control over others, his tactics were tethered to two uncompromising positions: 1) the pfal class, and 2) the way corps program. Claiming spiritual authority from God, wierwille was relentless in subjugating his followers with tactics that can easily be categorized as emotional, psychological and spiritual abuse. Some cult experts have labeled these tactics as total thought reform of the individual. Wierwille spent years traveling the highways teaching a plagiarized version of pfal [stolen from Bullinger] trying to convert and recruit church people to join his ministry. It wasn't until he locked into "Family Camps" and targeting the youth that gave his efforts momentum that unleashed the 1970's decade of control. In studying these tactics, one can easily identify wierwille's narcissistic methods that are found in cult leaders the world over. Established spiritual authority.... called of God to lead others to enlightened truths. Build a framework of stair-climbing steps to attain this enlightened status. Isolation of the group from the evil, outside world. Us versus them. Allow enablers into the inner-circle. These "yes-men" will protect your flank. Travel with an entourage. It exudes an elevated level of importance and authority. A series of purges. Keep people off-balance and second-guessing themselves. ....... Load the language with words and phrases that only insiders understand. Anyone who bucks authority must be shunned and/or purged. Public character assassinations of one's reputation is a powerful weapon. Labeling one "possessed" scares the bejesus out of followers. Keeps them in line. Move in herds. Keep people in groupthink mode, no room for individualism. ....... Demand the tithe/abs to be in fellowship with God. Keep followers in meager, dependent state. Establish an outreach program that is "reaching the world with God's Word." Again, load the language making God's Word synonymous with pfal. Build the perception that hq is *home* further breaking ties with parents, family. Annual pilgrimage to hq's rock of ages is demanded. Strengthening bond. ....... Establish a two-tier spiritual authority structure. Way Corps are your "spiritual leaders." It's all a ruse.....because corps are NOT leaders, they're sycophant followers (suck-ups). Corps were subjected Stockholm Syndrome tactics and abuse others when given chance. Everything in twi became a herd-fest. Major events were an exercise of control. As followers grew older, married, had kids and responsibilities....reality broke these tactics. ....... Wierwille was infuriated that "his kids" were abandoning ship....thus, the corps letters. By hiding behind a cover of false humility (woe is me).... vpw was a huckster to the end. Not once, did I ever see wierwille do a "God-revelation" act to benefit the people. Hiding in the shadows, he built his mystique with enablers who amplified "his greatness." In the light of day, wierwille was nothing more than a country-bum fraudster. ....... In the end, his "kingdom" came crashing to the ground for everyone to see. Rival opportunists have been trying to mimic his tactics ever since. Irony of ironies that Mrs. Wierwille's book exposes vp's serial plagiarism and tactics. Twi continues its grip on the millions that were accumulated in the 70s. Only by isolating itself can twi continue to lay claim to its self-referential "greatness." ....... Peace to all who find the exit doors.

Happy New Year, everyone, and may we all be freed of delusions in the coming year!

It's also interesting to see what happened and what did NOT happen. We all know that vpw never went to his congregation and confessed his sins against them. That would have been required after having violated their trust for so many years on so many occasions. Let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that vpw SECRETLY repented- that he said NOTHING to the congregation whom he'd owed many explanations and apologies, to say the least, but that he SECRETLY tried to get right with God Almighty. If he'd done that SECRETLY, he would have changed his heart- and that means he would have changed his ACTIONS. If the heart changes, the actions proceeding from the heart change. If he'd repented SECRETLY, there would have been comments in public teachings about seeking forgiveness from God, on repenting of sins, on stopping wrong actions and replacing them with right actions, and there would have been lots of discussions with him on-grounds here and there about that sort of thing, about how God forgives us and how we should ALL seek God's forgiveness about sins we've committed, about how we should ALL repent and go to God SECRETLY. All of that would have been happening ALL THE TIME. There would be comments in ALL the sermons, and slipping out in most or all of the conversations. If he'd actually repented in his heart, that's what the changes would have been that would have happened in his actions. There was no public repenting, no public discussion of repentance- as if it was a subject much on his mind- no derailing of casual discussions. The notion of repentance hadn't occurred to him until the very end, the final hours - when he actually started obsessing about it. Otherwise, there would have been hundreds of people who heard him say this sort of thing, and there were zero. So, he did not repent in his heart and change his heart- since that would have meant his actions would have changed, and we could have observed THAT very easily. According to Mike, what was vpw talking about in his final months and weeks? Supposedly, his last public teaching was "the Joy of Serving"- which was a teaching-long advertisement for pfal. It said that the finest thing to do was to serve, and the finest service was to serve people pfal, so go do it, and how, outside twi, there were almost no answers for people. Running commercials for product is NOT the same as repenting. https://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/topic/25213-power-for-abundant-living-today™/page/12/#comment-614631

I have to strongly disagree with you using words like "sledgehammer, hate, rumor mills and loving anti-idol worship" (not sure what it is but it sounds bad). Posters on GSC are not dealing with rainbows and cupcakes. They are dealing with some pretty dark and nasty sh* t which people have experienced because of their involvement with twi. Why won't you try, Mike, to walk in the shoes of those who post on GSC (many of whom are former corps members) or the shoes of Charlene Edge and Kristen Skedgell? If you did, you would better understand what people say on GSC. Disagreeing with them by saying things like "well, it wasn't so bad where I was" or "I never saw any of those things happen" just doesn't cut it. Sticking one's head in the sand is not a viable excuse for pleading ignorance about twi's behavior when the facts are readily available in Charlene and Kristen's books. If you don't want to understand and accept where we are coming from on GSC, at least do not call it hate. In my opinion, what you are seeing here is righteous anger, concern and pain - not hate. - Righteous anger not only because we know from experience what ungodly things happened in twi (especially those who were in the corps), but also because these things that oppose God continue to be covered up, whitewashed and denied by people who are still promoting twi. - Concern for twi people who have left or are still involved who are struggling with fear, grief, confusion, anger, self-doubt, suicidal thoughts...the list goes on and on. They are fighting for these believers who seriously need the validation, help and support that GSC gives. - Pain can be frustrating and upsetting when the hurt we feel in our own lives or in the lives of others should never have happened in the first place if the leaders had loved as Jesus loved.

We stand for those we respect, either voluntarily or compulsorily, according to social norms. We stand for the judge AND the jury in a courtroom. Soldiers stand at attention for their commanders. Does everyone stand for the President? (I'm thinking of the press corps - do journalists stand at a press conference when the President enters?) Here in the Deep South, some of us stand for women whenever they stand, and sit after they sit. I suspect standing for an authoritative figure goes back to emperors and kings, who were usually military leaders. Standing for self-proclaimed religious leaders has its tradition in the Catholic Church - not 1st century, not Paul (as much as he would have loved the attention). If one has to whine about others standing for him, one doesn't deserve the gesture of respect. Whining about such a thing tips one's hand to one's illegitimacy.

It was worse than that. We worked secular jobs that we couldn't focus on to earn money to pay for rent for a large enough home to hold church meetings in. Then on top of that we sent in tithes and offerings from those earnings. All so we could have the privilege to work a fulltime non paid job doing all the leg work so jackasses in high towers can act important and make policy. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why 95% of their leadership training graduates have fled for more rational endeavors.

We didn't see eye to eye. I wish his family well. I did like his sense of humor. And he led the charge against the way. Opened the eyes of many.

Been there and done that. It took me working at HQ and seeing the hypocrisy and everyday meanness for me to even consider looking online. And then a couple years after that before I realized God wasn't going to "life his protection" from my life if I did. The first time I read a thread from Greasespot was when I saw a print out of it on Rosalie's desk while I was cleaning. I wasn't prying, just dusting around things. But I do remember that moment very well. At that point I was already questioning the things I saw at HQ, and it struck me as odd that the woman in charge of the ministry was having someone print these things from a website that was so "devilish."

As for motives, since we have so much information on vpw's life and comments, we can trace a relatively clear path, at least in his own words. We know that vpw told the early corps that he considered business, music AND ministry before going into ministry. (Yes, looks like he got into all 3, I know.) So, going into ministry was a CAREER decision, not a calling. We know that he claimed that in his first 2 years in ministry, each of those years, he seriously considered giving up. So, going into ministry wasn't about CONVICTION, but about convenience. We know that he took "Homiletics" or preaching, as his area of study- not "Bible history" or anything rigorous- he picked probably the softest option. When he was into his second year as a preacher was when he first heard the idea that the Bible was the word of God and that he didn't believe it prior to that. (We don't know what he based the first year's sermons on, but it wasn't on the idea that the Bible was really special.) We also know that he inflated his credentials- like when he claimed he took ALL of Moody's correspondence courses, but according to their records, he never took ANY of their courses. (They have records of all completed courses, and there is NO record of him having turned in even one course.) We know that, around 1970 or shortly thereafter, vpw began claiming he heard from God Almighty back in 1942, in a promise that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. We know that, according to him, his first thought when he supposedly heard that was that EVERYONE WOULD LISTEN TO HIM if that was the case. We also know that he's cited snowstorms that didn't exist to punctuate events he later claimed were important. In 1953, he went to a convention where he met JE Stiles and learned from him, later plagiarizing the entire contents of Stiles' book on the Holy Spirit for his own publication. Of that day, he claimed the city was in a blizzard, and planes, trains AND buses were all out. (There wasn't even a single flake on the ground.) When confronted with this, he never claimed anyone was mistaken- instead he claimed that angels answered the phones at the bus depot, etc and lied to him each time. All of that says quite a bit about the man, and that's hardly everything.

Same pattern.........always. Rivals wait for opportunistic time Head Minister passes away or retires When not promoted to big chair....plots strategy Abides time to "break away" and be in charge Find chinks in their armor/doctrine Isolate his splinter group from "wrong doctrine" Be sure that support ($$$) is firmly in place Behold.......another offshoot grows in the midst Nothing new under the sun...... Heck.....wierwille's "thriving ministry" only lasted 12 years (1970-1982) Then, he retired......and the infighting started.

I’m so !$#%ing proud of you Leah. You’ll find your freedom in unconditional self love. Keep going sister, you are not alone.

Those who intentionally hide and dismiss wierwille's plagiarism, research foibles, and sexual predation AND have made it their business to lord over others.........THOSE SPLINTER GROUPS are worse! At the starting gate of splintering from twi, they are hypocrites before God and man.

Questions That Should Be Answered By R&R Leaders: Now that you guys are no longer with twi........are you, as described by wierwille, "cop-outs?" Do you think that you are possessed with *deceiving spirits* because you are not meek to twi's board of directors? If you are characteristically mislabeled (misjudged) and slandered......what about all other corps/clergy before you? Was wierwille using bully-tactics against others who "abandoned" his authoritarian rule? Since you've walked away from those who "taught you the Word"......have you lost all those rewards at the bema? Now that you are labeled "mark and avoid"......has your understanding of that term changed? Wierwille died of cancer.......do you still teach, as wierwille did, that cancer is a devil spirit? What about the "law of believing".......wasn't it misconstrued by cherry-picking scriptures? Let's address plagiarism. Wierwille stole B.G. Leonard's class and taught it as his own, didn't he? Books, articles, and sermons were "lifted" along the way....with hardly a mention to Stiles, Bullinger, or others? And, the "Red Thread" teaching was Rev. Oral Roberts "The Fourth Man" teaching......wierwille simply tweaked it, right? How about we talk about the *holy spirit field*..........if this was such a cornerstone of wierwille's ministry (cough, cough) why has it been neglected for the past 30 years? Who ever notes, in present-day reality......the demonstration of the spirit of word of knowledge, word of wisdom or discerning of spirits? Heck, I sat in the BRC in 1981 when Dr. Wierwille vehemently stated that an 8th corps guy had a daimon spirit......and after stern confrontation and fuming, wierwille walked away from this guy. No spirit was cast out and the corps guy went back to his unit, graduated, and went on LEAD staff. Huh? What are you guys doing to correct the DOCTRINAL errors that wierwille taught? What are you guys doing to "heal the bruised and broken-hearted" of those who wierwille and martindale sexually abused? Why are all of you guys "teachers?"...... Doesn't anyone have the gift of Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist or a Pastor? Sheesh.....it reminds me of the saying, "Those that can't do....teach." I've got lots more questions..............but this is a good start. And, another thing........you guys REALLY need to pull your head out of this echo chamber of self-congratulations and cognitive dissonance. Go to church for a couple of months and learn from them. You guys sound boring as hell.

Hi Leah! Don’t you dare quit! You ARE on the right path. It’s right because YOU are choosing it. YOU are determining who YOU are! That is the single most difficult task of human development, and at the same time, the most rewarding and fulfilling. That’s why I said, “don’t you dare quit”. You will make it to your authentic YOU if you just keep on going. Damn the hurt, the pain, the fear, the shame, the guilt, and the weariness. Just keep on keepin’ on! According to the 8 stages of human development, the 4th One is “identity formation”. Usually, according to the data, it occurs between the ages of 20-32. It follows adolescence, (12-19), and it is THE critical stage of human development. Observe the usual activities people in the age range 20-32 are engaged in these days in our frenetic culture.....college, trade school, the military, all crucial development tools which help one to self-determine her/his occupation, basic philosophy of life, and accepting who you have decided to be. For most of us here, those were the very years we got involved with TWIt. The TWIt cult stunted our development at the most critical stage. Dictor paul’s psychiatric dysfunctions and perversions, along with the Nazi-like authoritarianism and militarism of his corpse program produced what I term, a forced adolescence upon all wayfers, because the way took over determining our identities with it’s cult indoctrination and a rigid military-like discipline in order to “be the best” according to what the cult determined was “best”, period. But, the incredible cognitive dissonance we all experienced between what wierwille said and what wierwille DID became too much for us to bear, eventually driving our “authentic” selves back to the surface from under the smothering mind control and extreme peer pressure from the cult, and, avouding a psychological breakdown, we summoned enough personal courage to get the hell out of Dodge and retake control of our own, authentic lives....lives WE choose and people WE choose to be with. That’s where the anxiety and depression become an issue. There is so much cognitive dissonance that it usually requires professional help from a licensed counselor in order to sort it all out. It is, unfortunately, a necessity for most, because we have no sense of ourselves outside the complete dominance of the cult in every part of our minds and bodies. Our personal human development was detoured by a destructive religious cult, but by the strength of will and reason, WE now get to determine who and what we are according to OUR standards, beliefs, and desires. This takes time and a bunch of getting used to, but the end of adaptation is FREEDOM, liberty, and confidence that you can do it again as often as necessary. As you can see, I too can ramble! LOL. But more importantly, I want to strongly encourage you to keep on going! YOU ARE on the right path for YOU. We’ve all been at multiple crossroads in our lives, and we are here to help, to listen, to encourage, to inspire, and to hug whenever you need help along your journey to self-actualization. A cool glass of water and a cold, juicy peach on a hot day, passed on to a fellow traveller with love, unspoken understanding, and a joyful smile to help you hang in there baby!! That’s the GSC. As you said, by the grace of God, you have a full life! A loving partner, 2 lovely babies, a good career doing something YOU love because YOU love it and trained for it. YOU did all that! YOU! And YOU will conquer the current difficulties with the help of others also traveling the freedom road to self-identification and rewarding fulfillment......you’ll see REAL fruit of the spirit in your life and you will be happy and at peace. Don’t you dare quit! We love YOU because of who and what YOU are. You belong. You are free to be you. Just do it! We’ll help in any way we can. Peace.

Well, I only feel comfortable speaking for myself, and I’m not so great. Working on it, though. I have a life that is full and that I’m really grateful for - two little girls, a husband (also a former Way kid), a career that I love in education. Now if I can work out really detaching the old way programming from my head, I’ll be all right...

Gimme the sermon I heard in church last Sunday, any time. I really think that many of these people at R&R started out with a desire to love God, but got sidetracked along the way, fell into the ego tramp, and now they're climbing the greasy pedestal. Mary likes to hang about and talk to people, especially newbies. Is that because it gives her the opportunity to show off her supposed knowledge? It'd be nice if one or some of them spoke about the six months or year or more that they had spent volunteering daily (or at least weekly) at a shelter for homeless people, or for battered wives, or helping drug addicts, prostitutes, child laborers, and such like. You know, the ones with no money and a hard attitude to life. The ones who call "do-gooder" hypocrisy for what it is. Some place these teachers get their hands dirty in the sh-t of life. Fab opportunities to see people really turn their lives around; it's a very slow process.

Thanks Grace, I haven't been around here much for a long time, and had never seen that link from Penworks (Thx, Penworks, BTW), but on all the other pretty current. I was at the reading of POP at corps week in '86. Have read portions since. My gawd, that poor man, look at the burden on him and how he really serves and shields the MOGFOT and how he tries so hard, and no matter what he just keeps trying, and the hurt and pain of OUR beloved MOGFOT, oh, I wish I had been there.....sob sniff tears.....NOT. I also know two fellas, 8th and 10th, who flew to Gartmore with another Rev back then to get an OK to go around the overturned eighteen wheel "Yuk" twig, or get instructions on what to do. They wanted to see Geer. These three were doing the run around on their higher ups at HQ. Another mutiny inside a mutiny like the little Russian dolls. The one where DWBH was confronting all of 'em seems like. They were going to wrest back this "thing" away from them, or do whatever had to be done, and get it back on track. And, it would have been just as awful. Firstly, DWBH would have had to confront at least one of them, too. That was a sprout of the first offshoot...it died. Asked my old Bro' in person 3 years ago, "Why did you go?" "To find out how to save the minus-try." Said his plan had always been a "career" in the minus-try. He had climbed up to Limb Coor. by '85. "So, what did he tell you? Anything? Or, did he just sorta' look at you with that psychzoid I'm getting revelation don't mess with me kinda' look?" Hardly nothing, he says....a whole week! Hope they were Scotch drinkers! Hope it wasn't raining on your parade there in sunny Scotland! Honestly? It's really kinda' super hard to see miracles and have joy and love and those things without the Holy Spirit, who, best guess, had to grievingly depart from Twit, if it ever was really there much at all because of the corruption and sin. But, to me, most especially, the Holy Spirit had to leave because of the denial of Who Jesus really is...the Christ...the Logos in Person! Not a Book. Found in That Book...not the Book. Knows my name, every hair counted, loves me as the Good Shepherd that He is, Was, Always shall be. Mine. His. He's spoken of in the banned books section of the Twit archives: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That's where I met Him before the way. He's still there. And, it seems, from what I've read, it didn't take long after the first coups of Heefner and Doop (not quite my time yet) for the fabric to begin to fray. Anyway, Grace, thank you. Boy, I sailed away on that one.