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Are any of the former "Hurters" here at GSC?

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Thank you very much Waysider!

It's been a while and I think that I will read it again.

IMO it makes it very plain that Wierwille completely blew it when it comes to God's heart for the Jews too. A great read.

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The story about Corrie Ten Boom and her forgiveness of the Nazi is a wonderful story, thank you for reminding me of it.

The essence is, he sought her out and begged for forgiveness.

If people do not seek you out and don't expect forgiveness, or expect it but never show repentance or offer a genuine apology ... that's something different.

This morning I was reading the story of the forgiving father/prodigal son. Son had made up his mind to grovel and not seek any of his former glory or status. He had humbled himself, so he was exalted.

There are enough threads about forgiveness here at the Cafe to know that this is an issue for a lot of people.

If there are former "hurters" here and they are willing to humble themselves, it's appropriate to forgive and move on. Though the urge might be to give them a face melting back or recount the misery they caused. Think it'd be good to see them demonstrate some true humility, though. And let's see some compassion from them, too.

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It seems to me that in TWI, leadership apologies were simply another form of controlling and/or managing people. I saw it in my splinter group in a real big way and it gives me something to think about, like how did I ever believe them in the first place?

But when an organization is founded by a serial sexual abuser it seems that humbly seeking forgiveness can only be a lost part of what most people consider normal life.

I remember Wierwille accusing people of trying to convict him of sin, and saying that the Lord would judge. This now seems as a method of handling people and the situation in a heartless and cruel way in order to be able to keep his sick, nasty, cruel, and GODLESS lifestyle going.

It heartens me greatly to hear Ralph Dubovsky say what he had to say. It heartens me greatly to hear of a woman like the ex-Mrs. John Lynn trying to help abuse victims. But these type of honest and humble things are clearly the exception from the ranks of TWI leadership and not the standard.

But for what it's worth, I believe that the Lord will judge like Wierwille said. I wonder how the Lord will give him justice for all of his sociopathic manipulations? It surely will not be pretty.

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Reality is that TWI made us all "hurters" even the lowliest leaflet in the twig hurt someone else. Think of those that were shunned for not ABSing enough, not believing enough, not being meek enough.

How many times did we not do a kindness to someone else because leadership told you that they "needed to rely on their own believing"? ?

I long ago stopped looking for apologies from others no matter how deep the wrong--

Those who know my story know the "Cost of TWI" in my life.

I can ultimately do 2 things

I can apologize to those I've wronged and become a better person

I can ask God not to hold the wrongs done me against the responsible persons at the judgement. When Jesus Christ was dying on the cross he never said "I forgive" he said "Father forgive".

Ultimately it is the judgement of God that matters. To spare those who have wronged you that judgement heals your soul-- the healing of their soul is up to them.

We as humans have no way of knowing what goes through others hearts in the dark of night.

Is it wrong to feel hurt and pain? -- absolutely not-- the lost years and fallout in my life-- are a constant ache-- but life goes on-- expecting an apology from someone is a useless endeavor- leave them to their own thoughts-- far more painful than anything you can do to them.

And step forward in your life

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I think that can be helpful.. and at the same time, perhaps it helps to actually know what one is forgiving FOR. I've been given a blanket "love ya brother, I forgive you.." and next week, I'm the devil again.. some rather TRIVIAL statement I made fifteen years ago.. who knows, maybe it really DID hurt someone. But if we are going to forgive, let's at least be specific about what we're forgiving for..

something like.. "I forgive you for being a cowardly, blood sucking, defaming, abusive, womanizing scoundrel of a son of a leach.."

then we're getting somewhere at least..

:biglaugh:

that might be the LAST thing the perpetrator wants to hear.. a pretty honest description of his or her character..

but I think it does a little more.. I don't think people can really let go without counting the cost..

"I forgive you for offering me a short cut to success that turned out to be yet another spiritual, mental and physical dead end in life.."

then I went back to school..

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I wrote to Pa*l M*squeda and he didn't even remember me or how he destroyed us. I had heard that he made it a point to apologize to those he had hurt, but he didn't even pretend to care when he wrote me back. It was insulting.

He remembers. He's too much of a coward to admit it. A person wouldn't forget what they did to you. He's full of crap.

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I think if ex leaders really wanted to live right they would be living some type of atonement for the cruelty they did to the believers. I know atonement is not a TWI doctrine, but think there are many people who understand the concept, perhaps from childhood learning before their TWI years.

Sadly, I think TWI attracted a certain type of leader who does not have the self honesty or empathy. Some chunk of soul was missing.

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My first WOW Family Coordinator contacted me and apologized for his actions during our short tenure together (about 4 months of hell with an alcoholic). He was kicked off the WOW Field and out of the Corpse. He had an alcohol problem. I could tell his apology was because of one of the 12 steps. He didn't care for contact after his apology. Oh well....I had forgiven him long ago. I'm glad he got cleaned up and is living a better life.

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I see a lot of posts from people who have been hurt and abused by leadership in TWI.

What is your experience?

I don't know nuthin' about the leadership in TWI, only what I've read and heard.

But a former Wayfer chick put a hurt on me big-time. She was Way Corp and all that sh|t, but she wasn't acting in that capacity when she decided to f me over.

I can't help but think that I really was more important to her than that VPW scumbag. But, for 20+ years running, he has been winning.

Yeah, she apologized. So what? The scar's still there.

Whatever. I realize this is an old thread. And I wasn't even in TWI.

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I almost wonder if a certain minority of individuals who were attracted to the concept of being leaders weren't a bit on the sociopathic side. Certainly LCM, and probably VPW also. That narcissism, that "I'm the MOG and you must obey ME." What angers me most at myself is that these leaders took it upon themselves to basically replace Jesus Christ in our thinking, our actions, almost even our worship, and I was such a dumba@@ as to fall for it to an extent.

After we left and moved back to Ohio, we continued to receive SNS tapes. I actually played one of them, to hear it START OUT with the portentous announcement by LCM himself, as if it were revelation straight from the great white throne (I'm sure some of you remember how he used to do that): "IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO OBEY GOD WITHOUT FIRST OBEYING YOUR LEADERSHIP!"

A light went off in my tiny brain: I thought we were to obey God rather than men. And I finally realized that was the problem all along. These "Hurters" aka bustards were teaching there is no difference.

They tried to steal me from my heavenly Father, but HE got me back, and He's never letting go!

WG

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I know of one man that has posted on here, that has actively sought out those that he hurt. He has a conscience, many of the other leaders did not.

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Reality is that TWI made us all "hurters" even the lowliest leaflet in the twig hurt someone else. Think of those that were shunned for not ABSing enough, not believing enough, not being meek enough.

How many times did we not do a kindness to someone else because leadership told you that they "needed to rely on their own believing"? ?

I long ago stopped looking for apologies from others no matter how deep the wrong--

Those who know my story know the "Cost of TWI" in my life.

I can ultimately do 2 things

I can apologize to those I've wronged and become a better person

I can ask God not to hold the wrongs done me against the responsible persons at the judgement. When Jesus Christ was dying on the cross he never said "I forgive" he said "Father forgive".

Ultimately it is the judgement of God that matters. To spare those who have wronged you that judgement heals your soul-- the healing of their soul is up to them.

We as humans have no way of knowing what goes through others hearts in the dark of night.

Is it wrong to feel hurt and pain? -- absolutely not-- the lost years and fallout in my life-- are a constant ache-- but life goes on-- expecting an apology from someone is a useless endeavor- leave them to their own thoughts-- far more painful than anything you can do to them.

And step forward in your life

I can recall only one bad experience with anyone higher on the tree than "Twig Leader". Other than that, it was all "Joe Blow Believer" acting like they were more spiritual than others. I believe that thinking we were learning the Bible as it had not been taught since the first century made the average Wayfer arrogant. Anyone still think they are "tuned into God"? Realizing you were played for a fool is humbling isn't it?

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I believe that thinking we were learning the Bible as it had not been taught since the first century made the average Wayfer arrogant.

I think being arrogant about one's faith is true for most people who think they're right about their religion, that theirs is the only way to God.

While in TWI this arrogancy was especially heightened in me, I think, because I was a Corps grad. Although I tried to be kind and understanding, inside I felt I was more spiritual than other people because VPW had indoctrinated us Corps with the idea we were God's "green beret."

While trying not to be snooty, I know I looked down my "spiritual" nose at others...which isn't spiritual at all. I'm deeply sorry about that.

Pen

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Well, "arrogance" means: having or showing feelings of unwarranted importance out of overbearing pride.

Little wordy but makes sense.

Being right isn't arrogant. Knowing you're right isn't arrogant. Knowing someone else is wrong isn't arrogant. Weighting and sorting values isn't arrogant. Everyone of us does these things all the time. It's a normal part of our conscious capacity to be self aware and to literally know that "I" am not "you", or someone else. Human awareness isn't only instinctive, it's a developed capacity (or so I would argue) and consequently takes on many dimensions in itself.

I can't be arrogant with myself. Well, I guess I could but I probably wouldn't care as I know I'm smarter than me. (joke)

Arrogance as it seems we're discussing it here requires more than me, another. Who has that same innate and developed self awareness.

Therein lies the question, Watson! :biglaugh:

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I think being arrogant about one's faith is true for most people who think they're right about their religion, that theirs is the only way to God.

While in TWI this arrogancy was especially heightened in me, I think, because I was a Corps grad. Although I tried to be kind and understanding, inside I felt I was more spiritual than other people because VPW had indoctrinated us Corps with the idea we were God's "green beret."

While trying not to be snooty, I know I looked down my "spiritual" nose at others...which isn't spiritual at all. I'm deeply sorry about that.

Pen

I totally agree with you and can relate. I've come to the conclusion that whole "status" thing - with nametags, titles, relative importance of assignments, etc. is just a facade for ego and is what Paul talks about in Corinthians "comparing themselves among themselves". The ironic thing was that TWI has a whole culture built around doing just that while having that very verse in one of the Corps retemories!!!

I'm sorry I bought into that whole culture of arrogance, and if that attitude I adopted and showed hurt anyone. I first came to that realization with my flesh and blood earthly family. I had acted superior to them for years, but in reality they've lived far more of a genuine Christian life than I did in TWI.

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Well, when I was in I and another person became best friends. Neither had gone into the Corpse. But at a later date, she did. She came out a totally different person. I just was shocked at the change in her. She wasn't the person I knew before. On her interim year on the field she convinced me to move in with her, which I did. It was the year from Hell. I was actually kicked and hit...I was woke up during the middle of the night and humiliated in front of the others because I hadn't taught what she had told me to teach at fellowship....instead I taught on what I thought God wanted me to teach. I never argued with her or anything. All I could do was pray for her.and prayed..I prayed for her that one day she would change......

YEARS later, after we had both left TWI......she actually called me up and was in a mess....a total mess, unhappy, marriage a mess, she was depressed etc. And when I heard her voice, I had this anger come up in me because of the past, but after she told me all that stuff, I couldn't do anything but Help her. And that I did. We've been in touch since then frequently, me helping her. Her life has gotten better and she is doing well. There has never been a word about what happened when we were in TWI. And I kept waiting for some kind of an apology, but it never happened. And I was amazed that she could call me and never talk about it at all. Then one day, probably inspired by God, I thought, she doesn't even remember what happened.

So I quit waiting for an apology....I remember I had prayed and prayed for her that one day she would change.....and that is exactly what she has done. Changed. And I thank God for that.

I did get one apology from a leader of mine who had never done anything but love and encourage me.

And she called one day and asked, did I ever do anything to harm you or hurt you? I was amazed and said, absolutely not.

Other than her, I've not had any apologies from the ones who have done harm.

But, you know, I've had to forgive them because me not forgiving them hurts me, not them. I can't let them rent space in my head....it's not worth it!!!

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i have found in an instance or two that the apology comes with a little string attached -- i'm not sure how to explain this -- they are sorry as long as you realize they didn't personally do anything wrong -- or i'm sorry as long as you realize i'm still a wonderful leader or god man

like i said, it's hard to explain

people are what? people i guess

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i have found in an instance or two that the apology comes with a little string attached -- i'm not sure how to explain this -- they are sorry as long as you realize they didn't personally do anything wrong -- or i'm sorry as long as you realize i'm still a wonderful leader or god man

like i said, it's hard to explain

people are what? people i guess

Sorta like "I'll be sorry it you can prove I was wrong."?

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very intriguing.

so..

it seems that forgiveness, often is impossible. It comes with the little strings.. and do you REALLY forgive, or don't you..

as well as apologies.. do you REALLY offer it, or don't you..

humans are sooooo screwed up..

:biglaugh:

I had a dream about half a year ago..

it was about one character who changed a date on a check I had written.. he got his ten bucks. It cost me about $200 in court costs..

so what do I do, what do I say? "Rot in hell, you dirty sonsabitch.."

so interesting.. they sometimes come to us after they are dead..

"you ....ed me off fella.. but it was only a few dollars.." go in peace, friend..

christ..

I wonder who I owe.. other than student loans..

:biglaugh:

they will have to send a *special* emissary to collect from me.

no problem.. I'm SURE there's enough in my Social Security account to cover it..

it should at least cover three times the debt..

:biglaugh:

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where do we go from here..

I'm really trying not to leave debts in this existence..

own or owed..

maybe its asking too much..

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Within the last year I apologized to a couple who I had treated badly about 20 years ago. They had the sense to get out of TWI while I stayed in. I made some nasty comments to them and regretted it years later. I came across them on Facebook and apologized. Their response was to accept my apology and then berate me for my religious choices and political leanings and let me know that they wanted nothing to do with me because I had "rejected the Word".

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Look, --- I used to have to get these sheep form one pen - to a pasure about 4 Kilometers away. There were 9 of them, and if you did it right, they'd just follow you right along and behave. If you did it wrong, tying a rope around their necks and pulling wouldn't move them. Funny thing is - if you did it right,... you could probably walk them right off a cliff before they realized it,... they started trusting you and not watching where they were going. Oh really.... whose fault is that?

I dunno..........

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Ha! Kind of like mindless employees following you on the path of free health care..

:biglaugh:

God bless you dear friend..

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the last bastard I followed off a cliff..

said he wanted somebody who could do electronics..

loyal to da company..

I really didn't want that much..

he chose the "republican" way of life. He pulled the plug on reinvesting any kind of profits back into the company. In other words, despite promises.. he turned it into an impossible (i.e. dead end) job..

and the stupid bastard didn't have a clue why I chose to go back to school..

even the character here.. now gainfully employed in a way offshoot couldn't figure it..

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